http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7294526473944146040&ei=hJThSayiFcqK-QaQwpGUCQ&q=Documentaries&hl=en&dur=3&st=day&client=firefox-a
an HBO documentary about right americans feelings during the election...
probably older and dont know how long the link will be up
its actually directed by Nancy Pelosi's daughter who does a fairly decent job
.
obviously the ignorance and proud ignorance is neat
but what amazes me the disconnect between people. Theres this scene early on where a campaigner knows her neighbors are lesbians who put a barrack obama sign in their lawn and the campaigner is actually scared of getting into a fight with them... like actually scared... or when the same person later goes and tries to convince black voters to vote mccain... or the one american who thinks there will be a war in Europe if barrack obama is president... and more then that...
if I ever go to the states I wanna talk to these people... they're so fascinating
awful self righteous fucks.
these people are fascinating, sure. but when they are fucking EVERYWHERE, they get tiresome awfully quickly.
I've seen this. It's...a little gruesome, actually, the level of hate that's still around the US. Ugh. Got such a nasty feeling while watching this.
I watched a bit of this before leaving for work today. Very interesting stuff! have reposted elsewhere
I grew up around these people.
Those who say "it's just the way we are, the way we were raised", that's bullshit.
I didn't turn out that way at all.
Those people are the ones to be afraid of. Not Obama, not getting in a fight with lesbians, those people.
They're the type that burn down houses and drag people behind their truck. Pick on the black kids for being black. Beat up the black guy that gets hired over the white guy and yells about inequality.
Many here have changed over the last couple of years, but it surely isn't a giant leap of progress. My ex-father-in-law (it pains me to even call him that) has such a big problem with black people that he makes comments at interracial couples, still throws around the "N" word like it's o.k. and won't watch a movie if there's a black president or black man in charge of anything.
For that and many other reasons I won't get into, my son doesn't go over to that house. And his father agrees with me. "Why make the kid suffer?" you ask? He doesn't miss him.
And we'll leave it at that.
Not all rednecks are bad people though. I find Ted Nugent fascinating. It's just the majority that think this way that bother me. I don't like it and I don't want my son growing up thinking that it's o.k. to think you're superior to someone else because of skin color.
What was it, that the right was crowing about back in 2004?
Oh right, it was "you lost, hippie" and "get over it".
You lost wingnuts, get over it.
Quote from: Cain on June 30, 2009, 05:24:47 PM
What was it, that the right was crowing about back in 2004?
Oh right, it was "you lost, hippie" and "get over it".
You lost wingnuts, get over it.
Easier said than done. We are talking about a group of people whose worldview can basically be broken down to "Change is very very bad." When there is too many change too quickly something breaks in their head. They get scared. Some of them get violent in hopes of turning back the clock. These people scare the fuck out of me.
My favorite are the religious whackjobs that 4 years ago where yelling at me holding signs saying that "god wanted bush to win".
Now they're praying in tongues "may god strike obama dead".
It's funny how things work out.
@ Squid
what I'm fascinated by is the level of honesty, and the fact it's so blatant and people willing to talk about their irrational fears on camera.
Up here in the North we have the same ideas, in fact it might be actually MORE inbred, but the fear is directed towards different groups. English vs French, Northern Ontario vs Southern Ontario, Everyone vs Natives, Straights vs Gays, 2nd Generation of Northerners vs new Immigrants, ect... And because we don't have as much as national identity as Americans old world prejudices remain even up to 3rd or 4th generations.
The thing is there is this almost unspoken rule that this remains private, and you don't talk about it publicly, especially if the cameras are rolling. It sort of remains in private conversations, and for some reason coffee shops. I could just sit back at Tim Hortons and get bombarded by it. And if pushed on people deny what they just said, and even deny it when they act on it... such as the rash of gay bashings that remember in high school.
That's what I find neat. Up here everything is more dishonest and harder to gage. And to me, at least, this makes it even uglier.
Quote from: Iason Gayle on June 30, 2009, 05:46:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 30, 2009, 05:24:47 PM
What was it, that the right was crowing about back in 2004?
Oh right, it was "you lost, hippie" and "get over it".
You lost wingnuts, get over it.
Easier said than done. We are talking about a group of people whose worldview can basically be broken down to "Change is very very bad." When there is too many change too quickly something breaks in their head. They get scared. Some of them get violent in hopes of turning back the clock. These people scare the fuck out of me.
Your words are exactly my thoughts as I watched that. It was like some horror film.
:x I work with people like this...actually got into an argument with my bosses husband (when his WIFE--my boss--was asking me about my boyfriend...not politics). Apparently now I have debate street cred with the office ladies, because I wouldn't take his shit when he shoved his crap down my throat and told me that I can have my own views but not to act on them because they affect his family. :|
So, so much horrormirth. And I'm also kind of amused that the guy with the flag on his truck is disrespecting the flag. You're not supposed to let the end get frayed like that.
I live with people like this. My parents aren't really the flag waving type, or so extreme/extra extra crazy, really, but most of this was and is their views. They claim to be kidding when they talk about baseball bats and homosexuals, and the evils of all middle easterners, but they're really not. I have Middle Eastern friends and my parents were initially displeased, especially about my Persian friend.
Also, I love that these people are the same demographic as my customers who buy Grand Theft Auto. And can I shoot the guy around 29:00 and then everybody after that except the guy around 38:00? They has the dumb and they has it bad.
Ugh, Roger is right - America deserves everything it gets.
finished watching this last night.
wow.
it's pretty interesting in that it shows some really moronic people saying moronic things. I hope hope hope hope hope those people don't represent the average midwesterner :-P
I mean the videographer is Nancy Pelosi's daughter, so there's definitely an agenda. I think Alex Pelosi is furthering the gap between the "two americas". I watched some interviews with her on Rachel Maddow and Hannity, and it does sound like she's trying to somehow heal the rift -- but she's really just reenforcing it. I mean, I haven't felt so alienated from the midwest since... errr.... well the last 4 years of the bush administration made me feel pretty alienated.
she does a good job of showing that part of America really isn't ready for what Barack was cookin'
it also shows how much damage fox news is doing to public discourse
these people are really buying into the retarded talking points - like there are people who were really shaken by the fact that obama took off his american flag lapel pin one time. That's like a primary issue for some people.
Quote from: Cramulus on July 01, 2009, 03:52:23 PM
finished watching this last night.
wow.
it's pretty interesting in that it shows some really moronic people saying moronic things. I hope hope hope hope hope those people don't represent the average midwesterner :-P
I mean the videographer is Nancy Pelosi's daughter, so there's definitely an agenda. I think Alex Pelosi is furthering the gap between the "two americas". I watched some interviews with her on Rachel Maddow and Hannity, and it does sound like she's trying to somehow heal the rift -- but she's really just reenforcing it. I mean, I haven't felt so alienated from the midwest since... errr.... well the last 4 years of the bush administration made me feel pretty alienated.
she does a good job of showing that part of America really isn't ready for what Barack was cookin'
it also shows how much damage fox news is doing to public discourse
these people are really buying into the retarded talking points - like there are people who were really shaken by the fact that obama took off his american flag lapel pin one time. That's like a primary issue for some people.
From where I am in the Midwest, it appears that about 35% of the population acts like this. The rest of us try to ignore them. I have friends that are Republicans, some hard core and voted for Bush and McCain, but even they think these people are nuts. One of my friends came back from a Bush rally in 2000 and she was upset that people were saying things like "Speak O man of God!" she is very religious and very Republican and very sure that something has gone horribly wrong in the minds of many of her fellow GOP. I can say the same for at least 8 other GOPers I know.
Rata, you described my mom to a T. My dad's less of a Bible Thumper, but damn he can put it on when it suits.
Strangely enough, they grew up in So Cal. But my mom's Southern roots go down deep. Even stranger, her folks are Dixiecrats and Reagan Republicans. So they have a more rounded-out view of politics at times...less mouth-frothing than Rush Limbaugh and Michael Medved(sp?) seems to evoke in their listeners.
35% seems a low average to me, personally. But then I also have relatives who are hardcore Clintonites who also campaigned for him in Paducah, KY. I think you have both sets on the wheel at all times, it's the moderates with no show-voice who are drowned out by the echoes of the insane on the Right and in the insane on the Left.
The moderates have almost all jumped ship.
And to be honest, I wouldn't blame them, since the religious right, the wartards, torture enthusiasts et al are the biggest bunch of fucking crybabies in existence. As this video shows. Oh, save me from teh muslims, teh socialists, teh gheys, teh atheists, etc etc How do people live in such abject fear of imaginary enemies?
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2009, 04:15:28 PM
The moderates have almost all jumped ship.
And to be honest, I wouldn't blame them, since the religious right, the wartards, torture enthusiasts et al are the biggest bunch of fucking crybabies in existence. As this video shows. Oh, save me from teh muslims, teh socialists, teh gheys, teh atheists, etc etc How do people live in such abject fear of imaginary enemies?
Its the only way to keep them in line, Cain... you know that ;-)
I'd like to blame it on the media, which is certainly fanning the "two americas" flames.
But I think this is the inevitable outcome of any two party system.
If we were making a choice about whether to eat mushroom or pepperoni pizza every 4 years for three centuries, the pepperoni eaters would think the mushroom eaters were total hillbillies. What they're making a choice about is almost arbitrary. In a two party system it's "us" and "them". Then there are layers and layers of branding and identity politics. Then nobody recognizes each other anymore.
Well, except it's not that arbitrary according to the history of both movements. There's a lovely agenda on both sides that's been worked over by the powers-that-be. Manipulating small government politics to shape the larger government issues. So the truth to the rumor and innuendo is always there, lurking in the shadows.
Plus, someone SAYING they believe these things makes it true to them, no matter how much education and response they get to the contrary. That's the truly scary thing about it, really. What scares me, anyway.
Quote from: Cramulus on July 01, 2009, 04:37:33 PM
I'd like to blame it on the media, which is certainly fanning the "two americas" flames.
But I think this is the inevitable outcome of any two party system.
If we were making a choice about whether to eat mushroom or pepperoni pizza every 4 years for three centuries, the pepperoni eaters would think the mushroom eaters were total hillbillies. What they're making a choice about is almost arbitrary. In a two party system it's "us" and "them". Then there are layers and layers of branding and identity politics. Then nobody recognizes each other anymore.
Britain is a two-party system though, and its not this bad here. Nowhere near.
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2009, 04:15:28 PM
How do people live in such abject fear of imaginary enemies?
Conditioning, via two fronts. First, their world-view is reinforced as being divinely ordained (and is the only "authorized" way to avoid the fear) through religious and social structures (isolation from other opinions being the prime factor in bulwarking this reinforcement), and second being conditioned that anything that doesn't comply with or support that reinforced world-view is de facto directly threatening that world-view (via internet/radio/social contacts using fear as the primary rallying point).
It doesn't matter if the individuals are actually threatened or not - they've been conditioned to fear that which they are told to fear, and look for solutions to that fear solely from those avenues that tell them what to fear, and to ignore (even in the face of blatant hypocrisies) any position, opinion or evidence that disagrees with what they are told they should fear. It's a feedback loop and concentrates a LOT of power into the leaders from their constituents.
This shift to using peoples' fear as a tool of political control came to the fore in the 60s with the race riots. The GOP switched from a fiscally conservative force to a socially conservative force (see Nixon and Reagan) and showed just how effective the use of social issues was to rally the base around non-social agendas, and in the subsequent years the techniques to reinforce this system have only been improved (see Karl Rove, Limbaugh and Cheney). The Dems vacilate between following the GOP's lead (which never works as they don't have the solid core of religious right to reliably follow the party line homogenously - the Dem base is too ideologically varied to lock-step in sufficient numbers like the GOP can motivate the hard-right) and ignoring it (which only tends to work in times of economic stress when social issues take a back seat to economic ones in the national climate).
Cram's mention of the two-party system as escalating factor is definitely true - the worst situation historically for either GOP or Dems has been viable 3rd-party candidates such as Wallace or Perot, as it undermines the ability of either side's ideologues to dominate the public debate by introducing options outside the control of the feedback loops put in place to reinforce the "us vs. them" atmosphere most conducive to control by either the GOP or Dems.
QuoteBritain is a two-party system though, and its not this bad here. Nowhere near.
True to an extent - while the UK has two dominant parties, the other parties are at least seen as potentially viable - as horrible as, say, the BNP is, they're treated as a legitemate faction in the UK - in the US they'd be (and already really are) subsumed in the GOP and not be allowed to exist outside of the GOP infrastructure and control systems. The two-party system has been taken to an extreme in the US compared to any other country I can think of, mostly for the purposes of maintaining power in the hands of the two parties.
For example, look at the Green party in the US in 2000. Nader was used as a scapegoat by BOTH parties as to why Gore lost Florida, conveniently avoiding all of the ballot mess and other legal and social factors that gave the state (and the election) to Bush. Even the remote specter of a 3rd party altering the outcome away from either the GOP or Dems was enough to make both parties offer the Green party as a political scapegoat to the underlying causes, since the potential of a strong 3rd party causes too many problems for both the GOP and the Dems.
I think its a identity issue overall. I really dig RAW's model of psychology where humans are tribal in nature. That our tribes are called 'Dem' and "GOP' instead of Ichiguwanla Tribe and Tribe of the Moon Lake makes little difference. Our society has no cohesive set of rituals, no inclusive part of 'joining the tribe'. Indeed, the main purpose of the tribe (bio-survival according to Bob), has been replaced by bio-survival tickets, aka money.
In some countries, perhaps there is a history or a identity that still draws people together... here in the US, we're a nation of tribes that came from all over... and no one bothered to come up with a way for them to all identify together. So instead of identifying first as part of the American Tribe, they identify as the Dem or GOP or Libertarian or Catholic or Atheist etc first and (as shown in the video) THINK that is the American Tribe and everything else is horse shit.
I just watched this. Now I want to go cry.
Quote from: Corvidia on July 01, 2009, 07:30:45 AM
So, so much horrormirth. And I'm also kind of amused that the guy with the flag on his truck is disrespecting the flag. You're not supposed to let the end get frayed like that.
I live with people like this. My parents aren't really the flag waving type, or so extreme/extra extra crazy, really, but most of this was and is their views. They claim to be kidding when they talk about baseball bats and homosexuals, and the evils of all middle easterners, but they're really not. I have Middle Eastern friends and my parents were initially displeased, especially about my Persian friend.
Also, I love that these people are the same demographic as my customers who buy Grand Theft Auto. And can I shoot the guy around 29:00 and then everybody after that except the guy around 38:00? They has the dumb and they has it bad.
Ugh, Roger is right - America deserves everything it gets.
And nobody ever listens.