I was reading this article over at MSNBC.com. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29585222/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29585222/)
It talks about this periodical study done on Americans to gauge the prevalance of religion, specifically the Christian religions. The study has found that in pretty much every state, people are reporting that they are religious in smaller and smaller numbers. The number of respondents reporting as being without a religion has risen from 8% to 15% in just under 20 years. So this raises a couple of questions that might be interesting to discuss.
1) Do you think this is a trend or a blip? In either case, what do you think is precipitating what is being seen in the numbers?
2) A larger, "what if" kind of question. Do you think it is possible for human kind to "outgrow" religion. We look back on our histories and we see the Gods that have been worshipped in the past and that are worshipped no longer. Could there be a point where the collected histories of dead deities leads us to a place where we no longer worship deities?
I'm not sure about #1 myself. My guess is as church membership declines so will the number who have religion. But I don't doubt some newer blood finding ways to get people back into the churches.
As for #2, I don't think there will ever be a world devoid of religions. But, I can see a shift away from religions lead by some personified-deity and maybe more towards worshipping of ideas. Maybe something a little more like The Force or similar religions where there certainly still is faith, just not some Bearded Phantom sitting in the clouds pulling on our strings.
good question!
1) Is it a trend or a blip? I'd be inclined to say trend. I can't find the citation at the moment, but it looks like theism is waning in the western world. America is one of the more religious countries out there, but the nonreligious movement is gaining ground.
2) Do I think it is possible for human kind to "outgrow" religion? I like Ed and Wes' model of religions as a kind of egregore - very large complex systems which display intelligent behavior. Unlike corporate or political egregores, religious egregores have a very long lifecycle and are difficult to analyze. A company may only be in business for a few years, and we can easily study it's lifecycle. Religions are larger, older monsters, and thereby harder to understand.
I would lean towards yes, but with a qualifier. I think that religion will change, incrementally, until it's something that we wouldn't recognize today. I think of Warren Ellis' depiction of religion in Transmetropolitan. Religious groups of the future are a dime a dozen. The idea that we have to respect each other's beliefs even if we don't believe in them eventually leads to really absurd stuff getting mainstream acceptance (mormonism for example). In Transmet, there are cults of all flavors - and all are legit. In the future I think you could be baptized in the church of John Lennon, or be married by a priest of Pelor (a D&D deity).
Christianity is going to get more fragmented and conflicted. People with fringe beliefs, due to the information age, will be able to find each other and make themselves into legitimate factions. And as those factions gain legitimacy, they will no longer seem so fringe. The borders of acceptability will get blurrier (or more eroded, depending on how you look at it) until the whole gestalt picture of Christianity includes weird stuff like my friend the Celtic-Christian-New-Age Witch.
But likewise the role of religion in people's lives is in transition. And I think it's going to shift a bit until it's more like an astrological sign.
So what are you?
I'm a Pieces Jew, you.
I'm an Aquarius Unitarian.
oh cool - Jews and Unitarians get along well, so we should be fine.
some possible ideas for question 1
1) I've noticed religion, almost like political movements, tend to move in trends or fads.
2) Some of it, I think is that the religious right has become over-representative in the US, and I think the crazy is starting to drive some moderates away - especially considering the influence some extreme religious sorts want on defining the society, trying to drive it back into the dark ages
3) Membership in the major religions have been falling over the years, it for some reason may have took some time till the actual numbers in the states caught up with the trends in the churches... ie. people answering they are religious but don't ever go to church or perform any sort of a religious ceremony, now they might just as well admit they are not religious depending on how the question is formed
for question two I think there is a hidden tribal fear that religion addresses not only trying to find a sense of purpose and hope in the universe but addresses the same when dealing with fellow humans, so I'm tempted to say no, and every time someone tried to make the assumption that religion is dead it always seems to come back in force
The needs of the people on a spiritual level are not being met by the leaders of the mainstream religions. The needs of the people as a whole are not being met by a deity.
In fact, looking at this article, the only two religious factions out there which are holding their own are the pentecostals and the mormons. Not sure what to make of that as they are are really different. An odd concept, but one to think about.
I think people are tired. They are tired of the continuous lines of bullshit being handed to them. Not only from the various government agenecies and leaders, but from the schools, from the workplace, etc. Church was once a place to go and be free from all of that worry and stress of your life. A place to lay your burden down.
The problem is people expected certain things from their god(s). There have been no miracles, things remain shitty. People are dying all over the world, losing their homes, jobs, families and the questions being asked but not answered are.....
"WHY?"
"How could god let this happen?"
"Where is/was god?"
I personally do not believe in a benevolent deity. If there is a god/goddess then he/she must be one seriously twisted and sick being. A being of death and destruction. Or, because we as a people have not gotten our shit together and as a whole do not worship god/goddess then we are being punished. People want "salvation" to be more than an after death insurance plan. They want their miracles now, not read about them in a book no one can decide if it's true or not, that is so damned old many many idealologies from it are just wrong. In this day and age, people believe in what they see, feel and hear. God no longer walks amongst us taking care of the people, he/she has left us to our own devices and we have royally fucked it all up!
Maybe the New Atheists are having an effect? They've had a few years now to get their message into the mainstream...
Religion isn't shrinking, it's just changing into forms we don't recognise. The cult of celebrity is fucking huge right now. It offers instant, here and now salvation by way of elevation to it's already fucking huge pantheon.
Quote from: Cain on March 09, 2009, 03:37:15 PM
Maybe the New Atheists are having an effect? They've had a few years now to get their message into the mainstream...
This was a thought I had... personally I think it may have an effect in terms of my third point... ie. people that weren't really religious to begin with.... but again personal idea, have nothing to back it up
It seems to me that this may be a pattern. Certainly some societies existed where religion was a minor or inconsequential aspect of society, The city states in Italy, particularly Venice basically kicked the Church out and focused instead on money, trade and having a good time. Well, until the plague showed up... then they went running back into the arms of the Church who could blame it on TEH EVILDOERS!
The trend may be something more permanent, it would be nice to see religion no longer control people, but perhaps simply be an added spice some people add to their lives. Unfortunately, I think that as soon as something very scary happens, I think people may find themselves looking for a Sky Daddy to save them. I hope not, but we're talking about a bunch of monkeys with serious hair loss problems.
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 09, 2009, 03:43:24 PM
It seems to me that this may be a pattern. Certainly some societies existed where religion was a minor or inconsequential aspect of society, The city states in Italy, particularly Venice basically kicked the Church out and focused instead on money, trade and having a good time. Well, until the plague showed up... then they went running back into the arms of the Church who could blame it on TEH EVILDOERS!
The trend may be something more permanent, it would be nice to see religion no longer control people, but perhaps simply be an added spice some people add to their lives. Unfortunately, I think that as soon as something very scary happens, I think people may find themselves looking for a Sky Daddy to save them. I hope not, but we're talking about a bunch of monkeys with serious hair loss problems.
THIS!
I too would like to think people are strong enough to face reality without superstitious fairy stories.
But I don't.
I think as religions grow more and more fractious, more people will join the category of irreligious and non-religious. To simplify it greatly, say you have some popular religious sect called Whateverism. Somewhere in the doctrine of Whateverism, it's unclear how followers should respond to moral dilemma X, so argument breaks out and fails to be resolved. The Church of Whateverism splits into two factions, with some people following one faction and some following the other, and a third group of followers who become disillusioned with the whole thing because it failed to provide a clear and consistent worldview.
Quote from: Cramulus on March 09, 2009, 02:38:37 PMChristianity is going to get more fragmented and conflicted. People with fringe beliefs, due to the information age, will be able to find each other and make themselves into legitimate factions. And as those factions gain legitimacy, they will no longer seem so fringe. The borders of acceptability will get blurrier (or more eroded, depending on how you look at it) until the whole gestalt picture of Christianity includes weird stuff like my friend the Celtic-Christian-New-Age Witch.
I also agree with this. In the past, people may have stuck with the religion they were raised in simply because they were never exposed to alternate ideas that they liked. These days, it seems very unusual NOT to be bombarded with strange new ideas all the time, so more and more people have the opportunity to change their minds. And, of course, atheism, agnosticism, and plain old I-don't-give-a-rat's-ass-ism are among these ideas being circulated, so people are joining their ranks as well.
So I suppose my answer to #1 is that it is a trend. As for #2, I don't know.
one of my cabalmates describes his religion as "Wingitism". How do you practice Wingitism? You just wing it. :lulz:
we hold that many, many people are Wingitists - they just aren't aware of it.
I like it. It kinda stumbles off the tongue, but it makes sense.
That's actually the first time I've heard of the non religion group being lower than 15% in America. (ever, Christianity in this country peaked at 70 something percent according to the sociology professor whose class I crashed).
It might be referring to the non theist proportion, cause 'no religion' tends to get a *lot* bigger piece of the pie than Atheist or the like.
This is a general trend, religion has been dropping since the 50s, though the more recent polls I've seen show increases in the shares from the fundie denominations too. So it seems like things are moving to the extremes.
There was a religious revival in most of the world (Europe aside) in the 1980s.
Quote from: Cain on March 10, 2009, 01:00:43 PM
There was a religious revival in most of the world (Europe aside) in the 1980s.
Connected to the economic depression at all?
Quote from: Cainad on March 10, 2009, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 10, 2009, 01:00:43 PM
There was a religious revival in most of the world (Europe aside) in the 1980s.
Connected to the economic depression at all?
Or political depression. I know the religious revival in the Middle East was due to the failures of Arab nationalism and a response to the Iranian revolution. The US, South America, Africa, Central Asia et al may have other explanatory factors.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 09, 2009, 02:15:50 PM
I was reading this article over at MSNBC.com. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29585222/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29585222/)
1) Do you think this is a trend or a blip? In either case, what do you think is precipitating what is being seen in the numbers?
2) A larger, "what if" kind of question. Do you think it is possible for human kind to "outgrow" religion. We look back on our histories and we see the Gods that have been worshipped in the past and that are worshipped no longer. Could there be a point where the collected histories of dead deities leads us to a place where we no longer worship deities?
Saw that yesterday. I think it's a pendulum swing, much like politics. It's true that money and fame are also worshipped, but as soon as we got well fed enough, that's always been the case. Before that it was the natural elements that we thought fed us. *shrug*
I think the "tired of the bullshit" is somewhat true, in that people thought they saw some genuine pull to "make a difference" in the religious reich, and found out it didn't happen, it was ssdd, and so turned back towards the shuffling "don't believe in NUTHIN' no more!" kind of mindset. The "I believe in God but I'm not religious" set is back, and secularism attracts the pendulum again.
It doesn't mean they won't get fed up again, the "moral majority" that's out there, and swing back HARDER toward the right as they did in the early 00's. That's always possible--took Baby Bush and his "hyuk, I'm a REAL MAN, y'all!" schtick and 9/11 to create the last right-wing-churchist backlash. Who knows what events will presage the next one?
I do think the religious upswing and fundamentalist bent of the Muslim nations was way different than that of the US, but probably had the same sort of consequences in the main.
Quote from: Cain on March 10, 2009, 01:00:43 PM
There was a religious revival in most of the world (Europe aside) in the 1980s.
Dunno about the numbers from the 80s, but the American numbers I've seen show the 90s as lower than the 70s.
Of course, that wouldn't have stopped the people who were religious from getting even more so (probably enhanced it even, since a lot of the more fundie types seem like they feel threatened by religion losing its hold on others).
Quote from: Requia on March 11, 2009, 12:12:52 AM
Quote from: Cain on March 10, 2009, 01:00:43 PM
There was a religious revival in most of the world (Europe aside) in the 1980s.
Dunno about the numbers from the 80s, but the American numbers I've seen show the 90s as lower than the 70s.
Of course, that wouldn't have stopped the people who were religious from getting even more so (probably enhanced it even, since a lot of the more fundie types seem like they feel threatened by religion losing its hold on others).
The higher the incidence of people flaunting gods almighty will and not getting smitten for it, the more it makes their god look a bit impotent and kind of crap. Especially for the literalist who must be constantly staggered by the lack of flooding and biblical palaguery. Must have been much easier when the clergy had the power to smite the unbeliever without bothering the almighty with the task.