The main arguments against the BIP metaphor seem to be:
1) it's dark
2) people move, prisons don't
3) prisoners don't build their prisons
4) prisons can be escaped
This is my (gross hack) attempt at creating a (gross hack) metaphor to (kluge) patch this.
QuoteThe prison is not black iron. The prison you have been building from birth is made of legos.
Sure, when you're young, creating a house out of legos seemed like fun. You were enthusiastic. Perhaps you were brought up with one of the official instruction sheets, where if you followed the directions, you'd get the same lego motorhome as {jesus,muhamed,the good reverend roger}. Perhaps you were brought up without an instruction sheet and just stuck blocks together. Either way, you managed to build up a home around you (it can move, because it's one of these new-fangled super high power MindStorms kits with the biobattery, and you can even make it do simple tasks by itself like you see on the commercials! oh joy). Perhaps in your teenage years, in a fit of rage, you demolished some small bit of it and had to rebuild it in a different shape. Even so, it probably hasn't changed in a while. This is such a popular thing to do that you barely even notice anymore that you're living inside a house of tiny plastic bricks. Nobody really bothers to notice that you're in one either, and most days you can get by just by using the preprogrammed functions that you wrote during that weekend playing with the drag-and-drop programming thing when you were young.
But it's a bit boring in that lego house of yours, isn't it? You've been in the damned thing for how many years now? You've given up hope of getting out -- a little remodeling is fine, but trying to pry the bricks from those old, smooth inner walls is enough to make your fingers bleed. You've got everything you need in here anyway, right?
Well, you know... Just because you can't break through the walls in one go doesn't mean that you can't do some major remodeling over time. It's been a while since you did any of that stuff -- the preprogrammed functions have let you get through school, get through every day at the office... you hardly ever need to do anything that requires real thinking or real movement -- so of course you will have a rough time initially. For a while, it may seem like your own lego house is a prison or a death trap or some kind of macabre chapel perilous. But you made it, and you can take it apart.
First, open up a little moonroof. Let the sun in sometimes, and get a little more fresh air. Maybe try to brush up on those long-ignored mindstorms programming skills and add new automatic functions, or fix old ones, or remove ones you no longer need. You should remember that a lot of these were made when you were very little, and are both quite useless and very badly written. Perhaps maybe you can make it into a convertable, if you have time. And you have so much more time these days, now that you have the sun from the sunroof energizing you and the fresh air and your automatic functions are more useful and more optimized.
Hell, you can still ride around in the thing, right? You have your new and improved, souped up lego house. Leaving it, of course, would look ridiculous -- everyone of your age wears lego houses! You'd be naked without one, and crazy (you might get arrested for indecent exposure). I mean, sure, do it if you like, but it's way more fun just to pimp it out.
Just remember that some day, it will cease to be new and pimped out, and will become boring again. At that time, remember how you did a little fiddling and slowly changed your lego house into something that you're proud to drive around. It's easier now -- you have more practice.
Obviously this needs some work.
good start.. a variation on the "old fart" erector-set prison with a more recognizable toy/building material as its basis..
i need to move it to a text file to read properly i will get back to you with opinions/suggestions at some point.
"Maybe you'll never want to leave it in one shape for long afterwards."
Check out my Desert Outpost--I think it might have enough of something to grab onto.
We could always merge the two... Lego vehicle gangs in a postapocalyptic wasteland!
But that would kind of remove the point. I *was* going for an extension of the erector set thing, plus I was inspired by whoever it was who wrote that thing about legos for intermittens. Plus, I have metaprograms and imprints in there (yay). However, I'm unsure if many people will understand the idea of a race of naked people living in exoskeletons built out of lego mindstorms kits.
Quote from: Enki-][ on February 18, 2009, 02:43:29 AM
We could always merge the two... Lego vehicle gangs in a postapocalyptic wasteland!
But that would kind of remove the point. I *was* going for an extension of the erector set thing, plus I was inspired by whoever it was who wrote that thing about legos for intermittens. Plus, I have metaprograms and imprints in there (yay). However, I'm unsure if many people will understand the idea of a race of naked people living in exoskeletons built out of lego mindstorms kits.
The mindstorms idea's cool. Perhaps you could pull inspiration from the phrase "suits of psychic armor" in the Principia Piscordia. Remember, if it's in your mind, you should have control over it. These are the rules that bend, like that scene in the Matrix.
I didn't mean you should incorporate my model, I was just inviting you to critique mine.
the Lego prison=the physical limitations on perception, you always work with in the prison
walls = the connected ideas that limit your view of the world
the blocks= the ideas/thoughts your walls are made of
the construction i have built is the only right/valid one = a limitation (list some others?) on your ability to play/build with the toy of perception
tools/construction plans= things used to reshape the walls of perceptions (books mind fucks etc)
religion philosophy political ideology etc(list some more?)= names given to the blocks
all i got for now may need re-modeling definitely needs expansion..
I like the Lego Hut metaphor. I will use it from now on.
this may seem really superficial, but I'm having trouble buying in because it's inherently tied to a brand name - I mean, it's a cool brand, but nevertheless...
i had the same reaction back when it was first suggested i think i am getting over it, Lego is pretty generic now kinda like kleenex...
oops inspiration how about the logos block prison similar enough to make the connection to the toy but with the added connotation logos brings..
Quote from: fomenter on February 18, 2009, 03:35:06 AM
i had the same reaction back when it was first suggested i think i am getting over it, Lego is pretty generic now kinda like kleenex...
oops inspiration how about the logos block prison similar enough to make the connection to the toy but with the added connotation logos brings..
I like.
Btw, I was suggesting that most dogmatic religions/ideologies are like the booklets that tell you how to build specific types of lego things. Those booklets are surprisingly hard to follow, and I'd always get something that looked wrong, so I'd always build something from scratch, but other kids managed to build from the booklets just fine and never really needed to build anything that wasn't in them.
i wasn't convinced the model i used is the best it can use some work
the Logos prison=the physical limitations on perception, you always work with in the prison
walls = the connected ideas that limit your view of the world
the blocks= the ideas/thoughts your walls are made of
the construction i have built is the only right/valid one = a limitation (list some others?) on your ability to play/build with the toy of perception
tools/construction plans= things used to reshape the walls of perceptions (books mind fucks etc)
religion philosophy political ideology etc(list some more?)= names given to the walls the makeup of the walls are built from child hood (sometimes chosen for you)
all i got for now may need re-modeling definitely needs expansion..
small change to incorporate your ideas a bit still needs more work but i like so far..
Quote from: Phineas Poxwattle on February 18, 2009, 03:28:03 AM
this may seem really superficial, but I'm having trouble buying in because it's inherently tied to a brand name - I mean, it's a cool brand, but nevertheless...
Phineas,
If I were presenting the model within the narrative that it should be presented in, the brand name issue is just another rug to pull out from under the reader when you unveil the stack of megaBlocks in that shadowy corner of the prison. Wow, it's the set with all of the light up dragons and knights.. SWEEEEEEET.
Namaste
You asked for a critique, you said this needs work, so I'm treating this like a rough draft. Also, the plural of LEGO is LEGO. And it's always capitalized. The Danish Mafia will totally fucking kill you if you forget.
QuoteThe prison is not black iron. The prison you have been building from birth is made of legos.
This could be expanded on.
I built the prison? Doesn't the use of "building" imply intentionality? What was my motivation for building the house? Who gave me the LEGO?
Also, what is this a metaphor for? Plato opens the Allegory of the Cave with the line "And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened:" This told us what the metaphor is about, why we care about the cave. The Allegory of the Cave is an allegory about the human condition, about the difference between the enlightened and unenlightened.
QuoteSure, when you're young, creating a house out of legos seemed like fun. You were enthusiastic. Perhaps you were brought up with one of the official instruction sheets, where if you followed the directions, you'd get the same lego motorhome as {jesus,muhamed,the good reverend roger}. Perhaps you were brought up without an instruction sheet and just stuck blocks together.
Is it a house or a prison? I notice the whole essay works exactly the same either way. Mostly because you consistently use house instead of prison.
This could be combined with the introduction to help answer the questions raised. Also, is this house in my mind, or is it a literal physical house? I ask because of the use of motorhome and this:
QuoteEither way, you managed to build up a home around you (it can move, because it's one of these new-fangled super high power MindStorms kits with the biobattery, and you can even make it do simple tasks by itself like you see on the commercials! oh joy).
This is confusing. It can move? I assume you are talking about a metaphorical LEGO house. In my head. How does it move? What does that even mean? The LEGO house can do simple tasks? Like what? I don't see how this aside or the motorhome twist enhances the metaphor. If the LEGO house is all in my head (which it has to be, since I would have noticed if I'd spent my whole life in a literal LEGO house).
Also... MindStorm? Maybe you shouldn't assume the audience is familiar with the latest developments in LEGO products. You say LEGO and I think of the little colored blocks, not specific product lines. I have no idea what MindStorm is, and I don't want to go find out just so I can understand this essay.
QuotePerhaps in your teenage years, in a fit of rage, you demolished some small bit of it and had to rebuild it in a different shape. Even so, it probably hasn't changed in a while. This is such a popular thing to do that you barely even notice anymore that you're living inside a house of tiny plastic bricks.
'Kay. Alternately, "Perhaps in a fit of teenage rebellion, you demolished and rebuilt some small bit of it to convince yourself you think for yourself." Not everyone has teenage rage, but EVERYONE thinks they are smarter than their guardians and educators.
QuoteNobody really bothers to notice that you're in one either, and most days you can get by just by using the preprogrammed functions that you wrote during that weekend playing with the drag-and-drop programming thing when you were young.
You just mixed metaphors. Lego houses don't have preprogrammed functions and aren't constructed by drag-and-drop programming.
QuoteBut it's a bit boring in that lego house of yours, isn't it? You've been in the damned thing for how many years now? You've given up hope of getting out -- a little remodeling is fine, but trying to pry the bricks from those old, smooth inner walls is enough to make your fingers bleed. You've got everything you need in here anyway, right?
Good.
QuoteWell, you know... Just because you can't break through the walls in one go doesn't mean that you can't do some major remodeling over time.
Do you mean to imply that I can break through the walls eventually?
QuoteIt's been a while since you did any of that stuff -- the preprogrammed functions have let you get through school, get through every day at the office... you hardly ever need to do anything that requires real thinking or real movement -- so of course you will have a rough time initially. For a while, it may seem like your own lego house is a prison or a death trap or some kind of macabre chapel perilous. But you made it, and you can take it apart.
I'd remove the reference to Chapel Perilous as that has a fairly specific meaning, and there is no point in diluting that metaphor.
Also the reference to preprogrammed functions is busting your metaphor again.
QuoteFirst, open up a little moonroof. Let the sun in sometimes, and get a little more fresh air.
The second time you've implied there is something outside the house. I don't want to let a little sun in, I want to go outside! Why can't I go outside. Plato left me the option to leave the cave. Why can't I leave the house? Why even mention the outside you bastard? That's just fucking cruel.
I want to go out and play! I've been stuck in this damn LEGO house since I was a kid!
QuoteMaybe try to brush up on those long-ignored mindstorms programming skills and add new automatic functions, or fix old ones, or remove ones you no longer need. You should remember that a lot of these were made when you were very little, and are both quite useless and very badly written. Perhaps maybe you can make it into a convertable, if you have time. And you have so much more time these days, now that you have the sun from the sunroof energizing you and the fresh air and your automatic functions are more useful and more optimized.
I'm totally lost. Maybe if I knew what Mindstorms are?
QuoteHell, you can still ride around in the thing, right? You have your new and improved, souped up lego house. Leaving it, of course, would look ridiculous -- everyone of your age wears lego houses! You'd be naked without one, and crazy (you might get arrested for indecent exposure). I mean, sure, do it if you like, but it's way more fun just to pimp it out.
Even more lost. I still don't understand what riding around in my LEGO house maps to. I wear my LEGO house? Other people can see my LEGO house? What's going on? I'd be naked with out my house? What the fuck man?
YOU'RE BLOWING MY FUCKING MIND MAN.I'm driving around naked in my preprogrammed LEGO house that I built when I was a kid?
:?
Quote from: Enki-][ on February 18, 2009, 03:45:51 AM
Btw, I was suggesting that most dogmatic religions/ideologies are like the booklets that tell you how to build specific types of lego things. Those booklets are surprisingly hard to follow, and I'd always get something that looked wrong, so I'd always build something from scratch, but other kids managed to build from the booklets just fine and never really needed to build anything that wasn't in them.
It totally busts the LEGO metaphor, but reading your piece I was imaging LEGO blocks falling on a baby (maybe one year old, old enough to sit up) like Tetris blocks, and the baby having to build something, anything, with the blocks being tossed at it. Maybe they aren't LEGO per se, maybe they are those baby LEGO. Big simple ideas, easy to put together -- mom, dad, authority, love.
So what does it do? Naturally it stacks them in a wall. Since it can only reach so high, it has to build out. Because it can only reach so far, it must build around. Since it cannot move, it encircles itself.
As it grows, more and more blocks are thrown at it, more complex blocks. "Education." It could walk away, but there's a wall around them.
Eventually the blocks stop coming. Turns out they come in at an angle. Once you've built the wall up over your head, blocks just start bouncing off.
But then your MindStorm thing totally blew the image for me.
Also I
love that the whole thing is based on a trademarked toy that everyone is familiar with. It's very Andy Warhol. I want to see this turned into an animation or photoseries.with LEGO people.
ETA: Crap. I forgot one of the things I wanted to say re: blueprints.
Okay, the whole spiel up there? About the baby forced to build a wall of blocks or be buried under them? Well it's the parents, educators, media and peers throwing the blocks. Most people end up with a bias towards certain colors -- Americans will get a heavy mix of Red, White and Blue bricks -- but some people will get REALLY heavily biased block mixes. Their parents, teachers, peers and authority figures are all chucking the same color block.
Maybe they're all White blocks. Fundie parents, homeschooling, church, "I only read books about the bible." Maybe they're all Green blocks and the only way out is to blow yourself up and collect 72 virgins.
My parents mostly through me black, red, and tie-dyed blocks. Stupid hippies.
Quotewhat is this a metaphor for?
The limitations of perception created by the way you interpreted incoming data in the past.
QuoteAlso, is this house in my mind, or is it a literal physical house?
The house
is your mind (or your personality, that depends on your definition).
QuoteAlso... MindStorm? Maybe you shouldn't assume the audience is familiar with the latest developments in LEGO products. You say LEGO and I think of the little colored blocks, not specific product lines. I have no idea what MindStorm is, and I don't want to go find out just so I can understand this essay.
Heh i had the same problem, but i used my imagination to get some idea of what LEGO + robotics would look like. It's a trick to force the reader to engage their mind.
Quote'Kay. Alternately, "Perhaps in a fit of teenage rebellion, you demolished and rebuilt some small bit of it to convince yourself you think for yourself." Not everyone has teenage rage, but EVERYONE thinks they are smarter than their guardians and educators.
:mittens: (normally i only use mittens for good posts, not just a single point, but i know how you feel about people responding with mittens so i couldn't stop myself.)
QuoteQuoteWell, you know... Just because you can't break through the walls in one go doesn't mean that you can't do some major remodeling over time.
Do you mean to imply that I can break through the walls eventually?
This is a limitation of all BIP metaphores.
QuoteQuoteIt's been a while since you did any of that stuff -- the preprogrammed functions have let you get through school, get through every day at the office... you hardly ever need to do anything that requires real thinking or real movement -- so of course you will have a rough time initially. For a while, it may seem like your own lego house is a prison or a death trap or some kind of macabre chapel perilous. But you made it, and you can take it apart.
I'd remove the reference to Chapel Perilous as that has a fairly specific meaning, and there is no point in diluting that metaphor.
QuoteChapel Perilous is the state of confusion that occurs when your rational view of the world is broken; broken by drugs, by various aesthetic practices or by so-called mental illness.
This chapel?
That sounds like what happens when a rationalist realizes that he only is rational because he was taught/taught himself that rationalism was the best way. This fits perfectly with the BIP and by extension with this metaphore.
QuoteQuoteFirst, open up a little moonroof. Let the sun in sometimes, and get a little more fresh air.
The second time you've implied there is something outside the house. I don't want to let a little sun in, I want to go outside! Why can't I go outside. Plato left me the option to leave the cave. Why can't I leave the house? Why even mention the outside you bastard? That's just fucking cruel.
I want to go out and play! I've been stuck in this damn LEGO house since I was a kid!
You can't, without the house as reference and filter the outside world doesn't make sense at all.
QuoteQuoteMaybe try to brush up on those long-ignored mindstorms programming skills and add new automatic functions, or fix old ones, or remove ones you no longer need. You should remember that a lot of these were made when you were very little, and are both quite useless and very badly written. Perhaps maybe you can make it into a convertable, if you have time. And you have so much more time these days, now that you have the sun from the sunroof energizing you and the fresh air and your automatic functions are more useful and more optimized.
I'm totally lost. Maybe if I knew what Mindstorms are?
The habits and mannerisms you formed in your youth are an example of the automatic functions here.
Quote from: Regret on February 18, 2009, 10:31:48 AM
Quotewhat is this a metaphor for?
The limitations of perception created by the way you interpreted incoming data in the past.
Okay. I don't think this is a good metaphor for that.
QuoteQuoteAlso, is this house in my mind, or is it a literal physical house?
The house is your mind (or your personality, that depends on your definition).
Wait. The house is a metaphor for my mind? I totally don't see that.
QuoteQuoteAlso... MindStorm? Maybe you shouldn't assume the audience is familiar with the latest developments in LEGO products. You say LEGO and I think of the little colored blocks, not specific product lines. I have no idea what MindStorm is, and I don't want to go find out just so I can understand this essay.
Heh i had the same problem, but i used my imagination to get some idea of what LEGO + robotics would look like. It's a trick to force the reader to engage their mind.
It's a trick to force readers to look up a toy on the internet. :sad:
QuoteQuoteDo you mean to imply that I can break through the walls eventually?
This is a limitation of all BIP metaphores.
Which is a really good reason to find another metaphor.
Structures are good metaphors for things people are inside, and can leave. If you're describing something you can't go inside and can't leave, a metaphor other than a structure metaphor is called for.
QuoteQuoteI'd remove the reference to Chapel Perilous as that has a fairly specific meaning, and there is no point in diluting that metaphor.
[quoteChapel Perilous is the state of confusion that occurs when your rational view of the world is broken; broken by drugs, by various aesthetic practices or by so-called mental illness.
This chapel?
That sounds like what happens when a rationalist realizes that he only is rational because he was taught/taught himself that rationalism was the best way. This fits perfectly with the BIP and by extension with this metaphore.[/quote]
Chapel Perilous is not a state of confusion -- though confusion is a common reaction. Chapel Perilous is the state where all meaning is destroyed. When one escapes the Black Iron Prison (RAW Model), one ends up in Chapel Perilous. Chapel Perilous is called such because if you don't make it through you can end up a burned-out braincase.
The best explanation ever: When Father Tom molested Timmy, Timmy realized everything his parents,peers and priests believed was a lie. Hurled out of the Black Iron Prison into a world without meaning, into Chapel Perilous, Timmy finds himself unable to cope with the freedom
which is when he realized he was really a dragon. And back in the Black Iron Prison he goes.
Most people who attempt a jail break get lost in Chapel Perilous and end up back in the Prison. Others make it through, seek out friends, and create a TAZ (Temporary Autonomous Zone) in which they can experiment with creative order and disorder. Some choose to live in the TAZ, others note its easier to survive in the BIP and take advantage of their guest pass to slip the walls when there are no inmates around.
QuoteI want to go out and play! I've been stuck in this damn LEGO house since I was a kid!
You can't, without the house as reference and filter the outside world doesn't make sense at all.[/quote]
But then the house is not like a house. So the metaphor doesn't make much sense.
A window might make more sense, and in fact I've seen a window used as a metaphor to explain these concepts VERY effectively. I'll see if I can find my essay on the subject.
QuoteThe habits and mannerisms you formed in your youth are an example of the automatic functions here.
I can't help but notice that RAW's Robot model would seem to work a bit better to get these same ideas across. Robots, like houses, are constructed. Robots, unlike house, don't contain people. Robots are also programmable and reprogrammable. Finally, if you are a robot you can't escape the robot.
I suppose I only know what LEGO Mindstorms is because I've been a robotics junkie from a young age... That bit could use some work, certainly. It makes a lot more sense once you consider that the lego house has motors and sensors and programmed functions.
Btw, the name is really bad. It's more like a lego exoskeleton, and the implication is that one day it became so popular that *everyone* had to have one. Like I said, it's an attempt to work out the kinks in the BIP metaphor. The automatic functions are more or less like metaprograms for early circuit imprints, and habits that have become nearly automatic.
If someone can think of some equivalent that is more well-known than LEGO Mindstorms, be my guest. Someone suggested K'NEX, but I'm only vaguely aware of that brand and I don't think they have programmable functions unless you build a mechanical computer out of them.
enki try to ignore DK tempts to crap on your thread, he is being critical of something in almost every post he has made at pd. if you can stomach the stench of troll read his shit stain for the rare legitimate questions and dismiss the rest
bip type metaphors are complex and not likely to show up in a fully developed form.
i am thinking of a fun house, retracting and shifting walls unlimited movement within, after learning how to turn the lego/logos prison into the lego fun house, is an idea to consider
i am going to reread some bip stuff to get a better pic of how the metaphor should work since it is essentially a rework of the bip where the cells bars etc are replaced with a building block lego description to make them more recognisably something that can be changed manipulated..
wrong formenter you should only posts just for something to gawk at
there are no legitimate questions in there... at least not any good ones
I think that it's a legitimate complaint that someone who had never heard of Mindstorms and hasn't played with legos since the nineteen seventies may be entirely unaware of the idea and at odds with the notion of programmable motorized lego exoskeletons. However, I can't think of anything comparable that works any better, and you kind of have to be living under a rock and/or not on the tubes in order not to be aware of mindstorms, so I think it's probably just fine for now to use it, since it adds so much to the metaphor.
to be fair all metaphors are going to have specific audiences... Not sure if your going to find one that will have universal appeal.
Quote from: Enki-][ on February 18, 2009, 05:31:04 PM
I think that it's a legitimate complaint that someone who had never heard of Mindstorms and hasn't played with legos since the nineteen seventies may be entirely unaware of the idea and at odds with the notion of programmable motorized lego exoskeletons. However, I can't think of anything comparable that works any better, and you kind of have to be living under a rock and/or not on the tubes in order not to be aware of mindstorms, so I think it's probably just fine for now to use it, since it adds so much to the metaphor.
i am not familiar with mind storm and got the reference in spite of it, the question is mind storm programmable robots vs sticking with a modified bip for a GSP version
the mind storm is more in line with the vehicle model not necessarily a bad thing and a strong GSP metaphor in its own right
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on February 18, 2009, 05:34:34 PM
to be fair all metaphors are going to have specific audiences... Not sure if your going to find one that will have universal appeal.
this
also read most resent additions to the BIP thread talking about alternative/companion metaphors
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on February 18, 2009, 05:34:34 PM
to be fair all metaphors are going to have specific audiences... Not sure if your going to find one that will have universal appeal.
MODEL FUCKING AGNOSTICISM!
;-)
I agree... that's why I'd like to see the "Golden Sphere of Possibility" cover the golden sphere of possible models and metaphors for people to compare/contrast and choose amongst (or to get inspired, dump our lame ass shit and build their own).
I liked the mindstorms bit because
1) it attacks the complaint about a prison staying in one place
2) it incorporates the idea of metaprogramming, and the reasons for wanting to re-imprint
In that sense, it combines the BIP/GSP with the Broken Robots model. I like that.
However, if people can't figure out how the broken robots model's territory is addressed in it, that sort of invalidates the point of having it in there, right? I realize that any model will not appeal to everyone, however, a model is kind of useless if it only makes sense to a couple people on a forum and only in the context of other models which it doesn't actually directly add utility to. It's like a map of the map that only makes any sense if you know the original map inside-out, and doesn't even necessarily make sense then because it uses different terms in a language you've never heard of.
(And now I'm making a map of why my map of a map would be useless if it was deemed to refer to a different map than I intended it to, so I'll stop before I hit an infinite regress situation)
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 18, 2009, 05:47:41 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on February 18, 2009, 05:34:34 PM
to be fair all metaphors are going to have specific audiences... Not sure if your going to find one that will have universal appeal.
MODEL FUCKING AGNOSTICISM!
;-)
I agree... that's why I'd like to see the "Golden Sphere of Possibility" cover the golden sphere of possible models and metaphors for people to compare/contrast and choose amongst (or to get inspired, dump our lame ass shit and build their own).
aren't you the originator of the vehicle model?
Quote from: Enki-][ on February 18, 2009, 05:50:21 PM
I liked the mindstorms bit because
1) it attacks the complaint about a prison staying in one place
2) it incorporates the idea of metaprogramming, and the reasons for wanting to re-imprint
In that sense, it combines the BIP/GSP with the Broken Robots model. I like that.
However, if people can't figure out how the broken robots model's territory is addressed in it, that sort of invalidates the point of having it in there, right? I realize that any model will not appeal to everyone, however, a model is kind of useless if it only makes sense to a couple people on a forum and only in the context of other models which it doesn't actually directly add utility to. It's like a map of the map that only makes any sense if you know the original map inside-out, and doesn't even necessarily make sense then because it uses different terms in a language you've never heard of.
(And now I'm making a map of why my map of a map would be useless if it was deemed to refer to a different map than I intended it to, so I'll stop before I hit an infinite regress situation)
the attack on the prison is that the bars and cells are a fixed immovable feature of a prison . the building blocks Lego's address that by being movable/possible to tear down and reconstruct for your own needs/amusement.
I like this very much with only two minor quibbles.
1) There's a bit of bouncing between lego prison, lego house, lego vehicle and lego clothing(?) within the space of a couple sentences. I think all of those metaphors apply, but maybe the story would benefit from a comment about how the lego prison can be transformed into a Lego house/vehicle/clothes etc... or even that you have a lego house and a lego car and a lego suit and a lego life ;-)
2) I'd shy away from 'chapel perilous' as described in the initial post. The term Chapel Perilous has a lot of existing connotations particularly from Cosmic Trigger series and Antero's Angel Tech (awesome book by the way). It's generally a reference to the place where you lose all certainty. Where everything you know is challenged, questioned and you come out crazy, paranoid, screaming into the arms of the first cult/belief system you can find... or you never realize that you're there and you stand around in the foyer for a couple decades before you die.
I like the piece, but I'd use a different word so its not confusing to people that already have a semantic association with that label. ;-)
I think this is a great metaphor!
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 18, 2009, 06:19:50 PM
I like this very much with only two minor quibbles.
1) There's a bit of bouncing between lego prison, lego house, lego vehicle and lego clothing(?) within the space of a couple sentences. I think all of those metaphors apply, but maybe the story would benefit from a comment about how the lego prison can be transformed into a Lego house/vehicle/clothes etc... or even that you have a lego house and a lego car and a lego suit and a lego life ;-)
2) I'd shy away from 'chapel perilous' as described in the initial post. The term Chapel Perilous has a lot of existing connotations particularly from Cosmic Trigger series and Antero's Angel Tech (awesome book by the way). It's generally a reference to the place where you lose all certainty. Where everything you know is challenged, questioned and you come out crazy, paranoid, screaming into the arms of the first cult/belief system you can find... or you never realize that you're there and you stand around in the foyer for a couple decades before you die.
I like the piece, but I'd use a different word so its not confusing to people that already have a semantic association with that label. ;-)
I think this is a great metaphor!
i agree we seem to be working two or more metaphors simaltaniously for clarity purposes i would be inclined to separate the vehicle/robot from the Lego prison/fun house
in the lego prison/lego fun house the chapel perilous could be used in its original context as the chaotic point where you have torn the walls down and before you learn to reshape rebuild on your own (or throw up the first cult/wall belief system you come across )
i would hesitate to throw complexity into the metaphor before the basic layout is determined i would leave trying to fit chapel perilous for later it may not be needed
I think functionally it becomes a lego exoskeleton. However, if you just outright say that, fewer people will understand it than saying that it's a moving house that you never leave and that has programmable robot arms.
i think the Lego fun-house/prison model, like the black iron prison doesn't need an outside (= undifferentiated chaos?) the walls are our filters that makes order out of it, the ability to tear down, mix and match and rebuild walls is the freedom, the escape from prison and the entrance in to the fun house world
Is it the week for alternative BIP metaphors :lulz:
I like it allot. Personally i would go for the Lego house/funhouse one as appose to the clothing/vehicle one but as someone said earlier, everyone is going to have a metaphor that suits them better than someone else. I like the idea that the house is constantly changing, being added to and rebuilt, and that it takes conscious effort to rebuild or change the house (which can be seen as the workings of the subconscious?) in the way that we want it to be rather than just letting it change on autopilot in the way we are conditioned to think by the government etc.
:)
Enki, I hadnt read this yet, and I like it. I like it a lot!
I'd sooner go with "moving house with programmable robot arms" cause it sounds more playful than "exoskeleton", and playfulness is part of the appeal in your piece (for me).
What also could work (and what you have actually done) is to refer to it as a solid house first, explain how, naturally, you make moving parts into it, a while later you have embellished the house that it can indeed move around, and then address it at some point as "the house, which is actually more like a mechanical suit by now,".
I think you could pull off a changing metaphor. Not as a theory, but as an interesting writing idea. It'll engage people's imagination and challenge them to be more lose about the metaphor. Making the descriptions visual and vivid will probably help. Anyway, just an idea.
Quote from: Phineas T. Poxwattle on February 18, 2009, 03:28:03 AMthis may seem really superficial, but I'm having trouble buying in because it's inherently tied to a brand name - I mean, it's a cool brand, but nevertheless...
but it's Lego! :)
seriously, i dunno if this might help, but I heard that the Lego system either has recently or will soon enter the public domain (or the patent expires or something). Meaning that other companies are allowed to create bricks and things that are compatible with the Lego system and are allowed to advertise it as such. when this happens, the term Lego will begin to refer (in popular language) to that system of bricks, with which you can build ANYTHING, instead of the brand name.
also I think it would be very hard to come up with a metaphor or something that is just as evocative of a very DIY, playful, but completely customized system. at least, something that nearly everybody is familiar with building and playing with. you can say "I built this machine" or "computer" or "mechanical device made from planks of wood, tape and wire", but the reality is that it's less familiar to people because not much of them have actually built a machine or computer, but almost everyone has played with Lego, right? which is another thing I like about the metaphor.
That would be cool, the public domain thing. I used to have boxes and boxes of lego. Probably still got them somewhere, makes me want to find them and build a space ship...
...must... resist. :mrgreen:
Quote from: fomenter on February 18, 2009, 05:12:35 PM
enki try to ignore DK tempts to crap on your thread, he is being critical of something in almost every post he has made at pd.
Enki specifically asked me to come to this thread and critique his post. So I did.
Accusing me of trolling or attempting to crap on his thread for doing the favorhe asked of me?
Dirty fucking pool, man! Dirty pool!
Quote from: Dead Kennedy on February 21, 2009, 10:59:28 PM
Quote from: fomenter on February 18, 2009, 05:12:35 PM
enki try to ignore DK tempts to crap on your thread, he is being critical of something in almost every post he has made at pd.
Enki specifically asked me to come to this thread and critique his post. So I did.
Accusing me of trolling or attempting to crap on his thread for doing the favorhe asked of me?
Dirty fucking pool, man! Dirty pool!
yeah man, i mean totally
Quote from: Dead Kennedy on February 18, 2009, 10:59:52 AM
The best explanation ever: When Father Tom molested Timmy, Timmy realized everything his parents,peers and priests believed was a lie. Hurled out of the Black Iron Prison into a world without meaning, into Chapel Perilous, Timmy finds himself unable to cope with the freedom which is when he realized he was really a dragon.
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k311/bluedragon6920/Fuck_you_i27m_a_dragon.jpg)
Quote from: Dead Kennedy on February 21, 2009, 10:59:28 PM
Quote from: fomenter on February 18, 2009, 05:12:35 PM
enki try to ignore DK tempts to crap on your thread, he is being critical of something in almost every post he has made at pd.
Enki specifically asked me to come to this thread and critique his post. So I did.
Accusing me of trolling or attempting to crap on his thread for doing the favorhe asked of me?
Dirty fucking pool, man! Dirty pool!
This is the same type of double standards that they have employed all through Bildo's Regime, tossed daily in R&R towards Bush W for 8 years, and now they can't take a taste of their own. Just a taste as there is no where near the spew that they put out on a daily basis. Remember that, a daily basis, you punks have desecrated the flag, the office of the President, our Freedoms that are for all, and you are the biggest Racists, sexists and ageists that I have ever seen. Even the KKK are not as blatant as you have been. That is sick.
I guess if you do something enough as a group, sheep or lemmings, it is right.
That must explain why the innocent life of a baby is less than that of a convicted killer.
That must explain why it is okay to send troops to Afghanistan but not to Iraq. (Hey maroons, there were WMDs there prior to our invasion. Ask Iran they were used on them, or the Iraqi people as they were used on them, of those truck drives that were seen in pictures prior to our invasion to Free Iraq as they took days to drive all this stuff in an on going convoy to Syria, or you could ask the Al Quida terrorists that were training in many small camps in Iraqi land and also that HUGE Fucking Base they had on the border of Iraq and Iran lead by Osama's Mentor, or you can ask Hitlerly as she sure made the quotes to say that we had to go in there and get those WMDs!!!)
That must explain why Socialists think Bush W is responsible for the economy as it is now even though Bildo ran it into the ground in his later term with the help of Socialist lead Congress. THEN 911 happened and it went to shit but Bush W did things even with out the help and ONLY Hindrance from the Left Lead Congress. Who was at that same time fucking up Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae good old Frank who didn't know a prostitution ring was running out of his house for 1.5 Years and that same maroon, along with Pelosi and Reid and Daschle, ran our economy into the ground as it is Right Now.
That same Double Standard also explains why Socialists are so Politically Correct, PC, and yet can't get past being racists, sexists, ageists, unable to use their degrees and education intelligently but can only mouth and spew what their professors have indoctrinated them with even up into middle age and beyond.
That must explain why they can vehemently continue ranting and raving the same old shit that was spewed even before they were born and has been proven wrong, oh, so wrong, multiple times through the ages. Home schooling is popular and is so wide spread because Common Sense prevails to those that take that step. You know, think on their own.
The Socialists reliance upon Double Standards must explain why they think it is truth because of more than one source even though all sources they use are one in the same it's just the same thing repeated over and over. This is not Verification but that is what they can only see it as. Peer Group Puppies explains this, they follow the loudest puppy at that time, no thought just reaction. If any Source outside of their realm, Control, is then deemed by them to be untrue and not a Viable Source. This is what and why they continually claim you have to have a Viable Source linked to what ever you say or do. Drug addicts, alcoholics, gangs and even Chimps in the wild and tamed follow this thoughtless pattern. Picture a box full of spinning tops. When one starts to slow down the others jump on it and force it to spin more or they Shun it. They think, adopt, the idea that spinning is the only focus and it is more important than what is really going on. That they are in a box cut off from the rest of the world. But they are happy, well, functioning, as they rely up on their Spin.
This Double Standard emotional and rational reliance by the Socialists explains why and how they can rationalize saying that Reagan slept during his Cabinet Meetings even though he never once did this but was a relentless go getter that drove his administration to work harder and longer than others. Anyone that went to his Cabinet Meetings knew they were there for long periods of time because he was always on the go and one or many steps ahead of everyone else there. He had some of the brightest minds at that time in our society working with him. But yet Obama can't even hold a Cabinet Meeting that gets even 10% of what he has promised to do done.
This must explain why the Socialists also claim that Bush W is illiterate even though he has for a long time been a huge reader. No, not TV Guide or The Enquire like Socialists are fond of, but novels, History volumes, University level reading that would normally be found in that level of learning if there were no Socialistic simpleton Professors in the majority of the Universities in the USA. And yet the Socialists can't explain why Obama can't write a speech that stands out or quote anyone other than his Chicago Cronies, Thugs, Political Bums that have corrupted Politics and Life in General in Illinois for decades. I was born in Chicago.
This Double Standards thing with the Socialist must explain why Bush W was hounded for spending $42 Million on his first inaugural by the Left Wing Corrupted Media and Obama Nation was praised for his spending of $120 Million, or $150 Million, or was it over $170 Million for his paid for inaugural. You just can't tell as no one knew or still knows how much money was paid out. Tax Payer's Money that is.
This Double Standard must also explain how Socialists can rationalize saying that there were over 2 Million people at Obama Nation's inaugural when in reality there were less than 800,000. Some of these maroon even claim that there were over 3 Million people there. Where did they get this 2 Million mark? From the Left Wing Corrupted Media that they plug into for brain waves daily.
This Double Standard must be the explanation how Bush W is still blamed for New Orleans not getting the help it needed from the beginning even though it is well documented and was even reported fully by the Left Wing Corrupted Media sources that the Corrupt Governor of Louisiana and the Corrupt Still There Mayor of New Orleans kept saying they didn't need help each and every time that they were asked this by Federal, Military, and even people from FEMA and Bush W's administration. The Mayor CHOOSE NOT TO USE THE BUSES THAT WERE RIGHT THERE to safely and timely bring to safety all those people stuck in the city that were mainly Black and poor. All other areas that were hit by Katrina, and way harder too, were well on the way to being rescued by FEMA, the Navy, National Guard, Coast Guard and many other Federal agencies. The TRUTH is that that Governor and that Mayor blew it because they thought they could squeak by and save money. Now most of the Federal Monies went to New Orleans than else where in that region even though New Orleans was hit the least of them all. This was due to the same two jerks that some how have still not managed to disperse those monies to help those in need. How many years has it been? Corruption abounds there almost as badly as it does in Chicago or where Ted Kennedy holds court, that huge sucking hole there. All of this explained away by denial and silence and pointing the finger at Bush W. No sense what so ever but hey enough Socialists said it was so and this means it is so.
This Double Standard excuse and use and abuse must explain why the Socialists want, no DEMAND, a Fairness Doctrine because business by demand companies are making a profit on AM radio with simple talk shows talking about Politics and all of the Socialistic run AM radio talk shows went out of business due to a lack of listeners. If what they spew, the Socialists, held any water their AM radio talk shows would have prospered but they haven't. They couldn't retain sponsorship, that's how they make money, due to extremely low rates of listeners across the country. Still, these maroons, the Socialists, are DEMANDING that they get fair air times. Let's see, they have control of at least 6 of the major media outlets, CNN, NPR, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, and many others, and there is only one, FOX, that reports and entertains with a right wing slant. If there was a true Fairness Doctrine needed it would be to ensure that equal amounts of air time were given to both sides which would mean there would be many more companies like FOX that would have to be made up and or the Left Wing media outlets would have to stop doing what they are doing and report reality instead of propaganda. Oh, and then there would also have to be equal airing of all the other factions of political veins of thought too. Well, this just can't be true because the Socialists just haven't heard this in their daily plug ins.
The Double Standard standard used by the Socialists must explain why they can not see how a Pork filled Bill will not help stimulate the economy but in fact, you wait and see, why and how it will hurt our economy and we will be long dead before this is paid for. Even you 20 somethings. They haven't thought about this as they just can't. That box that fortifies Double Standards. Monkey See, Monkey Do!
The Socialist's reliance upon Double Standards helps explain away their undying wailing away at taking guns away from citizens because to them this equates that guns kill. Following, using, this line of logic means that all pens, pencils, anything you can write with needs to be abolished and removed from society. Also means that we need to get rid of cars as they kill way more people than guns do. And more, the non use of tooth brushes kill teeth, and the non use of floss kills teeth! We should abolish both of them! Slipping in your bath tub kills elderly daily so we should abolish and remove from society all bath tubs. Some people are allergic to shellfish, peanuts, some fruits, other foods, so we should abolish and remove all of these from our society. This can go on and on and doesn't make any sense but these maroon Socialists hold onto it like it's their motto. They put no thought into it. People kill people and shit happens. (that means accidents happen like falling in your tub at home which is a death sentence to the elderly who out number most people under 50) So stupidly following the Socialists train of logic on this subject would only do harm as the criminals would be armed and our military and police. Gone would personal safety be, against criminals and for personal safety and defense if we should have to rise as a nation and follow our God Given Constitutional Right to bear arms. It's in the Constitution. Not like killing Babies was misconstrued into law by sick minds.
Which brings up how this Double Standard abuse makes the Socialist mind unable to rationalize the innocence of an unborn Baby's safety is more important than that of a convicted killers. Hey you Maroons, they are not equal either. The convicted killers are not nice people and they chose to do what they were convicted of. Good for DNA sources to prove some innocent but they are a minority, a very small minority, as compared to those you want to coddle. You, you Socialists, want to be known as a society that kills babies but swoons over and coddles convicted killers that are on death row. In the moment when those babies are at their most vulnerable that lasts 9 months you want to be able to kill them for your own personal selfish desires. Don't you even, can't you even, start to see how bad that makes you and our society look? Think about it, if you can. This is one of the sickest things you have done to our society and you are so deep into denial over it you can't even rationally, objectively, view it. Shame on you. (That doesn't mean anything to do with Christian religion. It is just pure shame that is normal for humans to feel that you push away each and every day and you vent it onto others that don't follow your Spin.)
This Double Standard reliance is supposed to explain away all the tax evading politicians and cronies that stick to Obama Nation like dried shit.
This Double Standard mental sickness evident reliance explains away why Golden Parachutes and Pork was supposed to be taken out of the so called Stimulus Bill but were put in right before it was voted through even though only the amount that can be counted on one hand had read it as compared to the MILLIONS that are citizens here that were not allowed to read it before it was voted through. This was even illegal as it went against the laws of showing it to all and everyone having time to read it and act upon it. Pelosi was said to have to have it voted on soon so she could go some where and get an award or some stupid shit like that. Also Obama Nation spewed his most hated form of intimidation, FEAR MONGERING, onto all of us repeatedly leading up to this. Something he promised and vowed never ever, ever, never, ever to do but did it with in the first weeks of his first and only term as President. What a liar he is.
This Double Standard reliance explains why ACORN and other corrupt Chicago and Illinois elements are stinking up Washington DC and our government but nothing is being done about it other than dumping money into ACORN and others like it. Corruption? Oh, yea, big time. Explains why the Governor of Washington all of a sudden found new ballots, later turned out to be from people that were dead before the ballots were printed up or even thought of, that won her the election and only after multiple recounts that proved she lost and also following big old Meany Hitlerly and her cronies stepping in and Helping Out in the ways they only know how. Corruption? Oh, yea, more big times.
This Double Standard reliance also explains away Pelosi's corrupt use, abuse, of Tax Payer's money to fund her favorite things. She also abused laws and made it so American Somoa was exempt from the minimum wage increase in 2007 so her husband's stock in Star-Kist wouldn't be affected and then she made sure $33 Million went into the Stimulus Bill as an economic development credit in American Somoa. Not to mention her many other Pet Projects for her home town area. No jobs were created but she is richer and so are her friends. That should be good enough for us simpletons.
This Double Standard train of thought and reliance explains away how Obama Nation can change the laws so he can take control of the Census which will give his Socialistic Party control in the future because he will be able to manipulate how many and how much power representatives politically can exist through out our nation. No one else has done this on a nation wide stance because it is unethical. Politics as usual in the Chicago and Illinois area so that makes it okay now.
This Double Standard reliance explains away how Bush W was accused of using an ear piece because he needed to have people tell him what to say even though he never used one and never thought of using one. Obama Nation now is going to use one and it is peachy keen to have that happen. Oh, that just stinks. It's reported by the Left Wing Corrupt Media outlets that this is to help Obama make sure that he doesn't say something wrong. Oh, man, the irony of that and it all goes over the heads of the Socialists that drool over Obama Nation.
This Double Standard reliance explains away how Obama Nation says, "It's a Great Pleasure to Be Here in Iowa... Ottawa" while currently on his trip north to Canada to lie to them about fair and equal trade. Yet constantly Bush W was portrayed as bungling each and every speech he has ever given.
This Double Standard reliance explains why Socialists across the nation have for years have used slogan embossed bumper stickers telling everyone how to live their lives and trying to put guilt or shame on those that don't follow their brainless drooling chimp march, Monkey See Monkey Do. Yet someone just got pulled over and arrested for a bumper sticker that was anti-Obama Nation! WTF!! Yea, that just seems hunky dory for Socialists as it fits in their double standard realm of denial.
This Double Standard reliance explains why the Socialists seem to think it's okay that even after Obama Nation's Porkulus Bill was passed and signed into existence and the DOW has gone down even more and not just marginally but very low and is expected to go even lower as there was no Stimulus from Obama Nation's pet bill. Yet, when Bush W took office he did many things to help the economy and it rose and kept rising and holding growing slowly but surely from the start of his two terms even though he had to, along with Hitlerly, Ted the murder raper, Reid, Daschle, Frank and the other Thugs pushing to go to war in retaliation for 911. You know, like when he did go to war first in Afghanistan and then Iraq with much Left Wing pressures to do so, remember Hitlerly their leader at the time and her and Kerry's assurance that there were WMDs in Iraq and they had to be taken out now.
Oh, this Double Standard thing can just go on and on. Most likely I will have to post two postings to fit all of this in and I haven't even addressed all that there is!
Double Standard reliance explains from all sides the behavior of the Elite Socialists as even a child can see them for what they are to the oldest adult and also from the Elite Socialists side that envelopes them in a cocoon that helps them emotionally survive. That would be called Denial.
These Chimp pictures will persist only because they seem to fit. Sure, some see the racism in them but mostly it is Monkey See Monkey Do that is being projected and you would think the Socialists, who are the most angry over this, would see this. Must be blinded by their denial and reliance on Double Standards. Oh, Monkey See Monkey Do!
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