Wow, blatant thuggery by the UK and Netherlands on this one:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2019f466-faea-11de-94d8-00144feab49a.html?nclick_check=1
QuoteParliament narrowly approved the repayment plan last week after months of acrimonious debate but Mr Grimsson refused to ratify it amid overwhelming public opposition to a deal that critics say is unfair and unaffordable.
Britain and the Netherlands condemned his intervention and issued thinly veiled threats that collapse of the deal would jeopardise Iceland's bid to join the European Union and its $10bn economic rescue programme led by the International Monetary Fund.
Fitch, the credit ratings agency, downgraded Iceland's main sovereign rating to "junk" status in response and Standard & Poor's said it could follow suit.
Never mind every citizen of Iceland is going to have to pay off $17,352, in the middle of an economic collapse, to afford this. Oh no. Nor that Iceland has already paid back what it is legally required to. And more importantly, those Icelandic banks were so unregulated they made the (essentially unregulated) City of London banks look like Soviet bureacracies by comparison. Which means they were doing some deeply dubious shit there, highly risky stuff where they had to know there was a risk they could lose money. Cant cheat an honest man and all that. Oh, and the hilarity of holding an entire country responsible for the actions of some LLCs.
This is utterly disgusting. We are threatening to turn Iceland into a third world country to satisfy the wounded prides and pockets of our own financial overlords. This and nothing more.
so the threat is that they don't get entangled in IMF debt?
seems like a no brainer to me... of course, the decided they want to join the EU, and i wouldn't do that, so i'm not really looking at things the same way they are, i guess...
They should have some counter threat at the ready that involves some Bjork of Mass Destruction, or something...
I dunno about the Netherlands, but this attitude is SOP for the UK financial international relations, no?
Yeah, the IMF thing is a mixed blessing, but they really do need some sort of money, the country is in an awful state right now. Either way, whether they resist or submit to the UK and Netherlands, they're fucked.
And yes, this is pretty standard, unfortunately. Still, looks like we're going to economically destroy a country for no good reason at all. Also take into account that the Icelanders humiliated Britain in the "Cod wars", a slight that was never forgiven. Shock the country into depression, and then buy up the rights to their fishing zones on the cheap, keep the bankers happy and everyone wins, except the Icelandic citizens, and fuck them.
This is especially cruel, even by our low current standards.
Quote from: Cain on January 07, 2010, 08:37:18 PM
Yeah, the IMF thing is a mixed blessing, but they really do need some sort of money, the country is in an awful state right now. Either way, whether they resist or submit to the UK and Netherlands, they're fucked.
And yes, this is pretty standard, unfortunately. Still, looks like we're going to economically destroy a country for no good reason at all. Also take into account that the Icelanders humiliated Britain in the "Cod wars", a slight that was never forgiven. Shock the country into depression, and then buy up the rights to their fishing zones on the cheap, keep the bankers happy and everyone wins, except the Icelandic citizens, and fuck them.
This is especially cruel, even by our low current standards.
This is why I find it funny that most Americans think of Britain as having mellowed in its old age.
It just got smarter.
Yep, we let you do most of the heavy lifting, and reaped the rewards.
Of course, we then forgot that was the plan, so your eventual deathspiral will probably take us out as well. No doubt there will be a downside to this, though.
Quote from: Cain on January 07, 2010, 08:42:10 PM
Yep, we let you do most of the heavy lifting, and reaped the rewards.
Of course, we then forgot that was the plan, so your eventual deathspiral will probably take us out as well. No doubt there will be a downside to this, though.
Bosh. England has survived far worse than this.
Maybe. But we pissed off France and Germany (well, more accurately, the Tories did. Plus both now seem wise to the UK's strategy of expanding the EU without integrating it - acting as America's proxy to prevent the rise of a European superpower), who I would consider the first candidates to turn to for continued international relevance. Our Navy is shit, our army is incompetent and our air force specialize in killing children by dropping crates of propaganda on them. We spend all our money on pointless legacy items, like the Trident submarines, our children grow up illiterate, innumerate, obese and linguistically incapable by most world standards, we spend more than we save and our population is irrelevant when compared to places like China, India, America or the rest of the EU. When the Scots leave they'll take half the North Sea oil with them, and if the Falkland Islanders have any sense they'll consider doing the same.
The two strengths we did have, our economy and the Commonwealth, have been undermined for 30+ years now. Stick a fork in this country, its done.
Quote from: Cain on January 07, 2010, 08:50:45 PM
Maybe. But we pissed off France and Germany (well, more accurately, the Tories did. Plus both now seem wise to the UK's strategy of expanding the EU without integrating it - acting as America's proxy to prevent the rise of a European superpower), who I would consider the first candidates to turn to for continued international relevance. Our Navy is shit, our army is incompetent and our air force specialize in killing children by dropping crates of propaganda on them. We spend all our money on pointless legacy items, like the Trident submarines, our children grow up illiterate, innumerate, obese and linguistically incapable by most world standards, we spend more than we save and our population is irrelevant when compared to places like China, India, America or the rest of the EU. When the Scots leave they'll take half the North Sea oil with them, and if the Falkland Islanders have any sense they'll consider doing the same.
The two strengths we did have, our economy and the Commonwealth, have been undermined for 30+ years now. Stick a fork in this country, its done.
And again, Britain has dealt with worse. Look, all you have to do is burn Cherbourg, Caen, and a few hamlets, then get the French to attack you in the rain. Easy.
Also, while Britain may have some serious problems, they pale in comparison to what the Chinese (and by extension the Russians) are facing. The whole world is about 20 years overdue for a massive shitfest - which you know is coming - and we're in the economic/cultural slump that always precedes these things.
true!
you can positively taste it in the air!
the tension is viscous and leaves an oily film in your nostrils...
this shitfest is gonna be a real thing..
Yeah, but the Russians and the Chinese are used to pain and suffering on massive levels. This country is run by a bunch of public school boys who couldn't plot their way out of a wet paper bag and think the world should submit because of their innate class and race superiority (check out George Osbourne and Michael Gove, for prime examples). At least some of the Labour Party actually made their way through the system based on personal guile, but those guys are going to be out of power for at least another decade.
Personally, I'm going to enjoy watching the Russians making this country their bitch, with German and French approval. Its what I'd do, in their position.
And seriously, if this country is reduced to pulling a school bully routine on somewhere like Iceland, thats a sign of how bad things have already gotten.
Quote from: Cain on January 07, 2010, 09:05:47 PM
Yeah, but the Russians and the Chinese are used to pain and suffering on massive levels. This country is run by a bunch of public school boys who couldn't plot their way out of a wet paper bag and think the world should submit because of their innate class and race superiority (check out George Osbourne and Michael Gove, for prime examples). At least some of the Labour Party actually made their way through the system based on personal guile, but those guys are going to be out of power for at least another decade.
Personally, I'm going to enjoy watching the Russians making this country their bitch, with German and French approval. Its what I'd do, in their position.
And seriously, if this country is reduced to pulling a school bully routine on somewhere like Iceland, thats a sign of how bad things have already gotten.
1. Name a single war or similar crisis in which Britain didn't go into with idiots running the show. Remember Mountbatten? If he hadn't had a chance to fail himself out of a job at Dieppe, he'd have lost D-Day for the allies.
2. China isn't just going into hard times, they're about to cease existing as a nation if they don't do something. Their population levels are turning their entire arable sector into desert, and nobody wants their industrial products anymore (I have instituted a no-Chinese-parts/steel policy at the plant, and everyone in my field that I know has done the same thing). My guess is, they'll try to grab Siberia and parts of SE Asia. That's when the fun starts.
Just talked this over with my gf, I had to read up on the story because the bits I sniffed from the news gave me the impression that Iceland didn't want to pay back that $10bln economic rescue plan, and if you borrow money you gotta pay it back, a deal's a deal right?
But that is complete nonsense.
So I checked the article and read it somewhat better and let me get this straight now. So Iceland is (or was) going to get $10bln economic rescue plan. But the Icelandi Banki collapsed and then lots of people who had money there in NL and UK lost that money. And then NL and UK covered that money for their citizens (NL probably up to a maximum amount of EU 100,000 per account cause that's what they did when the Dutch DSB bank crashed last year). And now NL and UK want Iceland to pay them the money they covered? Am I right so far?
And then you say Iceland already paid what it is legally required to do, so it already made some partial payment to the governments to offset what they covered for their citizens who lost money in the Iceland Bank, except UK and NL simply want more than that?
And in order to force Iceland to pay up they are threatening to not give Iceland this $10bln economic rescue package anymore and make it hard for them to join the EU (but did Iceland actually want to join? I thought they didnt?)
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 07, 2010, 09:11:05 PM
1. Name a single war or similar crisis in which Britain didn't go into with idiots running the show. Remember Mountbatten? If he hadn't had a chance to fail himself out of a job at Dieppe, he'd have lost D-Day for the allies.
2. China isn't just going into hard times, they're about to cease existing as a nation if they don't do something. Their population levels are turning their entire arable sector into desert, and nobody wants their industrial products anymore (I have instituted a no-Chinese-parts/steel policy at the plant, and everyone in my field that I know has done the same thing). My guess is, they'll try to grab Siberia and parts of SE Asia. That's when the fun starts.
True. These guys are pretty special though. I mean, one of them is promoting
Steiner schools. Yes, they really are that stupid.
China does have a plan, actually. Using the Political Criminal Networks that have proliferated in places like Fuijan province, the "snakeheads", acting with complete impunity, are shipping masses of Chinese workers overseas. It's undercutting the authority of Beijing and lining the pockets of provincal criminals, but it is cutting down on both pollution and riots. And causing vast sums of money to be sent back to China, and spent by families there. They're also securing trade with countries no-one else will trade with (like Burma). It might not be enough, but I cannot dismiss them just yet.
Quote from: Triple Zero on January 07, 2010, 10:40:52 PM
Just talked this over with my gf, I had to read up on the story because the bits I sniffed from the news gave me the impression that Iceland didn't want to pay back that $10bln economic rescue plan, and if you borrow money you gotta pay it back, a deal's a deal right?
But that is complete nonsense.
So I checked the article and read it somewhat better and let me get this straight now. So Iceland is (or was) going to get $10bln economic rescue plan. But the Icelandi Banki collapsed and then lots of people who had money there in NL and UK lost that money. And then NL and UK covered that money for their citizens (NL probably up to a maximum amount of EU 100,000 per account cause that's what they did when the Dutch DSB bank crashed last year). And now NL and UK want Iceland to pay them the money they covered? Am I right so far?
And then you say Iceland already paid what it is legally required to do, so it already made some partial payment to the governments to offset what they covered for their citizens who lost money in the Iceland Bank, except UK and NL simply want more than that?
And in order to force Iceland to pay up they are threatening to not give Iceland this $10bln economic rescue package anymore and make it hard for them to join the EU (but did Iceland actually want to join? I thought they didnt?)
Basically, under EU law, Iceland only has to pay back 20,000 Euros to each investor. And this has passed the Parliament without a problem, despite the fact that these payments equal the entire yearly export earnings of Iceland (and the UK and Netherlands imposed a punitive 5.5% interest rate on top of those payments too).
But investors want the rest back as well, yes. The thing is, UK banks were the ones who lobbied for Icelandic banks to be given licences to operate in the EU, against the advice of the EU. This is because they wanted them set up with virtually no regulations, so they could do things which would be considered illegal even in the highly deregulated London financial markets. They then went on to do these incredibly risky transactions, whatever they were, and lost their money. And yes, if Iceland doesn't pay up, our respective countries have threatened it with vetoing its EU entry (which it does want, and was promised last July) and by witholding the IMF cash.
Incidentally, Iceland has an 8% uneployment rate, its economy is predicted to shrink by 8.5% next year, and its crash is considered the worst ever crash in economic history. But never mind that, bankers gotta get paid, yo!
(Sorry, I'm a little pissed and I apologize if it sounds like its directed at you. I just finished writing a post about a bunch of UK "leftists" and "liberals" who are cheerleading this on, either because they don't understand the economics, or just like our PM bullying other nations. God damn I hate people sometimes)
you mean Myanmar... :wink:
Iceland only barely squeaked by the vote to join EU, right?
it got rejected multiple times before it passed, too?
I'm guessing the folks that didn't want to join the EU are using this as much as possible...
silver lining for them perhaps?
I shall call them Burma until they stop having hilarious hissy fits about being called Burma. Its for their own good.
I'd have to check now. Until 2007, they did oppose entry, you're right (probably because their economy was riding high on the whole deregulation thing, and the EU lurves teh regulations). The crisis, naturally, changed that.
Spain seems to be trying to slow things down, but Sweden is in charge of the process and they're keen on getting the Icelandic in. So is Malta, which means Greece is too, which means Germany probably is as well (maybe. Ah, intrigue and hidden alliances among the EU are so fun). No-one seems really opposed...apart from the friends of UK and Dutch investors.
From what my wife was telling me about when she studied in the region, everyone calls them Burmese (and roll their eyes when they say it. apparently they are the regions version of Kentucky or something)
Why is Spain and Greece not keen on getting them in? is it because they are about to sovereign default and they don't want some other beggar crapping up the handout scene for them?
I'm not sure about Spain. They just threw a ton of paperwork at them, for apparently no reason. When that happens, my first suspicion is bureacratic sabotage.
Greece do seem to want them in. They have a lot of influence over Malta, for some reason, despite the obvious UK and Italian connections. Greece uses Malta and Cyprus as proxies, and Germany, the real power in the EU, uses Greece as a proxy quite often. On the other hand, even the EU micro-states can sometimes act independently.
True. These guys are pretty special though. I mean, one of them is promoting Steiner schools. Yes, they really are that stupid.
[/quote]
What's wrong with Waldorf Schools?
Didn't the UK also freeze numerous Icelandic assets using anti terrorism laws thus making a moderate disaster into a massive one because Iceland couldn't get at any foreign investments?
anti terrorism laws?
what was the pretext? or was it simply a blantant misuse of law? (which would shock me, i tell you!)
The beauty of anti terrorism laws is that you don't actually need a pretext, they're set up to avoid all that unimportant judicial review crap.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on January 08, 2010, 03:49:08 AM
The beauty of anti terrorism laws is that you don't actually need a pretext, they're set up to avoid all that unimportant judicial review crap.
:lulz: It hurts so good.
The UK has a long and distinguished history of the misuse of anti-terrorism laws. Under previous legislation, I seem to recall people got arrested for wearing t-shirts that insulted Glorious Leader Tony Blair, and eavesdropping laws used by councils to catch people cheating on...something or other to do with school catchment areas, I think. Or rubbish, or something.
It also helps to know that the Special Branch (the counter-terrorism police force) are the most heavily politicized law enforcement agency in the country. Its no coincidence that when police were sent into Parliament to search an opposition party MP's offices, Special Branch were the ones to do it.
Quote from: Cain on January 08, 2010, 12:29:21 AM
(Sorry, I'm a little pissed and I apologize if it sounds like its directed at you. I just finished writing a post about a bunch of UK "leftists" and "liberals" who are cheerleading this on, either because they don't understand the economics, or just like our PM bullying other nations. God damn I hate people sometimes)
Oh not at all, as I said, it was a good reason to stop being ill-informed about the matter.
And it doesn't surprise me in the least that my country is capable of doing awful things when it comes to banking ... I dunno if it's the former minister of finance that went working for the shady DSB bank or just simply the dark cold hard calculating look in Wouter Bos's eyes. For some reason, I believe Balkenende is just doing his moderate christian thing, not always things I agree with, but I don't really expect him to be plotting dark horrible stuff either.
But then again, apparently Balkenende doesn't take a stand against this extortion of Iceland either.
Most important thing is, what you said in the OP makes sense to me, and since I'm pretty sure some time soon some friend will bring up this subject, I'm gonna need to be able to argue that point. Because they insist that I cannot be well-informed since I do not watch TV, and refuse to pay attention to any kind of celebrity gossip poop or dumb TV shows. Though they more or less went a bit silent when I could explain them the basic causes of the mortgage crisis better than they could :)
Even though, in comparison to the average PD-er I do not consider myself well-informed at all, but yeah :)
Quote from: Triple Zero on January 08, 2010, 11:46:21 PM
Most important thing is, what you said in the OP makes sense to me, and since I'm pretty sure some time soon some friend will bring up this subject, I'm gonna need to be able to argue that point. Because they insist that I cannot be well-informed since I do not watch TV, and refuse to pay attention to any kind of celebrity gossip poop or dumb TV shows. Though they more or less went a bit silent when I could explain them the basic causes of the mortgage crisis better than they could :)
Even though, in comparison to the average PD-er I do not consider myself well-informed at all, but yeah :)
This is one of the reasons I like PD so much: I can siphon off of everyone's knowledge and make myself seem incredibly well-informed about everything.
Quote from: Cainad on January 09, 2010, 01:21:46 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on January 08, 2010, 11:46:21 PM
Most important thing is, what you said in the OP makes sense to me, and since I'm pretty sure some time soon some friend will bring up this subject, I'm gonna need to be able to argue that point. Because they insist that I cannot be well-informed since I do not watch TV, and refuse to pay attention to any kind of celebrity gossip poop or dumb TV shows. Though they more or less went a bit silent when I could explain them the basic causes of the mortgage crisis better than they could :)
Even though, in comparison to the average PD-er I do not consider myself well-informed at all, but yeah :)
This is one of the reasons I like PD so much: I can siphon off of everyone's knowledge and make myself seem incredibly well-informed about everything.
This!
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on January 08, 2010, 02:09:20 AM
True. These guys are pretty special though. I mean, one of them is promoting Steiner schools. Yes, they really are that stupid.
What's wrong with Waldorf Schools?
[/quote]
Apart from the enormous amounts of pseudoscience and crap they teach, not much. But if you insist on a fuller list
- they encourage bullying, as a form of "karmic payback"
- explicitly racist teachings
- Teaching "science" based on the four elements (ie; earth, water, air, fire)
- Almost complete omission of scientific theory from the cirriculum
- Geological stages such as Post-Atlantis and Mid-Lemuria are frequently used
- Teaching intelligent design (of the Steiner variation) instead of evolution
- The schools are generally used as a vehicle to peddle Anthroposophy
Quote from: Cain on January 08, 2010, 12:29:21 AMBasically, under EU law, Iceland only has to pay back 20,000 Euros to each investor. And this has passed the Parliament without a problem, despite the fact that these payments equal the entire yearly export earnings of Iceland (and the UK and Netherlands imposed a punitive 5.5% interest rate on top of those payments too).
But investors want the rest back as well, yes.
BTW, Dutch media is
still reporting as if Iceland literally owes us 1.3 billion euros which they "won't give back to us" :argh!:
And not a word about this EU law 20k per investor + 5.5% that they already agreed upon.
Basically they're portraying Iceland as a bunch of thiefs that won't give back what they "borrowed" from us and Wouter Bos is decried as a hero for holding this position.
To be honest, you all seem to be missing the real reason that the Uk (if not the Netherlands) is trying to twist their arm.
The government advisers that came from the city advised a lot of local councils and county councils to invest in other countries, for various reasons. The fact that the Co-op and the Post office run all their financial services through the Bank of Ireland is testament to this. They'd be more mellow if we'd just lost a lot of money from individuals, but what's happened is a significant amount of local spending money for the next five years went up in smoke.
Losing the money of any government is unlikely to make you popular, but losing money from a country which relies so heavily on government spending to run basic services is like enraging a pregnant, steroid enhanced baboon. Simply, if some money isn't found soon the public might find out that the government can't afford to maintain the infrastructure in the short term.
This is a no-no.
Each Icelander may have to pay a debt of $17,352, but each UK citizen has amassed $22,555 of debt through bailing out the Bank of Scotland, among other things, and simply, we can't get Nixon to pay it.
Actually what's happened is a return to the fine British tradition of plundering other nations, and I for one think its about damn time. In fact, I'm going to plan an invasion of the USA.
ok so I've been talking this Iceland thing over with some friends, and they gave me a link, which seems a bit different from your story, it's Dutch so I will translate some parts:
http://www.bnr.nl/artikel/13941020/chronologie-debacle-rond-icesave
20 november 2008: IMF and some European countries lend to Iceland 6.5 bln euro on the condition that Iceland repays all its debts.
26 januari 2009: Premier Geir Haarde and his government step down. Icelanders protest for weeks about the way the government handled the crisis.
6 juni 2009: Netherlands and Iceland reach agreement on repayment of Icesave accounts. Iceland will get 15 years time to repay the entire amount of 1.3 bln euros to the Netherlands [I suppose this is the Dutch part of that 6.5 bln mentioned earlier?]
23 juli 2009: Iceland formally requests membership of the EU. The problems with NL and UK are an obstacle.
28 augustus 2009: Icelandian parliament agrees with repayment of 1.3 bln euros to NL. However, the conditions on this agreement remain unclear whether this money will be repaid within the agreed period [of 15 years].
19 oktober 2009: NL, UK and Iceland sign a new agreement about repaying the loans. Now NL and UK are guaranteed that the pre-financed repayments to Icesave investors will be paid back by Iceland. Iceland can even take longer than until 2024 to make these payments.
30 december 2009: Icelandian parliament agrees with the new law that makes the compensations to NL and UK possible.
31 december 2009: President Olafur Ragnar Grimsson does not yet want to sign the law. He says the program is still subject of debate and says he needs more time to reach a decision.
3 januari 2010: Nearly 25% of Icelandian population signs a petition against repayment. They are of the opinion that the Icelandian taxpayer should not take the hit for errors made by financial institutions that operate under official supervision.
5 januari 2010: The Icelandian president decides not to sign for the program. A veto by a president only happened once before in Icelandian history.
So all in all, there's no word about this 20k per debtor, nor about Iceland actually promising to even pay that part back.
And in all fairness, I can't really read this story in any other way than that Iceland did borrow money to pay its debt, did promise to pay it all back, and now is trying to backpedal out of that promise.
And sure enough, you can argue about whether it's a good idea of NL and UK to twist Iceland's economical arm behind it's back like that. But it's not like NL and UK aren't entitled to getting their money back and the investors are just whining about not getting everything back, but just a part. Cause it seems whatever it was they got back, was not paid by Iceland, will not be paid by Iceland, but will be paid by UK and NL.
Which is kind of different from the idea I got from your explanation on the previous page. So is that timeline story wrong? Is my interpretation of it wrong? Did I understand your explanation wrong?
From what I've read, that part of the legislation was bundled in with the rest of the Icesave debt, so in blocking one, the President is blocking them all. Nonetheless, it is only the part I highlighted which is contentious.