So I have those 3 stray kittens in my garage and their mom is outside.
Calling for them.
-Do I put them back outside with her, where they can slide down the steep slope into the crick, get eaten by a possum or hawk? (hawks don't mess around in these parts)
-Or do I keep feeding them till I can find them homes.
Note- they're weened, they eat dry food, but they're tiny.
What do I do? Anyone know? :sad:
Quote from: Squid on September 29, 2009, 05:15:34 PM
So I have those 3 stray kittens in my garage and their mom is outside.
Calling for them.
-Do I put them back outside with her, where they can slide down the steep slope into the crick, get eaten by a possum or hawk? (hawks don't mess around in these parts)
-Or do I keep feeding them till I can find them homes.
Note- they're weened, they eat dry food, but they're tiny.
What do I do? Anyone know? :sad:
Make oven mitts out of 'em.
TGRR,
Not a cat person.
Find a local no-kill shelter. Kittens go fast in those places.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 29, 2009, 05:17:20 PM
Quote from: Squid on September 29, 2009, 05:15:34 PM
So I have those 3 stray kittens in my garage and their mom is outside.
Calling for them.
-Do I put them back outside with her, where they can slide down the steep slope into the crick, get eaten by a possum or hawk? (hawks don't mess around in these parts)
-Or do I keep feeding them till I can find them homes.
Note- they're weened, they eat dry food, but they're tiny.
What do I do? Anyone know? :sad:
Make oven mitts out of 'em.
TGRR,
Not a cat person.
:lulz:
Jenne, if I don't find homes for them I may have to. But what about the mom? Should I just give them back?
Put the mom in with them, if you're afraid of them coming to harm. And you can give the whole kit-n-kaboodle to the shelter...they'd get medical care that way. And feeding.
Or, they'll get gassed. Either way, no longer your problem.
:x
Alternatively, you could feed them to the Owls.
Quote from: LMNO on September 29, 2009, 05:22:42 PM
Or, they'll get gassed. Either way, no longer your problem.
NO KILL = no gas
That's why I said no-kill.
Oh. You believe that, huh?
Remember, this is Florida we're talking about.
If the cats wander into your engine block instead of your stoop, aren't you still supposed to eat them?
All No-Kill shelters have time limts, granted they are longer than the average 15 days in the pound, but evenutally an unadopted animal will be put to sleep.....
Let on the the neighborhood little girls see them and they will all be gone quickly. Little girls can't resist kittens!!
I'm not really worried about finding them homes so much as I'm worried about the mother outside looking for her children.
But I know if I leave them outside the hawks (and yes owls) will get them.
So let mom in?
Quote from: Khara on September 29, 2009, 05:48:47 PM
Let on the the neighborhood little girls see them and they will all be gone quickly. Little girls can't resist kittens!!
This is true...If you did take them in, they'd probably go really quick(..would probably be equally as true if you took them into a no-kill center). Who doesn't love kittens?....Well, except Roger(with the exception of Tom...You liked Tom! I seenit!).
Edit: I'd suggest letting the mum in. :)
Quote from: LMNO on September 29, 2009, 05:33:46 PM
Oh. You believe that, huh?
Remember, this is Florida we're talking about.
In Florida they turn them into mittens without killing them first.
Yeah, think about that for a while.
Quote from: Cain on September 29, 2009, 06:06:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO on September 29, 2009, 05:33:46 PM
Oh. You believe that, huh?
Remember, this is Florida we're talking about.
In Florida they turn them into mittens without killing them first.
Yeah, think about that for a while.
In Florida they get bitten by kitten mittens?
Quote from: Squid on September 29, 2009, 05:56:02 PM
I'm not really worried about finding them homes so much as I'm worried about the mother outside looking for her children.
But I know if I leave them outside the hawks (and yes owls) will get them.
don't deprive the poor starving owls where is your compassion??
The no-kill shelters are still better than ASPCA, just saying. Unless Squid wants the burden of getting rid of them herself (homes, hawks, owls), then no-kill is probably the best solution, really. That's how we got our dog--a no-kill rescue society who gets mutts South of the border. It's $$$ to adopt them, and that's how they make ends meet.
WWBBD?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 29, 2009, 06:23:54 PM
WWBBD?
(http://leisureblogs.chicagotribune.com/.a/6a00d8341c58f853ef0120a53adaab970b-800wi)
:lulz:
I would let her in but I don't think I can catch her. Then I'd have another cat poomping in my garage.
POOMPING. In my GARAGE.
Ugh.
Why did they choose my house?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 29, 2009, 06:23:54 PM
WWBBD?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mkSAZMwkxBM/SOTxGGNNpII/AAAAAAAAAO8/JpAsXuRL4hU/s400/animalhouse347.jpg)
Don't put them out, they'll die. So she'll be happy she got them back for about a day, and then they'll be dead and she'll be sad. For a day, and then she'll forget about them, which is what will happen once you put them somewhere she can't hear them.
Call the shelter and see if they have a live trap you can rent or borrow. Then you can catch mama and take her to the shelter along with kitties. She will probably end up being put down, but then she won't be out there breeding. Or you could do what my dad does, which is has them spayed and then releases them.
Alternately, you could start feeding her and see if you can gain her confidence.
Quote from: Nigel on September 29, 2009, 07:25:08 PM
Don't put them out, they'll die. So she'll be happy she got them back for about a day, and then they'll be dead and she'll be sad. For a day, and then she'll forget about them, which is what will happen once you put them somewhere she can't hear them.
Call the shelter and see if they have a live trap you can rent or borrow. Then you can catch mama and take her to the shelter along with kitties. She will probably end up being put down, but then she won't be out there breeding. Or you could do what my dad does, which is has them spayed and then releases them.
Alternately, you could start feeding her and see if you can gain her confidence.
THIS is a good idea....
Quote from: LMNO on September 29, 2009, 05:33:46 PM
Oh. You believe that, huh?
Remember, this is Florida we're talking about.
Florida? They probably use the little bastards for chum.
Quote from: Cain on September 29, 2009, 06:06:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO on September 29, 2009, 05:33:46 PM
Oh. You believe that, huh?
Remember, this is Florida we're talking about.
In Florida they turn them into mittens without killing them first.
Yeah, think about that for a while.
I believe I remember seeing Kathryn Harris with her hands jammed up the asses of small cats once, as some sort of weird fashion statement. She was using them as hand puppets.
Ew. You know, sometimes I worry myself. My head is like a birdcage, and it has not been cleaned. Every once in a while, something truly sick flops out between the bars, and I have to pretend nothing happened, while everyone else crowds to the other end of the bus.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 29, 2009, 07:53:03 PM
Ew. You know, sometimes I worry myself. My head is like a birdcage, and it has not been cleaned. Every once in a while, something truly sick flops out between the bars, and I have to pretend nothing happened, while everyone else crowds to the other end of the bus.
:lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 29, 2009, 07:53:03 PM
Ew. You know, sometimes I worry myself. My head is like a birdcage, and it has not been cleaned. Every once in a while, something truly sick flops out between the bars, and I have to pretend nothing happened, while everyone else crowds to the other end of the bus.
To be fair, that was pretty much the image I was trying to invoke, Kathyrn Harris aside.
Quote from: Cain on September 29, 2009, 07:58:37 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 29, 2009, 07:53:03 PM
Ew. You know, sometimes I worry myself. My head is like a birdcage, and it has not been cleaned. Every once in a while, something truly sick flops out between the bars, and I have to pretend nothing happened, while everyone else crowds to the other end of the bus.
To be fair, that was pretty much the image I was trying to invoke, Kathyrn Harris aside.
It was the Kathryn Harris part that freaked me out. :x
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 29, 2009, 07:53:03 PM
Ew. You know, sometimes I worry myself. My head is like a birdcage, and it has not been cleaned. Every once in a while, something truly sick flops out between the bars, and I have to pretend nothing happened, while everyone else crowds to the other end of the bus.
Should be your tagline.
Quote from: Nigel on September 29, 2009, 08:23:58 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 29, 2009, 07:53:03 PM
Ew. You know, sometimes I worry myself. My head is like a birdcage, and it has not been cleaned. Every once in a while, something truly sick flops out between the bars, and I have to pretend nothing happened, while everyone else crowds to the other end of the bus.
Should be your tagline.
Done!
:lulz: perfect.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 29, 2009, 07:49:09 PM
Quote from: LMNO on September 29, 2009, 05:33:46 PM
Oh. You believe that, huh?
Remember, this is Florida we're talking about.
Florida? They probably use the little bastards for chum.
Back in the late 80's they caught a group of teenagers who had tied cords around the heads of a bunch of stray cats they had caught in the neighborhood and were throwing them over the side of a bridge. Head pops off, body falls, instant chum. At least that is what they said they were doing... chumming... Hadn't thought of that in years.
Quote from: Squid on September 29, 2009, 05:15:34 PM
So I have those 3 stray kittens in my garage and their mom is outside.
Calling for them.
-Do I put them back outside with her, where they can slide down the steep slope into the crick, get eaten by a possum or hawk? (hawks don't mess around in these parts)
-Or do I keep feeding them till I can find them homes.
Note- they're weened, they eat dry food, but they're tiny.
What do I do? Anyone know? :sad:
EAT THEM.
http://www.friendsofstrays.com/
They're in St. Petersburg and I did some volunteer work there when I still lived down there. But if you call them, they can probably give you the Orange/Seminole County alternative, because I highly doubt you'd want to drive the fuzzies 2 hours.
Quote from: Nigel on September 29, 2009, 07:25:08 PM
Don't put them out, they'll die. So she'll be happy she got them back for about a day, and then they'll be dead and she'll be sad. For a day, and then she'll forget about them, which is what will happen once you put them somewhere she can't hear them.
Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know much about cats, but it seems strange to think that cats are dependent on human assistance to get through infancy. Seems like if mothers couldn't keep their kittens alive, cats should have gone extinct by now.
Quote from: Nigel on September 29, 2009, 07:25:08 PM
Don't put them out, they'll die. So she'll be happy she got them back for about a day, and then they'll be dead and she'll be sad. For a day, and then she'll forget about them, which is what will happen once you put them somewhere she can't hear them.
Call the shelter and see if they have a live trap you can rent or borrow. Then you can catch mama and take her to the shelter along with kitties. She will probably end up being put down, but then she won't be out there breeding. Or you could do what my dad does, which is has them spayed and then releases them.
Alternately, you could start feeding her and see if you can gain her confidence.
Get thee behind me Grayface...
Alright. I'm keeping them in my garage. They know how to poop in a box. They seem to have taught themselves somehow.
I may have to pass by mama cat who gets fed by my neighbor and see her stare at me as if I've eaten her children, but I tell ya, if they were out there, they'd get eaten by something else.
I may have animal control do their spay and release thing, if I can find the right contact.
These guys won't be hard to get rid of. They're cute as shit and there's only 3.
So I feel guilty, but I know they're alive.
and GOD DAMN IT ROGER, YOU MADE ME POOMP ON MY SOFA!!
also- Khara that was the worst story ever. I never wanna read it again. EVER.
also also- GA, this is Florida. I live near water. We don't have too many strays in my area, if ya catch my drift. And these hawks do not fuck around, nor do the buzzards sit around and wait for shit to die.
Quote from: Squid on September 30, 2009, 04:50:38 AM
and GOD DAMN IT ROGER, YOU MADE ME POOMP ON MY SOFA!!
How did I do that? I am but a humble Holy Man.
Quote from: Squid on September 30, 2009, 04:50:38 AM
also also- GA, this is Florida. I live near water. We don't have too many strays in my area, if ya catch my drift. And these hawks do not fuck around, nor do the buzzards sit around and wait for shit to die.
aaaahhh.
In that case, release the kittens and camp nearby with a good camera. Score some pics of apex predators and post them here.
Quote from: GA on September 30, 2009, 04:52:46 AM
Quote from: Squid on September 30, 2009, 04:50:38 AM
also also- GA, this is Florida. I live near water. We don't have too many strays in my area, if ya catch my drift. And these hawks do not fuck around, nor do the buzzards sit around and wait for shit to die.
aaaahhh.
In that case, release the kittens and camp nearby with a good camera. Score some pics of apex predators and post them here.
I'll just tell you a story instead-
Two friends of mine, guy and girl are on a walk in one of our parks, oooh, the park i got married in matter of fact, anyway---
Girl- Oh look! Baby bunnies!!
(we have those wild brown rabbits here)
Guy- heh, cute
Hawk- squeeeee, snatch
Girl- WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
true fuckin story.
Hawks 1
Rabbits 0
Aaaaaaaaaawe.
Look at em.
I just wanna rub em all over my FACE. ... cept they're all dirty and greasy and smelly.
Boy do they need a bath.
They're very feral and not used to people yet. But you know me...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NuR5gZdXm48/SG4uVomG4sI/AAAAAAAAARc/YIEAORtaG4Q/s400/agi_squeezing.jpg)
LOOKIT!!
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f45/Squidoid667/yardrats1.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f45/Squidoid667/yardrats2.jpg)
yes, squirm and hide from Elmira.
I will hug them and squeeze them...
Squirm, Hide, and Squeeze...they now have their new names. :mrgreen:
I hope you find good homes for them!
:lulz:
Those names are pretty great actually.
Yeah. They'll get good homes.
I think they're starting to get used to people. One ate while I was petting it.
I currently have four in my house... Their mother left them neck deep in water during a rainstorm. However, there were no shelters with room for kittens and everyone apparently already has all the cats they want... So Kumo, Dora, Toes and the little Black Bear are still chilling at my place.
I suddenly feel like I'm turning into the weird Cat Lady...
Heh.
I already have four of my own.
Two are mine and two are Mr Squids. You shoulda seen the day they met.
:lulz: man that was ugly
Quote from: Squid on September 30, 2009, 04:40:53 PM
Heh.
I already have four of my own.
Two are mine and two are Mr Squids. You shoulda seen the day they met.
:lulz: man that was ugly
We had two before these four troublemakers moved in.
PILES AND PILES OF KITTIES!!!!
Advice: done medium rare and served with chips, salad and garlic mayonnaise dip.
tsk, there's no meat on these things. it'd be worse than eating squirrel.
Three kittens to every one person.
Quote from: Squid on September 30, 2009, 07:06:50 PM
tsk, there's no meat on these things. it'd be worse than eating squirrel.
HEY! :argh!:
Quote from: GA on September 30, 2009, 02:14:41 AM
Quote from: Nigel on September 29, 2009, 07:25:08 PM
Don't put them out, they'll die. So she'll be happy she got them back for about a day, and then they'll be dead and she'll be sad. For a day, and then she'll forget about them, which is what will happen once you put them somewhere she can't hear them.
Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know much about cats, but it seems strange to think that cats are dependent on human assistance to get through infancy. Seems like if mothers couldn't keep their kittens alive, cats should have gone extinct by now.
They're not dependent, but the mortality rate for feral kittens is pretty horrible. Why do you think we're not completely overrun by feral cats? Most of them die.
Quote from: Nigel on September 30, 2009, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: GA on September 30, 2009, 02:14:41 AM
Quote from: Nigel on September 29, 2009, 07:25:08 PM
Don't put them out, they'll die. So she'll be happy she got them back for about a day, and then they'll be dead and she'll be sad. For a day, and then she'll forget about them, which is what will happen once you put them somewhere she can't hear them.
Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know much about cats, but it seems strange to think that cats are dependent on human assistance to get through infancy. Seems like if mothers couldn't keep their kittens alive, cats should have gone extinct by now.
They're not dependent, but the mortality rate for feral kittens is pretty horrible. Why do you think we're not completely overrun by feral cats? Most of them die.
Yep, cats as they exist today have been genetically fucked for outdoor survival, most particularly during the first 3 months of life. Once they're big enough to hunt etc they do pretty well. Also, a lot of feral mothers appear to have no really useful instinct about being a Mom.
The babies we saved were born in the basement window well of our house. (Dunno why the mom thought this was a good place). When it started to rain she moved the kittens from the hole in the ground to a spot under a bush. Once the rain got worse and water started standing in the area... she took off for a dry spot in the backyard and left the 2 week old babies. When we got to them they were up to their necks in water and crying.
Those kittens are crazy adorable!
Quote from: Nigel on September 30, 2009, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: GA on September 30, 2009, 02:14:41 AM
Quote from: Nigel on September 29, 2009, 07:25:08 PM
Don't put them out, they'll die. So she'll be happy she got them back for about a day, and then they'll be dead and she'll be sad. For a day, and then she'll forget about them, which is what will happen once you put them somewhere she can't hear them.
Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know much about cats, but it seems strange to think that cats are dependent on human assistance to get through infancy. Seems like if mothers couldn't keep their kittens alive, cats should have gone extinct by now.
They're not dependent, but the mortality rate for feral kittens is pretty horrible. Why do you think we're not completely overrun by feral cats? Most of them die.
The reason why most of them die is because people intervened when their ancestors were faced with the same situations, thus short-circuiting natural selection...
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on September 30, 2009, 09:59:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on September 30, 2009, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: GA on September 30, 2009, 02:14:41 AM
Quote from: Nigel on September 29, 2009, 07:25:08 PM
Don't put them out, they'll die. So she'll be happy she got them back for about a day, and then they'll be dead and she'll be sad. For a day, and then she'll forget about them, which is what will happen once you put them somewhere she can't hear them.
Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know much about cats, but it seems strange to think that cats are dependent on human assistance to get through infancy. Seems like if mothers couldn't keep their kittens alive, cats should have gone extinct by now.
They're not dependent, but the mortality rate for feral kittens is pretty horrible. Why do you think we're not completely overrun by feral cats? Most of them die.
The reason why most of them die is because people intervened when their ancestors were faced with the same situations, thus short-circuiting natural selection...
So?
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on September 30, 2009, 09:59:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on September 30, 2009, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: GA on September 30, 2009, 02:14:41 AM
Quote from: Nigel on September 29, 2009, 07:25:08 PM
Don't put them out, they'll die. So she'll be happy she got them back for about a day, and then they'll be dead and she'll be sad. For a day, and then she'll forget about them, which is what will happen once you put them somewhere she can't hear them.
Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know much about cats, but it seems strange to think that cats are dependent on human assistance to get through infancy. Seems like if mothers couldn't keep their kittens alive, cats should have gone extinct by now.
They're not dependent, but the mortality rate for feral kittens is pretty horrible. Why do you think we're not completely overrun by feral cats? Most of them die.
The reason why most of them die is because people intervened when their ancestors were faced with the same situations, thus short-circuiting natural selection...
Thank you, professor. Next, will you kindly explain why I don't give a fuck?
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on September 30, 2009, 09:59:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on September 30, 2009, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: GA on September 30, 2009, 02:14:41 AM
Quote from: Nigel on September 29, 2009, 07:25:08 PM
Don't put them out, they'll die. So she'll be happy she got them back for about a day, and then they'll be dead and she'll be sad. For a day, and then she'll forget about them, which is what will happen once you put them somewhere she can't hear them.
Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know much about cats, but it seems strange to think that cats are dependent on human assistance to get through infancy. Seems like if mothers couldn't keep their kittens alive, cats should have gone extinct by now.
They're not dependent, but the mortality rate for feral kittens is pretty horrible. Why do you think we're not completely overrun by feral cats? Most of them die.
The reason why most of them die is because people intervened when their ancestors were faced with the same situations, thus short-circuiting natural selection...
Not that there's anything WRONG with that. Simply, domesticated animals require human assistance for survival. Its no different for dogs or cows or any other domesticated organism, and there
isn't anything wrong with that. Seriously, agriculture, which is ALL domestication in some way or another, is what allows us to be sedentary in large groups rather than nomadic in family groups.
Quote from: Kai on September 30, 2009, 10:31:04 PM
Not that there's anything WRONG with that. Simply, domesticated animals require human assistance for survival. Its no different for dogs or cows or any other domesticated organism, and thereisn't anything wrong with that. Seriously, agriculture, which is ALL domestication in some way or another, is what allows us to be sedentary in large groups rather than nomadic in family groups.
Well, except for the splody-chickens.
You know, the ones that, even if you take em to a free range and let them play with the other chickens will just sit on their ass and grow and eat and grow until they sort of crush themselves from the inside with their own meat like 6-8 weeks after hatching. Which is still about twice as long as they would have had in the meat-factories.
I mean, sure, domestication is all fun and games, until your chickens strangle themselves with their own meat, you know?
This sort of nonsense is IMO the only valid reason for vegetarianism. And the reason why I try to buy mostly bio/eco/hippie/organic meat, even if bio chicken breast is more than twice as expensive, I'll just eat less of it then.
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 01, 2009, 11:09:57 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 30, 2009, 10:31:04 PM
Not that there's anything WRONG with that. Simply, domesticated animals require human assistance for survival. Its no different for dogs or cows or any other domesticated organism, and thereisn't anything wrong with that. Seriously, agriculture, which is ALL domestication in some way or another, is what allows us to be sedentary in large groups rather than nomadic in family groups.
Well, except for the splody-chickens.
You know, the ones that, even if you take em to a free range and let them play with the other chickens will just sit on their ass and grow and eat and grow until they sort of crush themselves from the inside with their own meat like 6-8 weeks after hatching. Which is still about twice as long as they would have had in the meat-factories.
I mean, sure, domestication is all fun and games, until your chickens strangle themselves with their own meat, you know?
This sort of nonsense is IMO the only valid reason for vegetarianism. And the reason why I try to buy mostly bio/eco/hippie/organic meat, even if bio chicken breast is more than twice as expensive, I'll just eat less of it then.
Sorry, I didn't say anything about domestication ethics, only that theres nothing wrong with the overall process of domestication, even understanding that it removes wild type fitness from the animals (and plants for that matter).
not ethics? but if you say "there's nothing wrong with", by making that distinction, you are making moral judgement and therefore automatically in the domain of ethics?
then I must really misunderstand you, what do you mean by "nothing wrong with", if not that?
It can also be argued that some species have cleverly exploited humans through self-domestication and as a result have thrived. Had Felis silvestris lybica never been domesticated, it would still be few and limited to a pretty small geographical area. As the result of domestication, yes, housecats are less fit to survive in the wild, but they are on every continent and very numerous. What is the measure of success for a species?
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 01, 2009, 12:20:17 PM
not ethics? but if you say "there's nothing wrong with", by making that distinction, you are making moral judgement and therefore automatically in the domain of ethics?
then I must really misunderstand you, what do you mean by "nothing wrong with", if not that?
Well there's a difference between "nothing wrong with domestication" and "Nothing wrong with manipulating hormones and genetics to create disfigured critters that cannot actually survive due to choking on their own neck meats".
Sorta like I see nothing wrong with not eating meat.... but I think Vegans are just completely insane. :lulz:
Quote from: Nigel on October 01, 2009, 04:23:53 PM
It can also be argued that some species have cleverly exploited humans through self-domestication and as a result have thrived. Had Felis silvestris lybica never been domesticated, it would still be few and limited to a pretty small geographical area. As the result of domestication, yes, housecats are less fit to survive in the wild, but they are on every continent and very numerous. What is the measure of success for a species?
From Daniel Dennett:
"Domestication of both plants and animals occurred without any farseeing intention or invention on the part of the stewards of the seeds and studs. But what a stroke of good fortune for those lineages that became domesticated! All that remains of the ancestors of today's grains are small scattered patches of wild-grass cousins, and the nearest surviving relatives of all the domesticated animals could be carried off in a few arks. How clever of wild sheep to have acquired that most versatile adaptation, the shepherd! By forming a symbiotic alliance with Homo sapiens, sheep could outsource their chief survival tasks: food finding and predator avoidance. They even got shelter and emergency medical care thrown in as a bonus. The price they paid—losing the freedom of mate selection and being slaughtered instead of being killed by predators (if that is a cost)—was a pittance compared with the gain in offspring survival it purchased. But of course it wasn't their cleverness that explains the good bargain. It was the blind, foresightless cleverness of Mother Nature, evolution, which ratified the free-floating rationale of this arrangement. Sheep and other domesticated animals are, in fact, significantly more stupid than their wild relatives—because they can be. Their brains are smaller (relative to body size and weight), and this is not just due to their having been bred for muscle mass (meat). Since both the domesticated animals and their domesticators have enjoyed huge population explosions (going from less than 1 percent of the terrestrial vertebrate biomass ten thousand years ago to over 98 percent today), there can be no doubt that this symbiosis was mutualistic —fitness-enhancing to both parties."What was this thread about again? :?
Squiddy got infested with cute kitties!
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on October 01, 2009, 04:35:17 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 01, 2009, 12:20:17 PM
not ethics? but if you say "there's nothing wrong with", by making that distinction, you are making moral judgement and therefore automatically in the domain of ethics?
then I must really misunderstand you, what do you mean by "nothing wrong with", if not that?
Well there's a difference between "nothing wrong with domestication" and "Nothing wrong with manipulating hormones and genetics to create disfigured critters that cannot actually survive due to choking on their own neck meats".
they didn't use hormones in the experiment, btw. it was in a dutch documentary-series "de keuringsdienst van waarden" (a pun on the dutch FDA's name), they bought this little new-born chick and then brought it to a nice friendly chicken range with other chickens and fed it good quality food and played with it in order to give it a happy life instead of the meat-factory life. but then one day it just fell over.
you can watch the episodes online, but I doubt they're very interesting without the subtitles. but good fun to watch, they find out really odd stuff about some of the bullshit surrounding the origins of food and consumer goods (not just meat, also orange juice, and menstrual pads).
QuoteSorta like I see nothing wrong with not eating meat.... but I think Vegans are just completely insane. :lulz:
Absolutely. No disagreement there :)
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 01, 2009, 06:09:40 PM
they didn't use hormones in the experiment, btw. it was in a dutch documentary-series "de keuringsdienst van waarden" (a pun on the dutch FDA's name), they bought this little new-born chick and then brought it to a nice friendly chicken range with other chickens and fed it good quality food and played with it in order to give it a happy life instead of the meat-factory life. but then one day it just fell over.
you can watch the episodes online, but I doubt they're very interesting without the subtitles. but good fun to watch, they find out really odd stuff about some of the bullshit surrounding the origins of food and consumer goods (not just meat, also orange juice, and menstrual pads).
There are many reasons this so called "experiment" (entertainiment?) sounds suspect to me. I am passingly familiar with commercial chicken meat strains, and first, are simply hybrids of recognized breeds, usually Cornish and White Plymouth Rock. Cornish do tend toward obesity, are expensive to feed because of their body size, and are relatively poor layers, but they don't tend to spontaneously collapse under their own weight and die.
Second, a sample size of one chick is completely meaningless.
Third, chickens just up and die sometimes. It's usually bacterial. Rarely, it's congenital. I've seen this discussed on the chicken forums many times.
Fourth, if these chickens are special strains designed to not be able to live to adulthood, how the hell do they make more of them? In the lab? They have to be able to live to breed, and those that don't, can't pass on their genes. Trying to raise a whole bunch of them just to get a few who will survive would make breeding them prohibitively unprofitable.
Fifth, why did they play with the chicken? I don't understand that part. Chickens do not especially enjoy being played with.
i am with Nigel on this one exploding chickens sounds a lot more like a urban legend/propaganda that Peta would start than profitable animal husbandry
Quote from: Nigel on October 01, 2009, 09:12:16 PM
Fifth, why did they play with the chicken? I don't understand that part. Chickens do not especially enjoy being played with.
it's a lighthearted documentary, they took the piss on the organic meat industry just as much by exagerating the Wonderful Life chickens should have according to the pictures organic products packing material.
also the documentary series doesnt really set out to "prove" anything, but just document.
and in the bio industry, yes they just need a fertilized egg and a machine.
as for your other questions, I will watch the documentary again with a critical eye and see if it might just have been a chicken that was defective for reasons unrelated to being a bio industry chicken (I don't really remember the details it's been a while).
all I can say, given the reputation of the documentary series itself, I'm inclined to trust them, and definitely rule out urban legend/peta propaganda (that's not their angle, they just document the bullshit that is going on in the consumer goods industry, a lot of it is about marketing as well btw, trying to find that authentic italian village where the Bertolli pasta sauce is made as seen in the commercial, except that it turns out to be a Dutch brand and the old authentic lady actress is Spanish). but they're not trying to prove anything, just showing things, in a light hearted manner. and it's very interesting.
I want a pet chicken. :(
Quote from: Suu on October 01, 2009, 10:17:06 PM
I want a pet chicken. :(
I WANT AN OOMPA LOOMPA NOOOOOW!
(http://kaneconsulting.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/veruca_salt.jpg)
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 01, 2009, 11:09:57 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 30, 2009, 10:31:04 PM
Not that there's anything WRONG with that. Simply, domesticated animals require human assistance for survival. Its no different for dogs or cows or any other domesticated organism, and thereisn't anything wrong with that. Seriously, agriculture, which is ALL domestication in some way or another, is what allows us to be sedentary in large groups rather than nomadic in family groups.
Well, except for the splody-chickens.
You know, the ones that, even if you take em to a free range and let them play with the other chickens will just sit on their ass and grow and eat and grow until they sort of crush themselves from the inside with their own meat like 6-8 weeks after hatching. Which is still about twice as long as they would have had in the meat-factories.
I mean, sure, domestication is all fun and games, until your chickens strangle themselves with their own meat, you know?
I laughed so hard I damn near pissed myself.
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 01, 2009, 10:13:17 PM
and in the bio industry, yes they just need a fertilized egg and a machine.
Trip. Stop for a sec.
What do chickens have to do in order to produce a fertile egg?
Hint: it involves not spontaneously dying before reaching reproductive maturity...
Quote
as for your other questions, I will watch the documentary again with a critical eye and see if it might just have been a chicken that was defective for reasons unrelated to being a bio industry chicken (I don't really remember the details it's been a while).
It really doesn't matter. A sample size of one chicken is
meaningless. No matter how closely you observe it.
Words cannot express how disappointed I will be if 'splodey chickens don't exist.
:sad:
I have done some research on the most popular meat chicken in the US, the Cornish Rock Cross, and I have learned that 000 is totally right, or at least close, on several counts! To my great surprise.
Both Cornish and White Plymouth Rocks are pretty normal chickens, which is why this surprised me.
However, when crossbred, their offspring grow far faster than either parent bird, and the strain this puts on their hearts means that they are far more likely to die of heart failure than either parent breed. It's not so much that they collapse under the weight of their own meat, as it is that their hearts cannot keep up with the rate of growth. They are actually terrible breeders and almost always are first-generation hybrids, with the mother being the White Plymouth Rock (better layers) and the father being the Cornish.
So there it is... while a sample of one is still utterly meaningless other than for illustration purposes (and the odds that it would keel over were pretty low even so, unless they had it at a high altitude - they're not recommended for altitudes over 5000 feet due to the heart strain issue) the rest of my questions have been answered and Trip wins. Except for the "why would they play with it?" question. I still don't get that.
High temperatures or temperature fluctuations are also really bad for these birds, apparently.
Quote from: Nigel on October 01, 2009, 11:40:22 PM
I have done some research on the most popular meat chicken in the US, the Cornish Rock Cross, and I have learned that 000 is totally right, or at least close, on several counts! To my great surprise.
Both Cornish and White Plymouth Rocks are pretty normal chickens, which is why this surprised me.
However, when crossbred, their offspring grow far faster than either parent bird, and the strain this puts on their hearts means that they are far more likely to die of heart failure than either parent breed. It's not so much that they collapse under the weight of their own meat, as it is that their hearts cannot keep up with the rate of growth. They are actually terrible breeders and almost always are first-generation hybrids, with the mother being the White Plymouth Rock (better layers) and the father being the Cornish.
So there it is... while a sample of one is still utterly meaningless other than for illustration purposes (and the odds that it would keel over were pretty low even so, unless they had it at a high altitude - they're not recommended for altitudes over 5000 feet due to the heart strain issue) the rest of my questions have been answered and Trip wins. Except for the "why would they play with it?" question. I still don't get that.
hahaha
So, they basically fucked with nature till they got that thing that pukes instead of talking, shakes and quivers and turns itself inside out to poop?
Nice.
Quote from: Squid on October 02, 2009, 05:11:36 AM
So, they basically fucked with nature till they got that thing that pukes instead of talking, shakes and quivers and turns itself inside out to poop?
Nice.
Goddammit, I love this fucking decade. :lol:
TGRR,
Wishes he could turn himself inside out to poop. Has the other qualities
down.
Hey, we could just give them little chicken pacemakers to keep them going until they're big enough for market.
Or just hire a geek to run around with a defibrillator and a dozen sets of batteries.
I'll do it!
CLEAR!
BUGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOCK!!!!!!
Quote from: Squid on October 02, 2009, 05:22:07 AM
I'll do it!
CLEAR!
BUGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOCK!!!!!!
:lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 02, 2009, 05:16:05 AM
Or just hire a geek to run around with a defibrillator and a dozen sets of batteries.
Ooh, good idea! And we'd only have to hire him for a poultry sum!
...
Sorry.
Quote from: Nasturtiums on October 02, 2009, 05:32:04 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 02, 2009, 05:16:05 AM
Or just hire a geek to run around with a defibrillator and a dozen sets of batteries.
Ooh, good idea! And we'd only have to hire him for a poultry sum!
...
Sorry.
.....................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hk98AIMwbc&feature=related
Quote from: Nigel on October 01, 2009, 11:40:22 PM
Except for the "why would they play with it?" question. I still don't get that.
'round these parts we call it "choking"
the playing was a joke, they would sort of cuddle it, like a pet and talk nice words to it, cause they freed the chicken from the horrors of the meat factory and gave it a happy new organic life. it was hyperbole, they might have given it chicken chew toys for all that matter, I don't remember.
I'm really gonna watch that doc again soon, the bit about strangling on their own meat could have been heart issues just as well. And the sample size, why couldn't they have done their research (like you did) and show one chicken as an example? it would have been way less interesting if they'd show a scientific experiment with 100 chicks. maybe you don't understand, but the rescueing of a chicken from a meat factory wasn't to "prove" (in a scientific rigorous fashion) that this would happen, it was just part of a much larger story.
also, given that I was sort of right it seems, I will drop it for now and report back when I have actually rewatched the documentary. otherwise we'll just end up spoiling Roger's fun with facts instead of sploding chickens.