PRESENTING THE BEST MARTIAL ART EVER: BARTITSU
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Copy_of_Montage.jpg/441px-Copy_of_Montage.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu
As used by the famous Sherlock Holmes and, presumably, young english men in bars whenever tit's become an issue.
As this picture reminds us, never mess with a guy with a big mustache.
BARTITS OR GTFO.
WRONG.
FLAMING SWORDCHUCKS WIELDED NUNCHAKU-STYLE (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showthread.php?t=36835)
Quote from: Remington on March 23, 2010, 04:49:57 AM
WRONG.
FLAMING SWORDCHUCKS WIELDED NUNCHAKU-STYLE (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showthread.php?t=36835)
I thought my flaming nunchaku was awesome... but that is epic.
Those are enormous wicks, but I'm still pretty sure he shouldn't need gloves for them.
I think I need to make some of those with actual blades in them somewhere. For added awesome.
Pics will be posted.
This is pretty fucking sweet.
Think of this, say, in comparison to Eskrima.
If the English during that period had to resist foreign invaders over 200 years... :cn:
they might be able to touch the Filipino stick art.
...
don't even bring up knives.
I would never test in the Philippines.
Now I have yet another reason to grow the mustache to Epic Levels.
And, to get one of those nifty straw hats.
i have long wanted to learn some form of martial art. i think one that, at least incorporates some stick/cane fighting would be preferable.
anybody able to weigh in on experience with stick fighting?
It's more difficult than it looks, especially the filipino stick fighting. You bash the fuck out of your fingers until you get the rythms right.
Cane fighting is a bit easier, but you have to make sure it doesn't get in the way.
you don't practice with some kind of hand guards?!
i'm imagining the staff fighting scene in Robin Hood: Men in Tights....
I didn't... for the filipino stuff, you really needed the dexterity in your fingers, and any sort of protective gloves would hinder that.
But for the Robin Hood staff stuff, you should probably ask a larper. Or a Kung Fu dude.
Some schools teach stick fighting only as rehearsed forms / kata. Others (Youtube "Dog brothers") do it as a sparring exercise.
IMHO, rehearsed rythms or forms are good practice, but actual at speed sparring, even with light contact, is needed to get a sense for the timing, targeting / placement of blows, and learning how to keep your range.
You can use sticks decently with hockey gloves on, and they are a good idea if you want to learn, but have desire to use your hands for the rest of your life.
I've seen the Dog Bros. stuff before. it's impressive.
i'll have to look around and see what we have in the DFW area....
This... is truly amazing.
Quote from: Lysergic on March 23, 2010, 04:18:42 AM
PRESENTING THE BEST MARTIAL ART EVER: BARTITSU
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Copy_of_Montage.jpg/441px-Copy_of_Montage.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu
As used by the famous Sherlock Holmes and, presumably, young english men in bars whenever tit's become an issue.
As this picture reminds us, never mess with a guy with a big mustache.
Reminds me of the recent Sherlock Holmes movie.
Quote from: LMNO on March 23, 2010, 02:18:34 PM
I didn't... for the filipino stuff, you really needed the dexterity in your fingers, and any sort of protective gloves would hinder that.
But for the Robin Hood staff stuff, you should probably ask a larper. Or a Kung Fu dude.
I trained with the bō staff when doing Tae Kwon Do, and we didn't use any gloves or anything either. Because if you're the sort of sissy who drops your weapon when someone hits it hard, you shouldn't be trying to use one in the first place.
Quote from: Cain on March 23, 2010, 03:19:35 PM
I trained with the bō staff when doing Tae Kwon Do, and we didn't use any gloves or anything either. Because if you're the sort of sissy who drops your weapon when someone hits it hard, you shouldn't be trying to use one in the first place.
your stick or your hand?
Both, though I was thinking mostly of the stick.
If you don't train in the sort of conditions you would expect to use the weapon in, you won't use it properly. I would bite someone's hands off if they had a weapon and I got close enough, so you can sure as hell bet I'd try and break their hand if I was armed. If you can't move them fast enough to avoid being hit under controlled conditions, you sure as hell won't be doing it after an adrenaline dump.
Quote from: Cain on March 23, 2010, 03:30:46 PM
Both, though I was thinking mostly of the stick.
If you don't train in the sort of conditions you would expect to use the weapon in, you won't use it properly. I would bite someone's hands off if they had a weapon and I got close enough, so you can sure as hell bet I'd try and break their hand if I was armed. If you can't move them fast enough to avoid being hit under controlled conditions, you sure as hell won't be doing it after an adrenaline dump.
while that may be true, i would think there is a place for solo training (routines), training with protective gear, and training without protective gear.
i would think that a gradient of lethality would be a more appropriate way to come to skill than 'Step One: DEATHMATCH!'
Iptuous,
sissy.
I like your point, Cain. I've practice delivering kicks wearing shoes and boots or drawing a stick or knife with gloved hands for this reason.
At the same time, if you're training at more than half speed / half power, you can end up with debilitating injuries from accidents as well as simple mistakes.
Personal experience:
Even with protection, I've gotten fingernails exploded and joints sprained. Blocking with your hands hurts, even through 16 gauge stainless, padding, and leather gloves. I've seen novices learn not to do it FAST. Regardless of training quality, I'd rather err on the side of keeping my writing / typing ability.
Big protective gloves are a pain in the ass too. -4 to Dex., which I get back when I spar in ways that only require light gloves, or nothing.
TKD is particularly bad for debilitating injuries.
TTM,
thinks impact training is a stupid idea.
I just got the Actionflex Hit Series Escrima sticks (2, and 2 of the Hit series Swords, and 2 of their shields) from my girlfriend for my birthday. Got a chance to play with them with my sensei on Fri.
I've got to say that these are some of the best professional quality training sticks I've ever worked with. Don't need gloves, and the padding and flex action will leave your fingers sore on a hand strike, but probably not busted/bruised. Took a few really good shots to the hip with an Escrima stick, and was sore while walking around for about a day.
http://www.centurymartialarts.com/specials/New_Products/ActionFlex_HIT_Series_Escrima.aspx
(http://www.centurymartialarts.com/portals/0/Images/Products/12821-LG.JPG) (http://www.centurymartialarts.com/portals/0/Images/Products/12687-TN.JPG)
(I know a website based out of San Diego that will give you a 20% discount on most Century stuff).
Oh, and I definitely recommend Escrima as a weapon art. Once you grok the escrima "angles of attacks/footwork/avoidance/disarms" it become a lot easier to see how other styles use these concepts adjusted for empty hand work. Also, the simple fact that you use a stick changes so much, in that you are no longer going for cuts/stabs and want to target joints and hard bony body-points. With a stick, I'd rather hit your hand than your forearm (I'd rather break something than wait for the bruising to sap your ability), or your ribs rather than your belly. With a blade, you go for other target areas.
I train with wasters & federschwerter (wooden swords and blunt steel swords). Getting rapped on the knuckles hurts. If you're blocking with the hilt you're doing it wrong, and the reminder helps you learn faster.
My personal favorite martial art in terms of weapon (stick, sword and knife) and all round awesome defensive martial art, is Aikido.
These guys are so awesome that MMA won't let them enter their competitions. SRSLY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RaUpEMpxuY&feature=PlayList&p=25D8E75D8B0DFA53&index=0&playnext=1
Look at the dude attack the other dude with a weapon and instead of defending with his sword he just takes the weapon off his opponent at 2:51!
I'd actually like to see a real fight between that guy and, say, Chuck Lidell.
In that video, everything is planned out, including the falls.
Aikido is very different from other martial arts. I'm not certain if even calling it a "martial" art is appropriate sometimes.
Personal practice in it, and hearsay; you're not going to use it to win fights, and it's not going to give you the immediate skillset that jiujitsu or MMA would. Once you've been at it for 15-20 years though, and have gotten used to free practice over rehearsed forms, you're damn ahrd to touch as long as you have room to move.
Even the mindset using Aikido influenced or similar techniques is more like playing a trickster than a fighter.
This.
I love Aikido, and have studied it a bit (haven't stepped into a dojo due to time/money, but so much of it applies to any practice you do that I have had a chance to practice some of the Ideas, if not the exact techniques.) Much of my conception of Chi came from my Aikido+Zen Meditation practices.
That said.... there is always Aikijutsu (the /combat/ form split off from Aikido, do some video searches). Another problem is that certain lineages of Aikido have been "dummed down", where moves that are practiced to get the idea behind them into muscle memory and then should be abandoned for the master level technique are instead just taught as an effective technique (these entry level techs usually have a glaring opening/weakness but are usefull for understanding the circular/spherical chi flow and how to "enter" into an opponents movement in order to blend with it). This leads to the "dancing in fancy pants" syndrome that Richter and LMNO allude to. This is also why I have avoided commercial Aikido dojos, as until recently I wouldn't have been able to tell if the one I got was any good.
I've always been a fan of Iaido, I think its Fancy .. I forget the name of the other one, Battou something something - but its to do with concealed weapons
*edit* Ah, its called Batto Jutsu.
I like Hapkido (Korean "boxing"). Many joint locks, like Aikido but with a different focus: In Aikido you disable your opponent without causing permanent harm (preferably). In Hap-ki-do you disable your opponent by breaking things so they can't do whatever they were trying to do. People with broken wrists & elbows can't punch, and a broken knee is a major impediment to kicking. Likewise a man without functional fingers and his eyes gouged out will likely have trouble aiming and firing a gun. Also quite a few kicking techniques.
Quote from: LMNO on March 24, 2010, 02:32:38 PM
I'd actually like to see a real fight between that guy and, say, Chuck Lidell.
In that video, everything is planned out, including the falls.
True, in that video, since it's a demonstration video, there will be a lot of pre-rehearshed moves.
But once you earn your blackbelt you do "Randori" more and more which is freestyle unprepared against multiple attackers.
Don't mistake a prerehearsed video with it being ineffective... it's amazingly effective once you are accomplished in it.
I like to think of Aikido as a "soft" martial art and most every other martial art out there as "hard" martial arts.
Don't let the names mislead you though, I like to think of it akin to D+D in that a "fighter" class is a "hard" class and is effective and useful from early levels, and that the wizard is a "soft" class in that in the beginning and for quite a while, it will seem quite weak and ineffective, but once you get to the higher levels, you're nearly unstoppable and can wipe the floor with the fighter by lifting your little finger.
Quote from: LMNO on March 23, 2010, 02:18:34 PM
I didn't... for the filipino stuff, you really needed the dexterity in your fingers, and any sort of protective gloves would hinder that.
But for the Robin Hood staff stuff, you should probably ask a larper. Or a Kung Fu dude.
I've used a big staff a bit in an anachronist group. Fingerwork didn't really come into it, it was arms and a ton of footwork.
I've practiced Hokutoryu Jujutsu for a few years and it has proven itself rather useful, but it hasn't spread too far outside the borders of Finland, I guess.
In actual self-defence/ass-kicking though, the emphasis isn't on the details of each style or the techniques you've reheased. Any "serious" martial art can be as good as the other, for what you really need to learn are mainly things like getting accustomed to the situation, being able to react to the attack, thinking fast, etc. The basic ways to hurt people don't change, and while there are lots of tricks that are probably good to know, the winner of an average brawl isn't necessarily the one with years of practice in epic power kung fu, but rather the participant who "dares" to beat the living shit out of the other one; people with little experience seldom fight as hard as they could, because they subconciously don't want to hurt another person so badly. People need a lot of conditioning to be effective, and it's hard to predict how you'll act before you get into the situation where you need to defend yourself - some people forget the fancy techniques almost completely and just rely on their instincts, some manage to keep calmer and make use of all the nice stuff they've learned.
I, of course, am a pacifist entirely, and therefore do not support solving problems by violence. But, um, you never know, right?
Oh, wait, the actual reason I started writing here: I think Sexy Commando (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BefKgtQA4ek) is even cooler than moustaches, talking about the best martial art ever. The main strategy is to confuse the opponent before attacking. Effective and deadly, oh yes.
Man this is awesome http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhNubQ2cdZo
Most other two handed weapons can behave like a staff. (Spears, axes, glaives, swords - providing they have unsharpened bits, or you have heavy glvoes on and aren't handling a razor). They only have extra, confusing bits. Staff technique is at the basis of all of it, and if you're playing a game that allows it, the more you can use that sword like a staff, the more simple, effective techniques you'll have at hand.
Quote from: Richter on March 25, 2010, 12:33:53 PM
Most other two handed weapons can behave like a staff. (Spears, axes, glaives, swords - providing they have unsharpened bits, or you have heavy glvoes on and aren't handling a razor). They only have extra, confusing bits. Staff technique is at the basis of all of it, and if you're playing a game that allows it, the more you can use that sword like a staff, the more simple, effective techniques you'll have at hand.
Staff is very, very different from sword. It's similar to spear/glaive/other polearms, but swords are a whole different beast. You're sort-of correct, but on the same level as saying that a rubber ducky is the same as a container ship: both float.
As for the stuff about different martial arts being similar, that's very true. Some schools have more techniques from certain areas than others (grappling, punching, kicking, blocking, dodging, etc) but within those areas they are largely the same.
Quote from: PeregrineBF on March 25, 2010, 08:57:49 PM
Quote from: Richter on March 25, 2010, 12:33:53 PM
Most other two handed weapons can behave like a staff. (Spears, axes, glaives, swords - providing they have unsharpened bits, or you have heavy glvoes on and aren't handling a razor). They only have extra, confusing bits. Staff technique is at the basis of all of it, and if you're playing a game that allows it, the more you can use that sword like a staff, the more simple, effective techniques you'll have at hand.
Staff is very, very different from sword. It's similar to spear/glaive/other polearms, but swords are a whole different beast. You're sort-of correct, but on the same level as saying that a rubber ducky is the same as a container ship: both float.
Don't think I clarified this enough, my mistake.
You're correct, certainly, for one handed swords, katana, etc. For two - handers, at range, absolutely, hands on the handle - no reason to use staff techniques, you can still use it as a sword. Renaissance longsword manuals, describing close range fighting, especially the German, involves gripping the blade, and utilizing the entire weapon in a very quarterstaff - like method. Once you've switched to such grip, there are only so many ways a human body can move a straight weapon, so I say staff technique applies.
Quote from: Richter on March 25, 2010, 09:23:52 PM
Quote from: PeregrineBF on March 25, 2010, 08:57:49 PM
Quote from: Richter on March 25, 2010, 12:33:53 PM
Most other two handed weapons can behave like a staff. (Spears, axes, glaives, swords - providing they have unsharpened bits, or you have heavy glvoes on and aren't handling a razor). They only have extra, confusing bits. Staff technique is at the basis of all of it, and if you're playing a game that allows it, the more you can use that sword like a staff, the more simple, effective techniques you'll have at hand.
Staff is very, very different from sword. It's similar to spear/glaive/other polearms, but swords are a whole different beast. You're sort-of correct, but on the same level as saying that a rubber ducky is the same as a container ship: both float.
Don't think I clarified this enough, my mistake.
You're correct, certainly, for one handed swords, katana, etc. For two - handers, at range, absolutely, hands on the handle - no reason to use staff techniques, you can still use it as a sword. Renaissance longsword manuals, describing close range fighting, especially the German, involves gripping the blade, and utilizing the entire weapon in a very quarterstaff - like method. Once you've switched to such grip, there are only so many ways a human body can move a straight weapon, so I say staff technique applies.
Yes and no. My knowledge is in Hapkido for staff and German manuals for sword, and there is some use of gripping the blade, but it's still different. Those moves are quite rare, and mostly use only the quillions as a striking surface, not the pommel. The equivalent move with a staff would be using the end of the staff, closer to the pommel of the sword.
Of course, the pommel was used, but almost always with both hands on the hilt (from what I've seen, mostly Liechtenauer and Talhoffer.) That's not to say there aren't exceptions of course. EG the following picture from Talhoffer.
(http://www.thearma.org/2Talh21459.jpg)
Though from a quick check, out of 58 illustrations in Talhoffer's 1459 fechtbuch "Fight Earnestly (http://"http://www.thearma.org/Fight-Earnestly.htm")" involving swords only 6 include such a move with both hands off the hilt, and one of those is illustrating the defense against such a strike.
Quote from: PeregrineBF on March 26, 2010, 05:31:25 AM
(http://www.thearma.org/2Talh21459.jpg)
I'm gonna go out on a limb, but the guy in the right is
fucked.
Really depends. Defense and offense are paradoxical. Every move had some theoretical counter, every counter move has a counter, and so on.
IRL this translates to not just skill and training deciding things, but also level of fitness and level of fatgiue. People still get tired, sloppy, and weak, froget the right technique, etc.
But, come on.
No armor, holding the sword by the blade, holding the sword upside down... it looks like he's about to jam the point into his own crotch. All the guy in the armor has to do is hit the other guy's sword really hard, and the dude's thumbs are gonna get chopped off.
Quote from: PeregrineBF on March 26, 2010, 05:31:25 AM
Quote from: Richter on March 25, 2010, 09:23:52 PM
Quote from: PeregrineBF on March 25, 2010, 08:57:49 PM
Quote from: Richter on March 25, 2010, 12:33:53 PM
Most other two handed weapons can behave like a staff. (Spears, axes, glaives, swords - providing they have unsharpened bits, or you have heavy glvoes on and aren't handling a razor). They only have extra, confusing bits. Staff technique is at the basis of all of it, and if you're playing a game that allows it, the more you can use that sword like a staff, the more simple, effective techniques you'll have at hand.
Staff is very, very different from sword. It's similar to spear/glaive/other polearms, but swords are a whole different beast. You're sort-of correct, but on the same level as saying that a rubber ducky is the same as a container ship: both float.
Don't think I clarified this enough, my mistake.
You're correct, certainly, for one handed swords, katana, etc. For two - handers, at range, absolutely, hands on the handle - no reason to use staff techniques, you can still use it as a sword. Renaissance longsword manuals, describing close range fighting, especially the German, involves gripping the blade, and utilizing the entire weapon in a very quarterstaff - like method. Once you've switched to such grip, there are only so many ways a human body can move a straight weapon, so I say staff technique applies.
Yes and no. My knowledge is in Hapkido for staff and German manuals for sword, and there is some use of gripping the blade, but it's still different. Those moves are quite rare, and mostly use only the quillions as a striking surface, not the pommel. The equivalent move with a staff would be using the end of the staff, closer to the pommel of the sword.
Of course, the pommel was used, but almost always with both hands on the hilt (from what I've seen, mostly Liechtenauer and Talhoffer.) That's not to say there aren't exceptions of course. EG the following picture from Talhoffer.
(http://www.thearma.org/2Talh21459.jpg)
Though from a quick check, out of 58 illustrations in Talhoffer's 1459 fechtbuch "Fight Earnestly (http://"http://www.thearma.org/Fight-Earnestly.htm")" involving swords only 6 include such a move with both hands off the hilt, and one of those is illustrating the defense against such a strike.
We need to talk shop on this subject if we ever meet IRL. It's a headache trying to shoehorn concepts of martial arts into text.
Quote from: LMNO on March 26, 2010, 12:25:43 PM
But, come on.
No armor, holding the sword by the blade, holding the sword upside down... it looks like he's about to jam the point into his own crotch. All the guy in the armor has to do is hit the other guy's sword really hard, and the dude's thumbs are gonna get chopped off.
I have seen people sword themselves in the balls like that before. :lulz:
The unarmored dude could also be faking the blow high, planning to sweep low and hook out a leg if the armored guy goes for the high block.
Quote from: Richter on March 26, 2010, 12:47:34 PM
Quote from: LMNO on March 26, 2010, 12:25:43 PM
But, come on.
No armor, holding the sword by the blade, holding the sword upside down... it looks like he's about to jam the point into his own crotch. All the guy in the armor has to do is hit the other guy's sword really hard, and the dude's thumbs are gonna get chopped off.
I have seen people sword themselves in the balls like that before. :lulz:
The unarmored dude could also be faking the blow high, planning to sweep low and hook out a leg if the armored guy goes for the high block.
It's more practical than you'd think.
First, 4-6 inches of the blade beyond the hilt weren't sharpened, so his (unarmoured) right hand is fine.
Second, his left hand is only used to guide the blow, and isn't gripping the sword. (Well, shouldn't be.)
Third, the tip will pass his hip on the left side if he's doing it right, not go into his balls. That would be a rather stupid move.
Fourth, look at the pommel & quillions. It's a mace. What was the most effective weapon against armour? Oh, right, a mace. The move isn't a feint, it's an attempt to crush the opponent's helm & skull.
End result: If the guy on the right connects, guy on the left is fucked. Otherwise, guy on the right is fucked.
@Richter: about where do you live? I'm in the San Diego region of southern California.
The guy out of armor also has light weight and mobility on his side. I usually practice in chain, vambraces, pauldrons, greaves and a helm, which are heavy enough. Full plate and harness is a pain. Right on though, he's restricted to targeting chinks at joints (groin, neck,armpits), REALLY solid blows, or mortschlag as shown to stab or scramble the guy inside the armor.
There's actually a combination from another manual that shows the hooking trip I mentioned, that follows back into bashing the head with the quillions as follow- through. Works either way, if you can out - fake your target :)
I'm in Rhode Island. By all means drop a line if you'll ever be out this way. I will let board folks know if I ever end up pointing towards Southern Cal.