http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_bumping
just saw on the evening news :lulz:
technique is a few years old but yeah, it works very well on a lot of locks.
We have one at work. In the safe, to which I have easy access. Hmm...
the previous most common way was the three sticks which often left the lock loose afterwords
i wonder if this damages the lock in anyway
poll: really real news or fearmongering
I hope the Liberals don't get the webbernet in their tennement buildings. WE DON'T NEED TO TEACH THEM ANYTHING NEW.
Quote from: noise maker on July 08, 2009, 09:47:20 PM
the previous most common way was the three sticks which often left the lock loose afterwords
i wonder if this damages the lock in anyway
poll: really real news or fearmongering
as far as I know, it leaves some minor scratches. you can tell if you opened a lock some 10s of times, and perhaps some proper CSI stuff with a microscope might be able to tell after one time.
but in general, apart from applying a bit more force than usual with normal opening, it doesnt leave any real marks to speak of.
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 08, 2009, 09:55:11 PM
but in general, apart from applying a bit more force than usual with normal opening, it doesnt leave any real marks to speak of.
nice time to bust out the wireless cameras then
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 08, 2009, 09:55:11 PM
Quote from: noise maker on July 08, 2009, 09:47:20 PM
the previous most common way was the three sticks which often left the lock loose afterwords
i wonder if this damages the lock in anyway
poll: really real news or fearmongering
as far as I know, it leaves some minor scratches. you can tell if you opened a lock some 10s of times, and perhaps some proper CSI stuff with a microscope might be able to tell after one time.
but in general, apart from applying a bit more force than usual with normal opening, it doesnt leave any real marks to speak of.
How is this any more scary than an electronic lock-picker though? Those have been around for years.
The only thing that makes this scary is that it's cheap for a common thief to acquire without raising flags if they know someone who works at Home Depot, but then I don't think they'll CARE if they mark up your lock.
its why they arent really worried about RFID identify thiefs, you know those payswipe visa cards,
cause the scanners arent common
I'm not especially worried by this. I figure by the time I'm in possession of my own house, lock makers will have all made bump proof locks. (a number already are, either intentionally or as a side effect of other security measures. But they're more expensive, so nobody who isn't paranoid owns one.) And while opening a lock with a bump key is frightfully easy, making a bump key in the first place is a little trickier - you pretty much need a key-cutting machine.
That, and the locks at my dorms have a tendency to already be openable by other keys in the first place, and living in a shared dorm/apartment complex means that the front door, while locked, will be opened by any of a hundred other students to let any arbitrary person in.
I'm of the opinion that most door-type locks are essentially social fictions. An inch-long plug of metal jammed into a wooden door frame isn't gonna keep someone out who really wants to get in.
Schlage locks are bump-proof already, and have been for years and years. They're not that expensive.
The whole lock-bumping scare is old news.
Kwikset locks can be bumped pretty easily.
The reason lock-bumping is alarming is that it allows a skilled burglar to get into your house without arousing suspicion. Breaking a window, taking a Saws-all to the walls, or battering in the door will almost certainly result in a call to the police from neighbors.
Quote from: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 04:27:07 PM
I'm of the opinion that most door-type locks are essentially social fictions. An inch-long plug of metal jammed into a wooden door frame isn't gonna keep someone out who really wants to get in.
Correct Motorcycle!
Lock bumping has been around for decades....
Nigel, schlage locks are not 'bump-proof' they are simply 'bump-resistant' and ward off less skilled thieves (who will probably be entering from a window anyways, right?)
Hell, even the Medeco locks that protect our govt. secrets and cost a fortune have now been proven to be 'bumpable'
http://www.podtech.net/home/3773/defcon-2007-bumping-the-medico-lock
Quote from: GA on July 09, 2009, 04:22:26 PMI'm not especially worried by this. I figure by the time I'm in possession of my own house, lock makers will have all made bump proof locks. (a number already are, either intentionally or as a side effect of other security measures. But they're more expensive, so nobody who isn't paranoid owns one.)
I will look this up about the locks for my new appt. Amsterdam-based lockpicking club "Toool" developed the bumpkey technique (afaik, or at least researched it in its early days), I suppose they might have a list of vulnerable/non-vulnerable locks on their site.
QuoteAnd while opening a lock with a bump key is frightfully easy, making a bump key in the first place is a little trickier - you pretty much need a key-cutting machine.
um, I'm not much of a DIYer myself, and therefore don't own any real powertools, but a bumpkey doesnt require a very specific shape, so I would suppose you could do it with an angle grinder* just as well.
Quoteand living in a shared dorm/apartment complex means that the front door, while locked, will be opened by any of a hundred other students to let any arbitrary person in.
ah I know the type, we have student flats just like that. you can sneak in without any problem (as long as you dont look like a homeless junkie). i suppose you have separate doors for the corridors and the rooms, right?
oh, and what Nigel said. doors with locks are not entirely a social fiction, they do have a good use and that is, delaying intruders and/or causing them to have to create enough noise to get in. also, of course, they stop opportunity criminals. if you leave your door open with your laptop in plain sight, some asshole with sticky fingers will happen to come along and steal it. if the door's locked, your average asshole doesn't carry the tools to break in all the time, neither do they go around opening random doors to see if there's laptops behind them.
I am entirely aware that someone who really wants to get in, can get in, but that doesnt make doorlocks useless for safety.
Quote from: Iptuous on July 09, 2009, 05:19:27 PMLock bumping has been around for decades....
Nearly a decade. And only got widespread attention since 4 or 5 years.
(unless you count the Danish locksmiths in the 70s that, according to wikipedia, used a similar trick for disassembling locks, not opening/"breaking" them as a security issue)
Most of the break ins I've heard of lately have been hit and run for high priced, obvious items. Bump keys seem sophisticated compared to the local gang smashing a window and running off with your Xbox.
LMNO had the right idea. Shim the sucker. In the words of my father, locks only keep honest people out.
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 09, 2009, 05:26:49 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on July 09, 2009, 05:19:27 PMLock bumping has been around for decades....
Nearly a decade. And only got widespread attention since 4 or 5 years.
(unless you count the Danish locksmiths in the 70s that, according to wikipedia, used a similar trick for disassembling locks, not opening/"breaking" them as a security issue)
1928:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=Mhx5AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4
Fuck that, 333 BC, bitches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot).
okay, so we have our ID's or IDEAS that can be stolen...
Or, we can go fully open source...
there must be a middle ground?
Quote from: Rev. Stanley Baldwin on July 09, 2009, 07:39:35 PM
okay, so we have our ID's or IDEAS that can be stolen...
Or, we can go fully open source...
there must be a middle ground?
What the FUCK are you jabbering about?
i concur with your earlier diagnosis of hebephrenia, that guy just ain't right in the head.
grow-up
Here's a good security analysis (I think, I don't do security analysis so I'm not really suited to judge it):
http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/videos/lockdown/bumping_040206.pdf
Quote from: The above article, p. 19
Hand-cut keys
Each cut must be individually filed to its deepest value. In some locks, the cuts
may in fact be made slightly greater than the deepest code value, but depending
upon the keyway and specific lock design, this may not be true.
Although this procedure appears deceptively simple, that is not exactly true. A
certain amount of knowledge of the specific lock may be required in order to
know the depth of the deepest cut. Different manufacturers have different depth
and spacing specifications and they are by no means uniform. Thus, the
operative must know how far to file the key for each bitting position. It may not be
possible to ascertain this information from just a visual inspection of the key that
is being modified and certainly the information is not evident from a blank key.
Cuts must be correctly formed and properly centered for each chamber. The
ramps of each tumbler position must be uniform and parallel to each other,
although a slight variance may be self-compensating as the key may actually
deform the bitting surface as it slams against the pins. The peaks for each cut
must be sufficient to properly make contact with the base of each pin and provide
enough material to "bounce" it. If the cuts are too low and the peaks not formed
properly, then the key will not properly interact with the tumblers and the lock will
not open. If dimple keys or keys requiring special milling are utilized, then they
may be difficult or impossible to cut by hand.
Note also that you have to have the same kind of key that the target lock takes - you can't just make one bump key and be able to open every tumbler lock ever. But since things like apartment complexes, group mailboxes, single-construction company neighborhoods, etc, typically use only one model of lock...
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 09, 2009, 05:26:49 PM
oh, and what Nigel said. doors with locks are not entirely a social fiction, they do have a good use and that is, delaying intruders and/or causing them to have to create enough noise to get in. also, of course, they stop opportunity criminals. if you leave your door open with your laptop in plain sight, some asshole with sticky fingers will happen to come along and steal it. if the door's locked, your average asshole doesn't carry the tools to break in all the time, neither do they go around opening random doors to see if there's laptops behind them.
I am entirely aware that someone who really wants to get in, can get in, but that doesnt make doorlocks useless for safety.
In general, it's much easier and quieter to just look for a door that someone left ajar than to break through a lock. Being impenetrable is very hard and expensive, but being merely more secure than your neighbors is almost as effective.
Quote from: Iptuous on July 09, 2009, 05:19:27 PM
Lock bumping has been around for decades....
Nigel, schlage locks are not 'bump-proof' they are simply 'bump-resistant' and ward off less skilled thieves (who will probably be entering from a window anyways, right?)
Hell, even the Medeco locks that protect our govt. secrets and cost a fortune have now been proven to be 'bumpable'
http://www.podtech.net/home/3773/defcon-2007-bumping-the-medico-lock
Bump-proof is technically impossible in a cylinder lock, but bump-proof in practical application? Yes, they are. They can technically be bumped, but in a domestic application it is so profoundly unlikely that someone would have the motivation, the skill and the bump key to do it that it's pretty much flat retarded to contemplate it.
(http://www.inventgeek.com/projects/lockpick/Images/12.jpg)
This works better.
source: http://www.inventgeek.com/projects/lockpick/page4.aspx
Padlocks and door locks are different.