All across America in 2008, people had been ranting and generally paying an inordinate amount of attention to the Democrat Candidate's skin color. In the primaries he was called a "long shot" candidate by some because he wasn't an elderly white guy like the rest. Interestingly, Obama's campaign has gotten more attention because of his race than any other factor. He's supremely likable as a person, and has a good speaking voice. He seems aware of the world around him, and he's not a vaguely reptilian old white guy. Things have been bad. This country is still hung over from what is being called the worst presidency ever.1
If there are people seriously saying we live in a "Post Racial America", their voices are lost in a sea of rebuttal. If you can, search Google for "we are living in post racial America" and you will see five pages of not a single person saying so. Google isn't definitive, but it's good for reading trends. Every article I read refers to "the absurd talk about post-racial America."2 The serious lack of people actually professing that we are past race leads me to suspect that reactionaries invented it as a straw man argument. That we are not living in a Post-Race America is a commonplace observation. That there are people who truly believe it is the real myth.
It's a great thing that the United States has finally matured enough to elect minorities. It is not such a great thing that we are not by any stretch leading the way in this. Other countries have opened their highest office to women and minority alike for some time. While Obama's election is a good thing, it's bittersweet. Why is everyone so shocked and apprehensive? If we're an enlightened society of freethinkers, why are allowing racial tension a voice in modern politics?
While I admire the hopeful Progressive naivete in suggesting that Obama's election might herald a Golden Era of political colorblindness, I can't buy it. This last election was a farce; The choices were to waste our vote on a long shot 3rd party candidate, a couple of average seeming Democrats, or a nearly dead Republican and his horrifying VP. The office of the President is as much a figurehead as it is a position of power, and the only suitable option was to at least restore America's dignity with someone who didn't giggle and stutter on stage.
1) Tom Head. "Worst. President. Ever?"
<http://civilliberty.about.com/b/2008/12/26/worst-president-ever.htm> December 2008
2) Fred McKissack. "We still aren't in a post-racial society"
<http://www.progressive.org/mp/mckissack110508.html> November 2008.
Honey
your optimism is delicious.
I hope that this is a harbinger for a unified, post-racial America
but hope is not always the same as optimism.
I think it's a part of the human condition to be hung up on superficial nonsense. It's hard to imagine a time when we're ever rid of race being such a prominent element in how we treat each other.
Thanks, guys.
The intention wasn't to spread optimistic thought. The message is: We're not that enlightened, it's a straw man, we focused way too much on race this election, and the election was a farce.
What can I change to remove the scent of optimism?
I think you should be optimistic.
Racism isn't gone, I doubt it ever will be... its just another presumptive stereotyping based on labels... the programs of the ancient human beings still run in our brains.
HOWEVER, if this same election cycle happened in 1969, 1975 or even 1986... I don't think Obama would have won. I remember people I grew up around seriously believing that 'coloreds' were genetically inferior (and therefore wouldn't have voted for Obama), they're not as smart, not as capable, they have a 'black agenda' etc etc. Yet some of those same people voted for Obama and no longer say such things. I figure that they're probably still racist... they probably still prejudge and stereotype on race... but the views they hold seem to have softened.
I think, if the trends continue, racism will soften to the point that its on par with most of the other stereotypical labels. Hippies, Women, Men, Catholics, Protestants, Evangelicals, Native Americans, Atheists etc.
So, unless the sole factor to judge progress on is the abolishment of all stereotypes, I think we should be pretty damned optimistic.
But then, having lived in a town where I remember burnt crosses... maybe my perception is skewed.
Optimism is the wrong tone for the points I'm trying to make, but hope is good though.
Personally, I'm pretty optimistic.
Mostly for my own sanity.
Quote from: Felix on February 17, 2009, 05:56:45 PM
Optimism is the wrong tone for the points I'm trying to make, but hope is good though.
Personally, I'm pretty optimistic.
Mostly for my own sanity.
Hell Yes
Either one is optimistic and it gets better/worse
Or one is pessimistic and it gets better/worse
Either way, the destination is the same, so I might as well feel better about the ride.
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 17, 2009, 06:12:32 PM
Quote from: Felix on February 17, 2009, 05:56:45 PM
Optimism is the wrong tone for the points I'm trying to make, but hope is good though.
Personally, I'm pretty optimistic.
Mostly for my own sanity.
Hell Yes
Either one is optimistic and it gets better/worse
Or one is pessimistic and it gets better/worse
Either way, the destination is the same, so I might as well feel better about the ride.
OTO - Pessimists are never disappointed and occasionally, pleasantly surprised. Optimists are frequently disappointed
I find pessimism suits my cynical nature much more comfortably although I have lapsed into optimism from time to time.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on February 17, 2009, 07:39:58 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 17, 2009, 06:12:32 PM
Quote from: Felix on February 17, 2009, 05:56:45 PM
Optimism is the wrong tone for the points I'm trying to make, but hope is good though.
Personally, I'm pretty optimistic.
Mostly for my own sanity.
Hell Yes
Either one is optimistic and it gets better/worse
Or one is pessimistic and it gets better/worse
Either way, the destination is the same, so I might as well feel better about the ride.
OTO - Pessimists are never disappointed and occasionally, pleasantly surprised. Optimists are frequently disappointed
I find pessimism suits my cynical nature much more comfortably although I have lapsed into optimism from time to time.
I find that I am pessimistic about human organizations, but optimistic about humans in general. Everything else depends on how stoned I am ;-)
Quote from: Felix on February 17, 2009, 05:36:54 PM
The intention wasn't to spread optimistic thought. The message is: We're not that enlightened, it's a straw man, we focused way too much on race this election, and the election was a farce.
What can I change to make that clearer?
Fixed.
I think it may be that first line in the 3rd paragraph that is drawing the focus on optimism. Also, maybe focus a little more on the fact that so much attention was placed on race during this election. Because it is absolutely true. Sure, a lot of it was the feel good, "he's the first black President evar" variety, but it was still putting so much importance on him being the first black President. The important focus was the fact that he wasn't George W. fucking Bush. NOt that he was the first Black President. He can be the fucking San Diego Chicken just bail this fucker out before we join the Titanic.
I'll rewrite it to emphasize the overemphasis on race. Thanks, man.
Just to clarify something. Everyone is racist it is all on how much you are. I don't like seeing a bunch of mexicans waiting outside of a home depot speaking spanish and not know a single word of English. It makes me want ot go to them and make them learn English (the hard way).
I believe alot of things and this is one of them. To believe is for you to deiced. To die without a corpse is the war of war and hate....Just a random saying out in the open....Don't steal it.
Oh hell I must be out of my dirty, unholy, FUCKED up mind to be typing all this on here.
What if they're in front of a Home Depot in South Texas, which has been predominantly Spanish-speaking since before it was a U.S. state?
Maybe you're unaware that English is NOT the official language of the USA?
Quote from: Felix on February 17, 2009, 06:16:42 AM
All across America in 2008, people had been ranting and generally paying an inordinate amount of attention to the Democrat Candidate's skin color. In the primaries he was called a "long shot" candidate by some because he wasn't an elderly white guy like the rest. Interestingly, Obama's campaign has gotten more attention because of his race than any other factor. He's supremely likable as a person, and has a good speaking voice. He seems aware of the world around him, and he's not a vaguely reptilian old white guy. Things have been bad. This country is still hung over from what is being called the worst presidency ever.1
If there are people seriously saying we live in a "Post Racial America", their voices are lost in a sea of rebuttal. If you can, search Google for "we are living in post racial America" and you will see five pages of not a single person saying so. Google isn't definitive, but it's good for reading trends. Every article I read refers to "the absurd talk about post-racial America."2 The serious lack of people actually professing that we are past race leads me to suspect that reactionaries invented it as a straw man argument. That we are not living in a Post-Race America is a commonplace observation. That there are people who truly believe it is the real myth.
It's a great thing that the United States has finally matured enough to elect minorities. It is not such a great thing that we are not by any stretch leading the way in this. Other countries have opened their highest office to women and minority alike for some time. While Obama's election is a good thing, it's bittersweet. Why is everyone so shocked and apprehensive? If we're an enlightened society of freethinkers, why are allowing racial tension a voice in modern politics?
While I admire the hopeful Progressive naivete in suggesting that Obama's election might herald a Golden Era of political colorblindness, I can't buy it. This last election was a farce; The choices were to waste our vote on a long shot 3rd party candidate, a couple of average seeming Democrats, or a nearly dead Republican and his horrifying VP. The office of the President is as much a figurehead as it is a position of power, and the only suitable option was to at least restore America's dignity with someone who didn't giggle and stutter on stage.
1) Tom Head. "Worst. President. Ever?"
<http://civilliberty.about.com/b/2008/12/26/worst-president-ever.htm> December 2008
2) Fred McKissack. "We still aren't in a post-racial society"
<http://www.progressive.org/mp/mckissack110508.html> November 2008.
QuoteThe serious lack of people actually professing that we are past race leads me to suspect that reactionaries invented it as a straw man argument. That we are not living in a Post-Race America is a commonplace observation. That there are people who truly believe it is the real myth.
Are we past race? My opinion based on, as you said, commonplace observations, is no.
Was this notion created by reactionaries as a straw man argument? Possible, based on the
desperation of those reactionaries, more like a red herring maybe?
Are there people who truly believe it? Possible but not bloody likely. I think there are "true believers" of many ilk. I don't think it's possible to
underestimate the power of denial. "There's no such thing as a conscious hypocrite." & "Real courage is risking one's clichés." Takes guts to continue to live with what you unearth.
QuoteIf we're an enlightened society of freethinkers, why are allowing racial tension a voice in modern politics?
Because it's easier to be in denial about these things. I know I'm overstating the obvious here, but gimme a shot? Fast forward to World History 101 perspective, maybe 100 years from now. Do you think people will note more than a coincidental correlation to the fact that (in earlier years & elections) more than half the population was not eligible to vote for representatives (& all the other bullshit this notion was based on – for more on this, see Jim Crowe Laws years
1876 and 1965 – surely this is not ancient history?)? Do you think future pundits will see
this as a straw man or red herring argument? Or will we, as peoples, have learned how to harness the power of denial as an aid in remembering the past & thereby controlling the future? "Power (of denial) corrupts, absolute power (of denial) corrupts absolutely?" Based on present day views, I hope (in the future) people see the causal relationship & have moved on past it.
About 40% of the eligible population still doesn't vote, even a mediocre president would be an improvement over one of the worst.
(Having some trouble remaining logged on here, so I'll say so long for now. I liked the OP.)
Quote from: The Revered Asshat on February 18, 2009, 05:46:53 AM
What if they're in front of a Home Depot in South Texas, which has been predominantly Spanish-speaking since before it was a U.S. state?
Maybe you're unaware that English is NOT the official language of the USA?
:lulz:
Well, I don't care what people do, or what they speak... but it does seem to say something about the mindset of any individual who lives in a country and doesn't learn the language. I have always been disgusted by Americans that go live in a foreign nation and don't learn that language. It seems rude, thoughtless and rather insulting. If that's on top of entering the country illegally and working in the country illegally, then I have to say, overall, that doesn't seems to speak well for the psychological mindset of the individual.
In my opinion, the idea that anyone should be an 'illegal alien'; in a nation owned and run by immigrants is insane. However, the idea that the government is supposed to cover emergency medical services, welfare etc is also insane... the fact that the government mandates insurance is insane... and all of these insane things work together to make an 'illegal alien' an actual problem. Not in and of themselves, but because there is X tax monies available for 'services'... the new immigrants make use of those services, but in many cases don't pay into them. And since they're not 'legal' then they're not gonna have car insurance... and thats gonna cause more problems for the spag they hit.
Overall, its a mess and the actions of sombual undocumented immigrants can appear as a slap in the face to the country that they've come into. I'm not surprised that many people are deeply offended and upset by the situation.
Though, IMO, I say let 'em come. Maybe they'll help finish off the system and we can try again.
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 18, 2009, 05:05:00 PM
Quote from: The Revered Asshat on February 18, 2009, 05:46:53 AM
What if they're in front of a Home Depot in South Texas, which has been predominantly Spanish-speaking since before it was a U.S. state?
Maybe you're unaware that English is NOT the official language of the USA?
:lulz:
Well, I don't care what people do, or what they speak... but it does seem to say something about the mindset of any individual who lives in a country and doesn't learn the language. I have always been disgusted by Americans that go live in a foreign nation and don't learn that language. It seems rude, thoughtless and rather insulting. If that's on top of entering the country illegally and working in the country illegally, then I have to say, overall, that doesn't seems to speak well for the psychological mindset of the individual.
In my opinion, the idea that anyone should be an 'illegal alien'; in a nation owned and run by immigrants is insane. However, the idea that the government is supposed to cover emergency medical services, welfare etc is also insane... the fact that the government mandates insurance is insane... and all of these insane things work together to make an 'illegal alien' an actual problem. Not in and of themselves, but because there is X tax monies available for 'services'... the new immigrants make use of those services, but in many cases don't pay into them. And since they're not 'legal' then they're not gonna have car insurance... and thats gonna cause more problems for the spag they hit.
Overall, its a mess and the actions of sombual undocumented immigrants can appear as a slap in the face to the country that they've come into. I'm not surprised that many people are deeply offended and upset by the situation.
Though, IMO, I say let 'em come. Maybe they'll help finish off the system and we can try again.
But Rat, the point I'm making is that some communities in the US speak Spanish predominantly, and by your own logic it is the non-Spanish speaker who should learn the language of the land. And I'm not talking about immigrants... I'm talking about people whose families have lived there speaking Spanish since before Texas was a state.
If you live in an area where there is 50% or higher Spanish-speaking population, it makes as much sense to learn English as it does for the English-speaking residents of that area to learn Spanish... which is to say, quite a lot of sense. That's why my kids are learning Spanish.
Expressing contempt for people speaking Spanish (or any other language) amongst themselves outside of Home Depot is nothing but stupid bigotry, and completely irrelevant to anything. Now, if they're inside a Home Depot in a predominantly English-speaking area raising a stink because the employees don't speak their language, there's reason for contempt.
Quote from: The Revered Asshat on February 18, 2009, 08:06:45 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 18, 2009, 05:05:00 PM
Quote from: The Revered Asshat on February 18, 2009, 05:46:53 AM
What if they're in front of a Home Depot in South Texas, which has been predominantly Spanish-speaking since before it was a U.S. state?
Maybe you're unaware that English is NOT the official language of the USA?
:lulz:
Well, I don't care what people do, or what they speak... but it does seem to say something about the mindset of any individual who lives in a country and doesn't learn the language. I have always been disgusted by Americans that go live in a foreign nation and don't learn that language. It seems rude, thoughtless and rather insulting. If that's on top of entering the country illegally and working in the country illegally, then I have to say, overall, that doesn't seems to speak well for the psychological mindset of the individual.
In my opinion, the idea that anyone should be an 'illegal alien'; in a nation owned and run by immigrants is insane. However, the idea that the government is supposed to cover emergency medical services, welfare etc is also insane... the fact that the government mandates insurance is insane... and all of these insane things work together to make an 'illegal alien' an actual problem. Not in and of themselves, but because there is X tax monies available for 'services'... the new immigrants make use of those services, but in many cases don't pay into them. And since they're not 'legal' then they're not gonna have car insurance... and thats gonna cause more problems for the spag they hit.
Overall, its a mess and the actions of sombual undocumented immigrants can appear as a slap in the face to the country that they've come into. I'm not surprised that many people are deeply offended and upset by the situation.
Though, IMO, I say let 'em come. Maybe they'll help finish off the system and we can try again.
But Rat, the point I'm making is that some communities in the US speak Spanish predominantly, and by your own logic it is the non-Spanish speaker who should learn the language of the land. And I'm not talking about immigrants... I'm talking about people whose families have lived there speaking Spanish since before Texas was a state.
If you live in an area where there is 50% or higher Spanish-speaking population, it makes as much sense to learn English as it does for the English-speaking residents of that area to learn Spanish... which is to say, quite a lot of sense. That's why my kids are learning Spanish.
Expressing contempt for people speaking Spanish (or any other language) amongst themselves outside of Home Depot is nothing but stupid bigotry, and completely irrelevant to anything. Now, if they're inside a Home Depot in a predominantly English-speaking area raising a stink because the employees don't speak their language, there's reason for contempt.
I don't disagree... if a population is 50/50 (or 40/60 or 30/70) then everyone should be learning a new language.
I just have a quick thing to add. Michigan schools have changed their high school graduation requirements so that it's only possible to get a diploma if said student has taken a course to learn a non-English language. And they didn't do it completely stupid either, they're allowing this requirement to be fulfilled in elementary school (you know, when our brains are the best wired to learn a new language).
Quote from: A Reverend Asshat on February 18, 2009, 08:24:12 PM
I just have a quick thing to add. Michigan schools have changed their high school graduation requirements so that it's only possible to get a diploma if said student has taken a course to learn a non-English language. And they didn't do it completely stupid either, they're allowing this requirement to be fulfilled in elementary school (you know, when our brains are the best wired to learn a new language).
A most excellent idea!
I've got a cousin who's maybe 15 and he's already a genius polyglot because he studied languages when he was very young.
I really would like to learn other languages but I don't have time to. I just try to learn by watching alot of foreign shows with subtitles. Hey it works....some at least. I don't think that a population should be made by percentages to make and learn a new way of communication. it is not a good way to make them more united or anything. When we came here, we already spoke English. I don't think we should reform for the sake of some illegals that think they can come to my country and expect me to know what the hell Paco means when he says El mantango. I think it is not worth the time and I don't think I will be going to mexico any time soon.
Quote from: Seth_The_Fallen on February 18, 2009, 10:26:46 PM
I really would like to learn other languages but I don't have time to. I just try to learn by watching alot of foreign shows with subtitles. Hey it works....some at least. I don't think that a population should be made by percentages to make and learn a new way of communication. it is not a good way to make them more united or anything.
So far so good. I was with you right up to this point:
Quote
When we came here, we already spoke English. I don't think we should reform for the sake of some illegals that think they can come to my country and expect me to know what the hell Paco means when he says El mantango. I think it is not worth the time and I don't think I will be going to mexico any time soon.
Who's "we", shitfuck? And who are you referring to as "illegals"? Everyone who speaks Spanish on their own time?
Die in a hole.
Ha ha ha. very nice come back I think you know what your talking about. Nice arguing with you. But I don't plan on dieing anytime soon. I don't mind it if you came here to try it though. :lol:
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/forumspecific/something-awful-eye.gif)
Quote from: Phineas Poxwattle on February 18, 2009, 10:42:52 PM
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/forumspecific/something-awful-eye.gif)
:mittens:
Quote from: Seth_The_Fallen on February 18, 2009, 10:36:28 PM
Ha ha ha. very nice come back I think you know what your talking about. Nice arguing with you. But I don't plan on dieing anytime soon. I don't mind it if you came here to try it though. :lol:
... the only reason you haven't been flamed to death is that people feel sorry that you have to live with being you.
And you think I could care about getting flamed? I don't know your point of views but I have mine. No use trying to change them unless you have something better to replace them with. something more believable.
The Queen is a shape shifting lizard, all your ideas are implanted.
Ok, you think that any migrant that enters a country on a semi/permanent basis should learn the language? Aside from the obvious colonialism points, language is not the same across a country.
For example, in France the people of Breton speak a Celtic language to the point they have to have dual language signs. Should everyone be forced to speak Breton? No of cause not, its France.
Should everyone speak French? No, because it is part of the culture to speak the native language.
[/answering own questions]
You shouldn't force your language on anyone. If you learn each others languages that's great, but it should be a choice.
Quote from: The Revered Asshat on February 18, 2009, 10:30:30 PM
Quote from: Seth_The_Fallen on February 18, 2009, 10:26:46 PM
I really would like to learn other languages but I don't have time to. I just try to learn by watching alot of foreign shows with subtitles. Hey it works....some at least. I don't think that a population should be made by percentages to make and learn a new way of communication. it is not a good way to make them more united or anything.
So far so good. I was with you right up to this point:
Quote
When we came here, we already spoke English. I don't think we should reform for the sake of some illegals that think they can come to my country and expect me to know what the hell Paco means when he says El mantango. I think it is not worth the time and I don't think I will be going to mexico any time soon.
Who's "we", shitfuck? And who are you referring to as "illegals"? Everyone who speaks Spanish on their own time?
Die in a hole.
This
Quote from: The Revered Asshat on February 18, 2009, 08:06:45 PM
Expressing contempt for people speaking Spanish (or any other language) amongst themselves outside of Home Depot is nothing but stupid bigotry, and completely irrelevant to anything. Now, if they're inside a Home Depot in a predominantly English-speaking area raising a stink because the employees don't speak their language, there's reason for contempt.
This I agree with. The area I live in is predominantly white and English speaking, but there are also relatively significant Hispanic and Asian populations. The city where I was born was a very large immigrant city and still is pretty much, just a different demographic. At the jobs I've had, especially at a AAA call center I worked at everyone spoke English and at the call center we had one person, maybe two, that spoke Spanish and there wasn't one on at all times. When people called in whose spoke English it made an already difficult situation even harder, but for the most part people did the best they could and we could gather the information needed to send help out to them. Then there were the people that yelled and screamed because no-one spoke Spanish (not trying to generalize here, but they were the only non-English/English second language that gave us a hard time, Asian language speaking people and misc. languages just made the best effort to communicate the needed information) and often, once they were done their bitch-fest, they magically learned how to speak English when they realized that that was all anyone at the center spoke. That is what pisses me off. Otherwise to each his own as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: Seth_The_Fallen on February 18, 2009, 10:26:46 PM
When we came here, we already spoke English. I don't think we should reform for the sake of some illegals that think they can come to my country and expect me to know what the hell Paco means when he says El mantango.
:lulz: :lulz:
Yes, who is this "we" coming here? British immigrants? Ok, one point for you, they spoke English. What about the French, German, Italian, Polish, Dutch, etc. etc. immigrants that came here in the country's early years? Did they all speak English too when they arrived here? Amazing!
Also, IIRC, the closest thing America ever had to an official national language was German when they voted on it way back when. So, why aren't you speaking German, guy?
wow. that "we already spoke english" quote is killing me.
you know, living here has taught me something. sign language.
we have a lot of people who move here from mexico or puerto rico.
i cant speak a word of spanish and those two speak different spanishes anyway.
you lern 2 sign. you can talk to anyone on the planet if you use the right hand gestures and body language.
theres a tortillarilla across the street that i eat at sometimes cause the food is really good but they dont speak a word of english. they dont have to. its a mexican store and i'm whitey.
i can still manage to order food and be polite and they can laugh at the little cracker that doesnt speak spanish.
i dont care. the food is good and they get money. win/win.
learn english. pshshshshshshhh. please. learn to communicate.
It always makes me laugh when people from areas where communities of natural-born Americans have spoken Spanish as a first language for generations start in with the "Learn Our Language!" rhetoric. You want to live in Texas or Arizona? Fucking learn Spanish, they spoke it there before they spoke English. Learn Navajo while you're at it, assholes.
First of all, if the language people speak is high enough on your list of issues that you're even thinking about it, either your life is insanely problem-free and you should be grateful, or you have some massive prioritization deficiency.
Second of all, unless it effects you directly, why do you give a shit what language people speak? If just HEARING people speak amongst themselves in a language you don't speak sends you into an apoplectic rage, WAYSA? I once knew a guy who lived in southern Texas who was OUTRAGED at how often people would greet him in Spanish or ask if he spoke it. It actually pissed him off. I'm thinking... dude, get a fucking sense of perspective.
Oh, and read a history book, for fuck sake. Having an opinion on something you're completely ignorant of makes you look like a retard.
This is probably why educated people are more likely to be tolerant of others... they actually know what they're talking about, rather than merely parroting opinions they heard on the radio.
IAWN. Arguing to legislate English supremacy is bullshit.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on February 19, 2009, 07:00:34 PM
Quote from: The Revered Asshat on February 18, 2009, 08:06:45 PM
Expressing contempt for people speaking Spanish (or any other language) amongst themselves outside of Home Depot is nothing but stupid bigotry, and completely irrelevant to anything. Now, if they're inside a Home Depot in a predominantly English-speaking area raising a stink because the employees don't speak their language, there's reason for contempt.
This I agree with. The area I live in is predominantly white and English speaking, but there are also relatively significant Hispanic and Asian populations. The city where I was born was a very large immigrant city and still is pretty much, just a different demographic. At the jobs I've had, especially at a AAA call center I worked at everyone spoke English and at the call center we had one person, maybe two, that spoke Spanish and there wasn't one on at all times. When people called in whose spoke English it made an already difficult situation even harder, but for the most part people did the best they could and we could gather the information needed to send help out to them. Then there were the people that yelled and screamed because no-one spoke Spanish (not trying to generalize here, but they were the only non-English/English second language that gave us a hard time, Asian language speaking people and misc. languages just made the best effort to communicate the needed information) and often, once they were done their bitch-fest, they magically learned how to speak English when they realized that that was all anyone at the center spoke. That is what pisses me off. Otherwise to each his own as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: Seth_The_Fallen on February 18, 2009, 10:26:46 PM
When we came here, we already spoke English. I don't think we should reform for the sake of some illegals that think they can come to my country and expect me to know what the hell Paco means when he says El mantango.
:lulz: :lulz:
Yes, who is this "we" coming here? British immigrants? Ok, one point for you, they spoke English. What about the French, German, Italian, Polish, Dutch, etc. etc. immigrants that came here in the country's early years? Did they all speak English too when they arrived here? Amazing!
Also, IIRC, the closest thing America ever had to an official national language was German when they voted on it way back when. So, why aren't you speaking German, guy?
Yes the other immigrants that came here didn't speak English but they at least tried to. Plus they did it the legal way through the government. Not jumping fences and dodging border control.
wut
Quote from: Seth_The_Fallen on February 23, 2009, 04:07:19 AM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on February 19, 2009, 07:00:34 PM
Quote from: The Revered Asshat on February 18, 2009, 08:06:45 PM
Expressing contempt for people speaking Spanish (or any other language) amongst themselves outside of Home Depot is nothing but stupid bigotry, and completely irrelevant to anything. Now, if they're inside a Home Depot in a predominantly English-speaking area raising a stink because the employees don't speak their language, there's reason for contempt.
This I agree with. The area I live in is predominantly white and English speaking, but there are also relatively significant Hispanic and Asian populations. The city where I was born was a very large immigrant city and still is pretty much, just a different demographic. At the jobs I've had, especially at a AAA call center I worked at everyone spoke English and at the call center we had one person, maybe two, that spoke Spanish and there wasn't one on at all times. When people called in whose spoke English it made an already difficult situation even harder, but for the most part people did the best they could and we could gather the information needed to send help out to them. Then there were the people that yelled and screamed because no-one spoke Spanish (not trying to generalize here, but they were the only non-English/English second language that gave us a hard time, Asian language speaking people and misc. languages just made the best effort to communicate the needed information) and often, once they were done their bitch-fest, they magically learned how to speak English when they realized that that was all anyone at the center spoke. That is what pisses me off. Otherwise to each his own as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: Seth_The_Fallen on February 18, 2009, 10:26:46 PM
When we came here, we already spoke English. I don't think we should reform for the sake of some illegals that think they can come to my country and expect me to know what the hell Paco means when he says El mantango.
:lulz: :lulz:
Yes, who is this "we" coming here? British immigrants? Ok, one point for you, they spoke English. What about the French, German, Italian, Polish, Dutch, etc. etc. immigrants that came here in the country's early years? Did they all speak English too when they arrived here? Amazing!
Also, IIRC, the closest thing America ever had to an official national language was German when they voted on it way back when. So, why aren't you speaking German, guy?
Yes the other immigrants that came here didn't speak English but they at least tried to. Plus they did it the legal way through the government. Not jumping fences and dodging border control.
:mullet:
Quote from: Seth_The_Fallen on February 23, 2009, 04:07:19 AMYes the other immigrants that came here didn't speak English but they at least tried to. Plus they did it the legal way through the government. Not jumping fences and dodging border control.
I'm not even American and I know for a fact that there were Dutch, German, Spanish, Swedish, Finnish and French speaking communities all over the country from pretty much its inception and especially after the revolution.
Also, the legal way to emigate back then was to get on a boat or a wagon and settle down in some land that was considered American. That's it. Can you really talk of legality if there was no law about this in the first place?
Quote from: Cain on February 23, 2009, 09:38:45 AM
Quote from: Seth_The_Fallen on February 23, 2009, 04:07:19 AMYes the other immigrants that came here didn't speak English but they at least tried to. Plus they did it the legal way through the government. Not jumping fences and dodging border control.
I'm not even American and I know for a fact that there were Dutch, German, Spanish, Swedish, Finnish and French speaking communities all over the country from pretty much its inception and especially after the revolution.
Also, the legal way to emigate back then was to get on a boat or a wagon and settle down in some land that was considered American. That's it. Can you really talk of legality if there was no law about this in the first place?
ZOOOM This is the correct Motorcycle.
The US didn't have a problem with 'illegal aliens' because the concept didn't Fucking Exist. If someone wanted to live here, they moved here and started contributing to society. As for people learning to speak english? What country are you from Seth? Insular communities that maintained their traditional heritage were all over the place AND STILL ARE.
For more laughs, go find some of the speeches by assholes from "The Know Nothing Party" compare their idiot ramblings with all the 'illegal immigrant' bullshit today. Xenophobia makes the same arguments even with centuries between them.
Quote from: Seth_The_Fallen on February 23, 2009, 04:07:19 AMPlus they did it the legal way through the government. Not jumping fences and dodging border control.
What does illegal immigration have to do with what language people speak amongst their peers?
Let's just keep in mind that what was burning your ass was people outside of Home Depot, speaking Spanish to each other. HOW DARE THEY.
Dude, I know plenty of LEGAL immigrants who speak their mother tongue when they're hanging out. My brother's girlfriend is a LEGAL immigrant, and when they're hanging out talking to each other they speak Spanish. Why shouldn't they? I mean, WTF.
Do you have a problem with American indians hanging around outside of Home Depot speaking Navajo?
ETA: I just realized you probably look at their brown skin and black hair and assume they're Mexicans.
It's funny...the US is one of the very few Westernized societies that doesn't have an official SPOKEN language.
I have to say Nigel's riding an exquisite motorcycle on her views there about who's entitled to their mother tongue and who isn't. Living in San Diego, you don't get the option of "English only." We used to BE Mexico--you know, Aztlan? Chicano politics started here, and I'm not about to naysay them as they have a powerfully understandable motive given the abuse a lot of Mexicans have taken and still take, from our government and from theirs.
You see, you have to be willing to educate those people in order to TEACH them Spanish. How many white "English-only" folks WANT the little brown children in their schools? Messing up their testing scores? Eh, not many. Immersion is key, but the price is one white folks can't always handle well.
The Mexicans here know English is their ticket to better jobs, but it takes time to learn, and not everyone is adept at learning languages. To their minds, they've been here for generations, and folks round here are the strangers, the aliens, not those from south of the border. The English-only crowd can only go so far around here without sounding absolutely ricockulous.
But that's th e whole point, I guess, is that language is really about COMMUNITY, not about COUNTRY. Fuck the notion that you're part of a nation because you speak its official language. It's not like, especially in the US, you can't survive without it. What's crucial, is what Squiddy pointed out--the willingness to communicate THROUGH the language barrier. Legislating a language is not the answer. Stressing skills to survive, yes.
Quote from: Seth_The_Fallen on February 23, 2009, 04:07:19 AM
Yes the other immigrants that came here didn't speak English but they at least tried to. Plus they did it the legal way through the government. Not jumping fences and dodging border control.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Cain and Rat summed it up nicely.
Please try to have half a clue of what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Jenne, you summarized the point I was trying to make much more clearly. If you live in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, or California, odds are that a lot of the Spanish-speaking residents come from families that were there before any English-speakers were.
There's a reason that the Texas Constitution protects the right for residents to speak Spanish. The whiners should learn it.
Interesting fact: the word "Yankee" is a corruption of the Dutch word for pirate, a term of abuse for early Americans, given for the incredible number of copyright infringements on the inventions of various European nations undertaken by the newly formed USA.
Wasn't "Yankee Doodle" originally written as an insult against the Americas?
Quote from: LMNO is now Shadowspear Demonhawk on February 26, 2009, 02:55:04 PM
Wasn't "Yankee Doodle" originally written as an insult against the Americas?
I think (it's been awhile) that we're not really sure where Yankee comes from (lots of theories), but the song Yankee Doodle was originally a british song pre-Revolution. The Americans proudly (durr) took it and made it their own by 1776.
Initially, I think it was making fun of the colonial military people that were always dressed in full regalia (the Macaroni reference in the song is a poke at that).
I was absent mindedly playing yankee doodle on a keyboard one christmas when my old grandmother started singing a totaly different song. I think the tune comes from an old English childrens song.
Quote from: Aufenthatt on March 01, 2009, 02:36:52 PM
I was absent mindedly playing yankee doodle on a keyboard one christmas when my old grandmother started singing a totaly different song. I think the tune comes from an old English childrens song.
Was it
Lucy Locket lost her pocket,
Kitty Fisher found it;
Not a penny was there in it,
Only ribbon 'round it.
?
No, but it was similar innane dribble.
Quote from: Cain on February 26, 2009, 02:16:13 PM
Interesting fact: the word "Yankee" is a corruption of the Dutch word for pirate, a term of abuse for early Americans, given for the incredible number of copyright infringements on the inventions of various European nations undertaken by the newly formed USA.
"pirate" in Dutch is just "piraat".
wikipedia sez:
QuoteThe most plausible derivation is from the Dutch first names "Jan" and "Kees." "Jan" and "Kees" were and still are common Dutch first names, and also common Dutch given names or nicknames. In many instances both names (Jan-Kees) are also used as a single first name in the Netherlands. The word Yankee in this sense would be used as a form of contempt, applied derisively to Dutch or English settlers in the New England states.[2] Another speculation suggests the Dutch form was Jan Kaas, "John Cheese", from the prevalence of dairy-farming among the Dutch, but this seems far-fetched. Michael Quinion and Patrick Hanks argue[4] that the term refers to the Dutch nickname and surname Janneke (from "Jan" and the diminutive "ke", meaning "Little John" or Johnny in dutch), anglicized to Yanke (the "J" is pronounced "Y" in dutch) and "used as a nickname for a Dutch-speaking American in colonial times". By extension, the term grew to include non-Dutch colonists as well. Another possible explanation is that the name "Kees", normally an abbreviation for "Cornelius" in Dutch, also means a monkey or baboon. This usage is still in use in Afrikaans. This means that that the origin of "Yankee" is "Jan Kees" or "John Baboon."
that "kees" also means monkey or baboon is news to me, but maybe in Afrikaans, it could be.