Yeah so, I've been reading Dawkins' "The God Delusion", and it's as expected, but one or two points got me to thinking.
He brings up the old argument that he believes what his physic book says, because you can go through it and do the math, and reach the same conclusion, as long as you didn't make any mistakes, and the Bible can't make the same claim (I'm just paraphrasing here).
So, the first thing I thought was what happens when a person, let's say Heisenberg, writes a book on the nature of very, very small things, and how they move. And let's say that he finds that you can either set a detector to find a particle's position, or you can set it to find the particle's momentum.
So then some other person reads that book, and writes another book saying that in Quantum Physics, when things get really small, you can either measure something as a particle to find its position, or you can measure it as a wave to find its momentum.
Then a third person writes a book that says Quantum Physics says things are both particles and waves, and you can't know both where it is and how fast its going at the same time.
A fourth person steps in and writes that Quantum stuff is BOTH a wave AND a particle, but as soon as you measure it, it becomes either one or the other.
And to finish it off, someone tells you at a cocktail party that Science proves things change when you look at them, because of Quantum. And then he holds up Heisenberg's book as proof, and uses Dawkins' argument.
We are now in the position where what the person believes is utterly wrong, the evidence which is in his hands, and they will probably never actually open the book to read what it says.
Then I had a follow-up thought: How could this apply to religion?
Let's take as a start the idea of the Transcendental Moment. This is that speechless, over-awed, blessed-out experience some people sometimes get, when they feel both at One with everything, and so is as large as the Universe.
If that sounds like babble, that's because the Moment seems to be essentially beyond words. As soon as you try to describe it, you've broken it up into pieces (cross-reference, "the Tao that can be told is not the Tao"; Zen monks pointing at things rather than talking about them).
Anyway, what if... What if someone a long time ago had that Experience, and actually DID try to write them down? But since there are no words that can describe it, they tried to get it down in metaphors, or a series of actions, or ways to behave.
So then, we apply our "Quantum" example above to this bit of garbled poetic experience, and draw it out over millennia. It wouldn't be difficult to imagine that once a large enough group of people pointed to the Book without understanding what was in it, the original words would start accreting cultural and political flotsam around themselves, further confusing and garbling the message.
Eventually, you'd wind up with this venerated and jumbled assortment of ancient history, political machinations, misunderstood interpretations, and pure fabrications... with a tiny, misunderstood, unnoticed, mistranslated, forgotten bit of "knowledge": Which isn't even knowledge, but an attempt to describe a Transcendent Moment.
But, if you took the time and the effort to scrape away all the barnacles of ignorance, and got to the source, you might find where your religion came from.
IAWTC!
I call this phenomenon the "chinese whispers effect"
and you're right - it seems to apply to science equally effectively. :mittens:
So, once you've had the transcendental experience to which you refer, you find yourself in the position to read the religious texts (pretty much any religious text) critically and, more often than not, understand what the author was getting at. Then you look at the popular interpretation and, between facepalms, come to one inescapable conclusion - writing that shit was one of the stupidest things a wise person has ever done.
Duquotte in Chicken Cabala makes a very good case that Genesis was an allegorical tale chock full of instructions and examples of the path towards enlightenment and Unity, but it was not meant for public consumption, it was meant for other high-level talmudic scholars. Just like most people wouldn't be able to make sense of a post-grad Math student's PhD thesis, they didn't understand what Genesis "meant".
So is the importance in the Transcendent Moment itself, or the meaning behind/associated with it?
Because, it seems that we would only be able to understand this meaning as far as our language can carry us....
Quote from: Iptuous on March 24, 2009, 05:36:31 PM
So is the importance in the Transcendent Moment itself, or the meaning behind/associated with it?
Because, it seems that we would only be able to understand this meaning as far as our language can carry us....
I'd be more likely to say that the TM
happens sometimes. And it's very different from everyday life.
And perhaps we
ascribe importance to it, because of the "raised consciousness" it sometimes appears to be.
Perhaps we think it has some "meaning" only because it is rare, and different.
As far as understanding it, I disagree; I do not think that the mind thinks only in words. If the mind can
experience the TM, it should also be able to
understand it.
However, it seem the trouble comes in
communicating it.
I believe that the indescribable feeling obtained from TM is basically a self-induced trip. I think the same thing can basically be accomplished with LSD, DXM, or shrooms.
Do I belong in this thread?
Quote from: LMNO on March 24, 2009, 05:33:34 PM
Duquotte in Chicken Cabala makes a very good case that Genesis was an allegorical tale chock full of instructions and examples of the path towards enlightenment and Unity, but it was not meant for public consumption, it was meant for other high-level talmudic scholars. Just like most people wouldn't be able to make sense of a post-grad Math student's PhD thesis, they didn't understand what Genesis "meant".
I've studied genesis in relation to medieval hermetic thought, which leads in a nice loop straight back to the TOL.
Quotethese 32 paths are revealed also in the first Chapter of Genesis, where the name of God (here Elohim) appears 32 times. The expression "God said" appears ten times, each representing one of the spheres, and the remaining 22 times the name appears each represent one of the paths and one of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet.
From this I drew the conclusion that the start of genesis would apply to pretty much anything the TOL can be mapped to.
Also this "Chicken Cabala" looks like an interesting read. Do you or Cain perhaps have a pdf I could borrow?
Quote from: hunter s.durden on March 24, 2009, 05:55:27 PM
I believe that the indescribable feeling obtained from TM is basically a self-induced trip. I think the same thing can basically be accomplished with LSD, DXM, or shrooms.
Do I belong in this thread?
I 'd say that was a pretty accurate assessment. Would you discount the whole thing as a lightshow or do you think there's some insight to be gained from the experience? If so discuss.
Quote from: LMNO on March 24, 2009, 05:48:03 PM
As far as understanding it, I disagree; I do not think that the mind thinks only in words. If the mind can experience the TM, it should also be able to understand it.
However, it seem the trouble comes in communicating it.
Hm....i guess i was thinking that, although we think in modes other than language, that we only
understand through language. perhaps i don't understand because my words are not sorted properly.... :)
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 24, 2009, 05:57:53 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on March 24, 2009, 05:55:27 PM
I believe that the indescribable feeling obtained from TM is basically a self-induced trip. I think the same thing can basically be accomplished with LSD, DXM, or shrooms.
Do I belong in this thread?
I 'd say that was a pretty accurate assessment. Would you discount the whole thing as a lightshow or do you think there's some insight to be gained from the experience? If so discuss.
Lightshow. The only insight I think that can be derived from it is that the human brain is a lonely little creature, and will do anything to connect to something. I think it's the equivalent of seeing 5's everywhere, or assuming that good fortunes are caused by obedience to a deity.
Humans are the most social creatures on the planet, to the point of reaching out to other species and even inanimate object for some sort of affection or validation. The TM reaction is that biological need expressing itself.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 24, 2009, 05:57:53 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on March 24, 2009, 05:55:27 PM
I believe that the indescribable feeling obtained from TM is basically a self-induced trip. I think the same thing can basically be accomplished with LSD, DXM, or shrooms.
Do I belong in this thread?
I 'd say that was a pretty accurate assessment. Would you discount the whole thing as a lightshow or do you think there's some insight to be gained from the experience? If so discuss.
I'd agree with Hunter. As far as P3nt's question, wouldn't you say that if we can gain insight from a song or poem or book, why couldn't we gain insight from a mental lightshow?
Of course, just because you drop acid doesn't mean you'll get any insight. It's what you do afterwards in reaction to the trip.
For my part I found it gave me insight into the phenomenon of mind, among other things. A point of view or context which is not filtered through the ordinary mental processes kinda puts the whole thing in perspective. I'm getting dangerously close to writing the Qur'an here tho so I'll shut up now :oops:
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/aba1.html
The Preliminary Remarks are what clicked between the OP and this Crowley piece:
QuoteEXISTENCE, as we know it, is full of sorrow. To mention only one minor point: every man is a condemned criminal, only he does not know the date of his execution. This is unpleasant for every man. Consequently every man does everything possible to postpone the date, and would sacrifice anything that he has if he could reverse the sentence.
Practically all religions and all philosophies have started thus crudely, by promising their adherents some such reward as immortality.
No religion has failed hitherto by not promising enough; the present breaking up of all religions is due to the fact that people have asked to see the securities. Men have even renounced the important material advantages which a well-organized religion may confer upon a State, rather than acquiesce in fraud or falsehood, or even in any system which, if not proved guilty, is at least unable to demonstrate its innocence.
Being more or less bankrupt, the best thing that we can do is to attack the problem afresh without preconceived ideas. Let us begin by doubting every statement. Let us find a way of subjecting every statement to the test of experiment. Is there any truth at all in the claims of various religions? Let us examine the question.
Our original difficulty will be due to the enormous wealth of our material. To enter into a critical examination of all systems would be an unending task; the cloud of witnesses is too great. Now each religion is equally positive; and each demands faith. This we refuse in the absence of positive proof. But we may usefully inquire whether there is not any one thing upon which all religions have agreed: for, if so, it seems possible that it may be worthy of really thorough consideration.
It is certainly not to be found in dogma. Even so simple an idea as that of a supreme and eternal being is denied by a third of the human race. Legends of miracle are perhaps universal, but these, in the absence of demonstrative proof, are repugnant to common sense.
But what of the origin of religions? How is it that unproved assertion has so frequently compelled the assent of all classes of mankind? Is not this a miracle?
There is, however, one form of miracle which certainly happens, the influence of the genius. There is no known analogy in Nature. One cannot even think of a "super-dog" transforming the world of dogs, whereas in the history of mankind this happens with regularity and frequency. Now here are three "super-men," all at loggerheads. What is there in common between Christ, Buddha, and Mohammed? Is there any one point upon which all three are in accord?
No point of doctrine, no point of ethics, no theory of a "hereafter" do they share, and yet in the history of their lives we find one identity amid many diversities.
Buddha was born a Prince, and died a beggar.
Mohammed was born a beggar, and died a Prince.
Christ remained obscure until many years after his death.
Elaborate lives of each have been written by devotees, and there is one thing common to all three -- an omission. We hear nothing of Christ between the ages of twelve and thirty. Mohammed disappeared into a cave. Buddha left his palace, and went for a long while into the desert.
Each of them, perfectly silent up to the time of the disappearance, came back and immediately began to preach a new law.
This is so curious that it leaves us to inquire whether the histories of other great teachers contradict or confirm.
Moses led a quiet life until his slaying of the Egyptian. He then flees into the land of Midian, and we hear nothing of what he did there, yet immediately on his return he turns the whole place upside down. Later on, too, he absents himself on Mount Sinai for a few days, and comes back with the Tables of the Law in his hand.
St. Paul (again), after his adventure on the road to Damascus, goes into the desert of Arabia for many years, and on his return overturns the Roman Empire. Even in the legends of savages we find the same thing universal; somebody who is nobody in particular goes away for a longer or shorter period, and comes back as the "great medicine man"; but nobody ever knows exactly what happened to him.
Making every possible deduction for fable and myth, we get this one coincidence. A nobody goes away, and comes back a somebody. This is not to be explained in any of the ordinary ways....
tl;dr;nr
From my notebook as I was thinking about this, it might simplify the point:
"Noobs take science books and treat them as gospel, without actually doing the work. Did noob spiritualists do the same?"
Quote from: LMNO on March 24, 2009, 07:09:39 PM
tl;dr;nr
From my notebook as I was thinking about this, it might simplify the point:
"Noobs take science books and treat them as gospel, without actually doing the work. Did noob spiritualists do the same?"
I think you are discounting the real playa in this picture, the middleman, the guy who read the book, got the picture but also saw the mindfuck/power serving/cash cow - potential and made a couple of clever edits.
Enter that roman fuck and the rest is all she wrote. Noob spiritualists never stood a chance
Well, yeah. That was just the spark that set me off.
Think about New Agers who use "Quantum" to justify their shit. The Secret already has thousands of adherents, and it's not even 5 years old, yet. Give it another thousand.
i think the TM zen experience does have value, and as lmno is saying the understanding of it is lost by those who try to describe it with words, get it from preachers or pay for it from gurus,
the noob spiritualist is lost, as soon as the guy who understands it and knows to point at it without speaking is dead, all second generation teachers are suspect, because its a DYS project and the further you get from the guy that knows it, the more verbal diarrhea and for money/power con-artistry there will be piled on the DYS message.
the OP science-quantum description of this is a good one ...
why i think the TM zen experience is useful is well discussed in the chi and zen swordsman threads,
I commented once, during a religion-centric conversation, "If Jesus really was as smart as everyone seems to think he'd have known to keep his fucking mouth shut"
Something about these texts seems to make them ideal fodder for mind control cults. I guess it's because the "trancendental effect" is replicable - you can lead an initiate to the gates and push him through but, as you so correctly pointed out, "It's what you do afterwards in reaction to the trip"
If you work it out or have it explained to you by someone who has your best interests at heart then you win a watch. If, however they guy who's leading you through it decides to palm you off with some insane fairy tale about an invisible all seeing monster judging your immortal soul, and puts himself in the position of said monster's executive officer on earth then you have a whole world of stoopid ahead.
It get's worse with subsequent generations, the blind lead the blind and, very quickly, the whole system becomes a totally co-opted money making mindfuck.
I'd go out on a limb and say that the chances of any "classical" religion or sect thereof, surviving more than a couple of milliseconds after the original bodhisattva kicks the bucket (if it even goes that long) is about a billion to one (approx)
Give it a couple of thousand years and adherence will pretty much guarantee complete lack of enlightenment.
So yeah, once in a while, the penny may drop for one of the cultists, via one or other of the alternative ways of experiencing and lead a small but growing band of followers to the promised land but the same rule applies - give it a couple of years and someone will be making a shitload of cash from other peoples ignorance.
*edit* was writing this while fomenter posted and we seem to be on the same page but I used much moar words so fuck you I win :lulz:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 24, 2009, 08:05:03 PM
*edit* was writing this while fomenter posted and we seem to be on the same page but I used much moar words so fuck you I win :lulz:
(http://www.clipartheaven.com/clipart/hands/finger_pointing_2.gif)
:thanks:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 24, 2009, 08:05:03 PM
I'd go out on a limb and say that the chances of any "classical" religion or sect thereof, surviving more than a couple of milliseconds after the original bodhisattva kicks the bucket (if it even goes that long) is about a billion to one (approx)
agreed.
but you cant really tell an 'original bodhisattva' from a clever conman that thought to start this cult, either.
The danger that comes with "Letting someone else think for you."