Dear America,
Yeah, I know...the last thing you want right now is some durn immigrant telling you about your country. Ok, I get it....move to Russia, right?
So let me frame it to you as a polite request. It's simply this:
Please, please, please stop using hyphenated nationalities/ethnicities.
You know the deal, 'Italian-American', 'Asian-American', 'Irish-American' etc. I'm not picking on any group in particular. I am, in fact suggesting that you all cut it out.
Why? I'll tell you why. Because no matter how you might like to think otherwise, Americans are not Europeans. Nor are they Africans or Asians or whatever else. Not better, not worse, but just different. And why can't you simply be content with that?
I've had the good fortune to live in and travel to/from different countries. I've had the privilege of meeting people from all over the world and from all manner of backgrounds & circumstances. Drunken bowling with Canadians, breakfasting with Israelis, sharing an elevator with the Japanese etc
So recently, I've returned from 10 days in Italy. Guess what? Americans who self-designate as 'Italian' are NOTHING LIKE ITALIAN PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY LIVE THERE.
I happened to be travelling with a man who is, from a bloodline point of view, purely Italian (whatever that actually means, especially when you read up on their history.) His parents and his grandparents were all from the Old Country. That counts for something, right? He's got an Italian sounding last name, even though he pronounces it in an Anglicized version. A shoe in?
No. In fact, he stood out like a sore thumb. Dressed like an American, spoke American-English and naturally interacted with everyone with American cultural expectations. Not a bad thing in itself, because the Italians dressed up in their skinnniest of jeans, spoke Italian and eyed us all through the (Gucci) colored glasses of their backgrounds.
The problem is this: CULTURE IS NOT GENETIC.
Why is this a problem? Well, I've seen more 'Italian Temper' bumperstickers than I ever wanted. I've heard the most asinine rationales for stupid behaviour that somehow is 'Irish'.
I think it's time that certain Americans stop identifying themselves with cliches, stereotypes and outright misrepresentations of cultures they know little or nothing about. It might be fun to glorify the 'Old Country' but you have to keep in mind that your ancestors LEFT the place and went somewhere else. That is where you are from.
Because what matters is who you are and where you are NOW. What's in your blood is a non-starter. If you do enough DNA testing and molecular archaeology, you know what you find? We're all bastard mongrels migrating all over the place for many many thousands of generations.
So please, America relax already. For better or worse, you have your own identity that is not any of the other country's. Let the Italians be Italians and get on with your own lives.
:mittens:
Beautiful!
That brought a tear to my Scottish-Canadian eye.
Quote from: Payne on January 13, 2009, 09:15:56 PM
That brought a tear to my Scottish-Canadian eye.
I knew you were going to say that. I'm 9/28ths gypsy and we have psychic powers.
IAWTP
Quote from: Mangrove on January 13, 2009, 09:17:22 PM
Quote from: Payne on January 13, 2009, 09:15:56 PM
That brought a tear to my Scottish-Canadian eye.
I knew you were going to say that. I'm 9/28ths gypsy and we have psychic powers.
I agree with what you said 100%. And while writing that line, I considered that I've never actually seen someone describe themselves as "Scottish-Canadian" before. The best I could think of was "French-Canadian", which (I think) usually doesn't try to ascribe the person concerned with the stereotypes of either distinct culture.
It really appears to me to be more of an "American" thing.
Also, predictability for the win.
I'm a French-Canadian-American so pfffbbllllll!!!
Good stuff Mang. :mittens:
Quote from: Payne on January 13, 2009, 09:21:41 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on January 13, 2009, 09:17:22 PM
Quote from: Payne on January 13, 2009, 09:15:56 PM
That brought a tear to my Scottish-Canadian eye.
I knew you were going to say that. I'm 9/28ths gypsy and we have psychic powers.
I agree with what you said 100%. And while writing that line, I considered that I've never actually seen someone describe themselves as "Scottish-Canadian" before. The best I could think of was "French-Canadian", which (I think) usually doesn't try to ascribe the person concerned with the stereotypes of either distinct culture.
It really appears to me to be more of an "American" thing.
Also, predictability for the win.
I was born in Canada. Canadian, right? But my parents are British. Wait! My father's father was born in Canada....to British parents. Hold on...my parents took Canadian citizenship! So legally, I'm Canadian!
I have a UK passport.
I have a US greencard.
All the time I lived in Canada, I was Canadian and it never occurred to me much that my parents were British. We knew people from all over the place, so it wasn't an issue.
Then we moved to the UK in 1982 and I had to endure complete retardation by various numbskulls who didn't know anything about either America or Canada and repeatedly confused the two.
20+ years later, all the Americans I met here are look 'Oohh..that's so cool...he's British!' I don't understand the fetish and I've yet to meet a single Yank who got excited about meeting someone from Canada.
I periodically visit the UK. They all think I'm American but the Canadians also think I'm British. The Italians think I'm American but want to know why I've got an E.U. passport.
As such, patriotism, loyality to a country and identification with any nation is baffling to me. I was born on a patch of land, lived on different patches of land. As I moved from one patch of land to another, my accent changed. If you can imagine what Canadian, American & British sounds like mashed together, then you know what my voice is like.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 13, 2009, 09:28:17 PM
I'm a French-Canadian-American so pfffbbllllll!!!
Good stuff Mang. :mittens:
Just like Jack Kerouac!
This american-american agrees completely wit' teh thread :mrgreen:.
Quote from: Mangrove on January 13, 2009, 09:32:02 PM
Quote from: Payne on January 13, 2009, 09:21:41 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on January 13, 2009, 09:17:22 PM
Quote from: Payne on January 13, 2009, 09:15:56 PM
That brought a tear to my Scottish-Canadian eye.
I knew you were going to say that. I'm 9/28ths gypsy and we have psychic powers.
I agree with what you said 100%. And while writing that line, I considered that I've never actually seen someone describe themselves as "Scottish-Canadian" before. The best I could think of was "French-Canadian", which (I think) usually doesn't try to ascribe the person concerned with the stereotypes of either distinct culture.
It really appears to me to be more of an "American" thing.
Also, predictability for the win.
I was born in Canada. Canadian, right? But my parents are British. Wait! My father's father was born in Canada....to British parents. Hold on...my parents took Canadian citizenship! So legally, I'm Canadian!
I have a UK passport.
I have a US greencard.
All the time I lived in Canada, I was Canadian and it never occurred to me much that my parents were British. We knew people from all over the place, so it wasn't an issue.
Then we moved to the UK in 1982 and I had to endure complete retardation by various numbskulls who didn't know anything about either America or Canada and repeatedly confused the two.
20+ years later, all the Americans I met here are look 'Oohh..that's so cool...he's British!' I don't understand the fetish and I've yet to meet a single Yank who got excited about meeting someone from Canada.
I periodically visit the UK. They all think I'm American but the Canadians also think I'm British. The Italians think I'm American but want to know why I've got an E.U. passport.
As such, patriotism, loyality to a country and identification with any nation is baffling to me. I was born on a patch of land, lived on different patches of land. As I moved from one patch of land to another, my accent changed. If you can imagine what Canadian, American & British sounds like mashed together, then you know what my voice is like.
The entire saga sounds remarkably similar to my own tale.
Quote from: Payne on January 13, 2009, 09:21:41 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on January 13, 2009, 09:17:22 PM
Quote from: Payne on January 13, 2009, 09:15:56 PM
That brought a tear to my Scottish-Canadian eye.
I knew you were going to say that. I'm 9/28ths gypsy and we have psychic powers.
I agree with what you said 100%. And while writing that line, I considered that I've never actually seen someone describe themselves as "Scottish-Canadian" before. The best I could think of was "French-Canadian", which (I think) usually doesn't try to ascribe the person concerned with the stereotypes of either distinct culture.
It really appears to me to be more of an "American" thing.
Also, predictability for the win.
I think it is a pretty unique thing to America. We have no real historical culture, our entire nation is made up of immigrants that got here at wildly different times, under wildly different circumstances. Some groups were immediately accepted, others spent decades being treated like outsiders with only their immigrant peers to survive with.
I remember when I was younger how it seemed weird to have no history. At that point, I didn't even know much about my own family and how we got here/how long we've been here. I had European friends that had generational touchstones tying them to their history and their genealogy. Whereas, from my perspective, I was cut off, drifting alone in the timeline... at best a few anchors that go back a couple generations and involve coal mines and potteries. Not exactly something to identify yourself through.
I have, since then, discarded this silly line of thought... but I still see why a lot of people have the issues they do. I mean, if you're "Italian American" you can tie yourself to 2000 years of history and get some good/some bad... if you're American, on the other hand, you have 200 years of history and most of it we generally would prefer not to talk about.
People say America doesn't have a history, it does....it's just not very long.
The US is still a 'work in progress' and it has the distinct disadvantage of being in the glare of the rest of the world as it develops. Though we could say the same about Australia. So the question is for the Aussies, do people 'down-under' insist on identifying themselves as 'Greek-Australian', 'Irish-Australian' etc?
I've heard people say things like:
"My ancestors left _______ because they were so poor and had to go to America."
Which, I'm sure is true in plenty of cases, but it got me thinking. Plenty of poor people didn't leave country X and they survived and had offspring over many generations. If that weren't the case, Ireland would be empty. Not everyone left.
But what I noticed about being in Italy is that I'm not 100% convinced that it was always poverty that prompted the move. I think attitude played a role. While not wishing to make sweeping generalizations or disparage of people from Southern Italy - what I did see were certain attitudes (cultural not genetic) that, while commonplace in their circles, were utterly offensive and baffling to typical American tastes. It made me think that maybe it was great Uncle Giuseppe saying "I'm tired of this anachronistic BS" that resulted in people looking to move on.
People ask me all the time what my heritage is, it really seems to be an important issue with some people, and these people tend to get very irritated when I give them a hard time about it.
ME: "I'm from here."
THEM: "What is your background?"
ME: "I prefer a forest usually, sometimes a sunset."
THEM: "But where is your family from?"
ME: "They live about two hours south east of here."
THEM: "But where are your roots from?"
ME: "Roots. The store."
THEM: "AAAAAUUUUGHHHHH!"
My family is from Scotland, and some of them have accents still, but I am most certainly NOT Scottish. Although I do look Scottish... for better or worse.
Quote from: Mangrove on January 13, 2009, 09:45:43 PMI did see were certain attitudes (cultural not genetic) that, while commonplace in their circles, were utterly offensive and baffling to typical American tastes.
Oooooooh - like
what?
I was going to mention the myth of "America not having a history", largely because I find it so fascinating that America seems to have a hang-up over it.
How much do you need?
If you have 10 times as much "history", you'd only have so much more to feel bad about if you're inclined to feel bad about your country's/culture's/whatever history.
Trying to patch it up by appropriating your identity from another Country/Culture is never going to work, and will likely result in fail at some point.
Quote from: BAWHEED on January 13, 2009, 09:47:37 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on January 13, 2009, 09:45:43 PMI did see were certain attitudes (cultural not genetic) that, while commonplace in their circles, were utterly offensive and baffling to typical American tastes.
Oooooooh - like what?
Well, there was more than a little too much of:
Wife! Do this! Iron my shirt! Get dinner! Become pregnant!!
And there was a lot of that about. Mrs Mang's ex husband was brought up in that environment. It's also why Mrs Mang' divorced him. Mrs Mang's daughter married a guy from a Southern Italian family who are kind of like that. His brother's girlfriend (a boyish looking waif) is only 20 years old and everything about her screams: I WANT TO BE A DOMINATED UNFULFILLED HOUSEWIFE...PLEASE ORDER ME AROUND!!
I'm guessing she doesn't know that her predecessor got beat up by said brother.
During the trip, mang-daughter's husband flipped out and was an awkward, moody bastard for a whole day. Mrs Mang' practically died inside as she feared she was watching history repeat itself right in front of her eyes. Fortunately, he snapped out of it, apologized and is now acutely aware that it was Southern Italian attitudes that caused him to leave home & move north when he was 18.
The general vibe there (we were in Caserta, somewhat above Naples) was that as long as you were dressed up to the nines, then everything else didn't matter. Be thin, be well dressed and everything will work out ok. Never mind the piles of garbage in the streets, the mass corruption of organized crime, the African hookers lining the roads in and out of town.....just be
fabulous.The 'wedding traditions' were an exercise is bureaucracy & pointlessness...not to mention expensive. You can't wear this, you can't do that, people will expect this. A great deal of what is done is done for show. Be seen to be spending a lot of money. The atmosphere we experienced was one of superficiality and being judgemental.
I'm not saying that is all of Southern Italy or it's residents. But mang-daughter has been there for 8 years and explained that it was fairly 'representative'. The Northern part of the country seems more relax and less hidebound.
Quote from: Payne on January 13, 2009, 09:50:46 PM
I was going to mention the myth of "America not having a history", largely because I find it so fascinating that America seems to have a hang-up over it.
How much do you need?
If you have 10 times as much "history", you'd only have so much more to feel bad about if you're inclined to feel bad about your country's/culture's/whatever history.
Trying to patch it up by appropriating your identity from another Country/Culture is never going to work, and will likely result in fail at some point.
Good point. How much is enough?
Plus, having a long history is one thing, learning from it and doing some productive is something else altogether.
I think there has to be enough history to tie everyone together into some common identity. As of right now, many Americans don't seem to have that for whatever bizarre psychological reason. I notice that there seems to be a correlation between the way a immigrant group was treated and their assimilation. I also note that the more self-conscious/ less self-confident a person tends to be, the more often they identify with the oppressed ethnic group. "I'm 1/8 Native American/Irish/Scottish/Welsh/etc" means that your 7/8 Something Else. I find it common that either they don't know what the something else is, or that the something else is perceived as bland (English, Welsh, German etc).
The truth is, Americans mix about like clay and gravel. We loosely stick together, but its a nation of people that have at least two or three wildly different views about most of reality, wildly different ethnic backgrounds that they grew up with (Grandma's Accent and Grandpa's Haggis) and wildly different ways that the rest of America got presented to them as kids (your poor great grandpa had to live in a Ghetto and there were signs everywhere that said "No Irish Need Apply").
I mean, the biggest common thread among many Americans might be that they're likely identified with or identify as part of a subculture that considers itself as 'not quite' the same as the rest of America. In short we're a Nation full of Us vs Them. What history we do share, we don't want.
(Note that this post is a generalized commentary on one view of American culture; don't be too picky or I go back to epriming everything ;-) )
Yeah, I think that knowing one's family's heritage is a good thing, but if you were born in America you're American. People who are all "Yay I'm Irish!" because their grandparents are from Ireland are basically just deluded. Likewise people who are black celebrating being "African". Try going to Ireland and see if you feel like you're from there... it's not going to happen. You were born in America, like it or not, then that's your culture and those are your people. There are plenty of microcultures in this country, but the bottom line is that even though my dad was from Ohio, I'm not an Ohian any more than I'm an African or Welsh or even, really, a Cherokee or an Apache. I'm an Oregonian urban indian, basically.
Quote from: Payne on January 13, 2009, 09:50:46 PM
I was going to mention the myth of "America not having a history", largely because I find it so fascinating that America seems to have a hang-up over it.
How much do you need?
If you have 10 times as much "history", you'd only have so much more to feel bad about if you're inclined to feel bad about your country's/culture's/whatever history.
Trying to patch it up by appropriating your identity from another Country/Culture is never going to work, and will likely result in fail at some point.
And it hasn't been fail for the past eight years?
I like the hyphens. It encourages dissension.
TGRR,
Asshat-American
me = shithead-canadian
Quote from: Nigel on January 13, 2009, 11:19:23 PM
Yeah, I think that knowing one's family's heritage is a good thing, but if you were born in America you're American. People who are all "Yay I'm Irish!" because their grandparents are from Ireland are basically just deluded. Likewise people who are black celebrating being "African". Try going to Ireland and see if you feel like you're from there... it's not going to happen. You were born in America, like it or not, then that's your culture and those are your people. There are plenty of microcultures in this country, but the bottom line is that even though my dad was from Ohio, I'm not an Ohian any more than I'm an African or Welsh or even, really, a Cherokee or an Apache. I'm an Oregonian urban indian, basically.
yeah, but are you an urban
shaman (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=13928.0)?
Or a misunderstood cooking genius (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=12841.0)?
Quote from: Mangrove on January 13, 2009, 09:45:43 PM
The US is still a 'work in progress' and it has the distinct disadvantage of being in the glare of the rest of the world as it develops. Though we could say the same about Australia. So the question is for the Aussies, do people 'down-under' insist on identifying themselves as 'Greek-Australian', 'Irish-Australian' etc?
Not really. Part of that could be because of the Australian apathy, but by now most of the genetic lines are rather mixed up anyway.
Of course there are still those "patriotic" (read racist) groups who have a go at the newer immigrants, ie the Vietnamese from after the vietnam war, the Lebanese, etc.
But for the most part we don't worry too much about our heritage, and even when it does come up we don't use those hyphenated terms anyway.
It may also have to do with the fact we don't have that much of a state divide either, people move between states a fair bit here. Which also results in there being less of an accent difference between states as in the US.
That said I live in the middle of nowhere, so perhaps Lys add more of a city view.
Jesus fuck, you guys. :lulz:
I'm pretty much with Mang and Payne on this. I moved around when I was young so much that while I can intellectually understand nationalism, its a concept pretty alien to me personally. With or without hyphens. I seem to recall lots of "Scottish" and "Irish" Americans when studying which knew, well, pretty much nothing about Ireland or Scotland not gleaned from Wikipedia and popular stereotyping (barring one exception, and she knows who she is). And although, thankfully I have never had to deal with them for more than a few seconds, there are Brits who take the whole Celt/Anglo-Saxon thing waaaaaay too seriously.
I really don't care for the social cohesion or lack thereof, I just think people who do it look stupid. Honestly, at some point, I feel nationalism of this type is more pathetic than LARPing. At least in LARPing, people accept its all make believe bullshit as an excuse to dress up and attempt to fight with people.
I haet nationalism's zombie, it should have died when its roots were cut off after WW2.
I think it can get a little blurry for certain, granted small, pockets of Americans, as far as cultural identity. One example is one I am familiar with which are the rural Maine communities in Northern Maine, just this side of the Quebec border. Certainly they are American, but they probably have a lot more incommon with the French-Canadians in Quebec than they do some "regular" Mainer, Americans in this part of the state. I think you'd find a similar situation in Florida with Americans with a Cuban background. 1st Generation specifically.
I think there can be such a thing to be proud of where you come from AND proud of where you are. So yeah, no more hyphens, but you can keep the honor of where your blood came from.
I can get behind this to a point. My only exception are those people who have been allocated Native-Americans. Hell they aren't even divided tribally anymore. BUT, they deserve the hyphen. Hell they are the only "true Americans". So we can divide the whole US into Native-Americans and Interloping-Land raping-disease ridden-greedy-Americans!
:lulz:
Seriously, I hate the hyphen thing too. Unless it annoys someone I want to piss off then I'm the Irish-Cherokee-American :mrgreen:
Otherwise, I'm just that bitch over there :evil:
I guess you haven't read ECH's rant about the red man.
Oh fuck....
Nope never read it. How much digging to I have to do?
Probably a lot.
I think it might have been a few years.
Could have been bumped during the Lamanite scourge.
Long story short: the Plains Indians were pretty damn brutal (in particular, though I recall some PNW tribes could be nasty little sods too). Whitey just had superior ROF.
Also some bit about them not actually being "native".
Quote from: LMNO on January 14, 2009, 04:38:01 PM
Also some bit about them not actually being "native".
No way man!
\
:hippie:
Quote from: LMNO on January 14, 2009, 04:38:01 PM
Also some bit about them not actually being "native".
Well, yeah.
Cain,
genetic native of Africa.
Are there truly any natives of anywhere? Weren't all people nomadic in nature at one time in their history?
I think the hyphen issue has been misappropriated, but does have a valid use.
As has been suggested, it's used to refer to subcultures within american culture-- not to indicate some sort of "double citizenship," or even a blend between cultures. I'm thinking specifically of African-American, here: part of the problem for the descendants of slaves is that being forcibly removed from their homelands had robbed them of any cultural identity except for the slave culture which they had cobbled together from bits and pieces of African, American, Native American, and Caribbean cultures. So they clearly weren't African anymore, in any real sense (they couldn't go 'home' and be seen as natives), nor were they white, obviously, so they couldn't just be American either. Same for Irish immigrants, who were just 'yanks' if they went back over, and I'm sure of many others. So there's a sort of creole culture for which the hyphenated terms have some use.
Trouble is when people use such terms to describe Ethnicity rather than culture-- an easy mistake to make, because most people are just American (read: white) in terms of culture, and don't want to admit it, because of, y'know, slavery oppression and genocide.
And culture has everything to do with how you're raised, and nothing to do with where, or even by whom.
Quote from: Mask of the K on January 14, 2009, 05:13:47 PM
Are there truly any natives of anywhere? Weren't all people nomadic in nature at one time in their history?
I am native to this planet.
For me, it ends there.
I think this thread has kind of degenerated into retarded oversimplification.
NO U?
So now we're doing it wrong in Or Kill Me too?
It's contagious. Like ebola.
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2009, 07:29:11 PM
I think this thread has kind of degenerated into retarded oversimplification.
If that is in regard to my comment, I wasn't being facetious. That is my true view. I reject nationalism completely.
Hippie.
No, mostly I was referring to the whole "No culture is truly native, culture is independent of place" philosophy being expressed, which anyone who has ever put a modicum of effort into understanding the evolution of cultures will recognize as meaningless hippie apologist bullshit.
You can back away and back away and back away, and when you get far enough out EVERYTHING becomes a construct and is meaningless. That doesn't nullify the existence of distinct cultures, the effect geography has on them, or any given cultural sense of being "native".
Anyway.
We're all one, man, hugs! Peace out.
I agree with Cain, Bawheed, Payne etc that once you've moved around enough and experienced a mix of countries and cultures, nationalism is kind of hard to take seriously.
Nigel - you're right, it is easy to endlessly abstract until you get to the point where it becomes meaningless. I guess 'Native-American' stands as an identifier....though perhaps it could be 'Last Known Occupants'?
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2009, 07:48:04 PM
Hippie.
No, mostly I was referring to the whole "No culture is truly native, culture is independent of place" philosophy being expressed, which anyone who has ever put a modicum of effort into understanding the evolution of cultures will recognize as meaningless hippie apologist bullshit.
You can back away and back away and back away, and when you get far enough out EVERYTHING becomes a construct and is meaningless. That doesn't nullify the existence of distinct cultures, the effect geography has on them, or any given cultural sense of being "native".
Anyway.
We're all one, man, hugs! Peace out.
I see it as completely the opposite. Culture itself is something that is awesome and art and worth preserving as part of what makes the human animal so mindbendingly cool but "Cultural Identity" is narrow minded Xenophobia at its fucking worse. I celebrate scottish culture but I think of myself as a member of the human race, not a scot.
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2009, 07:48:04 PM
Hippie.
No, mostly I was referring to the whole "No culture is truly native, culture is independent of place" philosophy being expressed, which anyone who has ever put a modicum of effort into understanding the evolution of cultures will recognize as meaningless hippie apologist bullshit.
You can back away and back away and back away, and when you get far enough out EVERYTHING becomes a construct and is meaningless. That doesn't nullify the existence of distinct cultures, the effect geography has on them, or any given cultural sense of being "native".
Anyway.
We're all one, man, hugs! Peace out.
Yeah, but you're part rapist, so of
course you'd say that.
Quote from: LMNO on January 14, 2009, 08:00:43 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2009, 07:48:04 PM
Hippie.
No, mostly I was referring to the whole "No culture is truly native, culture is independent of place" philosophy being expressed, which anyone who has ever put a modicum of effort into understanding the evolution of cultures will recognize as meaningless hippie apologist bullshit.
You can back away and back away and back away, and when you get far enough out EVERYTHING becomes a construct and is meaningless. That doesn't nullify the existence of distinct cultures, the effect geography has on them, or any given cultural sense of being "native".
Anyway.
We're all one, man, hugs! Peace out.
Yeah, but you're part rapist, so of course you'd say that.
Stop seeing through me!
Quote from: Cain on January 14, 2009, 04:30:37 PM
Long story short: the Plains Indians were pretty damn brutal (in particular, though I recall some PNW tribes could be nasty little sods too). Whitey just had superior ROF.
this.
Quote from: LMNO on January 14, 2009, 04:38:01 PM
Also some bit about them not actually being "native".
and this.
Quote from: BAWHEED on January 14, 2009, 05:50:54 PM
Quote from: Mask of the K on January 14, 2009, 05:13:47 PM
Are there truly any natives of anywhere? Weren't all people nomadic in nature at one time in their history?
I am native to this planet.
For me, it ends there.
also, this.
I have a pretty unique cultural background, and while I'm proud of it and I am thankful for having a perspective of the world from more than one cultural viewpoint, being West Indian only has those passive effects on who I am as a person. I feel no need to actively latch on to something that may not be relevant or appreciated where I am now. So I am who I am and I love the land where I am from AND the land(s) which I spend most of my time in now and none of it means anything to who I am as a person other than providing the scenery and the other people with whom I interact.
The thing is, it's all a matter of perspective. Yeah, culture and race (race in particular) are just human constructs. Fundamentally, all people are just people. Pan out a little more, and all people are just mammals. Pan out a little more, and all mammals are just complex organisms on a planet. The more you step back, the less meaningful or relevant these categorizations become. That does not make it valid to dismiss the existence of different cultures, and in fact starts to look dangerously like an excuse to annihilate smaller cultures and homogenize the planet. Homogeneity is one of the reasons you can already travel to so many places and find the cultures so very similar... the US, Canada, Australia, Great Britain. Those aren't examples of disparate cultures which turn out not to be so different after all, they're examples of a relatively homogenous Western culture which has spread.
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2009, 08:34:21 PM
The thing is, it's all a matter of perspective. Yeah, culture and race (race in particular) are just human constructs. Fundamentally, all people are just people. Pan out a little more, and all people are just mammals. Pan out a little more, and all mammals are just complex organisms on a planet. The more you step back, the less meaningful or relevant these categorizations become. That does not make it valid to dismiss the existence of different cultures, and in fact starts to look dangerously like an excuse to annihilate smaller cultures and homogenize the planet. Homogeneity is one of the reasons you can already travel to so many places and find the cultures so very similar... the US, Canada, Australia, Great Britain. Those aren't examples of disparate cultures which turn out not to be so different after all, they're examples of a relatively homogenous Western culture which has spread.
Agreed. White Americans like to think that they have no culture because their culture has been spread so broadly that they can't see its borders any more.
And I realize that I mistyped earlier-- I should have said that
a person's culture has everything to do with how they're raised. Cultures themselves grow out of geography.
Having lived in the US, the UK and Canada (can't speak for Australia), I would say they are not as homogenous and you'd think.
Also, if they do exhibit similarities, it owing to common language coupled with the fact that the USA is a former British colony and Australia & Canada are both Commonwealth Nations.
yeah, as much fun as it is to make jokes about the 51st state, it's really not America v.2.0, just as America isn't Britain v.2.0.
it doesn't seem to take very long (in an historical context) for distance and geography to create cultural diversity out of cultural homogeny.
As an Italo-Greco-Irish-Japanese-American. I second everything the OP says.
I'm a United States of American. It sucks at times, but I can't really do anything about it, now can I?
I'd also like to say that when you are talking about a country with as vast an area as the USA or Canada or China, you will frequently find cultural divisions within the same nation that are wider than the divisions between smaller nation-states in parts of Europe or Central America, for example. People in western Washington State who have lived here for a generation or more (west of the cascade mountains) generally have more in common culturally with people in western British Columbia than they do with people in DC or Miami. Similarly, Tibetans and Uighurs have less in common with their "fellow" Chinese than they do with, say, most of Kyrgyzstan.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 14, 2009, 09:24:56 PM
I'd also like to say that when you are talking about a country with as vast an area as the USA or Canada or China, you will frequently find cultural divisions within the same nation that are wider than the divisions between smaller nation-states in parts of Europe or Central America, for example. People in western Washington State who have lived here for a generation or more (west of the cascade mountains) generally have more in common culturally with people in western British Columbia than they do with people in DC or Miami. Similarly, Tibetans and Uighurs have less in common with their "fellow" Chinese than they do with, say, most of Kyrgyzstan.
Precisely. Which is why Cram won't eat grits. It's cultural to the South, but not to the North where he grew up.
and then, of course, you have to note that many conquered territories of far-flung empires have retained and developed their own culture as much or more than they have adopted the culture of their overlords.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 14, 2009, 09:24:56 PM
I'd also like to say that when you are talking about a country with as vast an area as the USA or Canada or China, you will frequently find cultural divisions within the same nation that are wider than the divisions between smaller nation-states in parts of Europe or Central America, for example. People in western Washington State who have lived here for a generation or more (west of the cascade mountains) generally have more in common culturally with people in western British Columbia than they do with people in DC or Miami. Similarly, Tibetans and Uighurs have less in common with their "fellow" Chinese than they do with, say, most of Kyrgyzstan.
Red State vs Blue State seems to have a lot to do with this IMO.
I dunno about that. WA is a blue state and has more in common culturally with Montana or Idaho than it does with Mass or NY.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 14, 2009, 09:29:05 PM
and then, of course, you have to note that many conquered territories of far-flung empires have retained and developed their own culture as much or more than they have adopted the culture of their overlords.
Or, of course, the example of the Mongolians and assorted other "barbarians" invading China, conquering them, and becoming as Chinese as any of their vanquished foes...
That may have little point in this thread, but the idea of it has always intrigued me.
Quote from: Suu on January 14, 2009, 09:24:25 PM
As an Italo-Greco-Irish-Japanese-American. I second everything the OP says.
I'm a United States of American. It sucks at times, but I can't really do anything about it, now can I?
There's no more hyphens because Suu took them all!
And yes, there's not a lot you can do about it. Everywhere you go people are going to say 'Who's that American woman in the Star Wars costume?'
Quote from: Mangrove on January 14, 2009, 09:00:32 PM
Having lived in the US, the UK and Canada (can't speak for Australia), I would say they are not as homogenous and you'd think.
Also, if they do exhibit similarities, it owing to common language coupled with the fact that the USA is a former British colony and Australia & Canada are both Commonwealth Nations.
They're not completely homogeneous, and there are many subcultures, but one of the main reasons there is so much commonality is for exactly the reason you state... which is why using the commonalities among these countries as an example of how cultures really aren't that different from place to place is not a very convincing example.
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 14, 2009, 09:29:40 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 14, 2009, 09:24:56 PM
I'd also like to say that when you are talking about a country with as vast an area as the USA or Canada or China, you will frequently find cultural divisions within the same nation that are wider than the divisions between smaller nation-states in parts of Europe or Central America, for example. People in western Washington State who have lived here for a generation or more (west of the cascade mountains) generally have more in common culturally with people in western British Columbia than they do with people in DC or Miami. Similarly, Tibetans and Uighurs have less in common with their "fellow" Chinese than they do with, say, most of Kyrgyzstan.
Red State vs Blue State seems to have a lot to do with this IMO.
No, what you have is red v blue counties. Basically, you have thousands of tiny tribes that are "ideologically" opposed to each other, except that neither tribe would be able to give you a logical explanation of WHY they are different, if actual facts are examined.
This is, of course, intentionally instilled in them by the "liberal" media...and, like the fucking PRIMATES they are, the population willingly swallows it all.
UNNNNNNNG!
Goddammit, I fucking HATE PEOPLE. And one fine day, I will kill you all.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2009, 11:59:36 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 14, 2009, 09:29:40 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 14, 2009, 09:24:56 PM
I'd also like to say that when you are talking about a country with as vast an area as the USA or Canada or China, you will frequently find cultural divisions within the same nation that are wider than the divisions between smaller nation-states in parts of Europe or Central America, for example. People in western Washington State who have lived here for a generation or more (west of the cascade mountains) generally have more in common culturally with people in western British Columbia than they do with people in DC or Miami. Similarly, Tibetans and Uighurs have less in common with their "fellow" Chinese than they do with, say, most of Kyrgyzstan.
Red State vs Blue State seems to have a lot to do with this IMO.
No, what you have is red v blue counties. Basically, you have thousands of tiny tribes that are "ideologically" opposed to each other, except that neither tribe would be able to give you a logical explanation of WHY they are different, if actual facts are examined.
This is, of course, intentionally instilled in them by the "liberal" media...and, like the fucking PRIMATES they are, the population willingly swallows it all.
UNNNNNNNG!
Goddammit, I fucking HATE PEOPLE. And one fine day, I will kill you all.
That brings a tear to my eye,
Beautiful...
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 15, 2009, 12:20:25 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2009, 11:59:36 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 14, 2009, 09:29:40 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 14, 2009, 09:24:56 PM
I'd also like to say that when you are talking about a country with as vast an area as the USA or Canada or China, you will frequently find cultural divisions within the same nation that are wider than the divisions between smaller nation-states in parts of Europe or Central America, for example. People in western Washington State who have lived here for a generation or more (west of the cascade mountains) generally have more in common culturally with people in western British Columbia than they do with people in DC or Miami. Similarly, Tibetans and Uighurs have less in common with their "fellow" Chinese than they do with, say, most of Kyrgyzstan.
Red State vs Blue State seems to have a lot to do with this IMO.
No, what you have is red v blue counties. Basically, you have thousands of tiny tribes that are "ideologically" opposed to each other, except that neither tribe would be able to give you a logical explanation of WHY they are different, if actual facts are examined.
This is, of course, intentionally instilled in them by the "liberal" media...and, like the fucking PRIMATES they are, the population willingly swallows it all.
UNNNNNNNG!
Goddammit, I fucking HATE PEOPLE. And one fine day, I will kill you all.
That brings a tear to my eye,
Beautiful...
Yeah, I got my fucking hate back.
I can totally see the OP's point here. It would seem to me that such cultural/racial references would only really apply if you were actually raised using said cultural/racial ideals.
America, like England is a nation populated entirely by peoples who if you go back far enough are from other shores. The old name for the English was Anglo-Saxon, back when these islands were populated by a mixture of Angles, Saxons and Celts, which pretty much makes England a historical nation of mongrels. Over time this name was dropped in favour of English, after the land they occupied and a cultural Identity of their own developed with obvious references to their descendants cultures and a few little idiosyncrasies of their own.
With America originally being populated by peoples from England, Spain, Africa and the tribes who already dwelled there this to me makes them a country of mongrels too, but with it still being quite young as far as countries go, I kind of understand why the national identity can still be so split as to cause certain of its inhabitants to latch on to their ancestry as a cultural identifier.
I myself am a Welsh-Italian, my mother being Welsh and my father Italian, and I was raised using ideals and memes from both cultures. I have often wondered though as what to classify myself, having dual nationality in a very legal sense, but speaking neither Italian or Welsh (The parts of North Wales I was raised in are almost completely English speaking). Sure, I have an obsession with Pasta and Cheese on toast (or "Welsh Rarebit"), but are such things enough to make me either, or am I something else entirely, or maybe more importantly does it really matter at all?
Maybe, in a genetic manner of speaking, I am a Romano-Celt, but more recently I have been hovering over the idea that I am merely Human and that everything else is just another meme.
I guess what I'm trying to say (and rambling a bit in the meantime) is that the OP definitely has a point as to the irrelevancy of the hyphenated cultural identifier, but it does seem understandable that occupants of a young country would use them.
Quote from: Suu on January 14, 2009, 09:28:09 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 14, 2009, 09:24:56 PM
I'd also like to say that when you are talking about a country with as vast an area as the USA or Canada or China, you will frequently find cultural divisions within the same nation that are wider than the divisions between smaller nation-states in parts of Europe or Central America, for example. People in western Washington State who have lived here for a generation or more (west of the cascade mountains) generally have more in common culturally with people in western British Columbia than they do with people in DC or Miami. Similarly, Tibetans and Uighurs have less in common with their "fellow" Chinese than they do with, say, most of Kyrgyzstan.
Precisely. Which is why Cram won't eat grits. It's cultural to the South, but not to the North where he grew up.
Also, he's an idiot.
LMNO
-stone ground chipotle cheese grits, bitch.
Quote from: LMNO on January 15, 2009, 02:49:13 PM
Quote from: Suu on January 14, 2009, 09:28:09 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 14, 2009, 09:24:56 PM
I'd also like to say that when you are talking about a country with as vast an area as the USA or Canada or China, you will frequently find cultural divisions within the same nation that are wider than the divisions between smaller nation-states in parts of Europe or Central America, for example. People in western Washington State who have lived here for a generation or more (west of the cascade mountains) generally have more in common culturally with people in western British Columbia than they do with people in DC or Miami. Similarly, Tibetans and Uighurs have less in common with their "fellow" Chinese than they do with, say, most of Kyrgyzstan.
Precisely. Which is why Cram won't eat grits. It's cultural to the South, but not to the North where he grew up.
Also, he's an idiot.
LMNO
-stone ground chipotle cheese grits, bitch.
NO URDOINITWRONG!
Grits+Butter+milk+sugar= Still not as yummy as Cream of Wheat