Most images of Eris seem to depict her as a typical Greek goddess, but wouldn't she really have been even more martial that Athene? Helmet and spear, etc?
Personally, I think 'dagger hidden in her bosom' is a far more apt styling. A helmet and spear puts her as a leader of warriors. Chaos never leads the war though... it wanders in afterward and makes tiny, deadly stabs at whatever survived. The army cannot follow Discord or Confusion, but discord and confusion precede war, quite often.
Hmm. That's a thought.
Funny that they describe her in the PD as clutching a dagger to her bosom, but I've not found a single image of her in this guise.
Probably because they made it up.
I think Eris should look like a Proper Lady, but with a million cats
Some of the imagery of the gods are universal. God of War = Weapons, Rage-Face, Athleticism.
God of Strife and Disorder would be more multifarious since that means so many different things to so many different people. Ugly crone, maniacal laughing bitch taking pleasure at your misfortune, sexy tease.
But I don't really know a whole lot about Greek Mythology.
I can't remember where I heard this, but wasn't she depicted as kind of an old crabby crone?
You probably read it in the PD... I've yet to find evidence of that persona.
Quote from: Alty on February 22, 2010, 09:36:57 PM
Some of the imagery of the gods are universal. God of War = Weapons, Rage-Face, Athleticism.
God of Strife and Disorder would be more multifarious since that means so many different things to so many different people. Ugly crone, maniacal laughing bitch taking pleasure at your misfortune, sexy tease.
But I don't really know a whole lot about Greek Mythology.
total sexy manical tease drapped in ripped robes with wild hair the you just want to pull on. :evil: :evil:
This is the only ancient image of Eris I've ever seen:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_M2Cvj22ZTf0/SSBFwbL3i8I/AAAAAAAAAjs/WTDYNirf7jw/s400/Eris_(Discordia).jpg)
until I Googled today and also found these:
(http://www.theoi.com/image/N15.2Eris.jpg)
(http://www.theoi.com/image/N15.3Eris.jpg)
From this page:
http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Eris.html
Pretty fucking cool.
Thanks Nigel... that first image is my desktop image at work.
Also from that page:
QuoteTHE FABLE OF ERIS & HERACLES
Aesop, Fables 534 (from Chambry 129) (trans. Gibbs) (Greek fable C6th B.C.) :
"Herakles was making his way through a narrow pass. He saw something that looked like an apple lying on the ground and he tried to smash it with his club. After having been struck by the club, the thing swelled up to twice its size. Herakles struck it again with his club, even harder than before, and the thing then expanded to such a size that it blocked Herakles's way. Herakles let go of his club and stood there, amazed. Athena saw him and said, `O Herakles, don't be so surprised! This thing that has brought about your confusion is Aporia (Contentiousness) and Eris (Strife). If you just leave it alone, it stays small; but if you decide to fight it, then it swells from its small size and grows large.'"
INTERESTING.
I noticed one thing for sure, which is that Eris is DUSKY and has CURLY HAIR!
And kind of a big nose.
I was also interested to note that the contents of Pandora's Box were Eris' children.
I like big noses.
Eris is linked to the Graiai[~Graiae] through her aspect as Enyo and Bellona (Pephredo, Enyo, and Dino, the 3 hags that helped Perseus kill Medusa, who oddly enough was a member of the Gorgons triplicate Stheno, Eurayle, and Medusa, which were "sisters" to the Graiai,).
You've got to keep in mind tho, that Enyo was commonly known in certain areas as Ma-Enyo, or just Ma. Ma was also known as Ma-Cybele, or Rhea. This layering of masks figures through all of Eris' mythos, from pre-Classical to Current.
CHAOS -> Nyx -> Eris -> Ma-Enyo/Pephredo/Dino -> Ma-Cybele(Kybele) -> Rhea (who, with Kronos, birthed Zeus).
The family tree gets even more tangled when some authors claim that Eris/Enyo was Zeus' daughter and Ares' sister, making her her own Grand-Ma. This I think was a later obfuscation to protect the mysteries. Oddly enough, if you look up Roman temples and art related to these figures, they usually don't have any public service, or publicly recognized clergy until you get to the more "common" deities of Rhea/Ma-Cybele/Bonna-Dea (the Great Mother, who incidentally the Scythians called the Great Crone and said birthed the Hemp plant/angel...... incidentally, did you know that Buddha Gautama was from a noble Scythian clan?). The Bellona temple was used to meet with ambassadors and formally declare war, and this Bureaucracy element has been artistically represented as recently as the civil war.
Enyo/Bellona would most likely be pictured in war regalia as she was the Roman goddess who's temple hosted all of the War Planning sessions. Enyo (~destroyer of cities)/Bellona have some historical artistic representations:
This is a bronze by Rodin!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Rodin_Bellona_p1070045.jpg/220px-Rodin_Bellona_p1070045.jpg)
More:
(http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/csl0157l.jpg)
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n262/telarus/brumidi.jpg)
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n262/telarus/bellona3.jpg)
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n262/telarus/Justice.jpg)
Greg and Kerry knew more mythology than they let on.
Quote from: Quintus Smyrnaeus
"To one place Eris (Strife incarnate) drew them all, the fearful Battle-queen, beheld of none, but cloaked in clouds blood-raining: on she stalked swelling the mighty roar of battle, now rushed through Troy's squadrons, through Akhaia's now; Phobos (Panic) and Deimos (Fear) still waited on her steps to make their father's [Ares'] sister glorious. From small to huge that Fury's stature grew; her arms of adamant were blood-besprent, the deadly lance she brandished reached the sky. Earth quaked beneath her feet: dread blasts of fire flamed from her mouth: her voice pealed thunder-like kindling strong men. Swift closed the fronts of fight drawn by a dread Power to the mighty work."
Sounds like she definitely wasn't dainty.
[Edit: posted at the same time as Telarus.]
Great post Telarus, interesting stuff! Funny how we can reach opposite conclusions from the same material though, because you said:
Quote from: TelarusGreg and Kerry knew more mythology than they let on.
I personally was thinking that Eris was a bad choice for what they seemed to be going for. Much more of a war goddess, the embodiment of hate not chaos, and hardly a prankster.
Regardless, the question is really how to turn all this to our advantage via propaganda.
Here's some links to ancient coinage:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=25089.msg165794#msg165794
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=25089.msg169438#msg169438
And holy shit, that leads me to find Her dagger:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=bellona
QuoteBellona - A goddess created to share the fatigues and sanguinary glories of Mars; but whether as wife, sister, or companion, is not said. The figure of this female tutelary of warriors is considered by some to appear on a large brass of Gordian III, bearing on its reverse the legend of VIRTVS AVGG (Virtus Augustorum); standing with a spear in one hand, and resting the other on a shield upon the ground. The galeated Amazon is generally distiguished from Minerva by holding a parazonium; and from Roma, by not bearing an idol of Victory; and, excepting the right breast and the left foot, her limbs are covered with drapery. Captain Smyth, p 247 Dictionary of Roman Coins
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Parazonium
QuoteParazonium - A weapon similar to a dagger but longer (about 35 to 50 cm in length), and semi-triagular in shape; always carried in a sheath which is usually attached mid-body.
Parazonium - Numismatic antiquaries are not agreed as to the proper signification of the word, when applied to an object seen on several Roman coins of the Imperial series. Patin, also referring to its Greek etymology, says the parazonium was a weapon so called because it was worn suspended by a belt or chain from the zona, or girdle; but that it had no point, because a general ought not to be cruel towards his own people. Spanheim speaks of parazonia as swords attached to the thigh, or hanging from a girdle. "But," says Jobert, "Its very form, and the manner in which it is held, is opposed to this opinion." And then he alludes to the medal of Honos et Virtus, struck under Galba, in which Virtus holds what is called the parazonium upright, one end resting on his knee. He also adduces instances, on coins of Titus and Domitian, in both which it rests on the side, not attached to the girdle. And he quotes a reverse of Antoninus Pius, in which this parazonium, which Patin calls scipio, is across both shoulders in the form of a quiver. These exceptional cases of the manner in which it appears upon coins to have been carried, do not, however, interfere with the more usual acceptation of the word as signifying a short sheathed sword, worn at the girdle. The circular termination does not shew that the sword had no point, for it is merely the metallic end of the sheath.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=Parazonium&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
(http://www.realmcollections.com/images/p/Daggers_Parazonium_401158_1514.jpg) (http://www.learmideiromani.it/varie/parazonium02.jpg)
(http://www.td-zlatoust.ru/products_pictures/kb.jpg)
Those really ought to be standard issue for any and all Discordians.
Here's a statue showing the parazonium scabbard worn over the left breast. Women, of course, would have to shift the scabbard belt to between their breasts.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/RCasti998/rhodesstatue.jpg)
Quote from: Guy Incognito on February 22, 2010, 11:52:15 PM
Great post Telarus, interesting stuff! Funny how we can reach opposite conclusions from the same material though, because you said:
Quote from: TelarusGreg and Kerry knew more mythology than they let on.
I personally was thinking that Eris was a bad choice for what they seemed to be going for. Much more of a war goddess, the embodiment of hate not chaos, and hardly a prankster.
Guy, I encourage you to meditate on the opening line of the PD, "Or, How I Found the Goddess and What I Did to Her When I Found Her.".
Quote from: Guy Incognito on February 22, 2010, 11:52:15 PM
I personally was thinking that Eris was a bad choice for what they seemed to be going for. Much more of a war goddess, the embodiment of hate not chaos, and hardly a prankster.
She was that too. Thats the good and bad chaos thing.
Quote from: HesiodSo, after all, there was not one kind of Strife alone, but all over the earth there are two. As for the one, a man would praise her when he came to understand her; but the other is blameworthy: and they are wholly different in nature.
For one fosters evil war and battle, being cruel: her no man loves; but perforce, through the will of the deathless gods, men pay harsh Strife her honour due.
But the other is the elder daughter of dark Night (Nyx), and the son of Cronus who sits above and dwells in the aether, set her in the roots of the earth: and she is far kinder to men. She stirs up even the shiftless to toil; for a man grows eager to work when he considers his neighbour, a rich man who hastens to plough and plant and put his house in good order; and neighbour vies with his neighbour as he hurries after wealth. This Strife is wholesome for men. And potter is angry with potter, and craftsman with craftsman, and beggar is jealous of beggar, and minstrel of minstrel.
Quote from: Telarus on February 23, 2010, 12:31:40 AM
Guy, I encourage you to meditate on the opening line of the PD, "Or, How I Found the Goddess and What I Did to Her When I Found Her.".
Uh oh, do I have to do penance for blaspheming Eris? :D
By the way, which opening line are you referring to?
This one?
GREATER POOP: Are you really serious or what?
MAL-2: Sometimes I take humor seriously. Sometimes I take seriousness humorously. Either way it is irrelevant.
One ofthe later editions thats the title
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 23, 2010, 01:38:10 AM
Quote from: Guy Incognito on February 22, 2010, 11:52:15 PM
I personally was thinking that Eris was a bad choice for what they seemed to be going for. Much more of a war goddess, the embodiment of hate not chaos, and hardly a prankster.
She was that too. Thats the good and bad chaos thing.
Quote from: HesiodSo, after all, there was not one kind of Strife alone, but all over the earth there are two. As for the one, a man would praise her when he came to understand her; but the other is blameworthy: and they are wholly different in nature.
For one fosters evil war and battle, being cruel: her no man loves; but perforce, through the will of the deathless gods, men pay harsh Strife her honour due.
But the other is the elder daughter of dark Night (Nyx), and the son of Cronus who sits above and dwells in the aether, set her in the roots of the earth: and she is far kinder to men. She stirs up even the shiftless to toil; for a man grows eager to work when he considers his neighbour, a rich man who hastens to plough and plant and put his house in good order; and neighbour vies with his neighbour as he hurries after wealth. This Strife is wholesome for men. And potter is angry with potter, and craftsman with craftsman, and beggar is jealous of beggar, and minstrel of minstrel.
I just don't see it. Not that it's a big deal, it's just my personal interpretation, and I understand that there were multiple aspects to the Greek goddess Strife. But I see her as humorless and wrathful-- even in her positive aspects-- particularly in her connection with Ares and her being almost indistinguishable from Enyo.
I've always thought Ananke (Necessity) would have been a better fit in terms of her classical domain, but I suppose her name doesn't have the same ring to it.
Eris sounds cool
Quote from: Guy Incognito on February 23, 2010, 03:47:46 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 23, 2010, 01:38:10 AM
Quote from: Guy Incognito on February 22, 2010, 11:52:15 PM
I personally was thinking that Eris was a bad choice for what they seemed to be going for. Much more of a war goddess, the embodiment of hate not chaos, and hardly a prankster.
She was that too. Thats the good and bad chaos thing.
Quote from: HesiodSo, after all, there was not one kind of Strife alone, but all over the earth there are two. As for the one, a man would praise her when he came to understand her; but the other is blameworthy: and they are wholly different in nature.
For one fosters evil war and battle, being cruel: her no man loves; but perforce, through the will of the deathless gods, men pay harsh Strife her honour due.
But the other is the elder daughter of dark Night (Nyx), and the son of Cronus who sits above and dwells in the aether, set her in the roots of the earth: and she is far kinder to men. She stirs up even the shiftless to toil; for a man grows eager to work when he considers his neighbour, a rich man who hastens to plough and plant and put his house in good order; and neighbour vies with his neighbour as he hurries after wealth. This Strife is wholesome for men. And potter is angry with potter, and craftsman with craftsman, and beggar is jealous of beggar, and minstrel of minstrel.
I just don't see it. Not that it's a big deal, it's just my personal interpretation, and I understand that there were multiple aspects to the Greek goddess Strife. But I see her as humorless and wrathful-- even in her positive aspects-- particularly in her connection with Ares and her being almost indistinguishable from Enyo.
I've always thought Ananke (Necessity) would have been a better fit in terms of her classical domain, but I suppose her name doesn't have the same ring to it.
Isn't there a bit in the PD about how the Greeks got her all wrong?
Also, many Discordians think that Eris is a crazy, vindictive bitch who will fuck with you just to see you suffer, should you be so unfortunate as to catch her attention. She's not the merry prankster with the absurd sense of humor; we are, for being so silly as to worship Our Lady of Confusion.
... theres always Eric the Transexual? :lol: :lol:
Quote from: NotPublished on February 22, 2010, 09:32:09 PM
I think Eris should look like a Proper Lady, but with a million cats
Eris, the Herder of Cats!
Quote from: Telarus on February 22, 2010, 11:51:55 PM
Eris is linked to the Graiai[~Graiae] through her aspect as Enyo and Bellona (Pephredo, Enyo, and Dino, the 3 hags that helped Perseus kill Medusa, who oddly enough was a member of the Gorgons triplicate Stheno, Eurayle, and Medusa, which were "sisters" to the Graiai,).
I believe you are mixing up two different Enyos here. But thanks for everything else.
Quote from: Guy Incognito on February 22, 2010, 11:52:15 PM
I personally was thinking that Eris was a bad choice for what they seemed to be going for. Much more of a war goddess, the embodiment of hate not chaos, and hardly a prankster.
Depends on how you view strife.
You don't consider the Original Snub a prank? Sure, a tough-as-nails bitter amusement prank, but certainly a prank.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 23, 2010, 04:51:22 AM
Quote from: Guy Incognito on February 23, 2010, 03:47:46 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 23, 2010, 01:38:10 AM
Quote from: Guy Incognito on February 22, 2010, 11:52:15 PM
I personally was thinking that Eris was a bad choice for what they seemed to be going for. Much more of a war goddess, the embodiment of hate not chaos, and hardly a prankster.
She was that too. Thats the good and bad chaos thing.
Quote from: HesiodSo, after all, there was not one kind of Strife alone, but all over the earth there are two. As for the one, a man would praise her when he came to understand her; but the other is blameworthy: and they are wholly different in nature.
For one fosters evil war and battle, being cruel: her no man loves; but perforce, through the will of the deathless gods, men pay harsh Strife her honour due.
But the other is the elder daughter of dark Night (Nyx), and the son of Cronus who sits above and dwells in the aether, set her in the roots of the earth: and she is far kinder to men. She stirs up even the shiftless to toil; for a man grows eager to work when he considers his neighbour, a rich man who hastens to plough and plant and put his house in good order; and neighbour vies with his neighbour as he hurries after wealth. This Strife is wholesome for men. And potter is angry with potter, and craftsman with craftsman, and beggar is jealous of beggar, and minstrel of minstrel.
I just don't see it. Not that it's a big deal, it's just my personal interpretation, and I understand that there were multiple aspects to the Greek goddess Strife. But I see her as humorless and wrathful-- even in her positive aspects-- particularly in her connection with Ares and her being almost indistinguishable from Enyo.
I've always thought Ananke (Necessity) would have been a better fit in terms of her classical domain, but I suppose her name doesn't have the same ring to it.
Isn't there a bit in the PD about how the Greeks got her all wrong?
Also, many Discordians think that Eris is a crazy, vindictive bitch who will fuck with you just to see you suffer, should you be so unfortunate as to catch her attention. She's not the merry prankster with the absurd sense of humor; we are, for being so silly as to worship Our Lady of Confusion.
Good point, though I personally see a lot of humour in the Original Snub. Vindictive? Certainly. Humourless? Not so certain.
My personal interpretation:
this goes back to the discussion about how Eris represents strife, and strife means different things in different eras.
The Romans and Greeks were trying to build the first bureaucracies. They were trying to overcome their animal nature and live in cities with money and law and and stuff like that. To them, Eris represented the forces of Disorder, the things which would tear down the walls and drag them back to living like savages.
But now we got the Order virus in a bad way. So Our Lady shed her skin and took a different form. A goofier one. One that is better suited to dismantling what we're doing now.
To phrase it in a less "divine intervention" way -- In the old days, the best threat to the natural order was BARBARIANS. Those savages that sacked rome. But we're not going to destroy the MachineTM by acting like savages anymore. Maybe we can jam it up by not taking it seriously. Now, humor and satire are the best tool against the system. Failing that, it's ignoring the system completely and starting your own shit. Maybe start a kingdom in your living room.
The nature of strife remains unchanged, but her form seems to change with the times.
Quote from: Cramulus on February 23, 2010, 03:17:42 PM
My personal interpretation:
this goes back to the discussion about how Eris represents strife, and strife means different things in different eras.
The Romans and Greeks were trying to build the first bureaucracies. They were trying to overcome their animal nature and live in cities with money and law and and stuff like that. To them, Eris represented the forces of Disorder, the things which would tear down the walls and drag them back to living like savages.
But now we got the Order virus in a bad way. So Our Lady shed her skin and took a different form. A goofier one. One that is better suited to dismantling what we're doing now.
To phrase it in a less "divine intervention" way -- In the old days, the best threat to the natural order was BARBARIANS. Those savages that sacked rome. But we're not going to destroy the MachineTM by acting like savages anymore. Maybe we can jam it up by not taking it seriously. Now, humor and satire are the best tool against the system. Failing that, it's ignoring the system completely and starting your own shit. Maybe start a kingdom in your living room.
The nature of strife remains unchanged, but her form seems to change with the times.
Cram, I think I love you.
very good interpretation, Cram! :D
although, i still think barbarians at the gate are a powerful force for disorder/systems disruption in our modern society.
i think Eris needs both a whoopie cushion in one hand, and a hand grenade in the other...
Why does Eris have to be a warrior?
I would of thought Eris is always causing trouble, even without meaning to. She is always cool calmed and collected, not showing much emotion - but on in inside she is just really bored and enjoys making everyone going wtf, cause its what makes her feel alive anymore. She won't laugh out loud, but doesn't mean she doesn't have a sense of humour.
But, what Cram said is PERFECT!
Cram nailed it.
Quote from: Iptuous on February 23, 2010, 03:41:14 PM
i think Eris needs both a whoopie cushion in one hand, and a hand grenade in the other...
I also like this.
We tend to a historical interpretation here.
I actually did a lot of the research on original ancient Greek attitudes to Eris a few years ago, when I had to take several modules in classical history and literature. And Eris was, historically, seen as a war goddess, among other things.
Eris, like Hermes, seems to have undergone several interpretations based on Greek cultural mores of the time. For example, as a Goddess of Competition (in her "good" aspect, according to Hesiod) would've actually been seen by most 7th and 6th century Greeks as bad, since they considered commerce as a dishonourable livelihood. The exception to this was Attica, which thrived on trade and where there is some evidence of Eris worship. Changes in how Hermes was viewed (changing from a pest-like King of Thieves to a god of communication, wits and commerce) happened in a similar place at a similar time.
Equally, the family to which Eris belonged were not exactly held in highest regard by the Greeks, either. Remember, Ares wasn't just a god of warfare, he was a god of bloody slaughter, a brooding and violent killer, quite unlike Athena, the goddess of rational, wise and prudent warfare. Eris' mythological association with him probably did not help improve her reputation outside of Attica, and the more popular Cult of Hermes quite likely vyed for worshippers that might have gone to Eris in places where she wasn't viewed so negatively. Also remember after the Peloponnesian Wars, the Athenians were not the most popular Greeks in all of Greece, and the Thirty Tyrants stamped down heavily on deviant approaches to worship, as their execution of Socrates seems to indicate. An Erisian cult would've been considered politically dangerous, if it was still active at that time (the proof we have of ancient Eris worship in the Greek mainland ONLY comes from the sixth century).
In Rome, she would've fared little better. The Roman Republic sneered quite openly at Greek culture, seeing it as inferior, indulgent and childish. A Dionysus based cult caused significant political turmoil at one point during the Republic's history, as I recall as well, which didn't improve this attitude to Greek culture. Things changed as the Republic moved towards Empire, Eris was likely equated with Bellona to nullify the more disruptive aspects of her nature and Romanize her.
http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Eris.html
Required historical reading.
You have again proved yourself invaluable Cain, thank you.
Quote from: Hoopla on February 23, 2010, 02:13:59 PM
Quote from: Telarus on February 22, 2010, 11:51:55 PM
Eris is linked to the Graiai[~Graiae] through her aspect as Enyo and Bellona (Pephredo, Enyo, and Dino, the 3 hags that helped Perseus kill Medusa, who oddly enough was a member of the Gorgons triplicate Stheno, Eurayle, and Medusa, which were "sisters" to the Graiai,).
I believe you are mixing up two different Enyos here. But thanks for everything else.
While the 2 Enyos have a distinct narrative (one the battle-queen, waster of cities, one the grey haired Stygian witch who "falls victim" to Perseus) most mythologists agree that they represent the same goddess, mainly through evidence of swan-cult worship.
(http://www.ghostwoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/graeae.jpg)
http://www.ghostwoods.com/2009/12/the-stygian-witches-903/
QuoteThe witches were named Deino, Pemphredo and Enyo. Their names give some indication of their perceived nature – respectively, they mean Dread, Alarm, and Horror. They lived in a dark cavern near the entrance to Tartarus, close to the island where the Gorgons were banished. Enyo in particular lived up to her name; she often appears drenched in blood, and was said to lay waste to entire cities. There are also suggestions that she may have been related to Ares, god of war, either as his mother, sister or daughter, although that is more of a comment on her nature than her genealogy. All three were said to be extremely wise in knowledge, monster-lore and witchcraft.
In the best-known myth about the Stygian Witches, King Polydectes sent the hero Perseus on a mission to get Medusa's head – even in death, the gorgon would still have the power to turn people who saw her to stone. Perseus was aware that he would be aided in his task by a group of nymphs, but didn't know where to find them, or where to look for Medusa. He did know how to find the Graeae however, so he went to visit them, and as they were passing their eye between them, he snatched it from them and demanded that they tell him everything he needed to know, or he wouldn't give it back. The desperate Graeae obeyed and answered all his questions. Despite their assistance, Perseus broke his promise to return the eye, and later threw it into lake Triton.
The Graeae are thought to have been the focus of a group of swan cults across ancient Greece. Strange as it may sound to us now, swans are not just symbolic of beauty, but they were also thought to represent cunning, prophecies (particularly of death), access to other realms, and a range of other, darker things. The Stygian Witches were probably worshipped as the avatars of that set of symbolism – particularly being born grey-haired and with just one eye, and yet also described as swan-like beauties. The missing eyes would have implied sight into other realms, and the grey hair was a symbol of their wisdom and magic power.
http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Graiai.html
The Graiai were usually depicted as old crones. However according to Aeschylus they were Seiren-shaped monsters with the head and arms of old women and the bodies of swans.
The swan imagery has followed 'Bellona' well into the 19th century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellona_%28goddess%29
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Bellona_1865.jpg) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a7/Album_cover_Bellonna.jpg/800px-Album_cover_Bellonna.jpg)
It's supposed that the Roman's aquired Bellona/Duallona through the Etruscans, which were a sea-power at their height and traded with Attica:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3zzu5EjrCrsC&lpg=PA144&ots=neZGB6jrE3&dq=etruscan%20attica%20trade&pg=PA144#v=onepage&q=etruscan%20attica%20trade&f=false
It's also pretty well nailed down that Enyo/Bellona inducted Dionysus into 'the mysteries' (D then took the title of "Enyalius", which was at the same time a name for an old son of Enyo-Ma, and a title of Ares), so I'm not surprised that his cult started some serious turmoil.
Hmmmm.... interesting.
No problem Hoops, I'm just glad it was even readable.
Telarus, I did wonder if there was an Etruscan/Attican link, but I hadn't researched it, so I didn't want to speculate too freely. Also, swans are ringing a bell for some reason...but I can't remember why. I'm pretty sure its not because of Taleb and Black Swans (although that it an amusing case of synchonicity), but I'm not sure what it is. If I wasn't so tired, I might be able to remember.
You mentioned a swan link in the orig post about Attica, leeme check...
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14098.0
(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5861/strifepainterotherworksbt2.png)
Swans surrounding the central image on the plate from Delos.
Oh, and it seems you brought up the Graiai while Hugh was plaing hoity-toity-know-it-all:
Quote from: Cain on January 27, 2006, 12:42:53 PM
Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCThat psychotic crone is actually an aspect of the Wiccan Goddess, unless it is Hekate, unless it is Athena in menopause, unless it is....well take your pick. I tend to think that while Eris may be into the all sweet and nice tickles for those upon whom that approach may work, She is also the deity who provoked Yahweh to be so evil in the Old Testament. It is good to keep this perspective. (The same sweet wind that cools you on a hot day, is the wind that can blow a massive storm which destroys your entire livelihood.)
BAM! In comes Greek geek knowledge. Enyo/Eris was considered one of the Graiai, or the the three Gray Sisters, who were apparently beautiful. They were described as "fair-faced and swan-like" but they's had gray hair from the day they were born and they shared one eye and one tooth, but they lost even that when Perseus stole their eye and later threw it in a lake.
Also ""[Depicted on the chest of Cypselus at Olympia] Aias is fighting a duel with Hektor [in the Trojan War], according to the challenge, and between the pair stands Eris in the form of a most repulsive woman. Another figure of Eris is in the sanctuary of Ephesian Artemis; Kalliphon of Samos included it in his picture of the battle at the ships of the Greeks." -Pausanias, Guide to Greece
5.19.1
However, I tend to think she was probably in good shape as she was hauling dead bodies around the battlefield of Troy and she was said (in Dionysiaca) to look like Rheia, the loverattle goddess.
(http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/000Images/qrim/rhea1cybele1617.jpg)
Rather like the above, only probably with a nose and alot of armour, covered in blood.
Quote from: Hoopla on February 22, 2010, 09:03:30 PM
Funny that they describe her in the PD as clutching a dagger to her bosom, but I've not found a single image of her in this guise.
sinbad: legend of the seven seas, she carries a dagger,
(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/6692/41578390.jpg)
talks about getting jiggly with chaos while having a bubblebath
and plots from above the earth...
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2669/sinbad1369.jpg)
so the imaginary between Minerva and Bellona...
are similar with only difference begin she carries a dagger?
and I thought Medusa was a servant of Athena until Poseidon raped her while she was alone in the temple
In some legends, yes. In others, not so much.
Quote from: Telarus on February 23, 2010, 10:34:52 PM
You mentioned a swan link in the orig post about Attica, leeme check...
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14098.0
(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5861/strifepainterotherworksbt2.png)
Swans surrounding the central image on the plate from Delos.
Oh, and it seems you brought up the Graiai while Hugh was plaing hoity-toity-know-it-all:
Quote from: Cain on January 27, 2006, 12:42:53 PM
Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCThat psychotic crone is actually an aspect of the Wiccan Goddess, unless it is Hekate, unless it is Athena in menopause, unless it is....well take your pick. I tend to think that while Eris may be into the all sweet and nice tickles for those upon whom that approach may work, She is also the deity who provoked Yahweh to be so evil in the Old Testament. It is good to keep this perspective. (The same sweet wind that cools you on a hot day, is the wind that can blow a massive storm which destroys your entire livelihood.)
BAM! In comes Greek geek knowledge. Enyo/Eris was considered one of the Graiai, or the the three Gray Sisters, who were apparently beautiful. They were described as "fair-faced and swan-like" but they's had gray hair from the day they were born and they shared one eye and one tooth, but they lost even that when Perseus stole their eye and later threw it in a lake.
Also ""[Depicted on the chest of Cypselus at Olympia] Aias is fighting a duel with Hektor [in the Trojan War], according to the challenge, and between the pair stands Eris in the form of a most repulsive woman. Another figure of Eris is in the sanctuary of Ephesian Artemis; Kalliphon of Samos included it in his picture of the battle at the ships of the Greeks." -Pausanias, Guide to Greece
5.19.1
However, I tend to think she was probably in good shape as she was hauling dead bodies around the battlefield of Troy and she was said (in Dionysiaca) to look like Rheia, the loverattle goddess.
(http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/000Images/qrim/rhea1cybele1617.jpg)
Rather like the above, only probably with a nose and alot of armour, covered in blood.
That doesn't sound like me at all. That sounds like someone who actually did research.
I should really keep notes of things like this, or else I just forget it all. Thanks.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 22, 2010, 11:20:48 PM
(http://www.theoi.com/image/N15.3Eris.jpg)
From this page:
http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Eris.html
Pretty fucking cool.
I love the look on her face on this one. She does not give a shit at all.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 22, 2010, 11:25:46 PM
I noticed one thing for sure, which is that Eris is DUSKY and has CURLY HAIR!
And kind of a big nose.
I was also interested to note that the contents of Pandora's Box were Eris' children.
It wasn't a box, it was a jar. And I thought it was empty (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=24025.0). (Shameless self-promotion? Mebbe...)
Regardless, this thread is awesome.
Quote from: dimo on February 25, 2010, 04:14:54 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 22, 2010, 11:25:46 PM
I noticed one thing for sure, which is that Eris is DUSKY and has CURLY HAIR!
And kind of a big nose.
I was also interested to note that the contents of Pandora's Box were Eris' children.
It wasn't a box, it was a jar. And I thought it was empty (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=24025.0). (Shameless self-promotion? Mebbe...)
Regardless, this thread is awesome.
It was a container, presumably round, made out of clay, with a lid. I have a salt box which is round and made out of wood, with a lid. Have you ever wondered why we call it "canning" when rather than putting food into cans, we put it into glass jars? For whatever reason, rather than calling it "Pandora's Can" which is the obvious and most funny interpretation, the most common interpretation is to refer to that container as a box.
You know what's funny is there's another container we often refer to as a box, and it doesn't even have a LID. Plus, it's made out of meat. What an oddly versatile concept, this "box".
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 25, 2010, 04:27:33 AM
Quote from: dimo on February 25, 2010, 04:14:54 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 22, 2010, 11:25:46 PM
I noticed one thing for sure, which is that Eris is DUSKY and has CURLY HAIR!
And kind of a big nose.
I was also interested to note that the contents of Pandora's Box were Eris' children.
It wasn't a box, it was a jar. And I thought it was empty (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=24025.0). (Shameless self-promotion? Mebbe...)
Regardless, this thread is awesome.
It was a container, presumably round, made out of clay, with a lid. I have a salt box which is round and made out of wood, with a lid. Have you ever wondered why we call it "canning" when rather than putting food into cans, we put it into glass jars? For whatever reason, rather than calling it "Pandora's Can" which is the obvious and most funny interpretation, the most common interpretation is to refer to that container as a box.
You know what's funny is there's another container we often refer to as a box, and it doesn't even have a LID. Plus, it's made out of meat. What an oddly versatile concept, this "box".
Point.
mmmm... meatbox...
Hey, this thread is really great! Excellent thoughts all around.
I agree with what Nigel and Hoopla have been saying, I think I've been looking at the PD Eris as a good natured, merry prankster and there is really nothing there to indicate she's supposed to be nice or mean well. She's just a vindictive bitch goddess.
And that's some heavy research that Cain and Telarus did, it's making for some very stimulating reading :mrgreen: That raises some good points as to the real nature of Eris as she was authentically worshipped by the Greeks, before the Roman civil religion homogenized and sanitized her. I'm reading through that theoi.com article right now, good site!
And Cram's post was a big :mittens:
We should distill some of the great factual info here into and article for 23AE.
Quote from: Guy Incognito on February 25, 2010, 06:49:10 AM
[snip]
We should distill some of the great factual info here into and article for 23AE http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hellenismos-L/
because theres a whole bunch of weirdos there who would really get off on a load of shit about some greek goddess - you never know they might even be dumb enough to, you know, worship her . . . You all seem to be having such fun ITT digging for bits of info about some mythical ancient greek myth who just happens to share a name with a concept floated by some contemporary guys who had some interesting notions about living in contemporary society. Anyway long story short. You have convinced me - I am going to change my worldview and move on in my spiritual practice. I can't believe I was so mistaken, for decades, so I too have been looking for a new way to view Eris:- http://erisfly.en.ec21.com/
deep religio-social insight . . . it was the Toxic Blobs that really touched my soul
I don't know if you actually read the PD, but the surprising thing to me was that the authors actually seem very familiar with classical Eris. They didn't make her up at all; they just claimed that the Greeks had been mistaken in their perception, and re-styled her for their own era.
Works for me.
I recall reading another little thing Cain put together regarding classical information he pieced together that I very much enjoyed reading. Let me see if I can find it for those who are interested.
Seems it was already bumped...
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 26, 2010, 04:38:18 PM
I don't know if you actually read the PD, but the surprising thing to me was that the authors actually seem very familiar with classical Eris. They didn't make her up at all; they just claimed that the Greeks had been mistaken in their perception, and re-styled her for their own era.
Works for me.
Works for me too, has done ever since I read the PD. And just as soon as I get time slipped back to ancient greece I will reconsider my relationship to Eris but probably not until then . . .
(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/5339/230pxeris.png) (http://img35.imageshack.us/i/230pxeris.png/)
Adventures of Billy and Mandy was it?
Yes. They made her blond. wtf :argh!:
Its how I've always pictured her actually
not sure id picture her as a cheerleader, then again how else to get really close to the field
the missing front tooth is unique to maxwell atom's eris
A sarcastic cheerleader who everyone can mistake as peppy? Thats psychotic material there
Psychotic as in detatched from reality, or psychopathic?
/Rainy Day Pixie, pedant and really real psychotic!
Psychopathic has a better ring to it - we'll go with that!
i wonder if Eris is a peplos or chiton kind of goddess?