I was sitting in on an AA meeting Wednesday afternoon, and that is sort of what spawned this. It is pretty disjointed and spat out really quick, so it probably sucks. Anyway...
AA meetings talk a lot about God, which is okay. I don't mind people being religious. But there's a point at which I start getting angry - that point is the point where phrases like, "If you have enough faith, God will give you what you need," and "God always helps those who deserve it," start getting thrown around. A couple of weeks ago, I heard some stuff like this at another meeting, put in a particularly patronizing way, and I got so visibly angry that my friend dragged me out of the meeting to listen to me rant for 5 minutes.
Supposing for a moment that God does exist, God does not give everybody who has faith what they need, and God does not always help those who deserve it. I have a friend who is seriously one of the sweetest, friendliest, most generous people I have ever met, and who has faith. He fell off a train tressel Wednesday night (if anybody here has seen the movie 'Lost Boys' it's the one in that movie) and is now in a coma in the hospital. In these people's worldviews, that shouldn't happen.
If God is what they seem to think - a force that cares about every individual and rewards those who deserve it - then why are plenty of good, faithful people homeless, or dying? If God is willing to take the time to help you quit alcohol, why won't he take the time to help somebody whose people are suffering from genocide? Why are you special? Maybe God just likes white, middle-class people better, I don't know. Not only is that a pretty shitty God, but it's a God I have an even harder time believing in than most.
The God they have there is the God they hope the idea of will pull someone's ass into a better life.
I'm sorry, Tempest. Your friend has my best wishes for his recovery.
I sometimes think that the Calvinists have the most accurate view of the Christian god. Only those he's chosen are the ones who get any of his help. Everyone else is doomed to misery, pain, and hell.
Quote from: Tempest Virago on March 22, 2009, 12:28:34 AM
I don't mind people being religious. But there's a point at which I start getting angry - that point is the point where phrases like, "If you have enough faith, God will give you what you need," and "God always helps those who deserve it," start getting thrown around. A couple of weeks ago, I heard some stuff like this at another meeting, put in a particularly patronizing way, and I got so visibly angry that my friend dragged me out of the meeting to listen to me rant for 5 minutes.
Supposing for a moment that God does exist, God does not give everybody who has faith what they need, and God does not always help those who deserve it. I have a friend who is seriously one of the sweetest, friendliest, most generous people I have ever met, and who has faith. He fell off a train tressel Wednesday night (if anybody here has seen the movie 'Lost Boys' it's the one in that movie) and is now in a coma in the hospital. In these people's worldviews, that shouldn't happen.
If God is what they seem to think - a force that cares about every individual and rewards those who deserve it - then why are plenty of good, faithful people homeless, or dying? If God is willing to take the time to help you quit alcohol, why won't he take the time to help somebody whose people are suffering from genocide? Why are you special? Maybe God just likes white, middle-class people better, I don't know. Not only is that a pretty shitty God, but it's a God I have an even harder time believing in than most.
Additionally, their worldview is
biblically inaccurate as well... The biblical Book of Job (http://www.kingjamesversionofthebible.com/18-job.html) basically centers around the Lord allowing the devil to torment and persecute a righteous man in order to settle a bet.
To the OP: the Pee-Oh-Pulls who believe in "God" never can answer all those hard-hitting questions. Guess why?
Their God is a prop for their self-righteous "I've got mine because I'm a better person and, furthermore, fuck you" worldview.
This and nothing more. Its like The Secret, only more socially acceptable.
The Christian God is a total dick.
I can understand worshipping him, but maybe people shouldn't harbor delusions that he's "love" or anything like that.
Wouldn't it make more sence to be a satanist?
Depends on the Satan, in one view the devil tried to force worshiping God down peoples throat.
Quote from: Requia on March 22, 2009, 09:33:53 PM
Depends on the Satan, in one view the devil tried to force worshiping God down peoples throat.
It helps to hide it in some cheese.
Satanists are invariably boring, self-glorifying douchebags or Christians who've gone psychotic. Either one seems a losing proposition.
LaVey figured out and put down in short order what it took a LOT of shrinks years to agree on. I'd give more credence to his writings and less to his church, though. You learn a lot as a Carnie.
Quote from: Tempest Virago on March 22, 2009, 12:28:34 AM
I was sitting in on an AA meeting Wednesday afternoon, and that is sort of what spawned this. It is pretty disjointed and spat out really quick, so it probably sucks. Anyway...
AA meetings talk a lot about God, which is okay. I don't mind people being religious. But there's a point at which I start getting angry - that point is the point where phrases like, "If you have enough faith, God will give you what you need," and "God always helps those who deserve it," start getting thrown around. A couple of weeks ago, I heard some stuff like this at another meeting, put in a particularly patronizing way, and I got so visibly angry that my friend dragged me out of the meeting to listen to me rant for 5 minutes.
Supposing for a moment that God does exist, God does not give everybody who has faith what they need, and God does not always help those who deserve it. I have a friend who is seriously one of the sweetest, friendliest, most generous people I have ever met, and who has faith. He fell off a train tressel Wednesday night (if anybody here has seen the movie 'Lost Boys' it's the one in that movie) and is now in a coma in the hospital. In these people's worldviews, that shouldn't happen.
If God is what they seem to think - a force that cares about every individual and rewards those who deserve it - then why are plenty of good, faithful people homeless, or dying? If God is willing to take the time to help you quit alcohol, why won't he take the time to help somebody whose people are suffering from genocide? Why are you special? Maybe God just likes white, middle-class people better, I don't know. Not only is that a pretty shitty God, but it's a God I have an even harder time believing in than most.
I wouldn't lose any more hair over this God thing if i were you. It has always seemed to me that it's a feeble attempt to assign meaning to (and thus validate) believers' lives/existences. During times of misfortune when circumstances imply there is no benevolent God looking out for his creations, it's just part of his mysterious 'plan' which is
obviously beyond our limited comprehension... a copout if i ever heard one.
You're friend will be okay, hopefully. I hope it works out the way you want it. Good luck to you and your friend
Quote from: Richter on March 22, 2009, 09:49:02 PM
LaVey figured out and put down in short order what it took a LOT of shrinks years to agree on. I'd give more credence to his writings and less to his church, though. You learn a lot as a Carnie.
If you're curious, head on over to EB&G and ask Bella about Satanists.
She's had first-hand experience with that particular form of douchebaggery-- her father is one.
WAS. He died recently. But yeah, Bella got to hang out with Anton LeVey and his ilk back in the day, poor thing.
Please tell me it was spontaneous combustion, or he got eated by an invisible monster in the middle of the town square.
I think he died in his sleep, the lucky fuck. I disremember the nitty gritty, but I remember thinking that for all he put Bella through, it was too easy a death by half.
Quote from: LMNO on March 23, 2009, 02:59:10 PM
Quote from: Richter on March 22, 2009, 09:49:02 PM
LaVey figured out and put down in short order what it took a LOT of shrinks years to agree on. I'd give more credence to his writings and less to his church, though. You learn a lot as a Carnie.
If you're curious, head on over to EB&G and ask Bella about Satanists.
She's had first-hand experience with that particular form of douchebaggery-- her father is one.
I only have interest in browsing LaVey for points that line up with the psych I know. I don't have the patience for his pet project.
They use the model that is most likely to work for the spags that want their help. Here in the US, generally speaking, people tend towards Christian beliefs. Therefore, if you're going to modify their mental programming, using YHVH along with his associated props, symbols and words is probably the most surefire way to connect with most people. The psychological handles are already there, ya just gotta pull them in the right way.
Personally, I think the whole concept of AA is a bad idea, but I can see why they might use the model they use.
Quote from: Cain on March 22, 2009, 09:39:49 PM
Satanists are invariably boring, self-glorifying douchebags or Christians who've gone psychotic. Either one seems a losing proposition.
This.
AA are infamous for their use of god. 12 step programs rely on the belief of a higher power giving you strength to quit. it's bullshit but its how they run.
on a side note, the majority of people who enter 12 step programs never actually recover.
Quote from: Lyris_Nymphetamine on March 24, 2009, 04:09:46 AM
the majority of people who enter 12 step programs never actually recover.
i have always wondered if that wasn't because of these steps
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable. (what i hear -
you have no power over your life, you are fucked no matter what)
2. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. ( what i hear -
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of something that may not exist)
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. ( what i hear -
invisible man in sky who may not exist will do the work for you)
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings ( what i hear -
invisible man in sky who may not exist will do the work for you if you ask nicely)
maybe i am being too harsh since they are trying to help.. or maybe its as fucked up as it sounds to me??
the rest of the steps sound a bit better.
It is fucked up. Its also essentially a cult:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/ofcourse.htm
QuoteFor decades, millions of people have suspected, believed, or known that Alcoholics Anonymous is religious. Anyone can see that it is, yet an entire nation accepted its sophomoric disclaimer, "Not religious, just spiritual." Recently, however, federal courts have asserted, "AA is unequivocally religious." They only looked at AA's doctrinal literature, and unhesitatingly declared what is obvious to anyone.
QuoteTo AA believers, AA doctrine must be correct, as it is written. No one may speak of the incoherence of AA doctrine, and group interaction is designed to prevent or contain skepticism. "Your best thinking got you here." "There's no one too dumb to get this program, but many are too intelligent." "Expect a miracle."
QuoteAA lore is replete with injunctions to devote one's life in every way to the cult itself. One may not take credit for abstinence or relief from despair; the only benefactor is AA or God, and the only proper attitude is gratitude. [The AA book] Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions sets forth Tradition One as, "Our common welfare should come first." AA presents itself as necessary to life itself: "...without AA we will perish." Any criticism of the Program or of AA is regarded as heresy that endangers the lives of AA'ers everywhere, and must be silenced by admonitions or mottos. Members dwell upon themselves endlessly, working steps on themselves, and attending [meetings] as part of methodical spiritual growth. Step meetings focus on philosophical minutia, and an endless stream of new books on step-recovery, many [published by] Hazelden, are found in bookstores for the struggling recovering alcoholics.
QuoteThe tens of thousands of people who have called us in despair have been mistreated by members of AA — by fellow groupers, by sponsors, by step-oriented counselors and therapists, and by stepping judges and physicians. The abuses are surprisingly similar and few in type, the most common being the insistence that AA is the only possible remedy for addiction, leaving the subject depressed and hopeless. The use of death threats is universal within the recovery group movement, drawing on the tone and passages from "The Big Book" which predict death for nonbelievers and dropouts.
I've known a few AA participants. When they're on board with it, they all seem infatuated with telling everyone they know how if you drink, you're an alcoholic. They have some suspiciously circular logic to back this up too.
"cult like" is a good description of AA followers and the AA program.
i never understood the first step if i am down and struggling with any problem, the last thing i would want to do is assume a mindset that i am powerless :argh!:
the turning your life over to "god",sponsors or meetings is the same first step in any cult...
The way I understand it, the HARDCORE alcoholic (of which there are, IMO, actually fairly few of, relatively speaking) is functionally insane. Their brains simply do not function in the same way as most brains after decades of severe alcohol abuse.
It seems to me that one of the most effecient and long-term ways to combat this is to completely reprogram the brain. Yes, I mean brainwashing. Strip the subject's consciousness down to its very core, and build it up again with strict Overlord-ian rules and habits. Many of the methods described in AA are similar to other popular brainwashing techniques:
Confess your sins (regularly, and repeatedly), which breaks down your ego.
Abandon your past life and relationships completely and absolutely, which puts you in emotionally vulnerable territory.
Have the cult's adherents express love and admiration at you, which builds up the new identity of "self".
Proscribe strict and unflinching rules of behavior.
Employs chants and slogans that mentally enforce the behavior.
And you know what? For a HARDCORE alcoholic, this is far preferrable to a life on the bottle.
But, as I noted above, the kind of people who are so far gone that AA is better than death are relatively small. Instead, you have people for whom booze is more like a really, really bad habit. They don't need indoctrination, they need techniques for building willpower, which IMO is opposite of cult indoctrination.
However, AA couldn't survive on only treating the hardcore boozehound. There aren't enough of them. So, they perpetuate the idea that the latter drunks are the same as the former.
And profit from them. Not financially, but in terms of a self-propagating organization, which is necessary when your rentention rates are so low.
Kind of like how authoritarian religions have so many people leaving, they place empahsis on conversion to make up for it.
Yeah, I guess I left that part unsaid.
Props for the follow-up.
IMO, a person seeing a licensed professional is going to work much better. And often times those professionals can get you into a group where you can get support from other alcoholics without the BS of AA. However, in some regions of the country, AA may be all that is available in terms of proximity and financially. If we were able to make treatment more available and more affordable, AA would dry up, pardon the pun.
Yeah, the article I linked mentioned they often have to rely on forcing people to go there to keep their numbers up. I know if I was suffering from alcohol addiction, and I had a choice between a licenced professional with occasional group therapy, or the AA, I'd take the former every single time.
i get the impression there is a big guilt trip if you don't attend the meetings "you missed a meeting you are falling back into your old ways and will be drinking again soon"
The thing with AA, NA, and GA (the last two being Narcotics Anonymous and Gamblers Anonymous) is that they can pretty much be a crapshoot. People come and go. One week you'll have two people staring at each other, another week you'll have a huge, probably unmanageable group. And then, depending on what kind of personalities you have in the room, it could end up being a huge clusterfuck that just leaves people more frustrated and hopeless. It really depends on who's leading the group too. Just so many variables at play. I'd say a very good example of destructive disorder.
I got an acronym for you:
F
I
N
E
Foghat's Importance Needs Explaining?
Oh, I thought she was talking about me. :cry:
Quote from: LMNO on March 24, 2009, 01:34:37 PM
Confess your sins (regularly, and repeatedly), which breaks down your ego.
Abandon your past life and relationships completely and absolutely, which puts you in emotionally vulnerable territory.
Have the cult's adherents express love and admiration at you, which builds up the new identity of "self".
Proscribe strict and unflinching rules of behavior.
Employs chants and slogans that mentally enforce the behavior.
You just described the Mormon church. :lulz:
And Band Camp.
And "High School Musical."
Fucked Up
Insecure
Narcissistic
Egomaniac
That's the acronym AA teaches you when they ask you how you are and you reply in group session that you're "Fine."
you are joking right???
Nope. They don't let you say "Fine," and they tell you that "Fine" is a code-word for the above acronym.
It's to get people to talk, since they are in group therapy through AA to do just that. They use it for Narcs Anon and a bunch of others, too.
No doubt they introduce these words as some sort of "new speak" or something....
i hereby rescind any reservations i had about being to harsh in my opinion of AA
I'd imagine hearing "I'm Fine" in the group therapy sessions gets old, but yeah, it's interesting they use this tactic to get people to talk. I think the 12 steps are more annoying, however.
My mom quit drinking when I was 12 and started going to AA, and I had to go to Alateen. I also went to a ton of meetings with her, and also her social circle became completely revolved around AA.
For short-term help in quitting drinking, I think it's pretty helpful. For long-term support though, I think it's incredibly unhealthy and dysfunctional. They tend to be tremendously insular, cult-like, and judgmental. They look down on people getting sober without AA, and refer to most people who do so as "dry drunks" because they haven't "worked the steps". If someone has a beer, they've "relapsed" and they "lose their time" and have to turn in the chips that signify how long they've been sober, which encourages wholesale benders if someone slips and has a beer... some people even think a normal dose of cough syrup counts as a "relapse".
After 6 years of intimate experience with it, I think AA is a sick model.
Yeah, that "dry drunk" thing is horrormirth personified. Basically gives the recovering AA peeps a ticket to be a complete and total chode, from what I can see.
Quote from: fomenter on March 25, 2009, 04:40:12 PM
i hereby rescind any reservations i had about being to harsh in my opinion of AA
As LMNO pointed out, there IS in fact a use for these overbearing brainwashing fucktards, its just an uncommon one.
IMO, alchoholism (True I Have to Have A Billion Drinks Or Else I Get Delerium Tremens and Fucking DIE Alchoholism IE: ALCHOHOL FUCKING FUELS MY EXISTENCE ALCHOHOLISM) should be dealt with by any means possible, and brainwashing is an effective tool for this. Also, he points out that this is relatively rare, which is true.
On the other hand, other detox methods exist (I saw an episode of house once where they put a guy in a phenobarbitol coma to combat the DT's, and thought this was hilarious, and I hope this accurately represents standard medical procedure as is my wont).
As for another possible substitute for AA, therapy?
Quote from: Nigel on March 25, 2009, 06:12:49 PM
My mom quit drinking when I was 12 and started going to AA, and I had to go to Alateen. I also went to a ton of meetings with her, and also her social circle became completely revolved around AA.
For short-term help in quitting drinking, I think it's pretty helpful. For long-term support though, I think it's incredibly unhealthy and dysfunctional. They tend to be tremendously insular, cult-like, and judgmental. They look down on people getting sober without AA, and refer to most people who do so as "dry drunks" because they haven't "worked the steps". If someone has a beer, they've "relapsed" and they "lose their time" and have to turn in the chips that signify how long they've been sober, which encourages wholesale benders if someone slips and has a beer... some people even think a normal dose of cough syrup counts as a "relapse".
After 6 years of intimate experience with it, I think AA is a sick model.
I despise AA. The whole "it's all about me" thought pattern they instill in those recovering does nothing but support their whole reason for drinking in the first place. The you have to take care of you because you are the most important..... BULLSHIT! Maybe if you are single with no hope of having any type of functional relationship yeah! Otherwise, give me a fucking break!
I worked for a woman who was a long time AA member, mentor etc... she liked to hire AA members. Now if one of us called in sick we got our asses reamed, but if one of her AA employees called in needing a "me" day it was all smiles and lollipops.
I agree with Nigel here as it is a great first step program. Maybe for a 6 months to a year, but after that, alcoholics need to face why they were drinking in the first place and deal with the mental and emotional issues that led them to drink! Continuing on in the AA "take care of me" holding pattern does nothing to actually "cure" the problem!
Quote from: Jenne on March 22, 2009, 09:07:58 AM
To the OP: the Pee-Oh-Pulls who believe in "God" never can answer all those hard-hitting questions. Guess why?
Speaking of questions, and sorry if this is too much thread drift...
Was sitting in the Darwin Seminar this morning, and my adviser spoke up about the reason that science can't argue with religion. He said that science works upon testable hypotheses and a changing base of knowlege, while fundamentalists work from the static divine, untestable unquestionable truth of the bible. Its god's words is the premise they work from, so there is no need for any questioning and testing within those bounds. You will never ever convince a creationist literalist with science. He went on to say that his (late) mentor was asked once to take part in a debate with creationists. The mentor refused, saying "I speak as a scientist. I can't possibly use the Language of Man to communicate with the Language of Angels."
Quote from: L.D.D. Szarowka on April 14, 2009, 04:26:26 AM
one thing that everyone seemed to overlook... if you dont like AA so much - what were you doing there?
In some areas it looks to be the only therapy provided. Sometimes you can be given the "choice" to go there or go to prison, depending on particular circumstances. Furthermore, cults build psychological dependency. Many people wont know about such things until they are already in, and by that point it may be very hard to leave. Some may have already left, and are trying to warn others.
The more interesting question is why you are trying to simplify the circumstances as to why one may or may not go to the AA?