I'm on the Graduate Academic Integrity Committee. By volunteering, I am not only required to be familiar with and understand the GAI Policy, but I also sit on hearings for graduate students who have violated the policy. Level one offenses are mild while level three can result in suspension and level 4 as a permanent termination from the university.
This Thursday I will sit with four other people and hear the case of one who is charged with committing a level 3 violation, a flagrant and intentional plagiarism on a significant portion of an important paper in his class. After hearing the case, the committee decides and recommends the punishment.
I'm not really sure how I feel about this anymore. Is it just me, or are people assholes, out to bring down anyone they perceive as unworthy? I've looked at the letter and syllabus of the accusing professor, and it seems to me he is an asshole who I wouldn't associate with in public. Regardless of what this student has written, this guy is a jerkface. But then, this IS an MBA program we're talking about here. What is it you've said about MBA's before, Roger? Fucking useless? Worthless wasteful degrees? Something like that.
I know this kid is sunk, even if he does come out clean somehow. Maybe he actually has no problems with plagarizing to get the grade, or maybe he made a simple mistake and forgot to put in quotation marks. Perhaps he grew up in a culture where using the best information was rewarded, where using someone else's words was seen as the smart way, especially if they were good words.
I don't know, Roger. The kid did plagiarize, and quite a bit too. Not only did he copy words verbatim, but he didn't quote them or cite his source. Paragraphs worth, Roger. Maybe he deserves to burn. Maybe I'll be dolling out justice, you know, fairness and equity and returning whats payed out and all those other meaningless sayings. I'll suspend his ass, because he is a badwrong person, and he deserves it, the little badwrong student. SEND HIM BACK TO HIS COUNTRY, WE DON'T WANT HIS KIND HERE!
Maybe the professor manipulated the paper and is doing this to get him kicked out.
I can't really tell. All I have is the word of one professor and a couple scanned PDF's, with handwritten notes. His fate is in my hands. I judge, I'm THE Decider. I Decide.
To be honest, I feel pretty filthy.
it sounds to me like you already know what you should do, or at least what you think you should do.
Would it be different if you were marking the kids term paper and he just hadn't put the work in and thus you had to give him a failing grade which you knew it would set him back, academically, the same amount?
I think it's the same thing - to get your degree you need to equal parts get the marks AND not get caught doing stupid shit.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on December 08, 2009, 04:48:18 AM
it sounds to me like you already know what you should do, or at least what you think you should do.
Just the opposite. The more I think about it the less sure I am.
Flip a coin. Best way to make big, life or death decisions
Quote from: Kai on December 08, 2009, 04:01:22 AMPerhaps he grew up in a culture where using the best information was rewarded, where using someone else's words was seen as the smart way, especially if they were good words.
I've heard similar things from others who sat in on "unfair practice" hearings. The anecdotal is that certain cultures have a somewhat more relaxed attitude to plagiarism. Frankly, I don't consider that an excuse because most universities are quite clear on their anti-plagiarism policies.
Quote from: Kai on December 08, 2009, 04:01:22 AMI don't know, Roger. The kid did plagiarize, and quite a bit too. Not only did he copy words verbatim, but he didn't quote them or cite his source. Paragraphs worth, Roger. Maybe he deserves to burn. Maybe I'll be dolling out justice, you know, fairness and equity and returning whats payed out and all those other meaningless sayings. I'll suspend his ass, because he is a badwrong person, and he deserves it, the little badwrong student. SEND HIM BACK TO HIS COUNTRY, WE DON'T WANT HIS KIND HERE!
So, just one assignment, or do you consider a significant proportion of his past work to be knock-offs? If it's the former, and you believe the evidence implies
he did it and there is no evidence of a conspiracy, wouldn't the best thing be to fail him on that course, or simply deny him credit for that assignment?
Quote from: Kai on December 08, 2009, 04:01:22 AMTo be honest, I feel pretty filthy.
Well here's a bar of soap: Somebody has to do it.
Better you than someone of less conscience and integrity.
MBA's AFAIK, are degrees entirely revolving around administration. Not how to make things, or do things, but how to manage, control, or organize people who are doing or making things. I'm not too fond of people who only know how to manage or control, especially when business heirarchy seems to reward that over everything else.
Quote from: Jean-Lustine d'Hadamard on December 08, 2009, 09:41:09 AM
Quote from: Kai on December 08, 2009, 04:01:22 AMTo be honest, I feel pretty filthy.
Well here's a bar of soap: Somebody has to do it. Better you than someone of less conscience and integrity.
THIS. You're worried about making a fair decision. Better than someone who passes them out without fathoming the consequences.
Do you have to decide completely what happens to him, or just give your say on if he did plaigiarize as stated? What other groups or people are invovled in the eventual decision? I'd guess that you folks aren't the only level he has to clear to warrant a level 3 crash landing out of the university.
Quote from: Richter on December 08, 2009, 01:08:46 PM
MBA's AFAIK, are degrees entirely revolving around administration. Not how to make things, or do things, but how to manage, control, or organize people who are doing or making things. I'm not too fond of people who only know how to manage or control, especially when business heirarchy seems to reward that over everything else.
Quote from: Jean-Lustine d'Hadamard on December 08, 2009, 09:41:09 AM
Quote from: Kai on December 08, 2009, 04:01:22 AMTo be honest, I feel pretty filthy.
Well here's a bar of soap: Somebody has to do it. Better you than someone of less conscience and integrity.
THIS. You're worried about making a fair decision. Better than someone who passes them out without fathoming the consequences.
Do you have to decide completely what happens to him, or just give your say on if he did plaigiarize as stated? What other groups or people are invovled in the eventual decision? I'd guess that you folks aren't the only level he has to clear to warrant a level 3 crash landing out of the university.
The panel recommends punishment, and the university implements it. We are essentially responsible for the decision.
The initial accusation was sent to the dean of the graduate school. Based on that accusation, a hearing will be held for a level three offense. This isn't a court of law, even if the university is a public institution.
Can you question the kid charged?
If so, can you ask him to give a detailed summary of his thesis?
The point being, most people who plagarize with intent to defraud don't actually understand much of what they're ripping off. If the guy actually understands the material, then he's ultimately learned something, which is supposed to be the whole point.
Exactly, if his own material showed promise and he understood what he as copying and he showed complete remorse for his actions I would give him no more of a punishment beyond a full rewrite/resubmit of his work, and penalties to his max mark.
Quote from: LMNO on December 08, 2009, 01:31:06 PM
Can you question the kid charged?
If so, can you ask him to give a detailed summary of his thesis?
The point being, most people who plagarize with intent to defraud don't actually understand much of what they're ripping off. If the guy actually understands the material, then he's ultimately learned something, which is supposed to be the whole point.
Yeah, we get to question the kid. He also sent out a rebuttal, and it seems like it was one of those "wrote the paper but forgot to put one citation in" sort of mistakes, from his perspective. He also didn't do the most awesome job of paraphrasing.
Plagiarism is the highest of academic sins, Kai, and for good reason. This kid is going to go out into the world armed with an MBA. He will probably find himself in a position of responsibility, and if allowed to get a free pass on this, he will do so knowing that there are no penalties for lack of integrity and being dumb about it.
This is how we get AIG and Goldmann/Sachs and Bernie Madoff.
This is how we got our financial system plundered, our economy wrecked, and the public's faith in our institutions shattered...when the only reason those institutions function is faith.
If he did this thing, I'd run his ass up the flagpole, and make an example out of him.
"Forgot one citation", I understand to be a bit of a cardinal sin. I had an abnormal psych professor who insisted on grad quality work, (from college sophmores), and she DRILLED us on points like this.
Would have cleared the professor and the dean if it were so simple an issue?
(Remember: "A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time!" - Inquisitor Torquemada :wink:)
Quote from: Richter on December 08, 2009, 02:14:30 PMabnormal psych professor
(How does the adjective associate here? :lulz:)
Quote from: Jean-Lustine d'Hadamard on December 08, 2009, 03:47:57 PM
Quote from: Richter on December 08, 2009, 02:14:30 PMabnormal psych professor
(How does the adjective associate here? :lulz:)
Both ways.
She taught abnormal psych and was also VERY diabetic. Like "Poster Child for Professor Cramulus's theory" diabetic, with incredible mood swings.
The class started with 40 people. 6 showed up for the final exam, one of them to get her withdrawl letter (with the dean's special blessing for last minute bail outs) signed. She was on some sort of probation for her conduct
One HELL of a teacher though, took no crap, and you better not waltz into class without having read and comprehended EVERYTHING.
She also taught us a lot from outside the required text, like how each condition has it's own unique quirks and "flavors", beyond basic symptoms. (DSM4 was only recomendations an guidelines, not a bible in her estimation.)
My housemate has to deal with shit like this all the time, usually from her Korean and Taiwanese graduate students. It comes up at LEAST twice a year, and it's a huge deal every time. She always says things like "I think they just come from a different culture and this must be OK where they come from".
My thought is, they're grad students. If they don't know by now that it's not OK, they shouldn't be grad students. After four or five years in college, you FUCKING KNOW that plagiarism is wrong, and you're trying to pull a fast one. Regardless of your English language skills.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on December 08, 2009, 06:22:09 PMMy thought is, they're grad students. If they don't know by now that it's not OK, they shouldn't be grad students. After four or five years in college, you FUCKING KNOW that plagiarism is wrong, and you're trying to pull a fast one.
YES! THIS!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2009, 02:10:04 PM
if allowed to get a free pass on this, he will do so knowing that there are no penalties for lack of integrity and being dumb about it.
THIS THIS THIS
Integrity, dammit! This is basically the only way it can be taught these days, too. Integrity shouldn't have to be taught through negativity--there should be encouragement for integrity, rather than punishment for lack thereof--but better than nothing.
Quote from: Darth Cupcake on December 08, 2009, 07:49:27 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2009, 02:10:04 PM
if allowed to get a free pass on this, he will do so knowing that there are no penalties for lack of integrity and being dumb about it.
THIS THIS THIS
Integrity, dammit! This is basically the only way it can be taught these days, too. Integrity shouldn't have to be taught through negativity--there should be encouragement for integrity, rather than punishment for lack thereof--but better than nothing.
Integrity is its own reward. Once you have squandered your reputation, there's really no way to ever regain it completely.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2009, 02:10:04 PM
Plagiarism is the highest of academic sins, Kai, and for good reason. This kid is going to go out into the world armed with an MBA. He will probably find himself in a position of responsibility, and if allowed to get a free pass on this, he will do so knowing that there are no penalties for lack of integrity and being dumb about it.
This is how we get AIG and Goldmann/Sachs and Bernie Madoff.
This is how we got our financial system plundered, our economy wrecked, and the public's faith in our institutions shattered...when the only reason those institutions function is faith.
If he did this thing, I'd run his ass up the flagpole, and make an example out of him.
Yes, we must make an example, we must string him up so we can all pretend there is some sort of justice in the world, that we can actually stem the flow of AIG and Goldmann/Sachs and Madoff into the professional world. We make an example, that you just have to be /really smart/ about not having any integrity, you have to be very careful about it, and the guys that never get caught snigger at the ones that do, because that's one less competitor for jobs, for money, for glory. The really bad ones don't get caught till it's too late. It's like studying criminology and realizing you're learning about all the stupid criminals.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2009, 07:55:13 PM
Quote from: Darth Cupcake on December 08, 2009, 07:49:27 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2009, 02:10:04 PM
if allowed to get a free pass on this, he will do so knowing that there are no penalties for lack of integrity and being dumb about it.
THIS THIS THIS
Integrity, dammit! This is basically the only way it can be taught these days, too. Integrity shouldn't have to be taught through negativity--there should be encouragement for integrity, rather than punishment for lack thereof--but better than nothing.
Integrity is its own reward. Once you have squandered your reputation, there's really no way to ever regain it completely.
Sure, integrity is wonderful, is my MO, but I'm also smart. I know I'll probably be quite poor for the rest of my life. It's sobering to think, that, with my intelligence I could pull off some pretty spectacular steals. I wouldn't need integrity because no one would know I didn't have any, well, except the people who fell out of the game. They don't count though, just like me, a poor no money soul. I can see my current roommates shaking their heads at me as I walk into my room late at night. They've been sitting there all day, playing video games, knowing that they'll be multimillionaires within the next year as their bank accounts grow and accrue interest. Poor sap, me, having integrity.
Quote from: Kai on December 08, 2009, 08:03:32 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2009, 02:10:04 PM
Plagiarism is the highest of academic sins, Kai, and for good reason. This kid is going to go out into the world armed with an MBA. He will probably find himself in a position of responsibility, and if allowed to get a free pass on this, he will do so knowing that there are no penalties for lack of integrity and being dumb about it.
This is how we get AIG and Goldmann/Sachs and Bernie Madoff.
This is how we got our financial system plundered, our economy wrecked, and the public's faith in our institutions shattered...when the only reason those institutions function is faith.
If he did this thing, I'd run his ass up the flagpole, and make an example out of him.
Yes, we must make an example, we must string him up so we can all pretend there is some sort of justice in the world, that we can actually stem the flow of AIG and Goldmann/Sachs and Madoff into the professional world. We make an example, that you just have to be /really smart/ about not having any integrity, you have to be very careful about it, and the guys that never get caught snigger at the ones that do, because that's one less competitor for jobs, for money, for glory. The really bad ones don't get caught till it's too late. It's like studying criminology and realizing you're learning about all the stupid criminals.
1. No, we must make an example so that future bad acts will be discouraged. If the situation is hopeless and nothing can or should be done, then why are you on the committee? One bad apple can make a HUGE impact on the financial market - on real peoples' lives - as we have seen. Okay, so you might not get them all...by that reasoning, cops and the courts shouldn't bother dealing with rapists, because rape is still going to happen.
2. Criminals are by definition stupid; the risk/reward ratio is never in your favor. If they're smart, they're politicians. Trust me on this one, I spent years around criminals, in one capacity or another, and they're some dumb sonsofbitches. This guy, for example, cut and pasted someone else's work, and never gave thought to the fact that a professor in the field might not catch it, or smell something funny and word search it. Ergo, he's an idiot.
But do what you see fit, Kai. Let it slide, if you think that's the thing to do. I mean, it cheapens the work done by honest students at the very least, but at least you won't have allowed an idiot to besmirch himself with his own feces.
Quote from: Kai on December 08, 2009, 08:08:51 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2009, 07:55:13 PM
Quote from: Darth Cupcake on December 08, 2009, 07:49:27 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2009, 02:10:04 PM
if allowed to get a free pass on this, he will do so knowing that there are no penalties for lack of integrity and being dumb about it.
THIS THIS THIS
Integrity, dammit! This is basically the only way it can be taught these days, too. Integrity shouldn't have to be taught through negativity--there should be encouragement for integrity, rather than punishment for lack thereof--but better than nothing.
Integrity is its own reward. Once you have squandered your reputation, there's really no way to ever regain it completely.
Sure, integrity is wonderful, is my MO, but I'm also smart. I know I'll probably be quite poor for the rest of my life. It's sobering to think, that, with my intelligence I could pull off some pretty spectacular steals. I wouldn't need integrity because no one would know I didn't have any, well, except the people who fell out of the game. They don't count though, just like me, a poor no money soul. I can see my current roommates shaking their heads at me as I walk into my room late at night. They've been sitting there all day, playing video games, knowing that they'll be multimillionaires within the next year as their bank accounts grow and accrue interest. Poor sap, me, having integrity.
Well, it's probably not too late to sell your soul for some money. Little green pieces of paper with pictures of dead people on them. They're quite useful. You can spend them to buy STUFF, lots and lots of STUFF, and you can jam all that STUFF into your big house, into that big hole in your chest where something used to be, something that didn't seem important at the time, but it kinda aches now that it's gone, and you wonder why no PEOPLE around you seem REAL anymore, but at least you have STUFF and a big fat bank account full of that green paper, you can take it out and swim in it in your bigass living room and buy and sell people and never mind that little farting noise, that's just what's left of you disappearing.
That's what they have to look forward to, Kai. That's their future.
And you? You have work that you love, and the knowledge that you've earned everything you have, even if you don't have everything you've earned.
Money's just money, you only get one you.
I'll probably go with the standard suspention pending the results of the hearing. And I'm glad I have integrity.
Even with that I feel pretty jaded about the concept of justice right now.
Quote from: Kai on December 08, 2009, 08:19:28 PM
I'll probably go with the standard suspention pending the results of the hearing. And I'm glad I have integrity.
Even with that I feel pretty jaded about the concept of justice right now.
Justice, like most important things, happens on a very small scale, in little tiny, not-so-satisfying bits.
But if nobody does it, then we may as well all pile into the sty with the piggies.
Um.
I know a lot of very intelligent people with tremendous integrity that make very, very good livings. You don't have to be a criminal to do well in your field, and if you do, you've entered the wrong field.
These may actually be some of my favorite Roger posts as of late.
Although that's also because I've been so busy and brain-fried that I haven't gotten into the really meaty ones. But, nonetheless.
Good posts.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 08, 2009, 08:20:50 PM
Quote from: Kai on December 08, 2009, 08:19:28 PM
I'll probably go with the standard suspention pending the results of the hearing. And I'm glad I have integrity.
Even with that I feel pretty jaded about the concept of justice right now.
Justice, like most important things, happens on a very small scale, in little tiny, not-so-satisfying bits.
But if nobody does it, then we may as well all pile into the sty with the piggies.
Okay.
I really didn't intend to act without integrity, everyone. Was just writing on a riff, and seeing where it took me.
I wouldn't say anyone's gone so far, and I'd wonder what they were doing if they did, Kai.
No one can rightly say we will or we won't until we actually do. Without action; intention, ideals, or justice, it's all just noise. Or worse, noise that makes a farce of things that do go right. Not much to be done about it when being a horrible bastard to the world is the only way to get it to work out.
He should burn for lack of creativity, and his lack of showing that he truly deserves an MBA.
Anytime there's plagiarism from the "participants" (our word for special needs students that must be pampered and never made to work like they are truly attaining a collegiate degree) in my program, it's almost always one of the students from India, and they usually have one of their professional lackeys do their work for them. The only time it's revealed they didn't do their work is when presentations are required, and questions in the material but not included in the slides are asked.
That's the true spirit of having an MBA.
I think you should recommend he gets kicked out of the school or, at the very least, tell him you seriously considered it.
Apparently, I read that whole thing wrong.
I left it alone because I thought Kai was riffing, and I wasn't sure where he wanted to go with it.
I have the same dilemma, actually, about my work with the PTA. I realize that the skeletal framework that I work in is so not full of integrity and in facts robs us of a lot of natural instinct and fosters groupthink behaviors that make me shiver with loathing. But it's a powerful machine and gets shit done, and it's taken seriously (the most important aspect when doing any sort of political dirtywork) by those who interact from within and without.
Kai's judicial sense didn't sound like it was in jeopardy, just his outlook on the role he holds within that panel he's on.