I hate making new topics. I always feel like I'm going to piss someone off by stepping on their carefully arranged threads and end up with a pair of gardening shears jammed in my trachea, and maybe a spade in my face if the person in question was particularly fond of this patch of topics. But sometimes, risks must be taken, as when I find myself with a good idea and no one to help me with it.
I am not fond of the view that the BIP was too dark. Have you seen where you're living? The BIP was a shiny beam of hope through the black cloudy sky of bad shit followed by worse piss. Attempting to make the BIP more friendly is like attempting to make the PD more batshit bonkers -- it's pointlessly beating a horse that should have been ground to dust long ago, the only difference is in degrees. The world isn't all sunshine and lollipops, folks.
Rather than rant, I want to save my pent up rage and sarcasm for a completely new work. This is not a BIP revamp, in fact it's only tangentially related to that particular work. A short discussion with Cain led me to change my tune that it should be completely dark though. Rather, it should start quite nice, with lots of artificial lights, things that seem comfortingly true, then break the bulbs one by one to show the hideous spectre behind the shininess.
In my short discussion with Cain, I came to the conslusion that this would be best served by using the major arcana of the tarot as metaphors, and Silent Hill's dark/light dichotomy for inspiration on how to handle the reversals.
Problem is, I'm not happy. I can't possibly be happy with this fucked up shithole we live in. I can't SEE the lights everyone else does.
So I need one of you hippies to help me write this.
For the interested: You should expect to write either a full page or a half page for each and every one of the Arcana (one or the other for all of them), emphasizing the "good" qualities of each that discordians and other TFYS groups see. Even if you don't agree with those lights, write them as convincingly as possible. Obviously, I will accept only one person for this position depending on who I feel is most fit for it in terms of viewpoint -- that means cynical assholes may go elsewhere and gleefully await the final product.
For the argumentative: I am not doing this to cater to mooks who prefer to frolick with the fairies in the fields even as the excrement begins to hit the ventilator. My goal here is to present something that dispells illusions, encourages pessimism, and MAKES PEOPLE THINK. Luckily, I doubt this will be addressed to many people -- you lot all seem to encourage creativity, regardless of whether or not you agree with the intent.
Interested parties should have some form of IM client so I can discuss the idea with them while we're working on the thing. IRC works too. Not entirely necessary, but it'd be a big, big help.
Aaand I think that's all. Sorry if I came off as a cunt here, I'm channelling the pure distilled wrath of the gods and that comes with side effects.
How do you propose to tie the major Arcana to the BiP? I mean both can be used to discuss psychological concepts, but I'm not sure I see a very close tie here... maybe you could be a bit more detailed about what you'd like to see? I'm not sure how to tie "Rather, it should start quite nice, with lots of artificial lights, things that seem comfortingly true, then break the bulbs one by one to show the hideous spectre behind the shininess" with the arcana...
Of course, I'm not even sure how to tie that quote with the concept of the BiP, so....
I dunno, as a Discordian who works with Tarot, I really am not sure how I would tie it together.
It's not a BIP revamp. Otherwise I'd just use a graveyard for the metaphor.
It's another TFYS-inspired thing entirely.
Sorry I didn't make that completely clear, should I edit the OP?
Quote from: Erin Gardien on April 21, 2009, 09:50:59 PM
It's not a BIP revamp. Otherwise I'd just use a graveyard for the metaphor.
It's another TFYS-inspired thing entirely.
Sorry I didn't make that completely clear, should I edit the OP?
yes!
So you're looking for a bright view of *something* using the tarot arcana, but you want to eventually lead people to the darkness hiding behind the light?
But, is the *something* one's perception of reality/reality tunnels or imprints or something else?
We have arguments all the time about what the BiP 'is', Cainad talks about the two BiP's... which are you looking at here?
It's not a BIP in the regular sense. It's not a reality tunnel. It's a sort of defense mechanism that keeps us thinking "the world isn't all that bad and we shouldn't be pessimistic."
I'll edit the OP now.
I like the idea, and I would give it a shot if I had time, but I don't. Good luck with this.
I may have something for you, Erin.
Gimme some time to work it over a few times.
I'll most likely discuss it with you in IRC.
Quotedispells illusions, encourages pessimism, and MAKES PEOPLE THINK
But, might pessimism not be just another illusion that makes it easy to not think? 'We're screwed and its not gonna change" doesn't seem to engender thinking...
That would be fatalism. Pessimism and fatalism aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't the same thing either.
Quote from: Erin Gardien on April 21, 2009, 10:46:33 PM
That would be fatalism. Pessimism and fatalism aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't the same thing either.
Well, then could you clarify what you're pessimism entails?
I worded that wrong. Cynicism is more in line with what I meant. Can't be assed editing right now.
"Long hast thou dwelt in optimism - quit the light and seek the dark"
:lulz:
Sounds interesting, I'd like to try writing a few.
Richter, I wanted this to be more focused than previous stuff like the BIP, with just me and one other person doing all of the writing. If you'd like to write all of the associate mental blocks, that's fine, but I can't accept just a few for various reasons, one of which is consistency.
Cool, I'll have to catch you on IRC for more redundant questions about overall idea for this.
If not, have fun.
This is an interesting idea.
I'd suggest someone in the SSOOKN - Mangrove would be my first choice.
If it's just the Major Arcana, that shouldn't be too hard, provided you establish your set range to go looking for connections.
I am (obviously) completely unqualified to help with this, being both completely unfamiliar with tarot AND the most cynical bastard I know, but I eagerly await the finished product.
How serious are we talking about with the Tarot and Major Arcana here? Does the second result on a Google search count as a legitimate source?
Because if it does, then I think your work is cut out for you in at least a few cases. I've added emphasis for bits that sound especially Discordian/BIP-ish.
Quote from: http://www.wyrdology.com/scrying/tarot/fool.htmlThe Fool is the most complex and most contradictory of all the Tarot cards.
The number zero is usually associated with this card. In fact this is simply a shorthand for saying that The Fool has no number. He is outside of such systems: "I am not a number, I am a free man". As such this card can be considered to fall at the beginning of the major Arcana, or at the end, or anywhere in between.
The Fool represents naivety and childlike innocence - yet the Fool is wise.
He carries only what possessions he really needs, having thrown off the rest of the materialistic baggage that we carry. He journeys through life, tasting everything it has to offer then letting it go and moving on.
In many Tarot decks The Fool is illustrated as being about to step off a cliff. Is this symbolic of dangerous, impulsive risk-taking? Or does it indicate one who simply refuses to be held back by the problems life throws in our path.
Whether the Fool represents opportunity or danger one thing is clear: this world needs more fools.
Quote from: http://www.wyrdology.com/scrying/tarot/magician.htmlThe Magician (Magus) is a card of power. Power over the elements, power over others - or the ultimate power, power over oneself.
This is card One - and "1" is also "I".
The Magician, also known as Magus, represents those aspects of the personality traditionally considered "masculine". He is in control. He knows how things work, he can analyse them in detail. He takes action and makes things happen.
This is a forceful, dynamic Tarot card, yet one that operates through the power of Will rather than brute force. If knowledge is power then the Magician represents the application of knowledge. The Magician creates his desired reality.
When this card appears in a Tarot spread it indicates the attainment of goals through the application of knowledge and Will. If badly aspected in a spread, this card can represent abuse of power. It can indicate manipulation of others, trickery and deception.
The Magician can be both sage and conjuror.
Quote from: http://www.wyrdology.com/scrying/tarot/hermit.htmlThe Hermit is a lone figure, walking through the darkness carrying the light. The light can be a great burden but is also a great gift.
The Hermit is a quiet, contemplative card. While others rush around and shout, he sits quietly alone and thinks. He goes deep within to reach wisdom.
The Hermit is a careful planner, never rushing into anything. Yet when he does act he does so all the more effectively, applying the results of his contemplation to overcome previously insurmountable obstacles. He knows the outcome of the game before making the first move.
If well aspected in a Tarot reading, this card can indicate contemplation leading to new wisdom and inner strength. It can also indicate obtaining wise counsel from such a person.
If badly aspected this card can indicate excessive isolation and withdrawl, refusal to cooperate or be involved with others.
If you can see no way out then look inwards.
Quote from: http://www.wyrdology.com/scrying/tarot/moon.htmlThe Moon is one of the most complex Tarot cards. It represents the inner depths of the psyche, the powers of intuition and illusion.
The word "lunatic" is appropriate here. This is the card of the madman, the drug addict and the creative genius. Of the tortured soul.
The card shows a dark landscape illuminated only by the clear, white light of the Moon - light which is itself a reflection and hence illusion. Scorpions and wolves await the unwary traveller attempting to pass between the forbidding towers.
Yet this is also a landscape of great power, there is much to be learned here; if one can survive the perils and cope with the contradictions inherent therein.
Truth is falsehood. Reality is illusion. Nothing is real.
When the Moon appears in a Tarot spread it often represents emotional challenges, inner turmoil and psychic disturbance. There can be a lack of clarity in dealing with the mundane world, an excess of dreaming. Whether or not these experiences can be worked through and harnessed depends on the querent.
There is a budding morrow in the midnight.
Quote from: http://www.wyrdology.com/scrying/tarot/devil.htmlDespite its fearsome appearance, The Devil is a card of weakness. It is one of the few cards in the Tarot deck that almost always has negative connotations when it occurs in a reading.
The card shows two slaves chained to the Devil. Yet they are there from choice, the chains are of their own making. Negative emotions, hate, jealousy, authoritarianism - all these character flaws bring one to the feet of the Devil.
Is the Devil himself merely a creation of willing slaves?
The true sadness is that some people come to accept and even revel in their position as slaves to their negative tendancies. They take on a "victim mentality" or, worse, seek in turn to control the lives of others.
Yet they could escape any time - if they only had the Will.
When the Devil appears in a Tarot spread it can represent lack of achievement through negative thoughts. It suggests character flaws such as greed, bitterness and authoritarianism. All these things can ultimately destroy a person. The rest of the Tarot spread will determine whether or not the querent will overcome their problems or continue blindly on.
Your cage is unlocked - are you brave enough to leave?
Dang, with interpretations like these, working the entire major arcana into a Discordian and/or TFYS,S! context shouldn't be too terribly difficult.
I didn't know that site existed. I think I might be able to write this all myself. Applicants still welcome, 'course.
Since tarot interpretations are so loose and generally up for grabs, it wouldn't be too hard to simply create a Discordian Major Arcana.
Sure, but that's not my goal. I'll just be straightforward: this isn't going to be Discordian. I don't like Discordianism. I like the sentiment behind it, and I'm doing this with that in mind.
How can you not like Discordianism, when it's what you make of it?
Well, I guess you can just make something you don't like of it. Never mind, stupid question.
Quote from: Erin Gardien on April 23, 2009, 03:44:00 AM
Sure, but that's not my goal. I'll just be straightforward: this isn't going to be Discordian. I don't like Discordianism.
Who the hell does? It's positively fucking wretched.
Worst religion ever.
Quote from: Erin Gardien on April 23, 2009, 03:44:00 AM
Sure, but that's not my goal. I'll just be straightforward: this isn't going to be Discordian. I don't like Discordianism. I like the sentiment behind it, and I'm doing this with that in mind.
So, let me get this straight: You posted this request on a Discordian board, related it to BIP and TFYS, asked for a Discordian to help you out, but you don't want it to be Discordian.
Yeah...
You forgot - wants to invent the emo-tarot/qblh :|
I don't get it.
You mean, "All life is connected as One, and makes me want to cut myself"?
Quote from: Erin Gardien on April 21, 2009, 09:34:11 PM
I hate making new topics. I always feel like I'm going to piss someone off by stepping on their carefully arranged threads and end up with a pair of gardening shears jammed in my trachea, and maybe a spade in my face if the person in question was particularly fond of this patch of topics. But sometimes, risks must be taken, as when I find myself with a good idea and no one to help me with it.
I am not fond of the view that the BIP was too dark. Have you seen where you're living? The BIP was a shiny beam of hope through the black cloudy sky of bad shit followed by worse piss. Attempting to make the BIP more friendly is like attempting to make the PD more batshit bonkers -- it's pointlessly beating a horse that should have been ground to dust long ago, the only difference is in degrees. The world isn't all sunshine and lollipops, folks.
Rather than rant, I want to save my pent up rage and sarcasm for a completely new work. This is not a BIP revamp, in fact it's only tangentially related to that particular work. A short discussion with Cain led me to change my tune that it should be completely dark though. Rather, it should start quite nice, with lots of artificial lights, things that seem comfortingly true, then break the bulbs one by one to show the hideous spectre behind the shininess.
In my short discussion with Cain, I came to the conslusion that this would be best served by using the major arcana of the tarot as metaphors, and Silent Hill's dark/light dichotomy for inspiration on how to handle the reversals.
Problem is, I'm not happy. I can't possibly be happy with this fucked up shithole we live in. I can't SEE the lights everyone else does.
So I need one of you hippies to help me write this.
For the interested: You should expect to write either a full page or a half page for each and every one of the Arcana (one or the other for all of them), emphasizing the "good" qualities of each that discordians and other TFYS groups see. Even if you don't agree with those lights, write them as convincingly as possible. Obviously, I will accept only one person for this position depending on who I feel is most fit for it in terms of viewpoint -- that means cynical assholes may go elsewhere and gleefully await the final product.
For the argumentative: I am not doing this to cater to mooks who prefer to frolick with the fairies in the fields even as the excrement begins to hit the ventilator. My goal here is to present something that dispells illusions, encourages pessimism, and MAKES PEOPLE THINK. Luckily, I doubt this will be addressed to many people -- you lot all seem to encourage creativity, regardless of whether or not you agree with the intent.
Interested parties should have some form of IM client so I can discuss the idea with them while we're working on the thing. IRC works too. Not entirely necessary, but it'd be a big, big help.
Aaand I think that's all. Sorry if I came off as a cunt here, I'm channelling the pure distilled wrath of the gods and that comes with side effects.
--Erin D. Gardien
:emo:
Ok, I'm thinking something like :
ATU ZERO - THE FOOL.
Look at that asshole. Doesn't even know where he's going. Just another deluded fool, wandering over the edge, about to plunge into the abyss. Just like my parents, you know? I can't belive they voted for McCain. What fascists! They wouldn't even get me a second Ipod, so now I have to use the blue one. I know, right? I said, "why can't I have a black one? I need it to be black, to show people I'm an artist!"
Oh, and the card has a stupid fucking dog on it, too.
Quote from: LMNO on April 23, 2009, 02:17:23 PM
Ok, I'm thinking something like :
ATU ZERO - THE FOOL.
Look at that asshole. Doesn't even know where he's going. Just another deluded fool, wandering over the edge, about to plunge into the abyss. Just like my parents, you know? I can't belive they voted for McCain. What fascists! They wouldn't even get me a second Ipod, so now I have to use the blue one. I know, right? I said, "why can't I have a black one? I need it to be black, to show people I'm an artist!"
Oh, and the card has a stupid fucking dog on it, too.
:potd:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 23, 2009, 04:22:39 AM
Quote from: Cainad on April 23, 2009, 04:18:41 AM
Worst religion ever.
Hater.
I've been taught by the best.
Quote from: Erin Gardien on April 23, 2009, 03:44:00 AM
Sure, but that's not my goal. I'll just be straightforward: this isn't going to be Discordian. I don't like Discordianism. I like the sentiment behind it, and I'm doing this with that in mind.
There's something to Discordianism besides its underlying sentiment? :?
There are TWENTY-THREE things...
Why can't there be Thirty-Two things?
Quote from: LMNO on April 23, 2009, 03:24:03 PM
There are TWENTY-THREE things...
:x
Then I officially excommunicate myself.
Again.
For the fifth time.
ZANG!
The more of this thread that I read, the more confusing it seems to be.
Hail Eris.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 23, 2009, 02:46:00 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 23, 2009, 02:17:23 PM
Ok, I'm thinking something like :
ATU ZERO - THE FOOL.
Look at that asshole. Doesn't even know where he's going. Just another deluded fool, wandering over the edge, about to plunge into the abyss. Just like my parents, you know? I can't belive they voted for McCain. What fascists! They wouldn't even get me a second Ipod, so now I have to use the blue one. I know, right? I said, "why can't I have a black one? I need it to be black, to show people I'm an artist!"
Oh, and the card has a stupid fucking dog on it, too.
:potd:
This was sort of the direction Khara and I were taking to the "Speaking as a Mother" stuff before my brain blew up and we stopped writing.
I like this idea, ALOT, even if Erin G her/himself seems a bit anti on the Discordian front.
I think it's fair that this project be pretty far removed from the trappings of "traditional" Discordianism (whatever that means), especially if it's using the BIP as its primary inspiration. That alone makes it at least two steps separated from the PD.
Cainad,
Pretty much thinking out loud ITT for greater confusion
LMNO, it seems like you tried your damnedest to misinterpret what I'm aiming for, and thus turned this into the "let's make Erin look like an emo" thread. I would really appreciate it if you could at least give me a chance to fail at this before subjecting me to drive-by crucifixion. I'm aware that this is not exactly the friendliest forum on the internet, and that I'm relatively new to it, but you could try being helpful or just not participating in the discussion. I haven't insulted you yet (unless my comparison of this completely unfinished work to the BIP is insulting to the work you put into it, in which case just say so), and I actually respect you quite a bit. At least consider letting me try.
Cainad, there's a lot to Discordianism besides the sentiment: the jargon, the in-jokes, the silliness. I don't like those. I DO like the sentiment, I like the idea behind it, those parts are what brought me here. I'm probably the only one here who's like this, but whatever.
Jenne, not "anti-Discordianism" -- that's just sort of ridiculous to think. If I was anti-Discordianism, I'd be trolling my ass off despite lack of proper experience. As I said above: I just don't like the silliness. But thanks for the support, it was sort of nice to see that there, waiting at the end of the thread.
Also: for future reference: I do a godawful job of explaining myself, and I realize that's probably the source of most of the confusion. Maybe I should just work on it myself and show the finished product rather than waste my time with the explanations.
:mittens:
Erin lays it down straight ITT.
Oh, and Erin I can't find any contextual meaning in your use of "silliness", examples?
We actually have some forum jargon that helps clarify the issue. We differentiate Sense/Nonsense games from Pinealism (which to me is the propensity to misinterpret the 5th Commandment of the Pentabarf and take everything you hear through your pineal gland as either gospel truth or compulsion to babble).
You'll find Pinealism usually doesn't go over here well either.
Both pinealism and actual nonsense turn me off majorly. I like surrealism, but surrealism usually has a theme, even if the theme is non-obvious. It seems like much of the Principia is an exercise in writing colorful bullshit, and I just don't enjoy that sort of stuff. That'd be the silliness I meant.
Oh, hush. I was just teasing.
I had a feeling what you were against was the Pinealism, but I couldn't help doing the emo thing.
Anyway, I was honest when I suggested contacting Mangrove. He's got a good bit of Tarot/Kaballah knowlegde, and he's BIP-savvy, as well.
I'll help if you want, but I still have 20 chapters of the Chao te Ching to tackle.
Kabbalah isn't something I'm interesting in channelling here, though I think it would make a good followup. (Where did the Kabbalah thing come from anyway?) I'll definitely try contacting him, though.
As for you helping? Well, that's up to you. I'd appreciate your constructive criticism more than anything else, but I understand you're probably busy so any contribution you make is up to you.
And sorry about overreacting a bit to all of that. Forums and I tend not to get along -- little things like this sooner or later turn into flame fests. I suppose I'll get used to it.
Well, if it's any consolation, this forum starts as a flame fest, so there's no waiting.
Also, tarot matches very well with cabalistic ideas. an understanding of cabala helps with understanding tarot, and vice-versa.
Let me know if you get stuck anywhere, or need some help, and I'll see what I can do.
And most decks that are based on Crowley's have kabbalistic symbology encoded into them.
MMMMM symbols
well...I see that nearly 24 hours have gone by since I talked to EG in IRC and he/she has since posted in this thread without honoring my request for full disclosure, so...
This project, I am told, is intended to be published for (attempted) profit. Everyone needs to know that before they submit anything via this forum, and per the new forum rule, anything posted on this forum for subsequent for-profit publication MUST have the applicable IP license explicitly stated in the post.
also, I'm getting kinda pissed that I feel I have to keep badgering people about this. Thanks to everyone who decided to take a tentative idea and turn it into a dramatic shitfest the result of which is that I now feel the need to be uber-paranoid about protecting this forum as a legal entity (namely, myself and faust) from any potential legal embroilment. It really adds to the fun of being here, assholes.
oh, this forum is gonna be FUN for the next few months...
I don't think I posted anything of value in this thread, so from the first post to this one, I do not contest the use of my writings for another's profit, provided whatever of mine is used is attributed.
Quote from: Erin Gardien on April 23, 2009, 07:40:22 PM
Jenne, not "anti-Discordianism" -- that's just sort of ridiculous to think. If I was anti-Discordianism, I'd be trolling my ass off despite lack of proper experience. As I said above: I just don't like the silliness. But thanks for the support, it was sort of nice to see that there, waiting at the end of the thread.
Also: for future reference: I do a godawful job of explaining myself, and I realize that's probably the source of most of the confusion. Maybe I should just work on it myself and show the finished product rather than waste my time with the explanations.
Eh, I was using a sort of colloquial usage of "anti-" there...as in "not so into," not really the dictionary-textual reference, so I gotcha in one, really. I didn't know how to describe what I'd read on your views of Discordianism, so I failed at it miserably. But on the upswing, you got a chance to clarify, so hopefully it's all good.
And I support, of course, anything to do with Tarot, since I am quite a fan. :D
I'm probably a bad person for finding this funny right now...
ECH, since I only intended for one contributor, I meant to speak with them about it in PMs or on IRC when they said "Okay, sure, I'll definitely help." and avoid the crap that happened in the Selling Intermittens thread.
Guess that's out.
Yes, a friend of mine wanted to publish it. I thought this would be a not-very-big-problem for one major reason: they would have given a cut to all involved. But since the project was going to be between me and the other contributor and I never intended to see any of it in this thread until it was finished, I didn't see a reason to state it in the thread and stir up another shit-storm when I could just PM them all the details.
Sorry if I sound a bit pissed, but this kind of threw my plans for avoiding this shit through a concrete wall. I understand I didn't explain this to you in IRC, but I was unexpectedly called away before you responded and got back the moment you left.
I hope none of this damaged anyone's good will toward me.
Don't worry about it.
At the risk of sounding redundant, PM Mangrove. I really think he's your man.
I had intended to do so ASAP. Right now I'm finishing up some stuff so I have a quick reference.
Erin, I appreciate your position but someone would likely have just posted something they meant as an audition for your project in this thread and my position is that my position is more important.
Reverse Cowgirl?
"mommy- what's an Alaskan thunder monkey?"
Quote from: Cainad on April 23, 2009, 03:15:01 AM
Since tarot interpretations are so loose and generally up for grabs, it wouldn't be too hard to simply create a Discordian Major Arcana.
I've been working on something like this for a bit. It, for me, is all about getting the right imagry for the Major Arcana. There actually is a discordian tarot out there designed by [someone], but it's pretty basic, and looks like it was just the Hodge/Podge wingdings.
Personally, I could write about tarot all day. It's fun. you don't even need to know the meaning of the cards to sqeeze something out. however, i am out of hippy for awhile. Inflation. Free just went up by 5 dollars in taxes.
I've been working on my own set for close to three years. It's a LOT of work. Of course, I am the laziest person I know, but still... fasten your seatbelts.
There was a plan once to do a WOMP tarot, but a complete lack of get-go killed it off.
y'all should tell the Major Arcana to fuck off, and create a Discordian Tarot with only 10 cards.
Srsly.
The problem is a really like the Major Arcana.
Have you read Promethea yet???
Quote from: LMNO on April 24, 2009, 06:58:59 PM
y'all should tell the Major Arcana to fuck off
booms oranges prickles pungents sweets and trumps OR GTFO