Initially I only had the first sentence, but I kept rambling onward and felt like posting it.
Even gods have flaws. Every single mythology has recognized this, even the Christian Bible. But modern Christians will have none of it. I think that is the main thing that turns me off from Christians, as well as the thing that is the one major logical flaw in their thinking.
God must be flawed. Not only are there numerous contradictions in the Bible, etc., but I think the simplest reason is this: he created people in his image. If people are flawed, God must be flawed. Flaws cannot be traced to being given free will, because surely God has free will? Or, if he doesn't, he is being controlled by some other, more powerful force. Therefore, if God is the most powerful force in the universe we must assume he has free will.
If flaws were something new he created just for humans (that bastard), then where did the concept come from? In a perfect universe, with all this perfect shit, this perfect being God somehow thought to create something that wasn't perfect? How? Is it his omniscience? If so, it means that he is able to know not only all that is true, but all that is false and nonexistent - for in the universe before he created humans, flaws did not exist. Yet he knew them. God thus must know and imagine all that is false, nonexistant, or impossible. God thus knows and can imagine the impossible, which is contradictory in itself (Despite what you may believe, there is no way God is beyond logic; that is a weak and desperate answer). Surely a much simpler solution to this is: God is flawed.
If Christians accepted that God were flawed, the Bible and all of Christian philosophy would suddenly make so much more sense.
In fact, it would all make perfect sense.
- Epimetheus
RAAAAGH ATTRIBUTION NON-COMMERCIAL CREATIVE COMMONS GRRRR!
I always thought it made the most sense that the Christian god was just a local demon who tricked some schmucks into worshipping him. A burning bush that talks sound more like demon behavior that deity behavior.
Quote from: simonmoon333 on April 27, 2009, 03:57:17 AM
I always thought it made the most sense that the Christian god was just a local demon who tricked some schmucks into worshipping him. A burning bush that talks sound more like demon behavior that deity behavior.
True. In Christian mythology I find Satan's rebellion the most interesting - I think the clearest interpretation of God is that he is an insane fascist dictator with current numbers overwhelmingly on his side. Satan was basically a fighter in a failed Revolution.
IT'S A FUCKING FAIRY STORY - STOP TALKING ABOUT IT AS IF IT WERE REAL!!! :argh!:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 27, 2009, 12:43:20 PM
IT'S A FUCKING FAIRY STORY - STOP TALKING ABOUT IT AS IF IT WERE REAL!!! :argh!:
Needed to be in the right theoretical frame of reference. Plus, for this purpose it's easier to say "God" than something like "the deity that Christians and Jews claim is real but like, totally isn't".
Disclaimer: When I said "God" I meant the deity that Christians and Jews claim is real but like totally isn't.
If you want to talk about this crap go to a christian forum - they'll thank you for it.
Personally I come here to get away from primitive superstitions :argh!:
Pointing out how stupid the epitome of retardedness is is kinda redundant dontcha think?
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 27, 2009, 03:33:34 PM
If you want to talk about this crap go to a christian forum - they'll thank you for it.
Personally I come here to get away from primitive superstitions :argh!:
Pointing out how stupid the epitome of retardedness is is kinda redundant dontcha think?
No.
You might ask that about almost every rant in the Or Kill Me forum.
It's not redundant to call something stupid stupid. It's just speaking the Truth.
Theologians have debated the same thing as the OP for centuries. And it hasn't made much difference to the concept of faith at all, except to perhaps make people who don't want to believe one or the other side of the argument and create very complex justifications for what they believe.
It's not important, it's not central to anyone's faith in a tangible sense, and it distracts from some of the very real problems inherent in mass organised religion.
I don't care if a Christian or any other Abrahamic Religionist thinks their God is flawed or not, because ultimately THEY are flawed and it's them I have to deal with.
...
x
Quote from: Payne on April 27, 2009, 04:34:53 PM
I don't care if a Christian or any other Abrahamic Religionist thinks their God is flawed or not, because ultimately THEY are flawed and it's them I have to deal with.
Don't you think realizing one's god is flawed would make a religious person much less inclined to be absorbed in hubris? In other words, if the supreme creator being of the entire universe is imperfect, imperfection in people seems a much less atrocious or antagonistic thing. Surely tolerance rather than into-...fuck, I've suddenly lost conviction. Now I've ventured into defining right and wrong which I think is a strictly useless idea.
:sadbanana:
Epimetheus,
uh..........
Quote from: Epimetheus on April 27, 2009, 09:24:55 PM
Quote from: Payne on April 27, 2009, 04:34:53 PM
I don't care if a Christian or any other Abrahamic Religionist thinks their God is flawed or not, because ultimately THEY are flawed and it's them I have to deal with.
Don't you think realizing one's god is flawed would make a religious person much less inclined to be absorbed in hubris? In other words, if the supreme creator being of the entire universe is imperfect, imperfection in people seems a much less atrocious or antagonistic thing. Surely tolerance rather than into-...fuck, I've suddenly lost conviction. Now I've ventured into defining right and wrong which I think is a strictly useless idea.
:sadbanana:
Epimetheus,
uh..........
It doesn't work that way. It never does, in religion.
It's not about who or what God is. It's about how big your piety peen is. God could be a total asshole, but if you
Believed the fuck out of him, you'd be better than anyone else.
It also doesn't matter if God is flawed or not as long as He believes in you. He's still gonna be a mighty motherfucker and you want Him on your side.
I'm all for Hailing Satan and whatnot, but please use a blackened blade of unholy vengeance rather than preschool scissors.
:spag2:
Cancer won't fight cancer. Try again.
What?
Quote from: Payne on April 27, 2009, 11:50:06 PM
What?
Heh. Excuse my reductionist habits.
I feel that s/he is attempting to fix a case of fuzzy logic by using the same brand of fuzzy logic s/he was inculcated with, and presently bucking against.
Perhaps this is an unfair assessment.
Oh, right.
Yes possibly.
Quote from: chaoflux on April 27, 2009, 11:53:07 PM
Quote from: Payne on April 27, 2009, 11:50:06 PM
What?
I feel that s/he is attempting to fix a case of fuzzy logic by using the same brand of fuzzy logic s/he was inculcated with, and presently bucking against.
What's fuzzy about the logic I used?
Okay man, you asked for it. The line by line break down. Full power anal laser is activated.
>>Even gods have flaws.
'Even' gods. This statement on its own gives me enough to chew on. It makes me think that you are only now considering that you may have been lied to, but you still have residual respect/fear for deities and possibly other bogymen.
>>Every single mythology has recognized this, even the Christian Bible. But modern Christians will have none of it.
Just to help you out here, not all mythologies actually have to do with deities per se.
Also, in their view, it can never be God who is flawed, only man who cannot fully grasp the divine plan.
Of course we know that man has made his gods, and what man has made man can destroy. [My Satanic memes are leaking here.]
>>I think that is the main thing that turns me off from Christians, as well as the thing that is the one major logical flaw in their thinking.
The ONE major logical flaw? REALLY? Heh, you most likely misspoke, considering that you say:
>>God must be flawed. Not only are there numerous contradictions in the Bible, etc.,
The added irony here is that this creates contradictions in your own argument, technically.
>>but I think the simplest reason is this: he created people in his image. If people are flawed, God must be flawed.
Protip: God isn't real. [Obligatory: "there is only Eris and whoever she thinks is sexy. mwhahaha"]
You are relying on their equations meaning anything whatsoever to begin with. You still have faith. Like it or not.
You may want to get that looked at. >_>
>>Flaws cannot be traced to being given free will, because surely God has free will?
Their math. This is gibberish.
>>Or, if he doesn't, he is being controlled by some other, more powerful force.
Same.
>>Therefore, if God is the most powerful force in the universe we must assume he has free will.
Must we? If anything that has sentience is the most powerful force in the universe, do you think that we could comprehend what it is to be able to make choices outside the confines of Space and Time? Would free will even mean anything of value at that point?
>>If flaws were something new he created just for humans (that bastard), then where did the concept come from?
Diamonds also have flaws. So do white tigers, given the fact that they exist.
Anyways, are you saying that the concept of flaw in man would never have come about where it not for Abrahamic religions?
Dualism has been with humanity way before that, and way before Zoroaster hammered in the concept with 'good' and 'evil'.
This is another point at which I suspect your biggest theological source is just whatever Christian baggage you are working out. Which is fine, I'm just saying.
>>In a perfect universe, with all this perfect shit, this perfect being God somehow thought to create something that wasn't perfect? How? Is it his omniscience? If so, it means that he is able to know not only all that is true, but all that is false and nonexistent - for in the universe before he created humans, flaws did not exist. Yet he knew them. God thus must know and imagine all that is false, nonexistant, or impossible. God thus knows and can imagine the impossible, which is contradictory in itself (Despite what you may believe, there is no way God is beyond logic; that is a weak and desperate answer).
More gibberish. Still sticking with the same rubrics of the system you are trying to rail against. I know Christians may act like robots, but catching them in a logical paradox isn't going to make their heads explode, its going to make them say: Trust Jesus.
Man, "Despite what you may believe, there is no way God is beyond logic." Yeah. Er. Um. Yeah. God isn't real dude, despite what you may believe.
>>Surely a much simpler solution to this is: God is flawed.
The western understanding you have of myth and divinity is flawed.
>>If Christians accepted that God were flawed, the Bible and all of Christian philosophy would suddenly make so much more sense.
ANYWAYS. You are a Gnostic. This is basically what Gnosticism is. Its Christianity for goths who are post-ankh.
Have fun with your new religion that isn't Discordia.
tsk tsk
>>In fact, it would all make perfect sense.
INCORRECT.
Now to backtrack for a moment, please don't take my deconstruction personally, as I don't know you so I couldn't intend that.
I am someone who has a penchant for mythology, and I am not a total atheistic cunt, but I do respect that as the canvas which I poop my stupid ideas of archetypal entities talking to me onto. In fact, I think its great if you can believe in something improbable, just as long as it is an application, not the total operating system.
:lulz:
Okay. I asked for the fuzziness but didn't say I would refute it. More than anything else this is because I think it'd be pointless. In fact, I know that my OP was rather pointless, but anyway it was something in my mind that I wanted out and that I wanted others to comment on.
:| I'm not a Christian and as I said before I don't mean to imply that I think God is real just because I talk about him.
Heh sorry. Not Christian. :D
Quote from: chaoflux on April 28, 2009, 04:49:54 AM
Okay man, you asked for it. The line by line break down. Full power anal laser is activated.
>>Even gods have flaws.
'Even' gods. This statement on its own gives me enough to chew on. It makes me think that you are only now considering that you may have been lied to, but you still have residual respect/fear for deities and possibly other bogymen.
>>Every single mythology has recognized this, even the Christian Bible. But modern Christians will have none of it.
Just to help you out here, not all mythologies actually have to do with deities per se.
Also, in their view, it can never be God who is flawed, only man who cannot fully grasp the divine plan.
Of course we know that man has made his gods, and what man has made man can destroy. [My Satanic memes are leaking here.]
>>I think that is the main thing that turns me off from Christians, as well as the thing that is the one major logical flaw in their thinking.
The ONE major logical flaw? REALLY? Heh, you most likely misspoke, considering that you say:
>>God must be flawed. Not only are there numerous contradictions in the Bible, etc.,
The added irony here is that this creates contradictions in your own argument, technically.
>>but I think the simplest reason is this: he created people in his image. If people are flawed, God must be flawed.
Protip: God isn't real. [Obligatory: "there is only Eris and whoever she thinks is sexy. mwhahaha"]
You are relying on their equations meaning anything whatsoever to begin with. You still have faith. Like it or not.
You may want to get that looked at. >_>
>>Flaws cannot be traced to being given free will, because surely God has free will?
Their math. This is gibberish.
>>Or, if he doesn't, he is being controlled by some other, more powerful force.
Same.
>>Therefore, if God is the most powerful force in the universe we must assume he has free will.
Must we? If anything that has sentience is the most powerful force in the universe, do you think that we could comprehend what it is to be able to make choices outside the confines of Space and Time? Would free will even mean anything of value at that point?
>>If flaws were something new he created just for humans (that bastard), then where did the concept come from?
Diamonds also have flaws. So do white tigers, given the fact that they exist.
Anyways, are you saying that the concept of flaw in man would never have come about where it not for Abrahamic religions?
Dualism has been with humanity way before that, and way before Zoroaster hammered in the concept with 'good' and 'evil'.
This is another point at which I suspect your biggest theological source is just whatever Christian baggage you are working out. Which is fine, I'm just saying.
>>In a perfect universe, with all this perfect shit, this perfect being God somehow thought to create something that wasn't perfect? How? Is it his omniscience? If so, it means that he is able to know not only all that is true, but all that is false and nonexistent - for in the universe before he created humans, flaws did not exist. Yet he knew them. God thus must know and imagine all that is false, nonexistant, or impossible. God thus knows and can imagine the impossible, which is contradictory in itself (Despite what you may believe, there is no way God is beyond logic; that is a weak and desperate answer).
More gibberish. Still sticking with the same rubrics of the system you are trying to rail against. I know Christians may act like robots, but catching them in a logical paradox isn't going to make their heads explode, its going to make them say: Trust Jesus.
Man, "Despite what you may believe, there is no way God is beyond logic." Yeah. Er. Um. Yeah. God isn't real dude, despite what you may believe.
>>Surely a much simpler solution to this is: God is flawed.
The western understanding you have of myth and divinity is flawed.
>>If Christians accepted that God were flawed, the Bible and all of Christian philosophy would suddenly make so much more sense.
ANYWAYS. You are a Gnostic. This is basically what Gnosticism is. Its Christianity for goths who are post-ankh.
Have fun with your new religion that isn't Discordia.
tsk tsk
>>In fact, it would all make perfect sense.
INCORRECT.
Now to backtrack for a moment, please don't take my deconstruction personally, as I don't know you so I couldn't intend that.
I am someone who has a penchant for mythology, and I am not a total atheistic cunt, but I do respect that as the canvas which I poop my stupid ideas of archetypal entities talking to me onto. In fact, I think its great if you can believe in something improbable, just as long as it is an application, not the total operating system.
:lulz:
The force is strong in this noob :evil:
Chaoflux is older than the hills.
I heard Cramulus actually crawled out one of the recesses of Chaofluxes' bowels, and wasn't born to Mr. and Mrs. Ulus as he claims.
The hills could be 2 years old for all I know.
I'm not a motherfucking geologist! :argh!:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 28, 2009, 12:25:26 PM
The hills could be 2 years old for all I know.
I'm not a motherfucking geologist! :argh!:
Your face suggests otherwise old man.
I heard they had to send mountain rescue to retrieve some climbers from your rocky crags a few days back.
All they found were bones and a horrified last message written in their own faeces.
Those climbers were midgets.
Prolly how you heard the story in the first place.
It was a shock to the 'vertically challenged, challenging verticals' community.
:D thanks gents
Quote from: Epimetheus on April 27, 2009, 02:57:28 PMPlus, for this purpose it's easier to say "God" than something like "the deity that Christians and Jews claim is real but like, totally isn't".
Disclaimer: When I said "God" I meant the deity that Christians and Jews claim is real but like totally isn't.
but leaving out that bit is what makes it all confusing for you.
it's a fairy story--what do you care? unless you're talking to christians, which you aren't.
see what happens when we translate "God must be flawed because he created humans in his image, and humans are flawed":
when considering the story in which "the deity that christians claim is real but actually isn't" appears, in a logical manner, we must conclude that this fictional character is flawed, as the story tells that this fictional character has created the human race in its own image, and humans have flaws (both in reality and in the story).
see? It's kind of like discussing whether the Empire in Star Wars was actually evil or not--Nobody Really Cares.
oh and the logic is flawed too--if the deity created humans in his image, it means he created them like him, but not entirely, right? otherwise humans would be deities themselves, which in the story they aren't. so if he created them to be like him, except that they aren't deities and also flawed, it would still make sense (within the story), you'd have a non-flawed deity and flawed humans, presto! there are much bigger plot holes in the story, for that matter.
Yeah, I know, I get your point, but the fact that Christians make up the majority (in the world and in my country), and these are people that think this particular fictional story should run their lives and others' lives, makes it matter.
but trust me, i get your point.
Quote from: Epimetheus on April 28, 2009, 09:57:11 PM
Yeah, I know, I get your point, but the fact that Christians make up the majority (in the world and in my country), and these are people that think this particular fictional story should run their lives and others' lives, makes it matter.
but trust me, i get your point.
You can't change the facts. You can either get pissed off about it or laugh.
One of these routes leads to fundamentalist atheism (christianity minus the zombie faith healer) the other nothing worse than occasionally having to change your underwear.
Take it from me, I've tried both and the laughing route makes me a much happier person.
Yeah, through what I've said I've actually sort of contradicted myself, and besides right when I was writing it, I now feel the pointlessness of my post...
...and the pointlessness of life... :emo:
OH GOD, PEE DEE! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MEEEEE?!?!
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Holy goddamn shit! :mittens:
Quote from: Epimetheus on April 29, 2009, 12:41:58 AM
OH GOD, PEE DEE! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MEEEEE?!?!
Ah, you've made it to Level 2. One more level and you'll get the insurance plan.
Quote from: Nigel on April 29, 2009, 09:35:24 PM
Holy goddamn shit! :mittens:
agreed. also, i loved this sentence:
QuoteThanks to us, what was once a reality can become a dream.
It's just the right kind of melancholy :)
Quote from: Epimetheus on April 27, 2009, 01:41:45 AM
If flaws were something new he created just for humans (that bastard), then where did the concept come from? In a perfect universe, with all this perfect shit, this perfect being God somehow thought to create something that wasn't perfect?
Thbis reminds me of what G.Gordon Gordon has to say on page 139 of the Book of the SubGenius:
"Where indeed would JH*H-1 be without the human race to torment and pester? I put it to you that the old chisler would be pretty damn bored with it all if there was nothing more entertaining than Seraphims and Cherubims and namby-pamby flaming angels all sitting around up there on damp clouds and harping and trumpeting all-hours-a-bloody-day and you can bank on that..." :evil: