Those of you who know my reading habits probably know I am not the greatest fan of fantasy writing in history, unless it is exceptional (see: Terry Pratchett, George RR Martin, Tolkein and Gaiman for more). Therefore, it only seems fit to parody the fuck out of the genre.
The idea I had, while stewing in late-stage insomnia last night, was elegantly simple: Have the usual fantasy setting, the 'evil' kingdom, the 'good' one, the ancient religion, hidden royal bloodline and all that usual crap...and then portray the "hero" as a sociopathic loose cannon with a chip on his shoulder and unreasonable sense of entitlement, who brings two said nations to the brink of war, merely to satisfy his own racist, messianic, authoritarian wet dreams (which most fantasy "heroes" have, when you strip away Authorial Intent and Implied Character Traits).
Instead, the real heroes would be the diplomats, spies, courtiers, mercenaries and other usual ensemble bad guys for the genre, who try and keep the peace while the fuckhead hero is intent on creating a devestating war which could plunge the region into complete chaos. You know, the people actually trying to stop a war entirely, instead of glorifying in its bloodshed.
Naturally, it needs fleshing out, but that is the basic premise.
I'm sold
Oh sweet.
This sociopathic "hero" is celebrated and treated as a hero by the rest of the populace, I'm assuming? And the real protagonists are the ones who see him for what he really is?
I'm already chuckling.
Okay, quick brainstorm for the setting:
The "good" kingdom is Glamaria, while the "evil" kingdom is Atathraxis (here I'm attempting to satisfy the trope that good things have lilting names while the evil things have phonically harsh names).
Atathraxis is ruled by an evil emperor. Glamaria is ruled by a generally good king along with a well-intentioned but indecisive and petty council of nobles/elders.
Am I being generic enough?
DO EET.
Will buy.
Sounds like a good idea.
It vaguely reminds me of the way that Sir Lancelot is portrayed in Spamalot and Monty Python and the Holy Grail (its also a bit reminiscent of the musical Wicked). All of these things that it reminds me of are things that I like, by the way.
I would like to see a whole novel taken in this direction, especially if its well written.
Sounds like an awesome plan. :mrgreen:
This would not only make a good book, but I think it'd also make a great premise for an RPG plot.
I really enjoy morally confusing stories. It always depresses me when the "right" thing to do is plain as day.
This sounds awesome.
Books where the main characters are diplomats, spies, mercenaries, etc. already tend to be my favorite fantasy books.
Quote from: Cain on March 08, 2009, 12:42:32 PM
Those of you who know my reading habits probably know I am not the greatest fan of fantasy writing in history, unless it is exceptional (see: Terry Pratchett, George RR Martin, Tolkein and Gaiman for more). Therefore, it only seems fit to parody the fuck out of the genre.
The idea I had, while stewing in late-stage insomnia last night, was elegantly simple: Have the usual fantasy setting, the 'evil' kingdom, the 'good' one, the ancient religion, hidden royal bloodline and all that usual crap...and then portray the "hero" as a sociopathic loose cannon with a chip on his shoulder and unreasonable sense of entitlement, who brings two said nations to the brink of war, merely to satisfy his own racist, messianic, authoritarian wet dreams (which most fantasy "heroes" have, when you strip away Authorial Intent and Implied Character Traits).
Instead, the real heroes would be the diplomats, spies, courtiers, mercenaries and other usual ensemble bad guys for the genre, who try and keep the peace while the fuckhead hero is intent on creating a devestating war which could plunge the region into complete chaos. You know, the people actually trying to stop a war entirely, instead of glorifying in its bloodshed.
Naturally, it needs fleshing out, but that is the basic premise.
Stolen. race you to the best sellers list
I think that Alan Moore, George R R Martin and Norman Spinrad have collectively beaten us both to the punch on this one, PL. At least, that was where I got my inspiration from, along with a PhD candidate I know who studies English, and rants about terrible books she has read quite often.
Quote from: Cainad on March 08, 2009, 05:30:11 PM
Oh sweet.
This sociopathic "hero" is celebrated and treated as a hero by the rest of the populace, I'm assuming? And the real protagonists are the ones who see him for what he really is?
I'm already chuckling.
Okay, quick brainstorm for the setting:
The "good" kingdom is Glamaria, while the "evil" kingdom is Atathraxis (here I'm attempting to satisfy the trope that good things have lilting names while the evil things have phonically harsh names).
Atathraxis is ruled by an evil emperor. Glamaria is ruled by a generally good king along with a well-intentioned but indecisive and petty council of nobles/elders.
Am I being generic enough?
Not bad, though I planned something slightly different.
Settings:
The "good" setting I thought might be better as a republic, along Roman lines. There is no necessary reason for a setting to be a kingdom, except to play to stereotype. Furthermore, one monarchy allows for others, because what matters is essentially the monarch themselves, and so there is sometimes a good reason for a character to overthrow the ("illegitimate") King and take their place. A republic, on the other hand, is in theory legitamized via its elections and its civic culture. Plus, it allows for a setting where the Roman Senate smears against Tiberius Gracchus can be played out as if they were actually true, that our usurper/"hero" really does want to seize power and become King.
I'm still undecided on the opposing state. I'm leaning towards Orcs, because that would illustrate the racist tendencies I believe most fantasy has better, but I might still do humans (or even a composite state of humans and orcs). They would be a former powerful country on hard times, kind of like Russia. They wouldn't be an enemy, per se, but there would have been past conflict between them and the republic, and due to their current misfortunes, a powerful business/criminal/political clique at the heart of their state. The sort of people you can do business with, but also the sort of people who would take border raids being launched from inside the republic or attempted assassinations of its ambassadors badly.
As for the people...most of them will see the hero for what he is. Some bandit who runs around with a shiny sword, killing people on flimsy premises and acting like an idiot. However, in the past, I want the Republic to have been an actual kingdom, with our hero being descended from the last line of Kings. Because of the expansionist natures of the Kingdom and the Republic, this original kingdom is now a province on the border with the enemy state. They werent conquered, but united by choice into the Republic when the last king was overthrown. However, nostalgia, and the Mystical Old Religion still hold sway there. Its kind of like the Midwest, with the whole "we are the true Americans" thing. Those people there, they will support our sociopathic protagonist. Mainly because someone needs to, otherwise our hero will get sliced and diced within about 10 minutes of starting his crazy killing rampage.
What, no evil witch/wizard?
Quote from: Cain on March 09, 2009, 10:11:05 AM
They would be a former powerful country on hard times, kind of like Russia. They wouldn't be an enemy, per se, but there would have been past conflict between them and the republic, and due to their current misfortunes, a powerful business/criminal/political clique at the heart of their state. The sort of people you can do business with, but also the sort of people who would take border raids being launched from inside the republic or attempted assassinations of its ambassadors badly.
Why have an attempted assassination when the "hero" can just over react to a percieved slight?
That sounds like a lot of fun to read, Cain.
Also, when the fuck will G.R.R. Martin complete that fucking upcoming book goddammit. I need my fix.
Quote from: Wind rider on March 09, 2009, 09:47:10 PM
What, no evil witch/wizard?
Quote from: Cain on March 09, 2009, 10:11:05 AM
They would be a former powerful country on hard times, kind of like Russia. They wouldn't be an enemy, per se, but there would have been past conflict between them and the republic, and due to their current misfortunes, a powerful business/criminal/political clique at the heart of their state. The sort of people you can do business with, but also the sort of people who would take border raids being launched from inside the republic or attempted assassinations of its ambassadors badly.
Why have an attempted assassination when the "hero" can just over react to a percieved slight?
The evil witch/wizard will probably be a member of Ancient Mystical Religion (which will be batshit insane) and will reveal the "destiny" and lineage of the hero.
No, the hero is going to attempt to assassinate the ambassador, for being evil. Possibly. I'm trying to figure out a way for his apparently random killing sprees to have a wider political significance and ramifications.
Verb, according to Amazon, it should be rolling off the presses sometime in September. But, then, he said it would be finished nearly three years ago, so I wouldn't put too much trust in that. He has a couple of sample chapters up on his site, and I hear (uncomfirmed rumour) that Sandor Clegane(!) will be a POV character in this book, possibly along with Mesliandre.
this sounds good, Cain. I share your distaste for fantasy lit, despite being an avid D&D player and larpwright. (lol portmanteau)
As for the Orc nation - the racist overtones aren't recognized by most fantasy fans - maybe try something more explicit? Like humans with smudgy skin and a secondary fantastic characteristic (claws, pointed ears, weird eyes). Or "Mongrelmen". Or just call them "Chinese".
on that note, know what would be funny? To write a typical fantasy novel but it takes place in the modern world. Substitute real world concepts for all the fantasy tropes. Like a story about the last survivor of the Circuit City bloodline being knighted by Barack Obama to go into the urban jungle to slay an evil bureaucrat who is building an army of financial slaves.
That sounds like it could be truly hilarious.
As for the Orc nation/racial overtones thing...you may be right. My hope was by representing them as products of their environment and culture, and the idea of the "violent, stupid orc" being akin to propaganda due to past border conflicts and wars, showing that conflict is a result of realpolitik, actual political considerations, resource grabs and religious intolerance, I might make the point clear.
The problem there, of course, is factoring in whether that will actually be noticed. Then again, so long as intelligent readers notice, and notice what I'm lampooning, it may not matter.
Quote from: Cain on March 10, 2009, 01:44:27 PM
That sounds like it could be truly hilarious.
As for the Orc nation/racial overtones thing...you may be right. My hope was by representing them as products of their environment and culture, and the idea of the "violent, stupid orc" being akin to propaganda due to past border conflicts and wars, showing that conflict is a result of realpolitik, actual political considerations, resource grabs and religious intolerance, I might make the point clear.
The problem there, of course, is factoring in whether that will actually be noticed. Then again, so long as intelligent readers notice, and notice what I'm lampooning, it may not matter.
No, no, this is a good idea. You should do it.
I have an inexplicable fondness for orcs and goblins of all types, though, so I may be biased. I once started a story about a goblin revolution.
Of course, you could start by talking about "those evil, dangerous orcs" and slowly reveal that they are basically just another nation of humans. You need not make them very special to get the point across, since the word "orc" already evoked sufficient imagery for you. The whole thing can be accentuated by presenting typical situations where racism and multiculturalism crash (such as intermarriage in border towns between orcs and "good" humans, seen with intense distaste but basically no worse than any other marriage).
Fuck. I don't mean to threadjack but I kind of have an idea that while not fantasy has a little bit to do with that last post. I was thinking of kind of a western with a planet of the apes ending. Where we learn that it was a product of the apocalypse or something. Just an idea.
Quote from: Cramulus on March 10, 2009, 01:29:32 PM
this sounds good, Cain. I share your distaste for fantasy lit, despite being an avid D&D player and larpwright. (lol portmanteau)
I dislike fantasy literature
BECAUSE I'm a D&D player.
The fact that the elves in D&D are the same height as humans is completely unacceptable, and I blame J.R.R.Tolkien
On a more on topic note, instead of using orcs, why not just use dark elves. Personally, I've always felt that the division of fantasy elves into regular elves and evil "dark" elves was obvious apologism for white supremicism :fnord:...
Because Dark elves make me want to hit things, and its already been done by R. A. Salvatore and Elaine Cunningham, in a typically ham-fisted and clumsy way.
A few years back I wanted to write a short fantasy parody where the forces of 'evil' conquer the world, wipe out all of the heroes, and inevitably have nothing left to do - no purpose in life. Then you'd have big, nasty orcs in loincloths wandering around, dramatically expressing their existential torment. Boo-hoo. :D
:lulz:
Logical conclusion to I Am Legend* ITT.
*The book, not the movie.
I wrote a satirical newspaper (in the style of the Onion) about the politics of this LARP I played
one month our headline was
ADVENTURERS FINALLY VANQUISH ALL EVIL
RAPIDLY THEY BECOME BORED AND BEGIN SLAYING ONE ANOTHER
Continuing my earlier suggestion about the "dark elves", I think it would be funny to see a fantasy story where the rituals associated with the elf god gradually start to bear a closer and closer resemblance to those of the Ku-Klux-Klan, culminating with a ritual dark-elf lynching complete with burning holy symbols....
Quote from: Cramulus on March 10, 2009, 01:29:32 PM
I dislike fantasy literature BECAUSE I'm a D&D player.
The fact that the elves in D&D are the same height as humans is completely unacceptable, and I blame J.R.R.Tolkien
They really ought to be only eight inches tall... or the same height as a human, depending on which folklore you're trying to emulate.
I'm throwing this idea out there, which is partly stolen from the film Franklyn (which is awesome btw):
Switching between the POV of a reliable narrator and the POV of the axe-crazy standard fantasy hero protagonist, portraying similar yet different universes (change the names around but make it possible to correlate the two) and only near the end reveal that the 'hero' is an unreliable narrator fighting for totally absurd delusions. Otherwise, the unreliable narrator's story should be entirely a cliche fantasy novel. The two universes can be passed off as the same place at two different times, maybe, giving the subtext that the 'hero' is living in the past.
Maybe. Take it or leave it
I was actually going to do something like that. It was going to be a multiple POV story, and the "hero" was indeed one of the characters slated to get a piece of the narration - albeit at a much smaller amount than everyone else. And it would showcase his delusions, though slowly (hence why his parts would not be as frequent).
I also drew a map today, which was fun. I want to get the setting sorted before I put pen to paper on the detailed plot.
That's a cool idea. If you want to see how other writers tried to do that, check out some of Jim Thompson's novels, "Killer Inside Me" and "Pop. 1280". Good stuff.
What a fantastic idea, Cain! I'd be happy look it over, if you want anyone to do so.
Thanks. Yeah, I may need someone to, when I actually get around to writing it. So far, its all doodling maps and writing out ideas for government structures and histories of the various nations. Also, I need to take notes on medieval and Roman warfare. I have the source books, its just a matter of gathering the information into one place.
My theory is that if I do enough research, while keeping the theme of the story general (ie; the hero is proto-fascist fuckwit, because in the Romantic tradition of hero-worship that has permeated the fantasy genre there is something quite sinister) then I will avoid an idiot plot, because there is so much information and knowledge about the setting, the events will start to write themselves.
Seeing as ASoIaF and LotR have both extremely deeply developed settings and very intelligent plots, and knowing that Tolkien, at the very least, developed his world long before starting to flesh out (or in some cases, write) his plotlines, I'm guessing that theory is right.
It certainly seems a reasonable assumption.
Failing that, I will write a homage to Eye of Argon, in the style of Robert Jordan. A 16 year old's juvenile fantasy book, stretched over 12 novels and roughly 30,000 pages.
And Robert Jordan.
Sadly, Jordan proves a lot of other things, like that misogyny sells, and that ripping off your fanbase really is a valid way of going about writing.
Sometimes, I wonder if the "Sword of Truth" series is, in some ways, the literary world's equivalent to the "Adam Yoshida Rule of Wingnut Arguments", which basically states you can tell what the most eloquent and well-syndicated wingnuts really think, by reading the blogs where third-tier wingnuts who, lacking their skills in blowing dog whistles and general disassembling, basically blurt out the truth (sometimes in ALL CAPS) that the first tier only hint at.
In much the same way, the Sword of Truth, which was meant to be a "homage" to the Wheel in Time, involves a sociopathic Marty Stu with a Omniscient Morality Licence, who gets away with (among other things) killing pacifists because of their incorrect moral standing. Its basically a "do what the fuck you like, because you ROCK and everyone else SUCKS" storyline which, when you get down to it, is somewhat similar to some interpretations of Rand in WoT. Only in the WoT, the fantastic racism is (somewhat) less obvious, since most of the Trollocs vanish after book two.
But, you don't necessarily have to like, or agree with the main character in order to enjoy a book, right? I enjoyed Sword of Truth quite a bit. I've read better and it was boring and complex* at times, but when he got captured by that S&M lady and when the evil lord of evil dude pours hot boiling lead down the throat of a little boy buried in sand that he raised like a loving father, only for this specific ritual sacrifice purpose, while telling the boy it is blueberry juice or something ... sorry but, yeah :lol: naturally I hadn't read any of LMNO's HP slashfic back in those days, so this was quite the "ummmm-WTF?!" moment :)
(*some secondary character mentioned by name halfway through the book that I was supposed to remember because he/she appeared by that name, in wolf form, somewhere in the beginning of the book comes to mind. i found the relation only because at that time I had left the book at some other place, so downloaded it as a textfile, and could use ctrl-F :) )
No, of course not. For instance, I thought Mat Cauthon was hands down the best character in the WoT series, even though Rand and pretty much every female character pissed me off.
But you do have to wonder about the author's motivation for writing it. Given Terry Goodkind is a Randroid, and wrote his bit about killing pacifists in the run-up to the Iraq War, in a political climate where several well known Objectivists had suggested similar actions, it is dodgy as fuck at the very least, and smacks of revenge/wish-fulfillment being acted out in print.
My dad bought me one of those Wheel of Time book several years ago for my birthday. Could not get into it. I'll stick with David and Leigh Eddings when I want silly high fantasy. AND it has a map in front! (or at least Polgara and Belgarath do).
Also, Jordan's books sound like they're full of dickery.
Jordan has...issues with women. Namely, they have to be bitches, or sluts, or both (or switch from one to another inbetween books).
This, in and of itself, is not necessarily terrible, though in conjunction with his almost painful depiction of miscommunication between the sexes, does become stale real fast. It also turns what appeared to be reasonably well rounded characters into complete cliché's, and with the plot proving them right more often than not, makes them insufferable fuckwits to boot.
No, the major problem is his excessive padding. Its probably telling that he intended for it to be a trilogy, and it will eventually have 14 books as a series. Its noticeable from as early as Book Two, though it doesn't become a major thing until book 6-7, and the ending of book 6 sortof makes up for everything that took so long to fall into place until then. But everything after that, and Book 10 in particular (which detailed a single day, in which NOTHING HAPPENED. seriously), is just spitting in the face of his fanbase.
Yeah, the Eddings are pretty good, if you're not after anything serious. Silk, Polgara and Belgarath are all fun, and the Belgarion/Mallorean series aren't at all bad, even if they got a bit Planet of Hats at times.
I'd like to take this opportunity to recommend R. Scott Bakker's The Prince of Nothing trilogy. Again.
The main character (or rather, the biggest mover and shaker in story terms, because the story is told from several perspectives) is a monk from an isolated sect that breeds for the strongest, fastest, and smartest among them and trains and conditions them to a nearly superhuman degree.
This character is, as you might imagine, totally unsympathetic to all other people and is basically a sociopath who is really, really good at getting people to become loyal to him. Hilarity ensues (not really, as the story is set in a Crapsack World).
If you aren't up for reading it (I haven't got the PDFs, after all), I can probably draw up a spoileriffic synopsis with focus on this character, just to help develop the sociopathic hero for this story.
I might be able to find them, I'll look around.
If not, then don't worry, as I might read them later, and in the meantime, I have The Handbook of Psychopathy and the Designated Hero/What the hell, hero?/Complete Monster pages from TV Tropes to work with
(the actual idea for this came from surfing TV Tropes for about 36 hours on end, unsurprisingly)
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2009, 02:15:42 PM
I might be able to find them, I'll look around.
If not, then don't worry, as I might read them later, and in the meantime, I have The Handbook of Psychopathy and the Designated Hero/What the hell, hero?/Complete Monster pages from TV Tropes to work with
(the actual idea for this came from surfing TV Tropes for about 36 hours on end, unsurprisingly)
Been there, thanks to your links. :argh!:
Then it makes me feel weird when people look at TV Tropes and are like, "I don't get it. This is dumb," and I don't really have a retort.
You should say "sorry, maybe I'll just send you a link to something more your speed, like a Barney the Dinosaur fansite".
Quote from: Cainad on June 02, 2009, 02:10:56 PM
I'd like to take this opportunity to recommend R. Scott Bakker's The Prince of Nothing trilogy. Again.
The main character (or rather, the biggest mover and shaker in story terms, because the story is told from several perspectives) is a monk from an isolated sect that breeds for the strongest, fastest, and smartest among them and trains and conditions them to a nearly superhuman degree.
This character is, as you might imagine, totally unsympathetic to all other people and is basically a sociopath who is really, really good at getting people to become loyal to him. Hilarity ensues (not really, as the story is set in a Crapsack World).
If you aren't up for reading it (I haven't got the PDFs, after all), I can probably draw up a spoileriffic synopsis with focus on this character, just to help develop the sociopathic hero for this story.
Woh, I remember reading that a long long time ago. It might be worthwhile to dig it back out.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on June 03, 2009, 12:57:41 AM
Quote from: Cainad on June 02, 2009, 02:10:56 PM
I'd like to take this opportunity to recommend R. Scott Bakker's The Prince of Nothing trilogy. Again.
The main character (or rather, the biggest mover and shaker in story terms, because the story is told from several perspectives) is a monk from an isolated sect that breeds for the strongest, fastest, and smartest among them and trains and conditions them to a nearly superhuman degree.
This character is, as you might imagine, totally unsympathetic to all other people and is basically a sociopath who is really, really good at getting people to become loyal to him. Hilarity ensues (not really, as the story is set in a Crapsack World).
If you aren't up for reading it (I haven't got the PDFs, after all), I can probably draw up a spoileriffic synopsis with focus on this character, just to help develop the sociopathic hero for this story.
Woh, I remember reading that a long long time ago. It might be worthwhile to dig it back out.
The first book of the next trilogy is out,
The Judging Eye.
Sorry, </threadjack>
What do you guys think about magic?
Personally, I'm somewhat leery about it. Particularly because of the RPG influence on the fantasy genre, magic comes across to me as something of a plot breaker. Too much leads to idiocy, and breaks willing suspense of disbelief. It also tends to overshadow human motivations and political considerations, for some reason.
But equally, without some element of magic, I don't think it can be a proper fantasy detournement, since fantasy does rely on magic to some degree. If I did include it, it would have to be similar to how GRRM had it in Westeros, I think - something very few people have access to, or even believe in, dangerous, time-consuming and with significant political ramifications when pulled off correctly (the assassination in Game of Thrones of one of the pretenders, the whole Azor Ahai deal, Valyrian steel, the Others, the Faceless Men).
I think that is the way I'd like to use it. Perhaps even take a leaf out of the book of IRL life occultists (the ones who don't treat it like DIY psychoanalytics) and have it as something bothersome, easy to get wrong and unreliable in the extreme.
But I'm open to other suggestions of how I could deal with this.
Quote from: Cainad on June 02, 2009, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2009, 02:15:42 PM
I might be able to find them, I'll look around.
If not, then don't worry, as I might read them later, and in the meantime, I have The Handbook of Psychopathy and the Designated Hero/What the hell, hero?/Complete Monster pages from TV Tropes to work with
(the actual idea for this came from surfing TV Tropes for about 36 hours on end, unsurprisingly)
Been there, thanks to your links. :argh!:
^ That.
On magic. You could do it like Pratchett does with the Witches. Most of the ritual is for show (this could be great fun for your hero), and what really matters is the will.
Alternately, do it like the modern occultists do. And have the hero try it and kill himself. Or one of his foes try it, kill himself or herself, and do it publicly in such a fashion that helps the hero in the long run.
Quote from: Cain on June 04, 2009, 03:46:57 AM
What do you guys think about magic?
Personally, I'm somewhat leery about it. Particularly because of the RPG influence on the fantasy genre, magic comes across to me as something of a plot breaker. Too much leads to idiocy, and breaks willing suspense of disbelief. It also tends to overshadow human motivations and political considerations, for some reason.
But equally, without some element of magic, I don't think it can be a proper fantasy detournement, since fantasy does rely on magic to some degree. If I did include it, it would have to be similar to how GRRM had it in Westeros, I think - something very few people have access to, or even believe in, dangerous, time-consuming and with significant political ramifications when pulled off correctly (the assassination in Game of Thrones of one of the pretenders, the whole Azor Ahai deal, Valyrian steel, the Others, the Faceless Men).
I think that is the way I'd like to use it. Perhaps even take a leaf out of the book of IRL life occultists (the ones who don't treat it like DIY psychoanalytics) and have it as something bothersome, easy to get wrong and unreliable in the extreme.
But I'm open to other suggestions of how I could deal with this.
I think that's a good way to go about it. Stories with lots of magic can be done well, but they do require spending a fair amount of time explaining that "Magic A is Magic A (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA)".
Another thing to consider is that even the high and mighty wizards can be chumps. They might be absentminded professor types, or greedy and selfish power-grubbers who can be manipulated by people more cunning than they are. Even if the magic seems like it could be ridiculously powerful or a plot breaker, it doesn't amount to squat if the people in control of it can be manipulated.
Another idea, if you want to stay away from magic, but still want to keep a proper fantasy setting, is to include a bunch of mythical or magical creatures. add some Dragons or some sort of monsters, and you don't need magic in the rest of the setting, or you can keep it really localized to the creature. Maybe make it a very strict one-off sphinx like encounter, which puts the hero (or other character) to a dilemma of sorts, which can then be used to showcase any part of their personality or morality that needs showcasing, and perhaps make something happen to move the plot along.
Just having a few magical creatures should put you safely in the fantasy genre, allowing you to concentrate further on the politicky and intrigey bits that we know you are so fond of :)
Just an idea, see if it works for you or inspires you. Basically, instead of having magic to gain fantasy-cred, include some mythical creatures to get there. They don't even need to do magic.
Another idea is to add a fantasy race, such as Orcs. Or perhaps something slightly different to not be entirely cliche (I wouldnt touch dwarves or elves at all). This would also allow you to explore a racism/superiority angle and all the fun concepts that can come with that.
Magic could be interesting, if you attach it to enormous cost, like physical pain, or taking a dozen years off your life, or something.
So you could have something like a magical suicide bomber squad, who train all their lives to cast a fireball, but they die in the process; or magicians are like nuclear mutually assured destruction, in that nobody uses them except to bring them out for grandstanding and threats... you could even have the magicians be tatamount to slaves, in that they are forced to learn the dark secrets of annihilation against their will, and used as pawns...
Why not treat it *as* psychology? That's something that to my knowledge hasn't been done in fiction really. Additionally, it makes it more or less useless in most of the situations where it would be a deus ex machina, but quite absurdly useful in certain other places where you might need it (taking the place of psychological warfare and in some cases psychoanalysis).
Or you could go the 'Cthulhu' route and have all Magic simply be poorly understood Science. That giant, mostly invisible creature you just summoned is actually a multidimensional being and your 'ritual' was a manipulation of dimensional mechanics. The mostly 'invisible' bits are just the bits in the other dimensions.
Also, magicians should often call up that which they cannot put down....
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 04, 2009, 04:56:32 PM
Also, magicians should often call up that which they cannot put down....
Or put on hold. Cthulu HATES musak.
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 04, 2009, 05:06:04 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 04, 2009, 04:56:32 PM
Also, magicians should often call up that which they cannot put down....
Or put on hold. Cthulu HATES musak.
QFT! That shit drives him Mad...
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 04, 2009, 05:07:51 PM
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 04, 2009, 05:06:04 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 04, 2009, 04:56:32 PM
Also, magicians should often call up that which they cannot put down....
Or put on hold. Cthulu HATES musak.
QFT! That shit drives him Mad...
What goes around comes around :-)
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 04, 2009, 04:52:15 PM
Why not treat it *as* psychology? That's something that to my knowledge hasn't been done in fiction really. Additionally, it makes it more or less useless in most of the situations where it would be a deus ex machina, but quite absurdly useful in certain other places where you might need it (taking the place of psychological warfare and in some cases psychoanalysis).
Isn't that pretty much the majority of what the Lancre Witches do on Discworld?
"Headology"
I dunno. I'm halfway through Thud and I haven't read any other discworld novels.
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 04, 2009, 06:08:33 PM
I dunno. I'm halfway through Thud and I haven't read any other discworld novels.
KEEP READING. Pick up the Rincewind series and the Granny Weatherwax series as well.
Quote from: LMNO on June 04, 2009, 05:47:08 PM
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 04, 2009, 04:52:15 PM
Why not treat it *as* psychology? That's something that to my knowledge hasn't been done in fiction really. Additionally, it makes it more or less useless in most of the situations where it would be a deus ex machina, but quite absurdly useful in certain other places where you might need it (taking the place of psychological warfare and in some cases psychoanalysis).
Isn't that pretty much the majority of what the Lancre Witches do on Discworld?
"Headology"
Kinda sorta. There's magic for sure, but the ritual is just for show. They don't really need any of it, but it's still useful for dealing with other people.
headology is sort of psychology combined with Stubborn Old Woman-ology. While the latter may seem like part of psychology as well, is in fact a much more tangible manifestation of Pure Will. Tangible like the educational smack on the head.
Plus, not everybody can do it, you have to be a Stubborn Old Woman first.
Lots of good ideas here.
I like the GRRM approach very much and think it is worth shamelessly ripping off.
Another idea that comes to mind (riffing on the "magicians aren't all that on-top-of-things" concept) is that magic exists but only as a dangerous delusion... That is, there would be a class of delusional crazies whose delusions actually turn into reality... Some of them can control it, to a degree, but they're all crazy anyway, and should be put down like dogs. Of course, governments can find good use for them...and heroes can use them to justify unspeakable acts.
PS
Cainad, please not to be linking to TVTropes. It makes it impossible to continue reading thread. Thankyou.
:lulz:
OK, thanks for the advice everyone.
I'm thinking I'm going to go with it being, in 99% of cases, pure charlatanism or delusion, with the 1% of time it does work being either in the creation of magical weapons (which would in mechanical terms rate as how a weapon made of Damascus steel compares to one made of iron - maybe with a few other perks like not be notched or easily rusted or breakable by any lesser metals) or spirits deciding to intervene for their own purposes - perhaps bringing in the ideas that gods too like to play political games too - or spirits have their own mercenaries.
Perhaps you can incorporate something like that chess-like game the Gods or Overseers in Discworld are playing, sometimes. Except, make them play poker, or something :)
Maybe. I might save that for other works though - if the setting is successful (defined as: interesting enough to keep me writing about it). If they do play a prominent role though, no doubt they'd be playing some sort of game for influence and power. One of the ideas behind this is things that are depoliticized in text usually have some creepy or fucked up implications when politicized, and so to do that as much as possible, to get people thinking and shake them out of some comfortable notions.
Chess is overused as a metaphorical board game. There are a number of games that would serve as well as chess in terms of strategy yet are neither cliche nor a direct subversion (avoid checkers and connect four, but pentago and risk are much better than candyland).
that's why I said poker. also the gods in discworld dont really play chess, but just something that has little figures moving on a board. could actually be Warhammer, for all I know :)
CANDYLAND OR GTFO.
It was quite D&Dish as well.
I always rooted for the Green Eyed Lady.
Quote from: VERB` on June 05, 2009, 10:46:43 PM
Cainad, please not to be linking to TVTropes. It makes it impossible to continue reading thread. Thankyou.
TITCM.
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 09, 2009, 08:43:50 PM
Chess is overused as a metaphorical board game. There are a number of games that would serve as well as chess in terms of strategy yet are neither cliche nor a direct subversion (avoid checkers and connect four, but pentago and risk are much better than candyland).
Blackjack?
Quote from: yhnmzw on June 10, 2009, 11:15:20 PM
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 09, 2009, 08:43:50 PM
Chess is overused as a metaphorical board game. There are a number of games that would serve as well as chess in terms of strategy yet are neither cliche nor a direct subversion (avoid checkers and connect four, but pentago and risk are much better than candyland).
Blackjack?
Calvinball.
Cain, I HIGHLY suggest reading the background to the White Wolf RPG Exalted (for the gods-as-political-assholes bit, and you'll probably LOVE the stuff about Sidereals) and playing the PS2 action-RPG Radiata Stories (for pretty much everything else, oh, and moral choices that you actually have to honestly -think- about).
Quote from: Cainad on June 15, 2009, 10:17:31 PM
Quote from: yhnmzw on June 10, 2009, 11:15:20 PM
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 09, 2009, 08:43:50 PM
Chess is overused as a metaphorical board game. There are a number of games that would serve as well as chess in terms of strategy yet are neither cliche nor a direct subversion (avoid checkers and connect four, but pentago and risk are much better than candyland).
Blackjack?
Calvinball.
"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of the players, (i.e. everybody), to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time." Terry Pratchett
I second the suggestion to read Exalted (2nd edition) sourcebooks, lots of really good stuff. It's the best all-round setting I've ever read, for books or games alike. (I'm running a Solar game set in Halta, going to turn political/grand-strategic soon. ^^)
God does not play dice with the universe, he plays a combination twister-strip poker-russian roulette.
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 17, 2009, 12:05:23 AM
God does not play dice with the universe, he plays a combination twister-strip poker-russian roulette.
Swiss rules or 2007 Tournament based?
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 09, 2009, 08:43:50 PM
Chess is overused as a metaphorical board game. There are a number of games that would serve as well as chess in terms of strategy yet are neither cliche nor a direct subversion (avoid checkers and connect four, but pentago and risk are much better than candyland).
Go, which I think Robert Jordan used (he called it stones iirc, it might also have been a generic game with no real rules that he made up).
One I've found particularly interesting lately would be werewolf (which consists of trying to figure out who the werewolf is before it kills everyone) was a great wakeup call to just how good someone I had dismissed as a wanna be valley girl really was. I have no idea how you'd work it into a book though.
Well, I think at least to some extent the idea of gods playing chess has to do with norse mythology, wherein before the beginning of midgard, the whole of asgard (or maybe it was valhallah?) was a big grassy field where the gods played a game with gold pieces. Little was said of the game, to my knowledge, other than the fact that it had gold pieces and was played in a grassy field.
Only a draft chapter, I'm going to work on it more (and of course, whatever else I write may drastically effect the content).
"It's getting dark, we should head back," Adrik suggested. He stopped for a moment, to take a sip from his water-skin, then continued. "They'll have to halt the convoy at night in this godsforsaken terrain, anyway".
Kirill glared at him. He should know better than to question the officer. He though Adrik was right, but that wasn't the point. Yuezhien officers didn't get on well with Rurik soldiers at the best of times, and this one was worse than most. Just because they knew how to handle the terrain better, and it wounded his notoriously touchy Yuezhi military pride. Arrogance, was more like it, Kirill thought, though he'd never say that within earshot of one of them.
Gansükh halted the company momentarily, for which the men were grateful. Having marched nonstop through the wooded, hilly terrain, since morning, searching for invisible and possibly even absent enemies, their patience had been worn thin. He turned to Adrik, and stared a moment longer than the Rurik scout felt comfortable with. He bottled the water-skin and said hastily "but of course I will abide by what the honoured Officer decides. I merely offer my advice and nothing more."
The Yuezhien sneered, then spoke in his rough, untutored Rurik "we keep moving. No rest until we find the bandits. Unless you want the Vizier to die? Perhaps you paid to make sure he not come back, yes?" And then he grinned, presumably to show he was not serious. However, there was little humour in it, as far as Kirill could see.
The problems had started earlier, when the advance guard had not returned first thing in the morning. Moving ahead cautiously, the scouts had discovered that a tree had been cut down in the road, blocking the route, and the advance guard were strewn about, all dead. Well, almost all. The officer leading them had not been found, and the rest of the bodies, though cut and bloodied, had been identified. The bandits seemed to have hit them from the trees, with arrows, and pinned them in from behind, moving their men in close to finish off anyone unlucky enough to have not already succumbed to their deadly accuracy with the bow.
Presumably, the tree trunk had been meant to stop the Vizier's main convoy, and the ambush cut his men down and hold him hostage. The trunk wouldn't stop men on foot, though given the size of the blasted tree, it was hardly a simple thing to dislodge. But horses and carriages, and their baggage was another matter, and that was presumably the intended target. They hadn't considered that the Rurik Army frequently made use of scouting forces, especially in [region], where the wood could cover all manner of foe, and the reach of civilised lands was constrained. And that would make the careers of these bandits very short lived indeed.
Or so the captain had said, back at the camp. Kirill wasn't so sure though. The captain was young and keen. Smart, certainly, but hadn't been in more than a couple of skirmishes as far as he could find out, and hadn't actually drawn blood in any of them. Kirill, on the other hand, had fought in the southern foothills during the disastrous second Araquen invasion. He knew banditry, because the generals were so incompetent some days it was the only way to survive, when your supply lines had been cut by yet another flanking manoeuvre that should have been anticipated. And so, he thought like a bandit.
The way he saw it was like this: the Vizier's own guard was a pretty formidable force on its own. While a legion could cut through it, any lesser force, including the mercenaries of the Border Princes and whatever manner of bandit was occupying the north forest, would be sore pressed to halt its passing. In a straight up fight, even if they had the jump on them, they'd be cut down, to a man.
So, instead, you split their forces up. Get them chasing shadows, running around a wood they clearly know better. And then they can either pick off the scouting forces one by one, or evade them all and spring a trap on the main target at a time of their choosing. And how do you get them to do that? Why, you announce your presence, of course, in a way designed to draw outrage and anger from among the men. Angry men are seldom cold-blooded enough to notice the trap you are laying for them, and their haste makes them fall all that much faster. And for such a cold country, the blood of Rurik ran very hot, at times.
Adrik watched Kirill with vague amusement. He respected the older man, but he was too cautious, and sometimes too paranoid. He had confided this theory to him, earlier in the day, and while it was semi-plausible, it showed a level of military coordination and skill bandits alone couldn't muster. Outlaws and cowards, nothing more. They took the advance by surprise, but now they were alert, and if they did run into them, it'd be the bandits who'd end up tasting Rurik iron.
Though on the other hand, the old man wasn't entirely wrong to be worried. Adrik had felt strange too. He'd lived in the west of the Khanate all his life, and knew how to hunt and trap in woods like these. He'd even had a run in with a bear once, when he was barely come of age. That had been embarrassing, having to climb a tree and call for help, all day long. And occasionally, in the worst winters, wolves and other creatures would sometimes be sighted, searching for prey. You heard stories about how they were driven to even attack men, they were so starved. But, despite all that, he had never felt fear from being in the woods. The close-knit trees and dampened sounds of such ground held no secrets from him.
Yet, entering these woods, he had felt...unsettled. It wasn't the mutilated bodies, that just made him angry, and besides, any fool could cut up and hack apart a corpse. No, it had been before that. A certain tension in the air, a feeling of hidden menace. He found himself checking behind him more often than was strictly necessary, and sleeping light. There was something in this wood to be worried about, but it wasn't bandits.
Gansükh looked around, impatiently. This...guard duty, as he saw his current mission, bored him terribly. As a third son of a great general, of a powerful clan, he felt such work was beneath him. But it was more than that. The Yuezhi method of war was not waged on foot. From age ten he had been trained with the spear, the horse, and the bow. That was how they fought, out in the open, making use of wide space and sudden speed to surprise an enemy. He did not like being on foot, searching for cowards in the woods. And they were cowards, there was no doubt of that. Clever and cunning ones, but that would only make killing them all the more satisfying.
He also did not like these Rurik men. They too, fought like cowards. They skulked around this wood like thieves, their daggers ready to slip into an unsuspecting throat or belly. And they looked at the Yuezhi darkly, whispering and plotting. More than one Yuezhi had ended up dead, when serving with mostly Rurik men. Especially if they were the officer in charge. So he held then in contempt, but also watched carefully.
A sudden rustle broke the dead quiet of the woods. All the men turned at once, then hastily drew weapons. Then nothing. Kirill had drawn his bow, and Adrik had a dirk to hand, with most of the other men also drawing short blades or bows. Most menacingly, Gansükh had drawn his heavy scimitar, and was holding it ready to strike. Seconds passed, and there was nothing. Adrik was the first to lower his guard, cautiously. "Maybe it was just a breeze" he offered. The others looked at him, then relaxed.
Without warning, something bounded through the tree line and made straight for them. Muttering a prayer to the Gods, Kirill drew back the arrow and fired. It thudded, and a second later, the sounds stopped. Moving in, using the trees as cover, Adrik closed on the source of the noise. He grinned, then shouted back "well, dinner is sorted out for tonight, at least." The others followed, and saw the deer, the arrow straight through its chest. "That was one hell of a shot, Kirill", one of the men said. Another laughed, then cautiously touched the body with his boot, to make sure it was dead.
As his boot made contact, the wood exploded into life. Adrik saw the movement first, and ducked behind a tree, with Kirill dropping to the ground and scrambling to cover a second later. Quick sounds filled the air, and the cries of men in pain followed. Then silence, again.
Adrik shivered, and not from the cold. They had been ambushed without him - or even Kirill - noticing a thing. And now, at least half their company was dead, or dying. His hand shook as he held his blade, thinking. They had bows, and were likely spread out in the forest, to maximise their angles of fire. But they couldn't be too far apart, or else they wouldn't be able to coordinate their shots. If he could find one, without being seen...he might take two or even three down before an arrow took him in the chest. He needed to find Kirill.
He breathed deeply, and positioned himself low, among the bushes. As he prepared to round the tree, and see the carnage in front of him, a shadow moved through the woods. He looked, it wasn't moving like any of the men in the company. Too confident and too easily seen. He held the blade, preparing to drive it into his stomach as he passed. At least one of these bandits would die tonight, he thought grimly. The shadow passed beside him, and he turned, striking low and hard.
The blade was knocked out of his hands and a savage kick to the legs left him on the floor. He screamed in pain, it felt like the knee was broken. And then the scream was cut off, mid-stream.
Gansükh and Kirill looked at each other. The cry of pain sounded inhuman, but so far the bandits had not made a sound. After the attack, he had found the Yuezhi, trying to move through the woods towards where the shots were fired, and likely walking into an ambush. Instead, he had grabbed him, and nearly dragged him, in order to make their way back to the main convoy. But he had got turned around in the fight, and they had found themselves in the nearby vale. With the valley wall to their front, and enemies to their back, they had nowhere left to run. Kirill then glared at Gansükh. "Sheath that bloody sword, now!" he urged him. He gave the older man a look, then complied. Here, they could keep hidden among the brush, but any reflection or glare could give them away. And given how dark it was getting, the possibility of torches couldn't be ruled out.
Hugging close to the ground, Kirill waited. There was nothing else they could do, outnumbered as they were. Twilight deepened, and the moon rose, like a sickle in the sky. Kirill was not grateful for the light.
He found himself shaking, unexpectedly. Not due to the cold either. Rising up slightly, he peered through the bushes. There were glimmers of light, dancing in the distance. Torches, almost certainly, and coming this way. He sunk down low again, and explained with hand signals to the Yuezhi, that their hunters seemed to be closing in, and to keep as low and quiet as possible. He nodded his understanding.
The leaves rustled, and Kirill caught the movement. Close, far too close. The men made nearly no sound, only occasionally brushing against leaves and shrubs, and then vanished behind the trees. Gone? He hoped so. Sweat trickled down his face, stinging his eyes.
Then they slipped back, the shadowy figures with torches held out in front of them. They were nearly on top of him! He tensed, ready for whatever may come, when abruptly, Gansükh beside him jumped out of their hiding place, scimitar already half drawn. A slash took the first man down, and the second threw the torch at the Yuezhi's face, hoping to buy time to draw his blade. He deflected the makeshift missile with a sweep of the sword, then attempted to close in, when he staggered, then suddenly fell. The remaining man, having finally drawn his weapon, walked up to the moaning, now prone figure and kicked him over. Kirill then saw what had dropped him, an arrow to the throat. It had pierced his neck, and blood was now soiling the forest floor. The man drew his sword high, then thrust it through his chest. He spasmed, then was still.
Kirill cursed, silently. The man with the torch and the sword then called, and two other shadows emerged from the trees, both with bows. He was trapped, but with any luck, they would not even realize he was there, get bored of their hunt and soon leave. He could then get back to the Vizier, warn him, maybe even convince him to send runners up the East Road and obtain help, either from mercenary companies on their way to the Border Princes, or even from the Araquen, as painful as that would be.
However, such thoughts ended as a hand thrust through the cover of the bushes and grabbed by the back of the neck. He barely pulled himself up right as he was dragged out, a sword at his throat. The man called to the others "what should we do with this one?" The voice spoke in Araquen, which surprised Kirill. He assumed the bandits would be a motley crew from the Border Princes, mercenaries who had lost one too many times or upset a powerful lord and were driven out. But perhaps it was not so surprising, winter had been especially hard this year, and banditry was a good a career as any, when the fields were frozen and the supplies running down.
One of the two men with the bows hesitated, then repeated the question to someone else, further back in the trees. A reply came which the Rurik scout didn't catch, and then the man nodded. The man beside him suddenly stepped away and he barely had time to register the movement before an arrow flew into his torso, followed by another into the shoulder blade. He fell, feeling numb.
The man with the torch waited a while, as the scout twitched, then he knelt down and slit his throat. "When he's bled out, take him with the others, about three miles up the road. Flay them, then crucify them. Leave the torches, in case the Vizier risks travelling at night. I want him to see this." He nodded, then let the man go, before calling one of the bowmen to help him with the body. It was going to be another long night.
You have too many made up words, that are painfully nonsensical since they aren't explained either (though that might be you parodying bad fantasy I guess).
somewhere I read that you're only allowed to make up 2 or 3 new words per book. per decree of the hyper council of future literacy and pention plans inc.
and cain I will read your draft soon, when I find the time for it
Quote from: Requia on June 29, 2009, 03:37:14 AM
You have too many made up words, that are painfully nonsensical since they aren't explained either (though that might be you parodying bad fantasy I guess).
Only words made up are Kingdom/nationalities. The rest all really exist.
There. Replaced my "painfully nonsensical" words with their better known equivalents.
That'll teach me to bother doing any research again. Personally, I thought it was "painfully obvious" that there was more than something a bit Mongol about one of the culture's I had described, and so I used loan words from those there, because if I hate anything more than the outlined stock fantasy plot then its fantasy's obsession with High Medieval Western Europe. Weapons, unit names and ranks taken from The Secret History of The Mongols and the administrative structure of the Golden Horde.
But apparently not wanting to tread down the tired route of "lets all have lords and ladies and simpering knights and cultural references I can understand" is bad fantasy.
:|.
Where is draft chapter?
I haven't seen either version, but I'm guessing I'd prefer the un-revised one.
Too late, it was revised. I also changed the final paragraphs, which is why I removed it while I was working on them. I decided anyone stupid enough to get into a sword fight when they had archers to hand is too stupid to run a guerrilla war, and so changed it accordingly.
Well, I liked it, as a draft chapter. It has a good feel.
I also must say I was amused that the three most well-described characters all die abruptly.
Yeah, I'm taking a leaf out of George R R Martin's book. Rape and mutiliation and death for everyone! Plot armour will not save you.
That said, I actually want to flesh them out more, and make some of the cultural allusions a bit more subtle. I really don't want to start infodropping, just to show off I did some work on the background.
I kind of figured you were just giving a taste of the story, and would stretch it out over more pages, rather than front-load the story with exposition.
I'm also looking forward to watching you exploit all the things we've learned on TVtropes.
I did mention the inspiration from this came from overloading on TV Tropes one day, right? I think it was reading the Complete Monster, What the Hell Hero? and Designated Hero categories, one after the other.
That chapter was great for a first draft. I wish I could have seen it before you edited out all the mongol references.
I think the thing with sticking to medieval Europe in the fantasy genre (though sometimes you can get away with ancient Greece/Rome), is that when you combine fantasy terms with Eastern terms (or any other non-European cliche fantasy), you risk getting having it all lumped in as fantasy, rather than historical fact from a time period and culture the reader is unfamiliar with. In which case you will seem to delve much further into fantasy than you actually are, which can alienate the reader.
Also, some of the way the characters thoughts about each other seem planet of hats-ish (or race of hats at least), though I'm assuming this is intentional (or these aren't major enough characters in the overall story to warrant in depth discussion).
HOWEVER if you include an author's introduction before the first chapter, you can explain that many of your terms are taken from <insert culture that is not Western European here>. Give a few examples and then people will feel smart and edumacated and they will give rave reviews to their nerdy friends about how cool and unique the book is.
Quote from: Rumwolf on June 30, 2009, 02:34:21 AM
I think the thing with sticking to medieval Europe in the fantasy genre (though sometimes you can get away with ancient Greece/Rome), is that when you combine fantasy terms with Eastern terms (or any other non-European cliche fantasy), you risk getting having it all lumped in as fantasy, rather than historical fact from a time period and culture the reader is unfamiliar with. In which case you will seem to delve much further into fantasy than you actually are, which can alienate the reader.
Also, some of the way the characters thoughts about each other seem planet of hats-ish (or race of hats at least), though I'm assuming this is intentional (or these aren't major enough characters in the overall story to warrant in depth discussion).
Yeah. Which is why I did end up changing it. Fortunately, most of the plot will be taking place in a culture based on the Romans, and based on Renaissance Italy, so hopefully there won't be too much cultural dissonance.
I admit they do come across a little plant of hats-esque, especially the Yuezhi officer. That is something I hope to minimize with further revisions and drafts. However, as later revelations will show, the Yuezhi officer in question is actually not a standard representation of his culture, at least how it has been plotted out by me. His belief he should be given a better position due to his father's rank, for example, is not a standard belief for that culture because, like the Mongols, they place an emphasis on merit above all. His father actually has a Rurik master-of-arms as his second in command. He could have learnt the necessary skills for types of warfare apart from mounted combat and seiges, but his disdain for Rurik culture and society - helped in no small part by the idealization of steppe life by many Yuezhi of his age - meant he never bothered to learn it. Equally, he is young enough to have spent almost all his life in Rurik as well, so he should be able to speak the language fluently.
Things like this will be more evident as more writing is done, but with what you had to go on, the Planet of Hats worry was a reasonable one.
Also, I'm going to mercilessly subvert the Proud Warrior Race Guy thing I'm setting up with them. I don't want to say too much, because I still haven't figured out the details, but lets just say any similarity to Klingons, Aiel or Fremen are merely superficial. I'm going to put the war back into warrior, and remind people precisely how brutal warfare in the past could be.
Yay!
I'm really looking forward to this.
Quote from: Cain on June 30, 2009, 05:09:17 PMI'm going to put the war back into warrior, and remind people precisely how brutal warfare in the past could be.
:mrgreen:
I take it i can expect a long brutal bloodbath, torture for the fun of it, an army thats basically a glorified slaver operation and at least one attempt at genocide then?
:lulz:
That and then some.
I mean, break down the term, Proud Warrior Race Guy:
Proud
Also could mean haughty, arrogant, dismissive of others.
Warrior
Warriors are defined in contrast to soldiers. The aestheticization of violence, "a dead enemy is a thing of beauty".
Race
Need I say any more?
Guy
A wee bit sexist, perhaps?
Given the major theme of this was to be "the classical, Romantic hero, beloved of fantasy, is a thinly veiled fascist", I would have to say the two mesh quite well.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 04, 2009, 05:47:08 PM
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 04, 2009, 04:52:15 PM
Why not treat it *as* psychology? That's something that to my knowledge hasn't been done in fiction really. Additionally, it makes it more or less useless in most of the situations where it would be a deus ex machina, but quite absurdly useful in certain other places where you might need it (taking the place of psychological warfare and in some cases psychoanalysis).
Isn't that pretty much the majority of what the Lancre Witches do on Discworld?
"Headology"
Yeah, but they also have real magic powers. They're just afraid to use them because using them excessively tends to endanger the user and/or drive tem insane.
EDIT:
As for the OP, that was kind of the plot of
Wicked, wasn't it. "Glinda the Good" is a bitch, and the "Wonderful Wizard" is a tyrannical fascist.
EDIT:
Also
Grendel by John Gardner.