...once said "Give me liberty or give me death", which was the origin of "Or Kill Me". But what's really interesting is that it really IS a binary solution. You're either free, or you're dead. The dead part can mean they killed you for demanding your freedom, or the living death that is slavery.
He was a freak and a mutant, and he vehemently opposed the federalists...and he was right. Whereas the articles of confederation were too weak to govern, the current constitution set up a plethora of tyrants, and not just the ones who live in Washington.
There's nowhere you can go to get away from it. They're in your teevee and your internet and your doctor's office. They arrest 6 year olds for felony charges for acting out in class, and they do anything they damn well please, as long as they use the right words to describe it. National Security. Too Big to Fail. You know what I mean.
Any movement to curb this is instantly co-opted, repackaged, and sold as a conspiracy product. By the time you've heard of it, it's shrink wrapped and stamped with a UPC. Alternative music, for example, was alternative for about 5 minutes. The hilarious "tea baggers" went from a couple of pissed off bloggers to a Fox News/Health Insurance Company production inside of a week.
They don't even need a pair of jackboots to pull it off, either. They have 99% of the population convinced that what's happening is what the founders intended. And this wasn't really difficult, was it? No, the population as a whole has tired of the idea of self-governance, and is more than happy to sit back and let their lives get run by the very same people who produce COPS and The Big House, and other Pink-taming shows.
Patrick Henry also said "If this be treason, let us make the most of it", and he was right about that, too. I'm not talking about treason against a country, because I no longer recognize my country (or anyone else's) as a legitimate - or even real - entity. I'm talking cultural treason. The enemy isn't some fat bastard in the house of representatives, the enemy is right in your living room. See that television set? It isn't a television set, it's a giant fucking elephant, which we have been trained not to see.
Because it's not just a glowing box, is it? No, it's a means by which The Conspiracy is brought to you, day after day. It is the million-ton shit hammer that they use to pound us all into their round holes. It is their weapon, the vector by which they spread their disease. Do you think it's any accident that during the worst economic disaster in 80 years, the "government" allocated money to insure that even (especially) poor people could get the digital converter boxes required to keep their TVs functioning?
No, that was no accident. It was an offensive, or rather a containment effort, meant to ensure that as few people as possible fell through the cracks.
So here's my question: What do we do about this, without becoming the next "lone nut" they'll shriek about on Fox and CNN? And we're going to have to do something, and do it soon, because tomorrow never comes.
Sound a little radical? Okay. I'm feeling a little radical. I'm fairly certain that Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson would not have considered the term an insult...and they make better company than the pasty fucking drones that surround me every day.
Or Kill Me.
The TV is only the prow of the boat, man. The power behind the throne is the strength and prevalence of culture itself. The notion that all these fads and rituals and public issues are things we should value. The idea that we need to have these common experiences and reactions in order to be a member of the Group.
Our brains are wired for tribal survival. None of us would be here if we didn't have an ancestor that knew how to stay in the tribe's good graces. Well now survival isn't the primary issue, and those systems are in the way of our raw untapped individuality.
So don't just smash the TV. Smash everything that's on it, too.
Individuals of the world, don't unite!
It's a tough call, Roger. When I calm the hurricane of my life down enough to start paying attention to what the hell the bastards are trying to force down our throats, every cell in my body screams for a violent smashing of heads. Heads of state, heads of corporations, heads of ministers and the yammering heads on the screen who give us their interpretation of "news".
I want to run through the streets with a bullhorn and a flare gun, aiming at power transformers and phone lines, acting like an alarm clock the size of King Kong, and tell people to WAKE THE FUCK UP!
But then I think of Cool Hand Luke. And I think of Nice Guy Jesus (Version 1.0). And yeah, I think of Patrick Henry. And you know what? Nails that stick out get hammered down. It's not a question of "they got the guns, but we got the numbers." They clearly have both the guns and the numbers. Look at Patrick. He was able to get an entire group of rich white guys to agree to kick England's ass, but in the end, he was alone. They didn't want to abolish tyrants, they just wanted smaller tyrants... and a chance to become one themsleves. Revolutions aren't won by revolutionaries, they're won by the bleating masses revolutionaries manage to convince to their side, who then revert back to bleating masses as soon as it's convenient.
So, where's the escape? How can you wrest liberty from the hands of death? We've seen what happens when you boldly stand in front of the Machine™, with one finger on each hand up. Crunch, crunch. That's not the way to go, unless you want a quick exit, stage right, being chased by a mechanical bear.
Here's a thought: Instead of being that nail that sticks up, why not stop acting like a nail, at all? Maybe it's not about fighting the State, maybe it's about not being around when the State shows up? You're not ignoring the existence of the State and going off the grid (which quickly gets picked up by the Satellites), it's more like you don't have anything they can point their guns or their numbers at.
The country's going to hell, Roger, and Brave Women and Men are in short supply. Maybe it would be best if we stayed out of the line of fire, and try to get more humans to stand on their feet. And then, maybe, one day, we'd have enough numbers.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 18, 2009, 04:16:36 PM
The TV is only the prow of the boat, man. The power behind the throne is the strength and prevalence of culture itself. The notion that all these fads and rituals and public issues are things we should value. The idea that we need to have these common experiences and reactions in order to be a member of the Group.
Our brains are wired for tribal survival. None of us would be here if we didn't have an ancestor that knew how to stay in the tribe's good graces. Well now survival isn't the primary issue, and those systems are in the way of our raw untapped individuality.
So don't just smash the TV. Smash everything that's on it, too.
Individuals of the world, don't unite!
I have to disagree. First off, if the TV existed without the cultural garbage that comes with it, we'd invent more garbage to fill it. Hell, we did the first time, right? Also, the TV is the keystone of the Conspiracy.
But I'm perfectly willing to hear ideas on how to smash everything that's on it, as well.
Quote from: LMNO on November 18, 2009, 04:26:44 PM
But then I think of Cool Hand Luke. And I think of Nice Guy Jesus (Version 1.0). And yeah, I think of Patrick Henry. And you know what? Nails that stick out get hammered down.
We're being hammered down anyway. Just
slowly.
Quote from: LMNO on November 18, 2009, 04:26:44 PM
Here's a thought: Instead of being that nail that sticks up, why not stop acting like a nail, at all? Maybe it's not about fighting the State, maybe it's about not being around when the State shows up? You're not ignoring the existence of the State and going off the grid (which quickly gets picked up by the Satellites), it's more like you don't have anything they can point their guns or their numbers at.
Sure. I'm not saying that we should barge into peoples' houses with hammers, destroying their televisions. What I AM saying is that the key part of the problem has been identified, and now we need to find a way to deal with that problem. Obviously a direct approach is doomed to failure, for the very reasons you mentioned. But there has to be a way, because no system is perfect. We just have to figure out a means by which to exploit the flaws in the system. It took 60 years to get into this trap, it's not like we're going to solve it in a week...but there must be a way.
Quote from: LMNO on November 18, 2009, 04:26:44 PM
The country's going to hell, Roger, and Brave Women and Men are in short supply. Maybe it would be best if we stayed out of the line of fire, and try to get more humans to stand on their feet. And then, maybe, one day, we'd have enough numbers.
Never gonna happen. They were given the means to stand on their feet a long time ago, and they sat the fuck down. I'd just as soon let them wheeze their way to their doom, but they're gonna take us with them.
I think the TV is just a symptom... look at how many spags have completely escaped into the Internet instead of the television... people not going to work, not feeding their kids because they're too busy with their 'second life'. People being 'addicted' to the Net, or their Blackberry or SMS text messages...
Fo Erissake, just count the number of humans staring into the tiny screen of their cell phone, thumbing through letters while they're visiting friends, going to eat, watching a movie etc etc etc
The PROBLEM, in my opinion... is bored monkeys. Monkeys that are bored because they have nothing they MUST do... food, survival, shelter are all easy to get... You just go sit in a tiny box for 8 hours and magically the tribe will give you bio-survival tickets. Those tickets will provide you with food and shelter and something to distract you from your lack of a life. No hunting or gathering, no exercise required, no thinking... hell you don't even have to actually cook your food... you can give someone a couple tickets and they will cook it and bring it to your house. Or you can just throw a frozen block into your microwave and magically have a hot, tasteless pile of stuff that technically counts as food.
If not television, then the Internet or cell phones or naughty magazines or bad books and romance novels... anything to distract the monkey from his boring, meaningless existence.*
* Cause of the Drug 'Problems' too (IMO)
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 18, 2009, 04:36:07 PM
I think the TV is just a symptom... look at how many spags have completely escaped into the Internet instead of the television... people not going to work, not feeding their kids because they're too busy with their 'second life'. People being 'addicted' to the Net, or their Blackberry or SMS text messages...
That's an additional vector, yes. But the mosquito isn't a symptom of malaria. Also, the internet actually has uses other than to let Beck/Olbermann/Oprah/Etc tell you what to think, or what pills to take, or who to hate. So, yeah, the internet may be dangerous, but it isn't JUST that. And yeah, Blackberrys and cell phones are a curse.
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 18, 2009, 04:36:07 PM
The PROBLEM, in my opinion... is bored monkeys.
Okay, that's an interesting thought. Any solutions come to mind?
It's like the man said, "Hell is Other People". This world of Reality TV and Easy Answers and Force-Fed Pablum and Instant Dinners and 76 Beers On Tap... All Coors and Nutrition Free Calories and Busywork and Insurance Payments and Mortgages and Rent and Motorized Department Store Wheelchairs and Celebrity for Celebrity's Sake...
It's EASY. And it's COMFORTABLE. All you need is a slow rotation to avoid bedsores.
It takes a lot to make a human chafe when faced by the silken smooth texture of artificial aloe vera. You need something that's going to throw you off balance, to grind the rotation to a halt.
How the hell do you compel curiosity?
Quote from: LMNO on November 18, 2009, 04:42:57 PM
How the hell do you compel curiosity?
Fear (of the unknown), humor, or greed.
Hey.
Maybe the trick is to make the bed uncomfortable. Speaking in general terms. I have no clue yet as to how to do that.
To stretch it to the breaking point, I suspect we must become bedbugs.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2009, 04:44:15 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 18, 2009, 04:42:57 PM
How the hell do you compel curiosity?
Fear (of the unknown), humor, or greed.
Interestingly, Discordia gives us two out of three... and Subgenius provides the third.
Quote from: LMNO on November 18, 2009, 04:46:12 PM
To stretch it to the breaking point, I suspect we must become bedbugs.
Okay.
Now, can we get this out of metaphor and into something approaching a practicible plan?
(Also, should I move this to BIP?)
I think that when you've imprinted a group of 3 billion people as your tribe, rather than a local group of peers, you start to internalize all these weird mixed messages about how you should act, how you should look, what kind of expectations you should put on other people. These aren't the demands of your immediate peers, they're the vague tastes of your 3 billion peers distorted by commercial and media filters. It is the MachineTM itself.
I think of teenage girls who learn that attractiveness is in magazines and on the red carpet and not in the minds of the horny teenage boys who don't give a flying fuck if they're "overweight" (whatever the fuck THAT means these days). And conversely, I think of the teenage boys who are convinced that their significant other must be blonde and blue, with big tits and a slutty disposition. It's a product of taking culture too seriously, we've internalized all this garbage and now we expect it.
also,
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/maslow.png)
Quote from: LMNO on November 18, 2009, 04:47:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2009, 04:44:15 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 18, 2009, 04:42:57 PM
How the hell do you compel curiosity?
Fear (of the unknown), humor, or greed.
Interestingly, Discordia gives us two out of three... and Subgenius provides the third.
Equally as interesting, those two haven't yielded results (yet).
Well, maybe that's not exactly true. I mean, this place started with 4-6 people, and now it has hundreds.
But the rate of growth is too slow.
I have an idea, something
similar to Safaris, with a touch of HIMEOBS, that might be worth using as a test bed. While the internet might not be the same as IRL efforts, it makes a great sounding board. Lemme think this through and propose it.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 18, 2009, 04:49:19 PM
I think that when you've imprinted a group of 3 billion people as your tribe, rather than a local group of peers, you start to internalize all these weird mixed messages about how you should act, how you should look, what kind of expectations you should put on other people. These aren't the demands of your immediate peers, they're the vague tastes of your 3 billion peers distorted by commercial and media filters. It is the MachineTM itself.
I think of teenage girls who learn that attractiveness is in magazines and on the red carpet and not in the minds of the horny teenage boys who don't give a flying fuck if they're "overweight" (whatever the fuck THAT means these days). And conversely, I think of the teenage boys who are convinced that their significant other must be blonde and blue, with big tits and a slutty disposition. It's a product of taking culture too seriously, we've internalized all this garbage and now we expect it.
also,
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/maslow.png)
Can't see the pic.
But you're right, too. Perhaps a meme or a fad making those things ridiculous is in order.
anyway, moving in a practical direction---
when I'm out there putting up posters, my favorite reaction is the people who are baffled that I'm not selling something. My posters do not advertise a website, a product, or any commercial interests. They contain marketing, but I'm marketing for a greater good other than the GDP. I'm not even trying to make a name for myself, I'm just out having fun. People take money so seriously, it's so wired into our survival mechanism, that it the dominant context. Well I want to make laughter and absurdity the dominant context in my life, so that's what I'm selling.
The absurdists had it down. If your tastes happen to align with popular ones, bully for you. But don't use all those fucking spags as your primary reference point. I don't want to comment on culture, adding another fatty opinion to the already clogged arteries of American discourse. I want to sweep the table clean and find some value in something fresh, damnit!
Quote from: Cramulus on November 18, 2009, 04:54:43 PM
anyway, moving in a practical direction---
when I'm out there putting up posters, my favorite reaction is the people who are baffled that I'm not selling something. My posters do not advertise a website, a product, or any commercial interests. They contain marketing, but I'm marketing for a greater good other than the GDP. I'm not even trying to make a name for myself, I'm just out having fun. People take money so seriously, it's so wired into our survival mechanism, that it the dominant context. Well I want to make laughter and absurdity the dominant context in my life, so that's what I'm selling.
The absurdists had it down. If your tastes happen to align with popular ones, bully for you. But don't use all those fucking spags as your primary reference point. I don't want to comment on culture, adding another fatty opinion to the already clogged arteries of American discourse. I want to sweep the table clean and find some value in something fresh, damnit!
You just gave me an idea that will either be a screaming success, get me thrown into an undisclosed location, or both.
Check PM.
Quote from: LMNO on November 18, 2009, 04:58:13 PM
Check PM.
Right.
Also, you know who Lady Gaga reminds me of?
Lord Buckley.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2009, 04:41:43 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 18, 2009, 04:36:07 PM
I think the TV is just a symptom... look at how many spags have completely escaped into the Internet instead of the television... people not going to work, not feeding their kids because they're too busy with their 'second life'. People being 'addicted' to the Net, or their Blackberry or SMS text messages...
That's an additional vector, yes. But the mosquito isn't a symptom of malaria. Also, the internet actually has uses other than to let Beck/Olbermann/Oprah/Etc tell you what to think, or what pills to take, or who to hate. So, yeah, the internet may be dangerous, but it isn't JUST that. And yeah, Blackberrys and cell phones are a curse.
I should have said the popularity and innanity of television is the symptom. Hell, television could be used for useful stuff as well... it isn't inherently badwrong, any moreso than the net. I remember once upon a time that there were educational programs on television which I watched in school and learned all sorts of interesting things... but now we have Discovery, History, National Geographic (channels one would think ran educational stuff) running stories about aliens, haunted houses and 2012. The Monkeys don't want "Planet Earth" they want the "Secret History of the Freemasons". And news?! Pffft, monkeys don't want real news... real news is depressing and bland. Monkeys WANT CONTROVERSY... they want that rush of chemicals when the talking head says "AND THEN THE PRESIDENT BOWED TOO LOW TO THE JAPANESE EMPEROR!!!" or "THIS PASTOR WANTS TO KILL GAYS!!"
I mean actual news would be something like: "The economy currently sucks and economists admit its because they don't really know how the economy works. They also wanted to make sure we mentioned that the President doesn't actually have any real power to impact the economy right now, so don't blame him..." Who wants that? That doesn't get your blood moving and make you feel alive.
Quote
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 18, 2009, 04:36:07 PM
The PROBLEM, in my opinion... is bored monkeys.
Okay, that's an interesting thought. Any solutions come to mind?
Well, I'm not really sure. If we consider humans to be evolved primates, we must assume that they survived through adaptation. Those adaptations made it possible to go kill animals and eat them, to hunt for nuts/berries etc and to be constantly active and aware, to avoid being a dinner for some other predator.
If we look through history these general points have held for most humans until the 20th century. After the Industrial Revolution, we now live in a world that we are not adapted to... at least not yet.
Can you imagine some regular joe (let's not count nobility and rich people) a living 150 years ago that couldn't cook their own food? That was unable to skin an animal or prep a chicken for cooking?
On top of that, Mr. Edison has made it possible for us all to ignore the basic standards that governed our sleep cycle for the first few 100,000 years.
Q: If you don't have to go to sleep after dark, WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO WITH ALL THAT TIME?
A: Watch Television or Play in my virtual gardening game.... those virtual carrots won't virtually harvest themselves! OH SHIT THE TALKING HEAD ON THE TV SAYS THAT OBAMA IS GONNA RELEASE ALL THE GITMO TERRORISTS!!!!!
Without returning to pre-Industrial standards, it seems we have few options.... over time, we can hope that we adapt to these uneventful lives somehow... OR, we need to find something useful/constructive/interesting to replace mindless entertainment.
How we do that? Fuck if I know.
Also, there have been 9 replies since I started writing this... so there may be some stuff mentioned already.
just to riff on absurdity a bit more
Some say that life is characterized by the quest for meaning. Some say that the world we live in is really "screwed up" because so many people are finding meaning in ultimately meaningless / low quality things. Or perhaps they're not really on their own quest for meaning, they're just inheriting symbolism from the greater cultural narrative, and this is why people can no longer distinguish a high quality life from a low quality one. Not all those symbols should apply to everybody!
If you watch enough TV, if you read the paper, if you talk to people on the internet, you eventually get the idea that love and money are the two driving forces in the human soul. And this is such a sham.
The Existentials say that in lieu of religion, we have to make our own meaning. Each of us has to make our own meaning every day, and that's what gives life value.
The absurdists say Maybe. Maybe even that is meaningless.
There is the self, and then there is the universe. The two can never be reconciled.
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 18, 2009, 05:16:14 PM
... but now we have Discovery, History, National Geographic (channels one would think ran educational stuff) running stories about aliens, haunted houses and 2012.
:crankey:
Fuck. Now I'm all full of rage.
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 18, 2009, 05:16:14 PM
Without returning to pre-Industrial standards, it seems we have few options.... over time, we can hope that we adapt to these uneventful lives somehow... OR, we need to find something useful/constructive/interesting to replace mindless entertainment.
Or we need to reframe the way people see what's put in front of them.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2009, 05:24:35 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 18, 2009, 05:16:14 PM
... but now we have Discovery, History, National Geographic (channels one would think ran educational stuff) running stories about aliens, haunted houses and 2012.
:crankey:
Fuck. Now I'm all full of rage.
AND that is one reason why I don't pay for cable television...
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 18, 2009, 05:16:14 PM
Without returning to pre-Industrial standards, it seems we have few options.... over time, we can hope that we adapt to these uneventful lives somehow... OR, we need to find something useful/constructive/interesting to replace mindless entertainment.
Or we need to reframe the way people see what's put in front of them.
[/quote]
Maybe, I think it depends on the cause/effect direction... Are people tuning into crap because they are tricked by the television producers... or are the producers making "Flava of Love (and Taint)", "Jon and Kate plus Hate" and "Keeping Up with the Dumbass Rich Bitches" because thats what the monkeys WANT?
Some neurologists get really excited about 'mirror neurons'. They've observed them in some primates and believe that humans have them as well... basically these neurons fire if the animal acts, OR if they observe the action... So the monkey that gets the banana and the mmonkey that sees a monkey get a banana have similar experiences in their mirror neuron. IF humans have them, and IF humans aren't actually going out and HAVING experiences, then watching them on TV would fire off those mirror neurons and allow the humans to vicariously live through Bear Grilled, Mike Rowe, the Mythbusters... and Glenn Beck.
Or not, I dunno...
you make a good point.
I don't have cable anymore, but when I did, I watched a lot of fox news. Because fox news is the one thing on TV which reliably gives me an emotional reaction. I can nod along with Wolf Blitzer, or I can stand up and scream at Bill O'Reilley. I think that's ultimately why we watch TV, because it is emotionally engaging.
Perhaps the draw to that type of stimulation comes from the blandness which pervades everyday life. The machinations of culture insulate u from turbulence. We are seldom reminded of our mortality, our free will, our vast untapped potential as a human being charged with kinetic energy.
I do think it's why people go to concerts and rallies and festivals - so they can have some of that real, raw emotion, the unfiltered experience which everyday life used to consist of.
To come at this from another angle - if we're looking to nudge people away from the glowing box, what are we nudging them towards? How should people be spending their time? The immediate answer: "however the fuck they want to" is problematic on two counts: 1) they are already doing that and 2) if not handed a better alternative, few people will have the initiative to think for themselves and invent their own new pastimes.
Look at how green/environmental issues have swept through the populace. Why not create our own movement of that nature? Say we nudge people in the direction of, I dunno, spending more time doing things for their local community.. then you seed memes like every hour spent watching TV is an hour spent actively harming your local community. Much like every can or bottle you don't recycle, is a butt-rape to mother earth. It's also a little bit harder to uphold the paranoia that your smudgy neighbours are evil job-stealing socialist terrorists when you actually know them by name.
Actually, that has the benefit that it might get the support of both fundamentalists and hippy-liberals alike, but there are probably better ideas.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 18, 2009, 05:44:47 PM
you make a good point.
I don't have cable anymore, but when I did, I watched a lot of fox news. Because fox news is the one thing on TV which reliably gives me an emotional reaction. I can nod along with Wolf Blitzer, or I can stand up and scream at Bill O'Reilley. I think that's ultimately why we watch TV, because it is emotionally engaging.
Perhaps the draw to that type of stimulation comes from the blandness which pervades everyday life. The machinations of culture insulate u from turbulence. We are seldom reminded of our mortality, our free will, our vast untapped potential as a human being charged with kinetic energy.
I do think it's why people go to concerts and rallies and festivals - so they can have some of that real, raw emotion, the unfiltered experience which everyday life used to consist of.
I agree 100%...
So maybe the answer is in life no longer being so bland... but how do you do that in a positive way? I mean, all out anarchy would solve the problem of a bland life... but that doesn't seem like it would solve it in a positive way.
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 18, 2009, 05:35:10 PM
Maybe, I think it depends on the cause/effect direction... Are people tuning into crap because they are tricked by the television producers... or are the producers making "Flava of Love (and Taint)", "Jon and Kate plus Hate" and "Keeping Up with the Dumbass Rich Bitches" because thats what the monkeys WANT?
In the 70s, producers worried about what the public wanted. They still had some stinkers, but there wasn't much competition.
In the 80s, producers had figured out the formula to make a cookie cutter hit (mostly sitcoms).
In the 90s, producers figured out (via MTV) how to take crap and make it popular by CALLING it popular. TRL was the ultimate expression of this. Show just a little clip, interspiced with brainless twats gushing about how great it is, and the shit flies off the shelves.
In the 2000s, they put this into full effect with the introduction of "reality" TV, which nobody would have watched otherwise...it's basically "Battle of the Network Stars" without the stars. Ugh. That just made me remember John Ritter in a spandex swimming suit.
:vom:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2009, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on November 18, 2009, 05:35:10 PM
Maybe, I think it depends on the cause/effect direction... Are people tuning into crap because they are tricked by the television producers... or are the producers making "Flava of Love (and Taint)", "Jon and Kate plus Hate" and "Keeping Up with the Dumbass Rich Bitches" because thats what the monkeys WANT?
In the 70s, producers worried about what the public wanted. They still had some stinkers, but there wasn't much competition.
In the 80s, producers had figured out the formula to make a cookie cutter hit (mostly sitcoms).
In the 90s, producers figured out (via MTV) how to take crap and make it popular by CALLING it popular. TRL was the ultimate expression of this. Show just a little clip, interspiced with brainless twats gushing about how great it is, and the shit flies off the shelves.
In the 2000s, they put this into full effect with the introduction of "reality" TV, which nobody would have watched otherwise...it's basically "Battle of the Network Stars" without the stars. Ugh. That just made me remember John Ritter in a spandex swimming suit.
:vom:
Well, here's an alternative to television to keep the monkey entertained:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/france/centralfrance/6589449/French-hamster-hotel-lets-guests-live-like-rodents.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/france/centralfrance/6589449/French-hamster-hotel-lets-guests-live-like-rodents.html)
:horrormirth:
I like the last bit especially...
Just saw that in DC's post.
Quote from: http://www.shirky.com/herecomeseverybody/2008/04/looking-for-the-mouse.html
I was recently reminded of some reading I did in college, way back in the last century, by a British historian arguing that the critical technology, for the early phase of the industrial revolution, was gin.
The transformation from rural to urban life was so sudden, and so wrenching, that the only thing society could do to manage was to drink itself into a stupor for a generation. The stories from that era are amazing-- there were gin pushcarts working their way through the streets of London.
And it wasn't until society woke up from that collective bender that we actually started to get the institutional structures that we associate with the industrial revolution today. Things like public libraries and museums, increasingly broad education for children, elected leaders--a lot of things we like--didn't happen until having all of those people together stopped seeming like a crisis and started seeming like an asset.
It wasn't until people started thinking of this as a vast civic surplus, one they could design for rather than just dissipate, that we started to get what we think of now as an industrial society.
If I had to pick the critical technology for the 20th century, the bit of social lubricant without which the wheels would've come off the whole enterprise, I'd say it was the sitcom. Starting with the Second World War a whole series of things happened--rising GDP per capita, rising educational attainment, rising life expectancy and, critically, a rising number of people who were working five-day work weeks. For the first time, society forced onto an enormous number of its citizens the requirement to manage something they had never had to manage before--free time.
And what did we do with that free time? Well, mostly we spent it watching TV.
...
Full text (http://www.shirky.com/herecomeseverybody/2008/04/looking-for-the-mouse.html) and video (http://blip.tv/file/855937/).
It basically makes a compelling case that TV as we know it is in decline, and once we stumble upon one of the ways to harness that wasted energy, large irrevocable changes will occur. Such that when historians look back they'll say:
"The stories from that era are amazing-- people spent upwards of a third of their entire lives passively sitting in front of a glowing box"
Quote from: FP on November 18, 2009, 07:57:31 PM
Such that when historians look back they'll say: "The stories from that era are amazing-- people spent upwards of a third of their entire lives passively sitting in front of a glowing box"
Actually, they'll probably say things like "Stay away from the ruins of the old ones. They're haunted."
that was an interesting read - thanks, FP
Another avenue of attack might be the Neilson Ratings System - basically the thing which determines what shows live or die on US TV. I started doing some research into this last year, and it is as corrupt and worthless as you could expect given the stakes - millions of dollars move in response to a single decimal place in a rating. I looked into one story at the time - Neilson themselves, for no reason given their remit, had created a story around how one US presidential candidate was doing significantly better than the other based upon some figures for the respective conventions, or somesuch. But upon further examination, the deltas were small and well within Neilsons own stated margin of error.
In other words there was nothing statistically significant there, yet they chose to misconstrue it and make a political claim out of it anyway - presumably towards their own gain.
The point is, I think that there's enough real dirt and corruption there, such that it could provide a useful foundation for something more directed: "Liberals! Neilson is funded by adverts and thus selectively promotes shows which encourage mass consumption and degradation of the environment", "Conservatives! Neilson is in league with Obama to make sure as many programs as possible contain a hidden left-wing bias". Or something better - it is a shadowy secretive organisation which holds so many puppet strings that all paranoia can be justified.
there was a one-line meme bomb popular around here for a while which went like:
While you were playing Warcraft, we were saving lives.
I like this, although it does come with a kind of heavy moral pronouncement.
in the end, the rhetoric of resistance is kind of effete if all it does is comment on what it tries to defeat.
You can't just craft a meme which is a variation of "TV is bad"... I think it takes a multi-prong approach which includes rebranding TV (ie - associating TV watching with something else) and offering alternatives.
Compare/contrast - RWHN's program to prevent kids from getting into drugs focuses on encouraging them to seek out natural highs.
Quote from: FP on November 18, 2009, 09:12:06 PM
Another avenue of attack might be the Neilson Ratings System - basically the thing which determines what shows live or die on US TV. I started doing some research into this last year, and it is as corrupt and worthless as you could expect given the stakes - millions of dollars move in response to a single decimal place in a rating. I looked into one story at the time - Neilson themselves, for no reason given their remit, had created a story around how one US presidential candidate was doing significantly better than the other based upon some figures for the respective conventions, or somesuch. But upon further examination, the deltas were small and well within Neilsons own stated margin of error.
In other words there was nothing statistically significant there, yet they chose to misconstrue it and make a political claim out of it anyway - presumably towards their own gain.
The point is, I think that there's enough real dirt and corruption there, such that it could provide a useful foundation for something more directed: "Liberals! Neilson is funded by adverts and thus selectively promotes shows which encourage mass consumption and degradation of the environment", "Conservatives! Neilson is in league with Obama to make sure as many programs as possible contain a hidden left-wing bias". Or something better - it is a shadowy secretive organisation which holds so many puppet strings that all paranoia can be justified.
FP, this might be the best, most concrete idea yet. I'm gonna do some chewing on this, but if you can refine it a bit, I think we should move on it.
I'm a dirty little girl, and as such I have no problem pretending to be a neocon
with a straight face.
ETA: By "refine", I mean get us some links, etc, if you can, and perhaps an idea for a plan of attack.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 18, 2009, 09:18:36 PM
there was a one-line meme bomb popular around here for a while which went like:
While you were playing Warcraft, we were saving lives.
I like this, although it does come with a kind of heavy moral pronouncement.
in the end, the rhetoric of resistance is kind of effete if all it does is comment on what it tries to defeat.
You can't just craft a meme which is a variation of "TV is bad"... I think it takes a multi-prong approach which includes rebranding TV (ie - associating TV watching with something else) and offering alternatives.
Compare/contrast - RWHN's program to prevent kids from getting into drugs focuses on encouraging them to seek out natural highs.
Natural Entertainment?
The problem with that... is that TV and Playstation and XBox and Broadband are just so much easier than natural entertainment.
I have a group of friends right now who spend 4 hours a night playing Rock Band. Not a single one of them actually plays an instrument though. Rock Band is easy, actually learning to play is not as easy.
I have friends that spend hours on that stupid gardening game, and they have no idea how to actually plant food or ever bother to garden... the game is easy, the real thing is hard.
What can we replace television and electronic entertainment with that is equally accessible?
I drive to a State Park and hike once or twice a month... most of my friends don't, because it involves an hour drive, several hours "just walking in the woods" when they have so many other things that they could be doing... like WoW and Rock Band.
It's a sticky fly paper trap and all the flies look like they're dancing.
well I don't think it's possible to come up with an activity which is both more entertaining and accessible than video.
But the phrase "If you're bored, your boring", all by itself, has done a lot to keep me off the couch.
If we go the one-line meme bomb route...
Your friends aren't on prime time.
Real humor doesn't need a laugh track.
What would this world be like if we spent as much time entertaining as we do being entertained?
edit:typo
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2009, 09:21:19 PM
FP, this might be the best, most concrete idea yet. I'm gonna do some chewing on this, but if you can refine it a bit, I think we should move on it.
I'm a dirty little girl, and as such I have no problem pretending to be a neocon with a straight face.
ETA: By "refine", I mean get us some links, etc, if you can, and perhaps an idea for a plan of attack.
I don't have too much in the way of links as I didn't keep my notes and got bored when I realised that no one would read it in my LJ anyway. My Google web history has these from that period though - they basically just cover problems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nielsen_Ratings#Criticism_of_ratings_systems) with the collection methods (http://cornellsun.com/node/23180) and a little bit on margin of error and potential corruption (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/08/opinion/08pubed.html?ex=1333771200&en=311f32bb789681ae&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink).
Either way, I think it would would better as one line of attack in a broader strategy, as it doesn't have much "impact" by itself. I think I can work it into the "TV is killing your local community/environment/congregation" idea (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=22994.msg781129#msg781129), though it'll take a day or two.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 18, 2009, 09:34:14 PM
well I don't think it's possible to come up with an activity which is both more entertaining and accessible than video.
I think you may be right on the accessible part, but more entertaining I think is easy.
In my opinion people have forgotten that contentment =/= enjoyment.
Also, I seem to remember hearing somewhere that 9 months after massive state/city wide blackouts the birthrate spikes. Anyone else hear something similar?Wait nevermind, just checked snopes.
Quote from: Rumckle on November 18, 2009, 10:33:55 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 18, 2009, 09:34:14 PM
well I don't think it's possible to come up with an activity which is both more entertaining and accessible than video.
I think you may be right on the accessible part, but more entertaining I think is easy.
In my opinion people have forgotten that contentment =/= enjoyment.
TV has something for almost everyone -- finding something which is as widely entertaining/accessible for everyone is not a trivial task - getting everyone to turn off their tvs at the same time might be an unattainable holy grail?
If you target a particular demographic though it might be easier - e.g. folk in their 20s in a city might get more of a kick out of something like larpgasm, than a retiree who might be more susceptible to community bingo nights. Or something.
i don't watch much TV. most people i know don't watch much TV. is it possible that the TV is only telling us that everyone watches TV
all the time in an attempt to convince us that watching more TV is the right thing to do?
Quote from: emo philips
I used to think the brain was the most amazing organ in my body. But then i thought, look who's telling me that.
Quote from: rong on November 19, 2009, 12:20:09 AM
i don't watch much TV. most people i know don't watch much TV. is it possible that the TV is only telling us that everyone watches TV all the time in an attempt to convince us that watching more TV is the right thing to do?
Quote from: emo philips
I used to think the brain was the most amazing organ in my body. But then i thought, look who's telling me that.
You must know different sorts of people from the ones I know. I watch maybe 4 hours of TV per month, but everyone I know whose TV habits I am aware of has a set of shows that they follow regularly and watches upwards of 15 hours of TV per week. In my house, if there is someone besides me who is home and awake, then there's at least one running TV somewhere in the house.
Quote from: FP on November 18, 2009, 05:46:14 PM
To come at this from another angle - if we're looking to nudge people away from the glowing box, what are we nudging them towards? How should people be spending their time?
I got a thought related to that, also related to the "bored monkey" that was mentioned before ITT.
Last week, I shut myself off from the Internet. I didn't follow through long enough and will have to repeat the exercise, but I did notice some things.
I got bored.
But in a good way.
I really never should have to get really bored, my mind is so chockfull of crazy ideas, I have at least 10 lifetimes worth of them to carry them out.
No, I got bored for a very short while, instead of clicking the next link, surfing to the next blog (or changing the channel I guess if you watch TV), I found that both books and (downloaded) TV series have an end to them, not just the real end, but also in attention span. Sure I can fire up the next episode, but I usually don't manage to watch more than two eps of a series before I want something new.
Online, there is always something new.
So anyway, these fleeting moments of boredom, really lasted only a few minutes, I got up and did other stuff, the crazy ideas I had been having got a step closer to being worked out, and all that. (Also, the laundry got done and such things, but yeah)
So the answer to your question, what do you replace TV with, is IMO, DO NOT REPLACE IT WITH ANYTHING
Let the monkeys experience that emptiness for a little while and wonder "hey, what am I going to do next?", I bet the most wonderful (and horrible) things will come from that.
Unfortunately, it turns out that the truly bored monkey can also turn into a vandalizing destructive monkey, instead of a creative monkey.
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 19, 2009, 07:19:18 PM
Quote from: FP on November 18, 2009, 05:46:14 PM
To come at this from another angle - if we're looking to nudge people away from the glowing box, what are we nudging them towards? How should people be spending their time?
I got a thought related to that, also related to the "bored monkey" that was mentioned before ITT.
Last week, I shut myself off from the Internet. I didn't follow through long enough and will have to repeat the exercise, but I did notice some things.
I got bored.
But in a good way.
I really never should have to get really bored, my mind is so chockfull of crazy ideas, I have at least 10 lifetimes worth of them to carry them out.
No, I got bored for a very short while, instead of clicking the next link, surfing to the next blog (or changing the channel I guess if you watch TV), I found that both books and (downloaded) TV series have an end to them, not just the real end, but also in attention span. Sure I can fire up the next episode, but I usually don't manage to watch more than two eps of a series before I want something new.
Online, there is always something new.
So anyway, these fleeting moments of boredom, really lasted only a few minutes, I got up and did other stuff, the crazy ideas I had been having got a step closer to being worked out, and all that. (Also, the laundry got done and such things, but yeah)
So the answer to your question, what do you replace TV with, is IMO, DO NOT REPLACE IT WITH ANYTHING
Let the monkeys experience that emptiness for a little while and wonder "hey, what am I going to do next?", I bet the most wonderful (and horrible) things will come from that.
Unfortunately, it turns out that the truly bored monkey can also turn into a vandalizing destructive monkey, instead of a creative monkey.
:mittens:
It sounds like an interesting and worthy experiment. Certainly days when I refuse to run firefox are amongst my most productive.
But other than forcibly preventing people from watching TV, I don't see any incentive which would make them change their habits voluntarily.
Quote from: FP on November 19, 2009, 07:40:16 PM
It sounds like an interesting and worthy experiment. Certainly days when I refuse to run firefox are amongst my most productive.
But other than forcibly preventing people from watching TV, I don't see any incentive which would make them change their habits voluntarily.
Well, we should just make it illegal and have a TV Czar to spend billions on jailing people for having a TiVo (paraphernalia, you know...)
I might have some ideas on operationalisation of parts of this.
With any luck I'll get something down on paper (or, alternatively, MS Word) this weekend. Maybe. Soon, anyway.
You know, I suddenly had a brief moment of inspiration about what to do about getting people off their couch, atleast for a little while.
Does anyone remember that retarded ass craptacular show on the History channel, it was something like The Experiment or something? It was where these people were put in an abandoned area of California and were filmed as they tried to survive in a 'post apocalyptic' society, where they had to forage and find safety and shelter and things.
Well, I had a thought. What do people like to do? Imitate the things they see. And there were people on their TVs who were attempting to eke out an existence that didn't involve a couch, or a TV or the internet. If we took this idea, and added in a bit of LARPery, organize events often enough, and told them that this sort of thing is very fun indeed, you should try it too, or you're not like us, and if you're not like us, you're like THEM, who knows what might happen?
Edit: I should probably say that the reason I think it would work is because I AM a sheep, and it would work on me cuz it's about emulating something already been done on TV, and I don't want to be one of THEM, and would probably never ask who they are.
Quote from: Mistress Freeky on November 20, 2009, 04:18:43 PM
Edit: I should probably say that the reason I think it would work is because I AM a sheep, and it would work on me cuz it's about emulating something already been done on TV, and I don't want to be one of THEM, and would probably never ask who they are.
They are the ones that own and operate the dark satanic mills that manufacture hell on Earth. They are the pill-pushers, the demagogues that call themselves journalists, the mean cop, the office Nazi, the neighbor that leaves your party early so they can call the police about the noise. They are Freedom™. They are terrorists under the bed, hair-shirt punishment freaks, the occupants of the "amen pew", the jackass that didn't let you into traffic on purpose, the gun-grabbers, the ones who do it "for the children", the soccer mom who screams for us to drop bombs on someone else's kids.
Who are we?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 20, 2009, 05:45:08 PM
They are the ones that own and operate the dark satanic mills that manufacture hell on Earth. They are the pill-pushers, the demagogues that call themselves journalists, the mean cop, the office Nazi, the neighbor that leaves your party early so they can call the police about the noise. They are Freedom™. They are terrorists under the bed, hair-shirt punishment freaks, the occupants of the "amen pew", the jackass that didn't let you into traffic on purpose, the gun-grabbers, the ones who do it "for the children", the soccer mom who screams for us to drop bombs on someone else's kids.
Who are we?
Sheep don't ask that question either, as long as the 'we' in question don't seem like they want to uproot 'normalcy' and routine.
I, however, speculate that 'we' as in the people on this board could be the equivalent of a group of wolves that are planning an attack on the shepard. Maybe. But then, I'm just a sheep who's stumbled into the crowd here, so I can't say for certain.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 20, 2009, 05:45:08 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky on November 20, 2009, 04:18:43 PM
Edit: I should probably say that the reason I think it would work is because I AM a sheep, and it would work on me cuz it's about emulating something already been done on TV, and I don't want to be one of THEM, and would probably never ask who they are.
They are the ones that own and operate the dark satanic mills that manufacture hell on Earth. They are the pill-pushers, the demagogues that call themselves journalists, the mean cop, the office Nazi, the neighbor that leaves your party early so they can call the police about the noise. They are Freedom™. They are terrorists under the bed, hair-shirt punishment freaks, the occupants of the "amen pew", the jackass that didn't let you into traffic on purpose, the gun-grabbers, the ones who do it "for the children", the soccer mom who screams for us to drop bombs on someone else's kids.
Who are we?
We're the control people. The In Charge people. The people who put Ends before Means. The Living Large, Taking Charge people. The people who invented phrases like "acceptable losses". "Collateral damage". "Mutually assured destruction". We're the requirement people. We're the sorting process. The ladder. We're the big hen who pecks the smaller hen. We're the smaller hen, looking for something to peck. We're the Conditional Charity people. The Regulatory people. The Authority™ people.
Who are we?
Quote from: LMNO on November 20, 2009, 06:05:47 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 20, 2009, 05:45:08 PM
Quote from: Mistress Freeky on November 20, 2009, 04:18:43 PM
Edit: I should probably say that the reason I think it would work is because I AM a sheep, and it would work on me cuz it's about emulating something already been done on TV, and I don't want to be one of THEM, and would probably never ask who they are.
They are the ones that own and operate the dark satanic mills that manufacture hell on Earth. They are the pill-pushers, the demagogues that call themselves journalists, the mean cop, the office Nazi, the neighbor that leaves your party early so they can call the police about the noise. They are Freedom™. They are terrorists under the bed, hair-shirt punishment freaks, the occupants of the "amen pew", the jackass that didn't let you into traffic on purpose, the gun-grabbers, the ones who do it "for the children", the soccer mom who screams for us to drop bombs on someone else's kids.
Who are we?
We're the control people. The In Charge people. The people who put Ends before Means. The Living Large, Taking Charge people. The people who invented phrases like "acceptable losses". "Collateral damage". "Mutually assured destruction". We're the requirement people. We're the sorting process. The ladder. We're the big hen who pecks the smaller hen. We're the smaller hen, looking for something to peck. We're the Conditional Charity people. The Regulatory people. The Authority™ people.
Who are we?
We're the snarling bumper-to-bumper dog men who honk our horns in traffic jams. We're the fat guy on a plane berating a young mother for her crying infant. We're the jackass who puts his seat right back into your lap. We're the crooked sheriff, the bent politician, the smarmy bureaucrat that smiles when he says "no". We're your neighbors, your school teachers, your bus driver.
Who are we?
We're the Satisfied people. The content people. The people who see no need to go into the streets, because the couch is so comfortable. We're the receptive people, the observers. The people who believe what our parents, our teachers, our politicians, our priests tell us. We're the people who do what we're told. Who hate what we're told to hate. We're the single-file people. The sit up straight people. The status quo people.
Who are we?
We're the people that like to write words. We're the people that like to think a post on a forum replaces action and supporting your troops in blog comments makes you a Real American. We're the people that have abandoned the community we live in, with their different opinions, different habits, different beliefs and we've replaced it with a virtual community that is virtually us. They agree with our views and they believe in our beliefs and they support our heroes and hate our enemies. We're the future, the future of everything. Our laws WILL pass (everyone I know already supports it!), our beliefs will prevail (I haven't talked to a person in months that disagrees with that!!), our Truth is the Truth and that other virtual community over there that disagrees are virtually imbeciles.
Who are we?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2009, 04:51:48 PMI have an idea, something similar to Safaris, with a touch of HIMEOBS, that might be worth using as a test bed. While the internet might not be the same as IRL efforts, it makes a great sounding board. Lemme think this through and propose it.
Have you ever read FM-3-24? That's the Petraeus-Amos counterinsurgency guide. As I'm sure you're aware, COIN is just insurgency with a bigger budget and on the other side since, as the manual and several others (Mao etc) make quite clear, insurgency is about cultivating relationships.
So, does the insurgency model fit us? I think it can. We are a small, but tight-knit group with high morale, generally speaking, and a taste for unconventional methods. Our "enemies", for want of a better term, are large and monolithic, with a taste for the conventional.
Therefore, we could pick up a few tips from this bit of military theory. As you might know, the USA in Iraq approached former enemies with open hands, offering them not only protection, but also goods in return for cooperation. Whether or not it worked in the long run is immaterial, it worked in the immediate, probably because it is very similar to the method of organisation the Mafia uses (based around primarily protection and secondly on access to goods - acting as middle men and go-betweens).
John Robb has a very interesting series of posts he called "Insurgency Standing Orders" on his global guerrillas blog, of how to create an open-source insurgency and keep it working. I can link to them in full, but I will summarize below:
1. Break enemy networks (keep vital networks, such as communication working).
2. Generate black economies.
3. Virtualize your organization (assemble groups for specific jobs, then disband them).
4. Repitition is more important than scale
5. Cooperate, don't compete. Do this by basing both groups on common platforms that reduce costs.
6. Don't fork the insurgency
7. Minimalist rulesets work best
8. Self-replicate, both technologically and through social engineering
9. Share or copy everything that works
10. Innovations should be released early and often. Doesn't matter if it doesn't work, hopefully someone else can figure it out.
11. Don't supply basic services out of your own pocket - free ride on those provided by others.
Some don't apply to us that much, but others obviously have more of an impact.
The basic idea is that we infiltrate a site, maybe somewhat openly, maybe not depending on local hostility...we do our little song and dance, we show off a bit, prove we can be "good posters" by following the rules and providing content....but we leave a few people behind to cultivate the relationship. Say someone on the site mentions they are doing research. One of the left-behinds can contact me, I can direct them to free downloads of useful e-books, they can take them back, and then offer them up to the person. We create good will, while all the time steadily but subtly working the site so that they understand where we are coming from, what we think is fucked up and how, if at all, we can go about solving it.
Sound like the bare bones of plan?
Cain, that's amazing. Let me re-read it when my head is a little clearer, though.
No problem. Of course, some aspects of the insurgency model don't apply per se, because we're not looking to insurge against the sites we'll be going to.
But, well, its like...I was reading somewhere, I can't remember where now, that one of the reasons Al-Qaeda did so well in Warizistan and Afghanistan was because it was there for a long time, it acted as go-between via the small, isolated communities and the outer world, it bought guns bitches bling and more bling, and often intermarried its members among leaders of tribal groups.
Equally, in Anbar Province in Iraq, American Marines approached former Sunni insurgents and tribal leaders who were being targeted by Al-Qaeda in Iraq. They offered protection (serious protection - one tribal leader had an embedded tank by his house, frequent helicoptor patrols and an UAV watching his place to prevent attacks) provided medicine, access to arms etc
So that's one half. Building the relationship. Protecting a site from its enemies (if it has any), getting involved, mucking in and helping people out. It's not so much about calling in debts at a later date as creating the feeling of gratitude and wishing to return the favour. It shouldn't be explicit.
Then comes the second half. Once we have several of these going on, and we've explained a little about what we think, what worries us etc and start a few discussions about how to possibly deal with it, we try to structure the discussion in such a way that we get as many people involved as possible. Little groups can split off and experiment, etc etc it might even be possible to link all several groups together and make them aware of each other's existence, especially if they're in roughly the same position (thanks to our own social engineering).
If that makes sense.
I might try and write up an imaginary case study, to make it more explicit. Later though.
That might be tricky in a troll sort of situation though...
Most sites would see us as Al-Queda rather than COIN I think. As such we would need to win hearts and minds, rather than jetting dirt in their faces. I'll be interested to see how your case study lays this out!! :)
Well that's the thing. I have been considering it might just be easier for us to scout a place, have one of us roll up, get them established and then have them ask if anyone minded if they invited a couple of friends, since they thought they might like the place.
It's something to discuss, anyway. And we certainly have enough people to split us in two and try the more low-key approach on one series of sites, and the more spectacular one on another, and see how it works or why it fails, both contextually and overall.
I'm liking this energy--
it sounds like a more effective take on "project infiltration"
can we crystalize the goal a little bit? The idea here, as I'm reading it, isn't to directly undermine anybody or anything. It would be really hard to buck the dominant paradigm (of anything) through forum posts alone. It sounds like the goal here is to create or strengthen a subversive network. Which might be of use later?
Quote from: Cain on November 23, 2009, 08:23:47 PM
Well that's the thing. I have been considering it might just be easier for us to scout a place, have one of us roll up, get them established and then have them ask if anyone minded if they invited a couple of friends, since they thought they might like the place.
It's something to discuss, anyway. And we certainly have enough people to split us in two and try the more low-key approach on one series of sites, and the more spectacular one on another, and see how it works or why it fails, both contextually and overall.
I like this a lot.
Wonderful. So, what would be the end purpose of this network?
Quote from: Cramulus on November 23, 2009, 08:27:01 PM
It sounds like the goal here is to create or strengthen a subversive network. Which might be of use later?
That's it, pretty much. Create a network and create mutually beneficial relationships, get a discussion going about possible solutions...and let things go from there. The aim would be to try and get across, say, some of the worldview of this place to groups receptive to it (at least, until we get better at it) and, if they agree with our basic criticisms, see what ideas they come up with.
The actual work would likely take place IRL, of course. But part of kicking that off involves creating the subversive bazaar online first.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 23, 2009, 08:32:55 PM
Wonderful. So, what would be the end purpose of this network?
Did you even read the thread?
Wait a second. Oh. My bad. Missed that part. Okay then, I retract the question.
Please, gentlemen, no fighting. This is, after all, a council of war.
This seems to go hand in hand with this project idea we've been kicking around for a while. I don't want to go too far in depth for risk of threadjack -- but the idea is:
We have all these resources here at PD. Literally hundreds of pages of great content, fresh ideas, incredible energy. The problem is that it's contained in forum threads. This makes the data somewhat arcane.
The trick, I think, is to make it accessible to the "newcomer" to Discord. How to operationalize our content for outsiders.
Even if we are totally lazy,
even if we scare off every newbie that registers at PD,
even if most of us throw in the towel and quit discord forever,
some newbie should be able to browse through an article archive and pick up where we left off.
I mean, nothing we develop seems to need central leadership. We are all about the decentralized revolution. So we need to give these tools to people so they can begin their own branches of it.
After 23ae relaunches, I'd like to start putting together a "best of the PD forums" collection which we can repost.
This will take a lot of work because it will involve rewriting a lot of stuff to look like articles, rather than forum conversations.
But a resource like that would be ideal fertilizer for a subversive network. There is such a spectrum of interests here at PD, I'm sure we could attract any subversive personality by linking them to the proper riff.
The difficulty is in operationalizing our data, moving it to another platform. Is it possible? Is it worth the effort?
Quote from: Cain on November 23, 2009, 08:46:09 PM
Please, gentlemen, no fighting. This is, after all, a council of war.
Heh.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 23, 2009, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 23, 2009, 08:46:09 PM
Please, gentlemen, no fighting. This is, after all, a council of war.
Heh.
I've always wanted to use that line in context. I had to take my chance, for it may never come again.
Cram, that does sound like a good idea because, not just on it's own merits but because once we have those discussions compressed and reformatted, they become re-usable on other sites as well, not just 23ae. That comes back to replication, as mentioned before.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 23, 2009, 08:48:24 PM
This seems to go hand in hand with this project idea we've been kicking around for a while. I don't want to go too far in depth for risk of threadjack -- but the idea is:
We have all these resources here at PD. Literally hundreds of pages of great content, fresh ideas, incredible energy. The problem is that it's contained in forum threads. This makes the data somewhat arcane.
The trick, I think, is to make it accessible to the "newcomer" to Discord. How to operationalize our content for outsiders.
Even if we are totally lazy,
even if we scare off every newbie that registers at PD,
even if most of us throw in the towel and quit discord forever,
some newbie should be able to browse through an article archive and pick up where we left off.
I mean, nothing we develop seems to need central leadership. We are all about the decentralized revolution. So we need to give these tools to people so they can begin their own branches of it.
After 23ae relaunches, I'd like to start putting together a "best of the PD forums" collection which we can repost.
This will take a lot of work because it will involve rewriting a lot of stuff to look like articles, rather than forum conversations.
But a resource like that would be ideal fertilizer for a subversive network. There is such a spectrum of interests here at PD, I'm sure we could attract any subversive personality by linking them to the proper riff.
The difficulty is in operationalizing our data, moving it to another platform. Is it possible? Is it worth the effort?
Everything here is text in a database somewhere. Manipulating it is possible, its just a matter of determining what's worth manipulating and modifying. I think some of the early Intermittens stuff seemed to be a good first stab at the concept. Maybe a different Magazine "PD Archives" or something would be an appropriate vehicle for it?
I'd certainly be up for helping compile PD's creative content.
It'd be valuable for the infiltration project, but I think with a couple tweaks it could also produce some great volumes of Discordian thought (ala Principia Discordia or Black Iron Prison). It would also be an awesome resource for posterGASMs, new Discordians, any pretty much everyone else. I'll think on the subject a bit more, and post a thread in Think for Yourself to start collecting/categorizing stuff.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 23, 2009, 08:48:24 PM
We have all these resources here at PD. Literally hundreds of pages of great content, fresh ideas, incredible energy. The problem is that it's contained in forum threads. This makes the data somewhat arcane.
some newbie should be able to browse through an article archive and pick up where we left off.
I mean, nothing we develop seems to need central leadership. We are all about the decentralized revolution. So we need to give these tools to people so they can begin their own branches of it.
After 23ae relaunches, I'd like to start putting together a "best of the PD forums" collection which we can repost.
This will take a lot of work because it will involve rewriting a lot of stuff to look like articles, rather than forum conversations.
But a resource like that would be ideal fertilizer for a subversive network. There is such a spectrum of interests here at PD, I'm sure we could attract any subversive personality by linking them to the proper riff.
The difficulty is in operationalizing our data, moving it to another platform. Is it possible? Is it worth the effort?
Yes. I
really need to find a post-tagging plugin for SMF, that would be a great start. And if there isn't one I might have to write one myself (it's not
that hard, and worth the effort IMO).
Quote from: Cramulus on November 23, 2009, 08:48:24 PM
This seems to go hand in hand with this project idea we've been kicking around for a while. I don't want to go too far in depth for risk of threadjack -- but the idea is:
We have all these resources here at PD. Literally hundreds of pages of great content, fresh ideas, incredible energy. The problem is that it's contained in forum threads. This makes the data somewhat arcane.
The trick, I think, is to make it accessible to the "newcomer" to Discord. How to operationalize our content for outsiders.
Even if we are totally lazy,
even if we scare off every newbie that registers at PD,
even if most of us throw in the towel and quit discord forever,
some newbie should be able to browse through an article archive and pick up where we left off.
I mean, nothing we develop seems to need central leadership. We are all about the decentralized revolution. So we need to give these tools to people so they can begin their own branches of it.
After 23ae relaunches, I'd like to start putting together a "best of the PD forums" collection which we can repost.
This will take a lot of work because it will involve rewriting a lot of stuff to look like articles, rather than forum conversations.
But a resource like that would be ideal fertilizer for a subversive network. There is such a spectrum of interests here at PD, I'm sure we could attract any subversive personality by linking them to the proper riff.
The difficulty is in operationalizing our data, moving it to another platform. Is it possible? Is it worth the effort?
The EncycloPDia Project.
I like it. It sounds like one helluva labor though.
Link to a new thread?
Quote from: Cain on November 23, 2009, 08:34:37 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 23, 2009, 08:27:01 PM
It sounds like the goal here is to create or strengthen a subversive network. Which might be of use later?
That's it, pretty much. Create a network and create mutually beneficial relationships, get a discussion going about possible solutions...and let things go from there. The aim would be to try and get across, say, some of the worldview of this place to groups receptive to it (at least, until we get better at it) and, if they agree with our basic criticisms, see what ideas they come up with.
The actual work would likely take place IRL, of course. But part of kicking that off involves creating the subversive bazaar online first.
I was thinking about the momentum that built up a while ago in this vein. A general effort to expand the network to the benefit of everyone involved.
My estimation of why that failed was that the very real possibility of the community shifting its social dynamics to that of a large group caused concerns about a sudden undesireable shift in the Zeitgeist of the forum and turning into an "organization" (OMG).
I could be totally off base here, but isn't this a hurdle that would need to be overcome, considering how many people may have a strong interest in maintaining the status quo?
Do you see Cram's EncycloPDia as an example of the "subversive bazaar"?
Here is the beginning:
Best Of PD (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=23073.msg783783#msg783783)
Bump for editing.
:mittens:
Alright, now I'm pissed off at the world once again.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on February 22, 2011, 01:11:32 AM
:mittens:
Alright, now I'm pissed off at the world once again.
Get me started on Thomas Paine. I dare ya. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2011, 01:17:56 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on February 22, 2011, 01:11:32 AM
:mittens:
Alright, now I'm pissed off at the world once again.
Get me started on Thomas Paine. I dare ya. :lulz:
Unnecessary. I had temporarily forgotten why I hated humanity, because I had a long run of human decency. Spending the better part of my afternoon sitting in the lobby of a law firm while the absolute least violent person I know hired a defense attorney, this rant, and a couple other threads today reminded me why I am a twitching ball of hate.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on February 22, 2011, 01:34:47 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2011, 01:17:56 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on February 22, 2011, 01:11:32 AM
:mittens:
Alright, now I'm pissed off at the world once again.
Get me started on Thomas Paine. I dare ya. :lulz:
Unnecessary. I had temporarily forgotten why I hated humanity, because I had a long run of human decency. Spending the better part of my afternoon sitting in the lobby of a law firm while the absolute least violent person I know hired a defense attorney, this rant, and a couple other threads today reminded me why I am a twitching ball of hate.
We here at the First Tucsonan Church of the Wrath of Baby Jesus and Ribshack
TM can improve upon that.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2011, 01:40:05 AM
We here at the First Tucsonan Church of the Wrath of Baby Jesus and RibshackTM can improve upon that.
Then preach it, Reverend. Phox is ready to torch the place, paint herself with the ashes, and merrily dance off into the night. Let's improve that.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on February 22, 2011, 01:47:26 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2011, 01:40:05 AM
We here at the First Tucsonan Church of the Wrath of Baby Jesus and RibshackTM can improve upon that.
Then preach it, Reverend. Phox is ready to torch the place, paint herself with the ashes, and merrily dance off into the night. Let's improve that.
Tomorrow after the critical lift at work, I'll barf it up.
Just found this thread, and it makes me think. There's some cracking ideas here, in PD generally, and this thread has touched on some viable ways to start implementing them. The "Network" thing has real potential. There must be lots of sites where we already have people posting regularly, that have the potential to be primed towards a more activist distillation of our better ideas.
Ideologically, I think people are so disillusioned with the recycled bullshit that gets churned into their consciousness every day by the shitpump, all it will take is some well presented alternative to get people off their arses. Look how quickly the "Dump the Dictator" thing has taken off in the middle east this last couple of weeks. The ideas have been there for a long time, admittedly, but the thing that triggered it, was seeing someone getting up and doing something. And the people who got up and did something, first needed to know that they had the support of people from outside of their "Tribe". Which they got through the internet. If the eyes of the world are watching, and interactively supporting any action, then there's no knowing how far things can go.
I'm not suggesting we should all take Discord to the streets (yet) because things aren't focused enough, but some of the ideas in this forum, properly presented, to the right kind of people, in the right way, will take on a momentum that could shake the establishment to the core.
Anyway, I don't know where this is going to go, but it has the potential to go anywhere, and the people with the right kind of crazy to pull it off.
Bump for mining.