Every so often, I feel it's important to examine this forum-thing we're riding, and perhaps break it out of its black iron prison. WE are bars of the forum's prison. This post is an attempt to examine the shape of the cell and maybe start to rearrange it.I joined this forum a little over two years ago.
At first I thought, "Wow, an actual group of Discordians!"
and I was expecting a normal internet forum.
Then I read The Black Iron Prison, and it shook me up proper. Never before has the internet reached into my life like that.
I thought, "Man, these guys aren't just talking about it, they're
actually doing it." Gradually, I realized that there's probably no larger group of Discordians, online or offline. (to be fair, whether we qualify as a "group" is up for debate)
I realized that a lot of my grandiose and over-the-top drives could probably be achieved with the help of a network like this. Many ideas had to change in order to work with a decentralized online group. I've found that the hardest thing to do is to interact with somebody digitally and get them to do something in meatspace. (This is well summarized by Shii's description of the difficulties in motivating Anonymous (http://shii.org/knows/Anonymous): "Anonymous as a collective can rarely be motivated to do anything useful, especially if it involves standing up from the computer. This phenomenon was first noted on the Something Awful forums where many people eagerly mobilized in anonymous form to attack furry forums, but few would stand up and get off their computers to go volunteer somewhere.") But nevertheless, projects like POSTERGASM and COLBERTGASM proved that we CAN do stuff in the real world, even if we end up spending much more time talking about it online. Some of this stuff can be really big. A group of 20 or 30 people with their own social networks and resources is a
very powerful group. Even if those people are only kinda on the same page and have no central leadership.
I think this forum has amazing potential which it has only partially reailzed. When someone in the year 2050 writes about the history of Discordia, there's a good chance they'll have to mention this forum or its satelite projects. I don't say that to inflate anyone's ego or present us as "authorities". This forum blows goats in many ways. But on the other hand, we also kick ass. Again, we're probably the largest group of Discordians so if something cool is going to emerge from the Discordian society in this decade, there's a really good chance it'll come from here. That's
if advancement of the Discordian Society is our goal.
Meta-goalsIn my magical dream world, where this is the perfect forum for Discordia, we...
- are involved in a constant outpouring of NEW information and ideas (like Intermittens, the BIP, etc). At least once a year we release a more significant work like the BIP.
- are a social resource for the Discordian Society, making it easier to find Discordians in your area for 3D adventures (this is one of the biggest ways we can encourage emergence)
- provide resources (like POSTERGASM or the stuff in the propaganda depository) for people to play with. These things should be easily accessable from the front page
- have a few clearly defined ongoing projects, so if people want to DO something, there's something to participate in (safaris, trolling, pranks, etc)
- have threads with interesting topics and discussions. 90% of the forums on the internet have nearly identical threads. We should strive to maintain the quality of reading around here.
- are living proof that the Discordian Society wasn't something that just existed in occult / lunatic circles in the 1970s
On a more concrete level, I'd like to see us propagate a prank which makes serious news.
Inclusion CriteraOn one hand, I feel bad when someone with thin skin arrives here and gets flamed away before they've had time to learn how we roll. On the other hand, this forum isn't for everybody and I wouldn't want to see this place declawed. Everybody here should be able to freely express themselves. Sometimes that includes being a dick. That's freedom for ya. The Admins have made it clear that this isn't an "ALL ABOARD!" clubhouse - we want to hang out with cool people, and that requires some maintenence to keep a good signal-to-noise ratio.
That being said, I see many newbies as potential resources - people who will make our whole project bigger and better through their participation. So when someone gets flamed off the board for having an unpopular point of view (the big three being Anarchy, Libertarianism, and some types of Paganism), I think it ultimately hurts the community as a whole. (I'm reminded tactic we use when trolling a board - flame any newcomers, thereby generating a sort of judgemental, mistrustful attitude towards newbies. This ensures that newcomers either conform to group norms or leave entirely)
There's also the Monkey Politics game, a middle-schoolesque game we play to determine who's in the in-group and who's in the out-group. This bugged me in high school and it bugs me now. The defense of an in-group generates the SNAFU principle. Here at PD we don't act like we're
above our shitflinging territorial monkey nature. Which is cool, but it doesn't mean we have to
embrace it either.
Difference from the run-of-the-mill forumsI have always liked the uniqueness of PD. When we were running with the Adam Weishaupt Society, we discovered that when you post something on a forum, the responses are nearly always predictable. This is less true of PD than other places I've found.
I like that people who get involved with this forum often feel the need to give back to it. This has resulted in a lot of great posts, writing, images, etc. The best way to give back is to participate in it - but here you have more options than the typical forum. You could help manage a project, or one of our websites (blackironprison.com always needs participants!). You can write on the blog. And there are always projects going on. When you hang out on most forums, there aren't as many activities! (trolling, safaris, brainstorms, etc)
PresentationPerhaps the best way to prune this community into the bonsai tree we want it to be is to reorganize it.
The pd front page should be a dynamic page which is updated with the current Quotes, Jokes, Projects, Blog Entries, and Images.
blackironprison.com should become an encylopedia of ideas generated by this forum. We should come up with succinct entries about memes we're fond of (like shrapnel, the Machine, and "FUCK YOU MY COUSIN DIED FROM X") This will help newbies get up to speed, and help us communicate our ideas with minimal confusion.
We need volunteers to help do this! One entry I suggest is a Newbie entry where everybody can give their thoughts on how to best join the commutiny. Like the ATTN N00bs threads, but less than 40 pages long.
Each subforum could have a sticky thread which describes the function / vibe of that subforum. This is already going on, but some of 'em need updating.
I see the Volunteer Thread as a good resource for this, but maybe there's a better way to let people know what we need help with?
Sometimes I come here for social reasons, sometimes project reasons, sometimes educational reasons. I recognize that there's a broad spectrum of reasons people come here. Nobody wants to be told how to use this forum, so I want to be clear: suggesting a motivation does not mean that everybody's gotta be on the same page. Saying we want to do X does not necessarily exclude Y and Z. So let's not waste our breath trying to come up with a vision we all agree with. Just because I want to spread the word of Eris doesn't mean that you have to. Everybody gets to choose their level of commitment, but must also accept that others see things differently. There are certain points we will never agree on. Dwelling on those points is a distraction from talking about what we
could be doing.
I'd like to hear your thoughts about how we can make this forum even better than it currently is, even more different from the boring cardboard forums that are typical on the internet. Let's think for ourselves, shmuck, and collaborate on a creative trip which will help the Forums / Community be totally bitchtits.
Putting my community organizing hat on:
One word: focus.
Cram, you are an idea generating machine. Seriously, this place has benefitted immensely from your presence here in terms of finding ways to put this Discordia stuff into motion and into creative projects. Sometimes, though, I wonder if we get too many irons in the fire. And this isn't directed at any one person, it's a collective thing. Between the publishing ideas, the video ideas, the radio ideas, the safari ideas, trolling, and the GASMs, that's a lot of stuff to be carried out by people who have IRL lives as well. Now, that isn't to say that we can't do all of these things, but I feel like maybe energies get spread out a little too thing at times and causes a sort of burn-out or something.
I mentioned in another thread doing a logic model. And maybe we don't really literally need to make one but I think if we came up with an organized, concrete game plan of doing x activities to achieve y outcomes, maybe that would help keep energy moving forward. I think that is the key, the more focused we can keep the energies, the more bang for the buck we'll get.
So maybe that is the thing we need to figure out. Come up with a list of goals and outcomes and figure out which strategies will be most effective in acheiving those goals. So we want to achieve A, B, C, and D. To do that we will do 1, 2, 3, and 4. Again, this is coming from my perspective as a community organizer and maybe it doesn't work with an online community, just throwing it out there.
You put your finger right on it dude.
Just to start, maybe a quick "WARNING: HERE THERE BE ASSHOLES" / "HOW TO ROLL" bit that we could sticky as far as advice we WISH people would clue into before they get run off.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 19, 2009, 04:19:06 PM
Sometimes, though, I wonder if we get too many irons in the fire. And this isn't directed at any one person, it's a collective thing. Between the publishing ideas, the video ideas, the radio ideas, the safari ideas, trolling, and the GASMs, that's a lot of stuff to be carried out by people who have IRL lives as well. Now, that isn't to say that we can't do all of these things, but I feel like maybe energies get spread out a little too thing at times and causes a sort of burn-out or something.
this is true
I've been subscribing to the Black Swan methodology - instead of pouring all your energy into one big project that will sink or swim, pour your energy into a dozen smaller ones. Odds are, one of 'em is going to take off.
But if there's a large number of projects which we start, put energy into, and then drop. That's the nature of the beast, but it makes me hestitant to, say, write a column for an Intermittens issue that only has a 25% chance of being published.
Maybe this is part of the "reorganize the front-page project". We could have a little section that lists our active projects and links to a wiki entry or thread. When a project slows down, we take it off the roster. But who's that "we"? How could we give front-page edit access to a few people without it becoming total anarchy? By making it a blog perhaps?
Yeah, I can see your point. And I think a "what's active?" section on the front page is a good idea. The BIP wiki is a little out of the way and people will only find it as we direct them there.
I'll have a meaningful reply later. Until then, caryatids, since "We are the bars in [...] Black Iron Prison."
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa268/octareenroon91/27098_1.jpg)
Yet, one must wonder if part of our problem is too much THINKING and TALKING about what we can do, rather than DOING what we can talk and think about. It seems to me that some of the best stuff from writings to GASMS etc, have been ones that simply happened. Intermittens I is a perfect example. It wasn't from a "Let's Write A Magazine" thread, it was and had but to be ordered, disordered and named by Cramulus and Telarus.
Quote from: RAW
Tao fa tsu-jan: "The Tao just happens." (Footnote to this: The entire passage reads: Jen fa ti, ti fa ti'en, ti'en fa Tao, Tao fa tsu-jan. "Man is subject to earth, earth is subject to heaven, heaven is subject to Tao, Tao is subject to spontaneity." ...)
- Joyce and Tao
I really like this thread.
Not much more than that from me right now. A few things I have issue with, but I'll gather my thoughts first.
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 19, 2009, 07:00:51 PM
Yet, one must wonder if part of our problem is too much THINKING and TALKING about what we can do, rather than DOING what we can talk and think about.
I talk about The Art of Memetics way too much, but it really influenced how I think about these things. AoM describes this kind of community as a "mastermind group" - that is, a network which produces some kind of output. In order to produce better output, we need to hook up feedback systems which encourage the kind of output we want. For example, Intermittens, the PD blog, and the BIP wiki are all places where we showcase the community's creativity.
The trick to mastering the output is to
plug the feedback systems into a feedback system. We do this by having meta-discussions about the forum's goals, processes, and tendencies. This will allow us to examine what's working, what isn't, and channel our energy towards more desirable ends.
I hear what you're saying - talking about talking about doing stuff seems kind of removed from the FUN. But we need to hold up a mirror in order to learn that maybe we're not getting any dates because we haven't brushed our hair yet this year. :p
Quote from: Cramulus on March 19, 2009, 08:41:29 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 19, 2009, 07:00:51 PM
Yet, one must wonder if part of our problem is too much THINKING and TALKING about what we can do, rather than DOING what we can talk and think about.
I talk about The Art of Memetics way too much, but it really influenced how I think about these things. AoM describes this kind of community as a "mastermind group" - that is, a network which produces some kind of output. In order to produce better output, we need to hook up feedback systems which encourage the kind of output we want. For example, Intermittens, the PD blog, and the BIP wiki are all places where we showcase the community's creativity.
The trick to mastering the output is to plug the feedback systems into a feedback system. We do this by having meta-discussions about the forum's goals, processes, and tendencies. This will allow us to examine what's working, what isn't, and channel our energy towards more desirable ends.
I hear what you're saying - talking about talking about doing stuff seems kind of removed from the FUN. But we need to hold up a mirror in order to learn that maybe we're not getting any dates because we haven't brushed our hair yet this year. :p
Oh I agree with that... my point, rather was that its the 'in the moment' where the output seems to shine. It was a "Let's make the BiP" it was a collection of Zen Moements which culminated into the BiP. It wasn't talking about Intermittens and planning it as a group... it was in the moment and made up of in the moment posts....
Once a girl broke up with me because I planned all of our events. I took her to movies and shows and parks and all sorts of stuff... trying to make the right mood. Yet, it was the random, accidental, spontaneity that she was looking for. Almost all of the Big Successes around here were brief moments of Zen that turned into EggGASM, ColbertGASM, BiP, Intermittens, etc etc etc
Perhaps its the spontaneous conversations, posts and threads whcih act as a strata and casing from which our psychedelic fruits can bloom. :wink:
It seems like when we make big plans and have lots of discussion... the output is slower, the energy is lower, like it all got blown in the debate/discussion/planning. Maybe I'm wrong though.
In terms of organizing projects, I think the key here is to work on projects that can be completed in less time than the PD attention span. For bigger projects, we'd have to break them into smaller chunks, do one chunk at a time, and then towards the end have somebody go "Hey, wait a second, we have enough for a new book here!" and go and publish the damned thing.
In terms of new members: yes, we need a "Hitchhiker's Guide to PD.com" on the front page. Another idea, to make the forum more visible - have a "Thread of the Day" where the OP is posted, blog-like, on the front page so visitors can see that we have an active and interesting forum? The "comments" section, of course, would be a like to the thread proper.
I don't want to be organized or challenged. I really just come here to fuck off. :(
I feel like every few months, someone gets bored and tries to organize the PD.com spags to do something productive. That's cool, but it seems like more cool stuff actually happens when someone says "I have this fun project I'm working on!" and people get interested and want to play. Some of my favorite stuff, too, is where someone does something/sees something cool/weird IRL, and posts about it. That's where just talking about it can lead to more fun stuff, because other people see it and want to do something like it... one-sentence meme bombs getting stickered everywhere, or Postergasm. I love those! Right now some of my friends are busy plastering signposts in Portland with "This Post Scares Me" stickers... two of them are on their second sheet. That's some fun shit right there, and it came from just talking about stuff.
Peedeedotcom as an organized interest group kind of freaks me out, honestly.
Okay, heres the problem I have with this.
Not only do PD.commers not have much more time to invest, but I also think that the more organized things move towards, the LESS organized we will all be inclined to work. I honestly think it is impossible for this forum to get organized enough to do any sort of long term project, even if that was the only project on our plate. We can't even get motivated to do have of the simple online things, much less the IRL stuff.
So, basically, any initiative is doomed to failure. Best to keep going as we have been. The idea of discordians sticking apart isn't a mandate, its what actually happens when you get a bunch of discord freaks together. You just can't organize discordians. Its like trying to organize anonymous.
Also, I'm personally not willing to commit to anything, because I have a strong tendency not to finish what I've started. No use starting things that won't get finished.
Well it is a tight group here and hard to get into. Like said, this place isn't for everyone but because of the central domain name it attracts lots of people.
Could there be like an interdiscordian section where other communities/individuals could report on their projects?
OM seems to focus on what happens here and random things that people find elsewhere.
Maybe it would bring some healthy competition and occasional collaboration.
Just a thought:
The original BIP didn't start with someone saying, "let's get together and do a major project!" It started due to an ongoing debate about the worth of the original Principia Discordia, and if it was still relevant 40 years on.
One of us decided to hold a contest: Each person would pick an idea in the PD they liked, and write about what they thought it meant, and why it was important. No prize, just a chance to revisit the PD, pull an idea, and update it.
One of the first essays landed on RAW's "Reality Grids", and stole a PKD phrase, and BIP showed up for the first time. People seemed to like it, and we spent a lot of time figuring out what the hell we just did.
Eventually, I threw some of the essays into Word, and Pamphlet 1.0 was born.
The rest is... what it is, I suppose.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that any time someone starts a thread with, "We should get together and organize a project..." someone (or someones) will make a big fuss about Discordians Organizing, and how they would rather have fun, or be independent, or not have enough time.
So, my suggestion would be to just start something, and invite people to join you. identify what they're good at (writing online v doing IRL stuff), and let them decide to play along. Then see what you've got, and only then figure out what it all adds up to. If you have a clear goal in mind before you start, you'll never get there; but if you just start playing around with something interesting, you'll get something great you never expected.
I worry about the "Missions, goals, and objectives" part, as well, because what can happen if there are stated goals and objectives for a board is that people who just show up to hang around and fuck off and talk shit may end up second-class citizens of a sort... labeled as "unproductive", or if there's a dispute an adversary may ask to show what they've contributed as a way of putting them down. I think there IS a place for forums and groups with missions, goals, and objectives, but I kind of hope this doesn't become one of those places because I like the non-pressured hanging-outiness of it.
I think LMNO's suggestion is great; a lot of awesome stuff happens when people start a project and open it to input. I think, though, that a key is to have enthusiasm for it yourself, and the desire to carry it through even if no one else wants to join... and also to avoid feeling resentful if that does end up happening. Most of us work full-time, most of us are busy doing projects IRL, many of us have families, and many of us contribute tidbits here and there when we can, and it's nothing personal if we don't want to jump on a group project online... it's just what it is.
Speaking of cool group projects, how's the Etcetera Discordia coming? If it needs help, I know someone skilled in design and layout who might have time to work on it. I'd love to see that project come to fruition.
Quote from: Kai on March 20, 2009, 02:42:46 AM
So, basically, any initiative is doomed to failure. Best to keep going as we have been.
I disagree--
things change, and the past is not necessarily a good indicator of the future.
Quote from: Nigel on March 20, 2009, 02:06:54 AM
I don't want to be organized or challenged. I really just come here to fuck off. :(
Both of you (nigel&kai) sound to me like you're reacting against an attempt to create a workflow, deadlines, positions and responsibilities. That's really not what I'm going for here. The idea isn't to organize the board into some kind of productivity militia, it's to talk about how we work now and how we can encourage the board to better serve our ends.
There are simple things we can do which encourage quality. Well written stickes discourage retarded n00bery. The very presence of Intermittens encourages people to write creative articles for each other to enjoy. If a bunch of people say "I like reading rants, they're the best part of this board", I'm sure we'll see more rants! We only know by communicating what page we're on.
I mean, maybe I'm the only one on the board who thinks the BIP wiki should be more fleshed out. Or that it's desirable to come up with "new" ideas about Discordia. Hey that's cool - but how would I know unless we talk about it? I don't want to waste my energy on projects that nobody cares about. That's why this thread is called "Missions, Goals, Objectives". Maybe everybody just wants to use this place socially like a regular forum. *shrug* figuring out what kinds of energy will succeed is what this thread is all about.
Quote from: Two Frame Animation on March 19, 2009, 09:59:42 PM
In terms of organizing projects, I think the key here is to work on projects that can be completed in less time than the PD attention span. For bigger projects, we'd have to break them into smaller chunks, do one chunk at a time, and then towards the end have somebody go "Hey, wait a second, we have enough for a new book here!" and go and publish the damned thing.
:mittens:
as LMNO pointed out, the BIP was also written that way. Intermittens too - we had a lot of source material, and then somebody took the initiative to throw it into a PDF.
I'm also reminded of the PDF "101 ways to make everybody's day weirder" - we produced that in record time because
it took a moderate investment of energy by one person
and a small investment of energy by a lot of people
that seems to be a very well-working model here!
Quote from: Nigel on March 20, 2009, 03:14:14 PM
I worry about the "Missions, goals, and objectives" part, as well, because what can happen if there are stated goals and objectives for a board is that people who just show up to hang around and fuck off and talk shit may end up second-class citizens of a sort... labeled as "unproductive", or if there's a dispute an adversary may ask to show what they've contributed as a way of putting them down.
Sometimes I come here for social reasons, sometimes project reasons, sometimes educational reasons. I recognize that there's a broad spectrum of reasons people come here. Nobody wants to be told how to use this forum, so I want to be clear: suggesting a motivation does not mean that everybody's gotta be on the same page. Saying we want to do X does not necessarily exclude Y and Z. So let's not waste our breath trying to come up with a vision we all agree with. Just because I want to spread the word of Eris doesn't mean that you have to. Everybody gets to choose their level of commitment, but must also accept that others see things differently. There are certain points we will never agree on. Dwelling on those points is a distraction from talking about what we
could be doing.
I'm sure we can talk about what our personal motivations are without insisting that everybody should share them. :)
The unfocused board is what caused me to fuck off for so long. I can only look at so many fluff threads about everyone's stupid ass vacations and soup recipes before I get bored and look elsewhere. I pretty impressed that since I've been back, maybe a quarter of my time has been spent in Apple Talk, whereas before it was like 80%. This place has depth to it's content, and it's good.
Cram, what would you recommend in terms of the BIP wiki?
As far as I can tell from, say, the Double Hermeneutic thread, it seems like Cramulus just wants more content on it in general. The more that's there the more we have to work with.
However, he could have specific goals in mind. I just want to possibly save him the trouble of typing stuff if I'm right.
I guess I'm looking for less general and more specific. I do try to update the wiki from time to time and so if there are some specific kinds of things we want to add to it I'd like to know what to look for.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 20, 2009, 06:54:43 PM
I guess I'm looking for less general and more specific. I do try to update the wiki from time to time and so if there are some specific kinds of things we want to add to it I'd like to know what to look for.
this needs its own thread, I think. I don't want to jack this one by talking about specific projects. But briefly-- (hah)
Right now there's a lot of information in our collective. But it's kind of inaccessable in threads. You can't find where to look.
but in The Beginning...
we made a push to collect the highlights of good discussions in the Literature section (http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Literature). I wonder if that's something that'd be worth collecting again.
I'm interested in how bip.com might form part of the feedback loops which encourage good content on PD.
Like how there's a culture here of putting other people's posts in the POTD thread. Doing this showcases / reinforces the kind of humor we find funny.
If people got in the habit of posting their rants on BIP.com after they've gotten feedback at PD, we'd be collectively creating a very interesting library of original content. People would aspire to write rants for that collection. Over time, the collection gets better and takes on a life of its own. The whole thing is easy to throw in PDF and upload to lulu press.
If people were interested in making this, it could be cool to set up a PD memeopedia. We could have pages for stuff like Shrapnel, The Machine, Intermittens, thoughts on Anarchism, etc
it would try to have multiple viewpoints. Sort of like how everything2.com works - you type in a word, and you get a bunch of people's mini-articles about that topic.
yeah needs own thread, and so...
Quote from: Cramulus on March 20, 2009, 07:27:48 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 20, 2009, 06:54:43 PM
I guess I'm looking for less general and more specific. I do try to update the wiki from time to time and so if there are some specific kinds of things we want to add to it I'd like to know what to look for.
this needs its own thread, I think. I don't want to jack this one by talking about specific projects. But briefly-- (hah)
Right now there's a lot of information in our collective. But it's kind of inaccessable in threads. You can't find where to look.
but in The Beginning...
we made a push to collect the highlights of good discussions in the Literature section (http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Literature). I wonder if that's something that'd be worth collecting again.
I'm interested in how bip.com might form part of the feedback loops which encourage good content on PD.
Like how there's a culture here of putting other people's posts in the POTD thread. Doing this showcases / reinforces the kind of humor we find funny.
If people got in the habit of posting their rants on BIP.com after they've gotten feedback at PD, we'd be collectively creating a very interesting library of original content. People would aspire to write rants for that collection. Over time, the collection gets better and takes on a life of its own. The whole thing is easy to throw in PDF and upload to lulu press.
If people were interested in making this, it could be cool to set up a PD memeopedia. We could have pages for stuff like Shrapnel, The Machine, Intermittens, thoughts on Anarchism, etc
it would try to have multiple viewpoints. Sort of like how everything2.com works - you type in a word, and you get a bunch of people's mini-articles about that topic.
Suggestion: Someone claims the role of "detrius collector", asks permission of ranters, and moves them over themselves.
Most of us won't mind, if we're credited.
This is what I was angling for when I put out my Intermittens 6 announcement and asked for "thread miners". Lemme put in another reminder/plug - if you can think of anything that would fit with your idea of what constitues "discord in theory and practice" drop a link in my thread
[/threadjack]
Cram, I'd just like to say, you've honestly inspired me.
Not that I can actually contribute much to any of this; other than writing (badly), but still. Good job!
I think a lot of this could/should come into effect through the new front page. It needs to be turned into the hub of activity, not a mostly redundant page of links. It needs to have lots of useful information, links to important threads on the boards, links to projects and ideas threads, links to other Discordian/Relevant sites, and various other paraphernalia. If this is achieved well, I'm pretty sure it will increase productivity here, and encourage a larger and better community.
However, I wholeheartedly agree with Nigel; this still needs, at least in part, to be a place where people can just come to fuck off, chill and chat idly.
When I took this place over, the idea was that PD.com would be the place where we could "organize" (I use the term loosely) and bend our collective will towards collaborative projects both online and IRL. People who wanted to do nothing but chat idly and talk about what they just ate/listened to/stuck up their ass could do that at EB&G.
That's not to mean that nobody should ever engage in idle chatter at PD.com (obviously) but the idle chatter seems to have attained a kudzu-like quality. If people are uncomfortable with the idea of discordians organizing and getting "serious", they're free to go elsewhere. EB&G would be my first suggestion. They're also free to stay and make meaningful contributions or not, but I will react harshly to anyone who suggests that PD.com should not be the type of forum where we have some larger "big picture" goals and objectives.
Looks like it's control-freak time.
What's next, you gonna edit my posts and make up lies about what I said?
Fuck's sake.
Nigel, you sound ridiculous.
Quote from: The Borderline Simpleton on March 29, 2009, 03:06:14 AM
Fuck's sake.
Nigel, you sound ridiculous.
Why, because he's never done that before?
No.
Because I'm sick and fucking tired of reading pages and pages of accusations, bitching and just general fucking asshattery on this site. And not just from you, either. Jesus fucking Christ, do we really need more drama?
Actually, y'know what, fuck it. Forget I ever said anything. I don't want to add to the pile of steaming horse shit.
You know what? Fuck it, I'll go.
Oh, for fuck's sake.
Sorry for bringing drama into this thread, btw.
And for whatever the fuck just happened.
anyway, back to the topic...
I've been thinking that we could tie some of the GASM projects and other sort of DIY stuff we've got going on in with Radio Free Discordia.
It has recently come to my attention that there are people who listen to RFD who aren't active members of this site or connected to any part of our presence on the internet, so throwing the occasional "advertisement" for an IRL project into the RFD feed might inspire both more new members here and more active IRL participation in some projects.
That's an excellent idea. Even if it's just a second or two "Coming Soon: EggGASM." or whatever, I think it would definitely help add the both projects here, and to RFD, as a radio station.
I've been thinking about this thread quite a bit. I agree there is a lot of potential here. Maybe that's just my pack rat mentality – I can't seem to throw anything away until I've agonized over what I could possibly use it for. Not that I'm personally trying to use the members of this forum but, as Cram said,
QuoteOn a more concrete level, I'd like to see us propagate a prank which makes serious news.
This would kick so much ass.
But it seems to me in order for this to happen – the forum structure needs to change. If anything is going to happen, we really need to know what can we do and what will we do.
I have a few ideas I'd like to share, but first I would like it to be known that I think these changes (should they be implemented) should only be applied to the O:MF section. I, for one, really like all the bullshit posts and drama here and I certainly think it has its place.
It seems to me that the hive mind element of this place is under utilized. I like the idea of incorporating feedback loops – if done right it should be possible to make the forum more "self-aware." I won't even pretend to be an expert on AI and I think it's quite likely that what I'm about to propose has been tried before (everything I invent has been out there for years)
The way I usually browse this forum and I'm assuming most users do the same is to simply click the "Show unread posts since last visit" link and see what's been going on since the last time I was logged in. This means the forum gets presented to me chronologically, based on whatever has been most recently posted.
What if there was a "Show most Active Mindfucks" link? Something that would take into account how many views a thread has had. That would show what the forum was most interested in – even if nobody is posting. I agree that it's important for newbs to be hazed and keep the bullshit down – but keeping the bullshit down by discouraging posting means there could be projects that people are interested in but aren't posting anything cuz they are either afraid to, or simply don't have anything to add.
Or, what if there was a "Show most popular Mindfucks" link? If we could allow people to vote "Likes this" to a thread – that would let a thread rise to the top, without having to be posted in or bumped.
Another thought I had was to have threads that are two columns – all new posts would go into the right hand side column and the more valuable or relevant posts could get voted over to the left hand side. This would be a way to filter out bullshit without discouraging posting.
I was also thinking that this hive mind must have a personality. Would there be a way to set up a poll so the whole board could take, say, a Meyers-Briggs personality test. Everyone votes for their particular answers and the results would be compiled into one meta-personality. Might help us figure out where our efforts would work best.
I am by no means a proficient programmer (Fortran 77 anyone?) so I don't know how difficult (or possible) any or all of these changes would be to implement.
I do think the important thing is to incorporate feedback in forms other than posting and bumping threads.
I think there might be forum software that allows for tagging threads.
like we could tag certain posts "prank" and then have a button like "view unread prank posts"
we could come up with several tags, for the stuff on the forum people generally want to follow - pranks, rants, mindfucks, gasms, games, etc. More specific and customizable than subforums.
that would be very handy for assembling stuff or pointing newbies to good reading.
Quote from: Dirtytime on March 29, 2009, 01:22:39 PM
anyway, back to the topic...
I've been thinking that we could tie some of the GASM projects and other sort of DIY stuff we've got going on in with Radio Free Discordia.
It has recently come to my attention that there are people who listen to RFD who aren't active members of this site or connected to any part of our presence on the internet, so throwing the occasional "advertisement" for an IRL project into the RFD feed might inspire both more new members here and more active IRL participation in some projects.
Kickass idea. It can be made even more appealing to the curious by, instead of overtly advertising, saying shit like "WE NEED YOU to help us uncover a mystery: WHAT THE FUCK IS COLBERTGASM? Is a shady cult really controlling America's top television asshats? IF YOU HAVE A CLUE send us info about COLBERTGASM to <EMAIL ADDRESS>. The first five to submit a clue will get a SPECIAL MENTION and FIVE SONGS OF THEIR CHOICE at the TIME OF THEIR CHOICE right here on RADIO FREE DISCORDIA."
In other words, make it look to outsiders like we are looking for information about these things, causing them to look them up (and the GASMs are all easily googlable). The email address given can and probably should be dead, causing the curious to seek out other ways to discuss the stuff, hopefully leading some of them over here...
Just a thought.
Quote from: Dirtytime on March 28, 2009, 11:57:42 PM
When I took this place over, the idea was that PD.com would be the place where we could "organize" (I use the term loosely) and bend our collective will towards collaborative projects both online and IRL. People who wanted to do nothing but chat idly and talk about what they just ate/listened to/stuck up their ass could do that at EB&G.
That's not to mean that nobody should ever engage in idle chatter at PD.com (obviously) but the idle chatter seems to have attained a kudzu-like quality. If people are uncomfortable with the idea of discordians organizing and getting "serious", they're free to go elsewhere. EB&G would be my first suggestion. They're also free to stay and make meaningful contributions or not, but I will react harshly to anyone who suggests that PD.com should not be the type of forum where we have some larger "big picture" goals and objectives.
:mittens:
FTR, I wish the above sentiment was in one of the newbie stickies.
Wait, RFD is officially on the air? When did this roll out?
All of these sound like good ideas on forum tools and lots of nice words... but if any of our (PD.com's) successes have taught us anything... its that ACTION, before organization and before nice cool tools actually works.
The First Intermittens was not organized (and it was that horrific Word Layout (sorry Cram!)). Once done, though, there was something people would see/touch and act on.
It seems to me, that BiP was similar, as were most of the GASMS.
We have several threads that are full of ideas and inspiration that WE SHOULD do something and we CAN do something and there are cool tools for doing something...
I've helped build a number of websites and this kinda reminds me of one of the most common errors. People spend a lot of time figuring out which CMS tool they want to use and which templates and which fonts and which images and which features and which functions... and they spend days and weeks agonizing over 'the best' solution. However, once their chosen solution is all picked out, it sits empty because they forgot that CONTENT was actually the most important part of their site.
We seem to have a lot of buzz here in the nest... but if we aren't out collecting pollen, all the buzz in the world won't make honey. :wink:
Suggestion:
Anyone with a post that sounds like, "You know what we should do? A bunch of us should get together and ____" should just GET ON WITH IT.
Start your idea yourself. Get the ball rolling before telling anyone about it. Then, as you're cobbling a bunch of shit together, make general and specific announcements, like "Ok, I've got this thing, but I need some Q," and you throw the thing up for consideration. If it's a good idea/project, people will gravitate to it and add on.
A sure fire way to get nothing done is to talk about planning. The first step should always be getting it to exist.
You guys make it sound like any project we discuss first is doomed to failure! It can be frustrating "talking about talking", but it really is the best way to tune up our collective engine -- as long as the discussion is productive and gives us some ideas for better ways to collaborate.
How it works now (kinda):
The most common projects we've undertaken, typically writing projects, have generally grown from a single editor capitalizing on already available resources. It seems to be possible to canvas PD for submissions, as long as the submissions are kind of short and the idea is fun.
The moderately complicated projects we've undertaken have usually grown from a smaller network of people with their own internal dynamic. They grow their idea in private, then take it to the forum. I agree that the higher degrees of organization may not be possible in a group setting, but that doesn't mean it's impossible...
Two examples come to mind - the party at limbo peak (which required a lot of backstage coordination between 000 and I), and the A Fapcab Called Desire thread, a WOMP cabal art project. (Believe it or not, FAPCAB required two or three weeks of coordination at WOMP HQ)
Intermittens 1 also happened in layers... after I made the first PDF, Telarus hopped on board to do the layout. This, in its purest form, is how a GASM works.
let's get a bit more concrete though - It's only useful to talk about how this place functions if it helps us make the machine more efficient
So let's bring the tangent to the Fat Eris Cookbook
We talked about how BIP/Intermittens followed the "easy pick-up" formula - how there were a lot of resources already available, and it only took one or two moderately organized editors to pick up the pages and throw them into a book. Although PD posters can't be relied on to write long essays or treatises at the drop of a hat, we can count on some small to midlength submissions from a lot of people, medium length from a few people. And there are already a lot of resources available in the recepie subforum, so a lot of the book will come together very quickly once we conceptualize it properly.
How it's working now:
So the Fat Eris cookbook is one thread right now, and it contains both the discussion about the book and submissions for the book. The Pariah has taken it upon himself to collect the entries in a single document. This makes him the de facto editor. He will likely listen to the suggestions made in the thread, but as the guy with the .doc, he's the decider.
Is this an efficient model?
could we make it more efficient somehow?
what about distribution? -- we can easily distribute it to the forum, but what about after that? How do we connect this idea with us being egotistical blowhards who like to see our thoughts in print?
(not rhetorical questions :p)
Quote from: Cramulus on March 31, 2009, 02:36:48 PM
what about distribution? -- we can easily distribute it to the forum, but what about after that? How do we connect this idea with us being egotistical blowhards who like to see our thoughts in print?
If we can find a solution to this, most of the other problems will seem minor.
I've mentioned this before, but back in the days when BIP was a separate board, I had changed the name to The Discordian Network. (right before it went kerplooey). My idea at the time was to develop a network with other gangs of Discordians on internetland, and perhaps even IRL. I think something like this would be helpful for distribution. I really think it would be useful if we developed some kind of database of e-mail addresses of people who either would be willing to distribute the Intermittens (and other projects) to their social circle, or people who just want to read it for themselves. Either way we'll be casting the net wider than we currently are.
I've stopped following the 23ae newsfeed, but don't we have people/friends who can post there and on POEE (posting on EB&G goes without saying)? Arent's these the ideal ways to get to other Discordian-affiliated netizens?
Quote from: VERB` on March 31, 2009, 03:02:32 PM
I've stopped following the 23ae newsfeed, but don't we have people/friends who can post there and on POEE (posting on EB&G goes without saying)? Arent's these the ideal ways to get to other Discordian-affiliated netizens?
something like this?
http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Discordian_Websites_and_Communities
list needs updating
I tend to think of those places, POEE and EB&G in particular, as extended family. And so it definitely does help some in casting a wider net, but we can probably do better. We can hit up folks on MySpace, Facebook, anywhere we think me might find some on-line Discordians who aren't hanging out here.
It would also be nice to have some kind of mechanism on the main page to capture e-mail addresses for people who want to "subscribe" to the magazine (e.g. have it e-mailed to them when it is finished) or to volunteer to help spread it throughout internet land.
Yeah, what Cram just posted.
Another coup, I think, would be to somehow locate some spags who work in coffeeshops and similar places and who would be able to have a couple of publications lying around for their denizens to puruse while enjoying their joe. Or do we already have that sort of thing going on already?
oh good call! the real memetic trick is not to figure out how to get the magazine into the reader's hands. It's how to get the magazine into a distributer's hands. "Promiscuous Sneezers", as it were.
Meatspace
- coffee shops
- head shops
- zine writers
Cyberspace
We should really see if we can contact people in the current internet counterculture - groups like the former Technoccult site (now Renegade Futurist), Alterati (good for creative projects), the PDX Occulture lot...and work from there. The first two in particular churn out links and promotions like nobodies business, and with the added bonus of attracting our sort of crowd.
And an added bonus of me knowing most of the people involved in PDXO (which includes Technooccult/Renegade Futurist) personally ^__^.
This thread is interesting, but it brings to mind LMNO's Dictum:
QuoteThe imposition of order creates a corresponding and greater amount of disorder.
I'm interested, mostly to watch people herd cats.
Quote from: Cain on March 31, 2009, 03:32:33 PM
We should really see if we can contact people in the current internet counterculture - groups like the former Technoccult site (now Renegade Futurist), Alterati (good for creative projects), the PDX Occulture lot...and work from there. The first two in particular churn out links and promotions like nobodies business, and with the added bonus of attracting our sort of crowd.
Disinfo.com (http://www.disinfo.com/content/) would be a good target too. If there are enough of us there we could vote the story up and get it on the main page.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 01, 2009, 05:14:21 AM
This thread is interesting, but it brings to mind LMNO's Dictum:
QuoteThe imposition of order creates a corresponding and greater amount of disorder.
I'm interested, mostly to watch people herd cats.
That's my dictum? Did I mutter that during "the Incident" or something? All I can remember of that night is the smell of sulphur, and something moving in the mouth of the tunnel.
Can we start setting up a wiki page for these memetic infection vectors?
We can break it down into sections and have easy links to register for sites like stumbleupon, boingboing, LJ, etc, etc.
If we can make it very easy for the PD members that are less interested in trying to organize this thing to get all set up with accounts everywhere we need them, then we can have our mob pre-register over a few weeks time. Then once we have something ready to infect the web with we would have a large group of agents that can just jump in and start posting/commenting/bumpng our stuff all over without having to go through the hassle of signing up for each site right before they do so.
Quote from: LMNO on April 01, 2009, 01:28:09 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 01, 2009, 05:14:21 AM
This thread is interesting, but it brings to mind LMNO's Dictum:
QuoteThe imposition of order creates a corresponding and greater amount of disorder.
I'm interested, mostly to watch people herd cats.
That's my dictum? Did I mutter that during "the Incident" or something? All I can remember of that night is the smell of sulphur, and something moving in the mouth of the tunnel.
And the blood...THE BLOOD...
(http://imagecache5.art.com/p/LRG/20/2049/C8N4D00Z/i-wake-up-screaming.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/forumspecific/bump_miloflorence523.jpg)
My stints as Chaplain, Deacon, or Reverend, have gotten me chewing over the whole "Discordian Missionary" bit.
Other groups stand and preach. We can do it too, with better subject matter. It's great for networking and finding folks into the same ideas, but how do you REACH people?
Going back to the "authentic experience" discussion, Felix's reports of pitching BIP and so on at other forums, and people pitchign their own work here, I'm convinced that it's not going to be a quick project.
Even places where I've gone in with cred established, it's not always easy to get people into a new game / idea / discourse. Time, and gradual prodding of folks towards our ideas, or workign up their own, might be interesting to try.
Would it be worth doing VERY long term posting with a place?
It's been proven how to call out bullshit, break down idiots, or bring intelligent conversation to a halt, but could we improve / help develop a forum? There are plenty out there worth trashing, maybe find one worth playing with.
That's my brain dump.