I've been reading Six Legged Soldiers recently, a book about the history and use of insects in warfare, either in of themselves or as a vector for diseases. Let me tell you, there is a LONG history, going way way back. Bee hive and scorpion (yes, not insects, still considered under entomology) bombing, torture via insects (most notably at Bukhara), and the initial cause of the bubonic plague spread through Europe (you can thank Batu Khan's siege of Kaffa for that). More recently, vector insects were used extensively in China during WWII, under the command of the Japanese mad scientist Shiro Ishii. I haven't even mentioned crop pests yet.
As for now, the author mentions that he would be dissapointed if any master's student of entomology couldn't devise any of the techniques in this book. This shows the real potential for entomological warfare today; many vectors are quite easy to cultivate in laboratory, and it wouldn't require many to invoke terror into a population. Imagine some Ageis aegypti with west nile virus being set loose in a subway station in NYC, and how much terror that would provoke. Or, even worse, imagine simultaneous releases of west nile mosquitoes in small communities throughout the US. This would remove all thought of "it can't happen to me, I live in podunk, nowhere".
I'm honestly surprised Al Quaeda hasn't exploited any entomological warfare as of yet; release of a plague into your home town is far scarier than a bomb going off in some city a thousand miles away.
Kai, if you hear a knock on your door, don't answer it.
Sjaantze and I have been discussing the possibilities for some time... though rather than disease we were thinking more along the lines of corporate warfare. A film canister containing grain moths, dropped inconspicuously in all of the PetSmart stores in one city... Result - Huge monetary losses.
Canister of Fruit flies released in an alcohol serving establishment - Result - Lots of lost liquor and cost... and pissed off customers.
Insects could be a terrible way to wage a guerrilla war on any given business.
Shiro Ishii is still claiming victims in China apparently :argh!:
I still can't believe we let the fucker go free.
Quote from: Ratatosk on August 12, 2009, 06:37:07 PM
Sjaantze and I have been discussing the possibilities for some time... though rather than disease we were thinking more along the lines of corporate warfare. A film canister containing grain moths, dropped inconspicuously in all of the PetSmart stores in one city... Result - Huge monetary losses.
Canister of Fruit flies released in an alcohol serving establishment - Result - Lots of lost liquor and cost... and pissed off customers.
Insects could be a terrible way to wage a guerrilla war on any given business.
Yike, the fruitflies one sounds like it would be extremely effective--and pretty fucking easy to pull off as well, collecting fruitflies aint exactly hard :)
Cain might be able to answer why biowarfare in the form of insects hasn't been used by terrorists by now...but I would venture to say that it's just too stealth for them. And not so very boomtastic as bombs and planes crashing. Nonsexy in the terrorist world, so to speak, for lack of fanfare.
I think it would be more of a domestic terrorist plot, imho, like the nice white powder we saw so prevalent in '02.
Quote from: LMNO on August 12, 2009, 06:36:47 PM
Kai, if you hear a knock on your door, don't answer it.
Like I said, I'm not saying anything no one has said before. JA Lockwood wrote a whole damn book about this stuff and discussed everything I said above. All of these tactics have been in use since the second world war, if not longer, and any person with a degree in entomology could come up with them. If the men in black come for me, it proves the government is composed of idiots, and I'm very doubtful of this. In fact, I think that Obama is Machivellian enough to have people working on addressing issues of biological warefare of all kinds. And the thing about biological warefare is, public awareness helps. If the public is aware of the possibility, they'll take the steps needed to keep it from happening. For example, being aware of things like ticks and lice and fleas, and wearing insect repellent when necessary, and going to the hospital when they feel sick. Good medical awareness keeps plagues from happening in the US now. The rats haven't dissapeared, but we have cleaner habitations and lifestyles.
The only reason stuff like this is possible is that the public has become apathetic, naive and ignorant, whereas just a few generations ago these issues were everywhere, and everyone was aware of them. and if the government IS reading this, they'll heed this message: public awareness and health standards are more important than anything else you could be doing; Read Six Legged Soldiers, if you haven't, understand the issues at hand and take action on those possibilities if you haven't already. And leave a poor chap doing a good job alone, I'm just another freedom loving American who wants people to be safe.
Quote from: Ratatosk on August 12, 2009, 06:37:07 PM
Sjaantze and I have been discussing the possibilities for some time... though rather than disease we were thinking more along the lines of corporate warfare. A film canister containing grain moths, dropped inconspicuously in all of the PetSmart stores in one city... Result - Huge monetary losses.
Canister of Fruit flies released in an alcohol serving establishment - Result - Lots of lost liquor and cost... and pissed off customers.
Insects could be a terrible way to wage a guerrilla war on any given business.
Yep. Widescale economic/crop pest warefare was talked about by all sides during WWII but never really took off. Incidentally, was the Colorado Potato Beetle most cited as a likely candidate.
These days I'd go with the medflly for most likely. The devastation on orchards fruits would be terrifying.
Sounds like another "education is the key" sort of track. It's an excellent question-and-suggestion, Kai. I know I've discussed it with my husband (who has to go on TV and answer Q's locally about West Nile, etc.) before.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 12, 2009, 06:39:42 PM
Shiro Ishii is still claiming victims in China apparently :argh!:
I still can't believe we let the fucker go free.
Really? I know we let him go free and he died of old age, but I didn't know that the damage he wrought was still ongoing.
Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:55:45 PM
Sounds like another "education is the key" sort of track. It's an excellent question-and-suggestion, Kai. I know I've discussed it with my husband (who has to go on TV and answer Q's locally about West Nile, etc.) before.
I guess the most terrifying thought is people being ignorant about it. Things like brute physical warfare may happen to an educated populous, but not entomological warefare, which is largely psychological in nature. The biggest result of the anthrax letters is the panic it caused.
Quote from: Kai on August 12, 2009, 06:59:17 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:55:45 PM
Sounds like another "education is the key" sort of track. It's an excellent question-and-suggestion, Kai. I know I've discussed it with my husband (who has to go on TV and answer Q's locally about West Nile, etc.) before.
I guess the most terrifying thought is people being ignorant about it. Things like brute physical warfare may happen to an educated populous, but not entomological warefare, which is largely psychological in nature. The biggest result of the anthrax letters is the panic it caused.
Which seems the upshot of most terrorism--the power you can have over a large amount of the public, its emotions and its actions.
Very scary.
Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:51:36 PM
Cain might be able to answer why biowarfare in the form of insects hasn't been used by terrorists by now...but I would venture to say that it's just too stealth for them. And not so very boomtastic as bombs and planes crashing. Nonsexy in the terrorist world, so to speak, for lack of fanfare.
I think it would be more of a domestic terrorist plot, imho, like the nice white powder we saw so prevalent in '02.
Very nonsexy but very good at scaring people. So many people are afraid of bugs in the first place. I do remember reading a book about why certain methods weren't used by terrorists (like dirty bombs, or nukes), and it was along the lines you already said. Whats the point of using expensive, difficult to obtain and handle methods when good old gasoline will do the job? I mean, WTC didn't collapse due to the plane impact, those were strong buildings, but rather from the intense fire from the jet fuel.
Quote from: Kai on August 12, 2009, 07:05:11 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:51:36 PM
Cain might be able to answer why biowarfare in the form of insects hasn't been used by terrorists by now...but I would venture to say that it's just too stealth for them. And not so very boomtastic as bombs and planes crashing. Nonsexy in the terrorist world, so to speak, for lack of fanfare.
I think it would be more of a domestic terrorist plot, imho, like the nice white powder we saw so prevalent in '02.
Very nonsexy but very good at scaring people. So many people are afraid of bugs in the first place. I do remember reading a book about why certain methods weren't used by terrorists (like dirty bombs, or nukes), and it was along the lines you already said. Whats the point of using expensive, difficult to obtain and handle methods when good old gasoline will do the job? I mean, WTC didn't collapse due to the plane impact, those were strong buildings, but rather from the intense fire from the jet fuel.
Yeah, the Joker in that Dark Knight movie said the same thing about gasoline. It's an excellent point.
Psychological warfare on a people is such an intense game...but I think the pesonality part of the perp is what ultimately determines the outcome.
The book I'm referring to is Muller - Physics for Future Presidents (http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Future-Presidents-Richard-Muller/dp/142662459X). Good book to read for the social implications of practical physics.
Edit: My lifetime book list is already paying off. I couldn't remember what this was called although I very much remember reading it, was searching around online for the title, then got frustrated and wondered if that was after I started logging books in Zotero. Sure enough, it was there. I <3 Zotero.
What kind of bugs would be used to attack corn or soy crops?
How much protection does the heavy pesticide use give us against this kind of thing? I've been thinking about the kind of position an attack or corn or soy would put us these days, but I hadn't thought about the insect angle.
Quote from: Kai on August 12, 2009, 07:05:11 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:51:36 PM
Cain might be able to answer why biowarfare in the form of insects hasn't been used by terrorists by now...but I would venture to say that it's just too stealth for them. And not so very boomtastic as bombs and planes crashing. Nonsexy in the terrorist world, so to speak, for lack of fanfare.
I think it would be more of a domestic terrorist plot, imho, like the nice white powder we saw so prevalent in '02.
Very nonsexy but very good at scaring people. So many people are afraid of bugs in the first place. I do remember reading a book about why certain methods weren't used by terrorists (like dirty bombs, or nukes), and it was along the lines you already said. Whats the point of using expensive, difficult to obtain and handle methods when good old gasoline will do the job? I mean, WTC didn't collapse due to the plane impact, those were strong buildings, but rather from the intense fire from the jet fuel bombs that the CIA planted in the building the week before.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 12, 2009, 07:16:10 PM
What kind of bugs would be used to attack corn or soy crops?
How much protection does the heavy pesticide use give us against this kind of thing? I've been thinking about the kind of position an attack or corn or soy would put us these days, but I hadn't thought about the insect angle.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/topic_field_corn_pest_insects and http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/topic_soybean_pest_insects will give you more information. The biggest issue is again, disease vectors. Given that most field crops are monocultures, an insect with a plant disease introduced into several fields over an area would be /devestating/.
Aside: Before people ceased rotating between wheat and maize in their fields, the corn silk borer (
Helicoverpa zea) was a major problem, but it requires alternation between corn and another grass, so rotating it with soy excludes it completely.
Quote from: LMNO on August 12, 2009, 07:19:42 PM
Quote from: Kai on August 12, 2009, 07:05:11 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 12, 2009, 06:51:36 PM
Cain might be able to answer why biowarfare in the form of insects hasn't been used by terrorists by now...but I would venture to say that it's just too stealth for them. And not so very boomtastic as bombs and planes crashing. Nonsexy in the terrorist world, so to speak, for lack of fanfare.
I think it would be more of a domestic terrorist plot, imho, like the nice white powder we saw so prevalent in '02.
Very nonsexy but very good at scaring people. So many people are afraid of bugs in the first place. I do remember reading a book about why certain methods weren't used by terrorists (like dirty bombs, or nukes), and it was along the lines you already said. Whats the point of using expensive, difficult to obtain and handle methods when good old gasoline will do the job? I mean, WTC didn't collapse due to the plane impact, those were strong buildings, but rather from the intense fire from the jet fuel bombs that the CIA planted in the building the week before.
ICWUTUDIDTHAR
:tinfoilhat:
That's the Republican answer, btw, to Democrats' birther arguments and the takeover of the wackados in the GOP.
"Well, you guys have the 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists!"
Yes but the dems never let them have control. You can't fix crazy, but you can ignore it.
Quote from: Kai on August 12, 2009, 06:32:53 PMI'm honestly surprised Al Quaeda hasn't exploited any entomological warfare as of yet; release of a plague into your home town is far scarier than a bomb going off in some city a thousand miles away.
They overlooked it, in their quest for a nuclear weapon.
Ayman al-Zawahiri is actually on record as saying that they didn't even consider biological warfare of any sort until the USA mentioned it as a potential threat....and that this was very stupid, given he is a doctor and that many Al-Qaeda members have a biological sciences background.
This is not comforting, especially given how brutally simple a flea vector black death bomb is. :horrormirth:
Yeah, when doctors were found amongst the terrorists tracked and arrested (was it last year? or the year before?) in the UK, my husband and his dad thought twice about going to London and claiming their profession...along with their origins. But you know, never pays to lie to customs...unless you can cover it up REAL REAL well.
I do believe many lower ranking Al-Qaeda members are not huge fans of biological weapons, however. They have a deep-seated distaste for a self-replicating weapon that could get out of hand - it might end up killing large numbers of the Ummah, or community of Islam, and there is very little justification for that much death and destruction - even for takfiri terrorists.
Using it in America, they would likely have no problem with. But infiltrating agents into America has always been very hard for them, and the American-Muslim community ain't down with the jihad. And of course, its a no-no in the Middle East, and possibly Europe (the digital and logistic centre of the international jihad) too.
Ignorant question: Are there the same "cleanliness" taboos in Islam that would prevent them from using vermin and other disease-ridden animals when carrying out an attack?
Ok, thinking about it, terrorism itself is a violation of Islam, so I guess it's also a stupid question.
Quote from: Cain on August 12, 2009, 11:14:03 PM
Quote from: Kai on August 12, 2009, 06:32:53 PMI'm honestly surprised Al Quaeda hasn't exploited any entomological warfare as of yet; release of a plague into your home town is far scarier than a bomb going off in some city a thousand miles away.
They overlooked it, in their quest for a nuclear weapon.
Ayman al-Zawahiri is actually on record as saying that they didn't even consider biological warfare of any sort until the USA mentioned it as a potential threat....and that this was very stupid, given he is a doctor and that many Al-Qaeda members have a biological sciences background.
Yeah, so basically, they've been stupid in some ways (for our grateful benefit).
A nuke may destroy a section of a city but a plague vector can roam over hundreds of miles...scary thought.
Quote from: Cain on August 13, 2009, 10:53:32 AM
I do believe many lower ranking Al-Qaeda members are not huge fans of biological weapons, however. They have a deep-seated distaste for a self-replicating weapon that could get out of hand - it might end up killing large numbers of the Ummah, or community of Islam, and there is very little justification for that much death and destruction - even for takfiri terrorists.
Using it in America, they would likely have no problem with. But infiltrating agents into America has always been very hard for them, and the American-Muslim community ain't down with the jihad. And of course, its a no-no in the Middle East, and possibly Europe (the digital and logistic centre of the international jihad) too.
Okay and okay. Thanks for your help. :)
Quote from: LMNO on August 13, 2009, 01:38:13 PM
Ignorant question: Are there the same "cleanliness" taboos in Islam that would prevent them from using vermin and other disease-ridden animals when carrying out an attack?
Ok, thinking about it, terrorism itself is a violation of Islam, so I guess it's also a stupid question.
I've been considering both those questions.
Honestly though, I've been thinking beyond
fasad-waging
takfiri to domestic threats. For example, the aforementioned corporate warfare, economic warfare, and environmental terrorism. The Breeders incident in San Franscisco over Medflies comes to mind. It seems far more likely that a group named something like Earth's Soldiers would get their hand on some medflies or crop pests inoculated with plant diseases than for some
hirabi to use this method.
Cain has said it before, that domestic terrorism is far more worrying.
Ok, good point. I fell into the "Turrurist = Mooslim" trap.
I am shamed. :oops:
How much of a contradiction would it be if Earth First! used pestilence to fuck up the environment?
Ung, I didn't even think about the eco terrorist thing. Taking advantage of GE crops potential risk of disease would fit them pretty well wouldn't it.
Quote from: LMNO on August 13, 2009, 02:46:15 PM
Ok, good point. I fell into the "Turrurist = Mooslim" trap.
I am shamed. :oops:
How much of a contradiction would it be if Earth First! used pestilence to fuck up the environment?
The same amount of contradiction as when Al Quaeda uses Islam and
jihad as-sayf to justify
fasad.
I just finished this book. Incidentally, I will be wearing 20% DEET (any higher doesn't provide more protection) whenever I am out in conditions where I might be bitten by bloodfeeders from now on. If you thought West Nile was scary, try not to consider Rift Valley Fever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rift_Valley_fever).
Quote from: LMNO on August 13, 2009, 01:38:13 PM
Ignorant question: Are there the same "cleanliness" taboos in Islam that would prevent them from using vermin and other disease-ridden animals when carrying out an attack?
Ok, thinking about it, terrorism itself is a violation of Islam, so I guess it's also a stupid question.
Also, given the 9/11 attackers
met at strip clubs before carrying out the attack, it would be guessed that any terrorist cells, especially undercover ones infiltrated into mostly non-Muslim communities, would take steps to act outside of such norms when carrying out an attack.
Like the Hashishim and some other Shiite sects, Al-Qaeda seems to believe it is permissible to break the laws of Islam, to punish an enemy of Islam. Allah takes care of the details.
And yes, biological weapons have been used before, both by domestic terrorists and religious groups. However, their minimal impact suggests that, without a well-funded organisation backing a group, bioweapon attacks will be low grade, and will either be soft-targeting (hitting a certain demographic before an election, to sway a vote, for example) or rely on the panic caused via the media.