Via John Robb
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/us/13physics.html?_r=1
QuoteThe delta of experience between attending a lecture and watching a video of a lecture? Nada. If anything, the video is better since you can rewind it, view it at the best vantage point (vs. at the back of a big lecture hall), and view it in a quiet relaxed space.
Video lectures (as most colleges are doing now) make it possible to get the best. A dozen of the best lecture series could serve to replace 99% of lectures now being given by less gifted teachers.
Interactive education, like what MIT is providing now, is highly computerized. Almost all of it could be done online.
The interactive process of learning/application via collaboration is something that is perfectly suited for virtual worlds. JIT information in combination with simulated real world application within a collaborative environment is something that is going on with WoW right now (on a massive scale).
OF course, this means that the system could become extremely productive. There's very little need to attend a school in person. Geographic decentralization is possible (at a huge reduction in expense). There's also little need for most of the teachers at the mid to upper levels of education. All measures of productivity would zoom through the roof.
All that needs to happen in this space is for a University with a solid brand to open it up virtual undergraduate education to a million or two students (at much less cost than presently). It would not only become the most profitable school in the world (even with massive reductions in fees), it would produce some of the most capable students in the system.
Unfortunately, the quality of entrepreneurship in academia is terrible.
While the premise is true, I've found that the best way for me to learn is to listen to the lecture, then immediately ask pointed questions, while the information is still buzzing around in my head. I suppose you could video chat after the lecture...
Yes, I always enjoyed my seminars/tutorials far more than the lectures, but as you say, there are ways of doing that quite easily, not least using IRC or other multiple person IM systems. Hell, you could probably even prevail upon certain companies to pay you if you make [insert IM system here] as the official approved program of the University system.
One of the myriad of programs I'm a part of here is one that is doing some online education. Currently we are running a parenting course in the state that offers information and material on parenting teenagers. We offer a discussion board to go along with the course and we encourage them to interact with the professor and each other after each lesson. It ends up being the same as a live class as you have the one or two people who actually engage the professor in discussion, and the rest of the class who don't care to or don't need to. I think for some people, not having that element of face-to-face and immediate discourse with the professor will be a minus. I know I personally would probably prefer to be in a class with a live professor. But it does help break down a big barrier for some to education which is living out in the middle of nowhere, 100s of miles from the nearest college or university.
The toughest aspect would be classes that use diagrams or other "write on the board" stuff.
Actually, you can get overhead projectors that have cameras built into them. At least, you could in the late 90s. I imagine there's some more advanced technology out there now for that sort of thing.
My old college now requires that students take at least four credits of "online classes". Many see it as a financial bandaid for an underfunded state school. Outsourcing lectures is cheaper than hiring professors for an already bloated student body.
Your brain has a lot of circuitry that is active when you're listening to a person. Circuits which aren't active when you're watching TV. Call me neophobic but I'll take the meat-based teacher.
My sons' school was completely revamped over the summer. While they still have white boards in a few classrooms and space for them in all, they have added what looks like the old drop down projector screens. The hook their laptops up and they do everything "on the board" from their laptops at their desk.
I have to think this is just another step towards the kids just plugging in for a few hours each day. I somehow doubt "virtual classrooms" will become the norm in the primary education level. There are so many other factors. A lot of kids in the US today wouldn't eat if they didn't go to school every day.
If they do this and take it down to the primary level, I shudder to think of the social skills these children will develop. It would be a world of trolls IRL!!
College though, eh well, it might open up a college education to those who otherwise couldn't afford it.
Video lectures seem pointless unless they are interactive. Mp3s of lectures are sufficient not only for me but for 99% of academia.
Except the deaf.
Quote from: Cramulus on January 13, 2009, 02:51:50 PM
Your brain has a lot of circuitry that is active when you're listening to a person. Circuits which aren't active when you're watching TV. Call me neophobic but I'll take the meat-based teacher.
That's a good point-- but I think what's being described here at MIT is an environment far more interactive than television-- maybe even more interactive than a traditional class. Trouble is, the vast majority of tech-enhanced or telelearning 'classrooms' that I've seen, read about, or heard about are either just using new tools for old purposes-- like using laptops to write on the board instead of chalk-- or are clunky attempts to transmit an essentially traditional classroom experience through the screen.
Quote from: Mask of the K on January 13, 2009, 03:02:10 PM
If they do this and take it down to the primary level, I shudder to think of the social skills these children will develop. It would be a world of trolls IRL!!
Actually, I have a friend who works as a residential counselor for behavioral special needs children who feels that immersive online learning environments, sort of like a moderated MUD, could be a hugely effective tool for teaching social skills to children who would otherwise be resistant-- because the environment is non-threatening, requires cooperation for success, and feels like (and is!) play, which is always a child's primary learning strategy. Again, though, that won't exist for years, now, if at all-- and since such a tool isn't nearly as profitable as recreational pursuits like MMORPGs, there's a good chance it never will.
I think there's a ton of potential involved here for teaching and learning-- but it won't have much real relevance until electronic education evolves it's own symbol-logic for communication, and it's own infrastructure and resources to make itself relevant.
I am extremely interested in brain function during online forum use... I mean, there's the reading, and also a level of interaction, and I wonder how active the brain is and whether there are parts that shut down.
Quote from: Nigel on January 13, 2009, 06:37:27 PM
I am extremely interested in brain function during online forum use... I mean, there's the reading, and also a level of interaction, and I wonder how active the brain is and whether there are parts that shut down.
I assume that you're aware of the Apple Talk board?
Listening to a lecture without being able to ask questions....might as well be reading a book.
I agree with Cram. I also call a "citation needed" on the "nada difference" in the OP, mostly because of this other circuitry. Afaik, learning happens better, the more senses are involved. Even though in a real classroom you usually can't touch, smell or taste the teacher, I believe that the mere idea of actually being in a room with a real person, does indeed activate more circuits than watching them on a screen, even while interacting with them via IM, audio or videochat.
Also, for me personally, it feels that the act of "just showing up" sort of primes your mind for commitment, even if you spend the hour not taking notes and half listening with a hungover head. I think with a video I would "zone out" completely much easier if my mind wasn't in a studying mood that day. With a real person in the room, I'm more inclined to pay sharper attention, possibly out of a social norm for politeness or perhaps some more basic primate programming.
Quote from: Kai on January 14, 2009, 12:03:31 AM
Listening to a lecture without being able to ask questions....might as well be reading a book.
This.
Quote from: LMNO on January 14, 2009, 02:04:15 PM
Quote from: Kai on January 14, 2009, 12:03:31 AM
Listening to a lecture without being able to ask questions....might as well be reading a book.
This.
Theres a reason I don't take classes over the internet. The reason is that learning is more than just rote information. Learning details takes interaction and connection with people who know all the little details, and learning what questions to ask to find out the details. Also, learning SKILLS (probably far more important) takes one on one interaction with people who have skills, and then loads of practice under their supervision. You really need direct interaction for the full impact.
Nothing is ever ever going to become more important in education than the direct interaction between teacher and student. NOTHING.
I enjoy video lectures quite a lot. The ones I've watched had nothing to do with my education though. Just stuff i downloaded out of curiosity for my own amusement. What i noticed was that i could concentrate better compared to real classroom. Was it mostly, because i was interested in the subject or just the lack of giggling,sneezing, paper scrunching and what ever noises normally cause distraction, i dont know. Best part is that you get to watch them on your own schedule, when you feel most capable to absorb information.
Quote from: Kai on January 14, 2009, 02:24:44 PM
Nothing is ever ever going to become more important in education than the direct interaction between teacher and student. NOTHING.
Except maybe for the student's personal investment and interest in the subject matter-- although, to be fair, a good teacher can do a lot to stimulate this.
You know, if people are just going to keep reading into the article that EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF EDUCATION IS GOING TO GET REPLACED BY ONE WAY VIDEOS, I'm pretty sure I've already lost interest in the thread.
Cain,
doesn't remember the part where there was no feedback or group sessions, only the suggestion you need not be physically present for them. In fact, Cain doesn't even remember anyone ruling out video conference style lectures.
OK, that was a little harsh. I apologize, I'm like, really, really wired right now, because its the only way I can keep my eyes opened.
Ha, CAIN :lulz:
If people only read the quote you provided and not the article, it's easy to see where the reactions came from.
Regarding the quote content, it seems like a scary perspective. Indeed, faulty as people are, teachers are what make or break a class, I feel. Also, systematizing everyone's input through selected videos is a way 1984 mind control nightmare thing.
What MIT is doing sounds totally cool. Smaller groups requires more accountability from the student and with the teachers/ assistants readily present, the material everyone is dealing with becomes much more workable.
It's going to be like anyting else, supply and demand.
As I eluded to earlier, the ability to take classes online is going to be a big win for people who are beset with significant barriers to higher education. If your nearest University is 200 miles away and you can't afford to relocate, having an option to take similar classes online is going to be a good thing. Obviously, compare to a live class, not the same. But compared to no class, it's a no-brainer.
Also, live classes can find ways to incorporate these technologies as well. It will be way cheaper to have a guest lecturer appear via video streaming from the internet as opposed to flying the guy/gal in, putting them up in a hotel, feeding them, etc., etc.,
Quote from: Kai on January 14, 2009, 12:03:31 AM
Listening to a lecture without being able to ask questions....might as well be reading a book.
Unless of course you happen to have horrible visual attentiveness <_<
Of course, some video lectures where looking at the screen is necessary put me to sleep, so it goes both ways.
While video lectures have the possibility of giving the best lectures, my experience with educational videos says this may not happen.
Quote from: Cain on January 14, 2009, 05:37:13 PM
You know, if people are just going to keep reading into the article that EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF EDUCATION IS GOING TO GET REPLACED BY ONE WAY VIDEOS, I'm pretty sure I've already lost interest in the thread.
Most online courses aren't very good at those. Again, that may be an exception rather than a rule as this unfolds.
Quote"There was a long tradition that what it meant to teach was to give a really well-prepared lecture," said Peter Dourmashkin, a senior lecturer in physics at M.I.T. and a strong proponent of the new method. "It was the students' job to figure it out."
The problem, say Dr. Dourmashkin and others in the department, is that a lot of students had trouble doing that. The failure rate for those lecture courses, even those taught by the most mesmerizing teachers, was typically 10 percent to 12 percent. Now, it has dropped to 4 percent.
This has also been my experience. The large lecture hall classes, with hundreds of students, do not lend themselves to the ultimate in academic performance. And actually, I think you see more disrespect for the speaker, more casual treatment of the subject matter, and a total disconnect between student and teacher.
So when you say you might as well be reading a book, I think the large lecture halls were like that as well. There were very few who had the balls to stand up and ask a question, and that was usually a grad student who was under the employ of the prof anyway. I've taught in those lecture halls, and it's hard to read anyone's expressions, catch questions in general, and for a subject that's as complex as physics, I think a smaller-lecture setting much more ideal.
Which, it seems, is what MIT is attempting to do, and with amazing results. I'm rather impressed with it, actually, and it seems they're not throwing personal interaction out with the bathwater but rather making it more accessible to all and a more useful tool in general.
I just want to add, one of the things I really like about my college is that the class sizes are relatively small (the largest I've had are ~100 students, ~30 is the norm). Unlike some universities my profs actually know who I am. Come to think about it, that may not be such a good thing.
No it's a good thing, really. I understand what you're saying, if you wanted to fuck with something, you'd rather be anonymous in the masses, but even if they know you, you can be smart enough to get away with a lot. And IMO the advantages of getting acquainted with the cooler profs definitely weighs up to that.
Sarcasm on the internet=fail
I do like it that I actually know them, I can't help but think that a large lecture hall might as well be a replaced with an hour-long video.