I wasn't very eloquent about trying to present this idea before, so instead of trying to cut through 20+ pages of idiocy to revive the first thread I started on the topic, I'm making this shiny new one. I'd really like everyone's feedback on this, provided it's thoughtful rather than some lame attempt at a snarky one-liner.
I think the problem is that for whatever reason, PD has become less a place where people trade ideas and thoughts about what's going on in the world around them, how their interactions with the world around them effect themselves and others, and how we might be able to harness and/or direct that and more about presenting everything from a personal and purely self-centered framework.
IOW, we used to bitch about our jobs/politicians/etc. and apply these gripes to a larger framework or use them to build to an overarching point about something besides ourselves, now we just bitch about our jobs/politicians/etc. BECAUSE of how it effects us. It's one thing to occasionally interject an interesting or amusing purely personal story into the dialogue. It reminds us that we're some bizarre permutation of a tribe and that we're here to help each other progress and build. But when that kind of dialogue overtakes everything else and becomes the FOCUS of the site, we've really literally become nothing more than "facebook for weirdos". The foundation of this site is the desire to understand the processes that rule our environment well enough to be able to use them for our own ends (even if we have wildly differing ends amongst ourtselves), not the desire to know what you and your boyfriend did last night or what petty personal tribulations you are going through on a daily basis. I apologize if that's not what some of you want out of PD.com, but you are free to discuss all of those things amongst yourselves via PM, or IRC, or, you know, some other forum that's meant for that sort of thing. I used to think that unfettered growth of this site was to be desired for its own sake, now I realize that was just ego talking for me and that really this place might be better off (in the context of it's original stated purpose) being smaller and leaner. I don't know what can be done to impose this, and I'm not certain that I should even attempt to impose anything here anymore, but I want everyone to be very clear about what my problem is, at the very least.
CP'd from Dok Howl's thread, because it's my sincere thoughts.
QuoteImpossible, the majority of people here are hungry for new ideas, and would die (or worse) without them. This is PD. We rewrote and vastly improved the holy book of the craziest religion on earth with the BIP. We indoctrinated Steven Colbert into the Illuminati. People here are responsible for one of the shadowiest paramilitary organizations on the internet.
Basically, PD fucking rules. Things like this are just the parts that don't kick ass.
I'm going to go post a new idea.
I think the problem is the Law of Eristic Escalation.
I think that the more heavily the content is policed (whether via social pressure or outright modding) the less people will invest or share ideas.
I think that the harder you try to "make" the board what you want it to be, the farther away from that ideal it will drift, until people start leaving. The only way to really make the board what you want it to be is to start threads that are about what you want to see happening.
Personally, I like the media jakes. I want to continue writing letters to editors. I'd like to see a whole lot of us follow through with writing to Playboy. Just who the hell are these "Discordians", anyway?
I'll start a thread.
I'm seeing patterns in what's happening. Like when you spar with the same person for awhile, and you instinctively react to their favorite tricks before they pull them.
Mixing things up and trying new tricks will help, but we fall back into the routines. They're easy pitfalls to hit.
It's like relationship therapy or some shit. Let's get romantic with our BS.
While I agree with ECH about using PD as a pool of ideas and resources, I'm afraid I haven't been that good at adhering to that.
Looking back at the past 6 months, I think my two biggest contributions have been The Spider Project and the SME 30 Day series, one of which is simply re-telling other people's creative output, and the other being partially fictionalized stories about my day-to-day life.
I have to admit, the Aneristic Delusions subforum is one of my favorites, and I read it voraciously. And I'm interested in new approaches to psychology and philosophy, even at the risk of it turning into spaggy mush.
The problem is that I both really like the site because of the new ideas and concepts it often presents, and at the same time don't have many new ideas and concepts to offer.
Quote from: Sigmatic on March 24, 2010, 06:29:27 PM
CP'd from Dok Howl's thread, because it's my sincere thoughts.
QuoteImpossible, the majority of people here are hungry for new ideas, and would die (or worse) without them. This is PD. We rewrote and vastly improved the holy book of the craziest religion on earth with the BIP. We indoctrinated Steven Colbert into the Illuminati. People here are responsible for one of the shadowiest paramilitary organizations on the internet.
Basically, PD fucking rules. Things like this are just the parts that don't kick ass.
I'm going to go post a new idea.
I'd like to agree with you, but I'm no longer sure that your first premise is true. Also, though I'm as proud of everything that everyone on this site has accomplished as anyone is, we can't rest on our laurels. The input is much appreciated, though. One thing I'd really like to see ITT is feedback from the people that ordinarily stay out of these discussions. It seems to me that the people who tend to respond are the people who fall into the "original purpose" camp (terms being used very loosely to save me a bunch of typing), and though they're usually saying what I want to hear, "what I want to hear" is, in this case, not ALL of what I want to hear.
I think the problem is that the assumed existence of a problem with PD perpetuated itself into a real problem. There's Stuff, there's Fluff. Even if the
only people here were highly productive, that would be the case. When it's turned into a stuff
vs. fluff thing is when it turns into a downhill ride. Then people on both sides go out of their way to "defeat" their presumed (often falsely) opponents, while those who would like to remain on the stuff/fluff middle ground get hammered with countless amounts of threadkacks in topics they were interested in, and possibly would have participated in. I agree, people should want to be more involved in a constructive way. I don't, however, agree that this is a serious problem that needs anything other than a little
time (see:
not "drastic measures") and every one should chill out.
QuoteWHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON'T SOUND WELL.
"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe."
WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO?
"But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it."
OH. WELL, THEN STOP.
Argh. You're totally misinterpreting the problem as I see it. The problem is not "stuff vs. fluff".
QuoteIt's one thing to occasionally interject an interesting or amusing purely personal story into the dialogue. It reminds us that we're some bizarre permutation of a tribe and that we're here to help each other progress and build. But when that kind of dialogue overtakes everything else and becomes the FOCUS of the site, we've really literally become nothing more than "facebook for weirdos".
I know I haven't been around much in the last handful of months (mostly due to IRL issues), but I can definitely feel what ECH is saying with this.
I have a somewhat different perspective on this since I've only been hopping on occasionally (once every couple weeks for a long stretch) and have only recently been coming back every day to take a look-see around the boards, mostly the political subforum and Apple Talk. What I see is the same posts from the same people saying the same things in the same way, and trying to frame it as a new exchange of ideas, rather than as a rehash of the same argument/discussion/debate/shit-flinging that's been going on for months.
While there are some new posts (the Spiders thing, the Richter/Dok Howl back-and-forths to name a couple that stood out to me) with some new presentations and ways of approaching the daily whatever, I've felt that the boards have been more and more mired in a seemingly rote exchange where I can almost exactly predict what any given poster will be saying before I even read what the post actually is.
That isn't fun for me, so I have been drifting away from here. Which is too bad in many ways - the Memorial Day meet-up a while back was GREAT and the NYC spag invasion of Boston was super fucking fun ... because we weren't just regurgitating the same shit that we always spew (and I'm definitely not saying I'm not guilty of this - the fact that I saw myself falling into this pattern was definitely another factor that influenced my distancing from PD) but we were out in the real world DOING SHIT, together with like-minded freaks and weirdos who also wanted to DO SHIT. I wouldn't have done the shit we did (which was fucking great - HIMEOBS'ing Boston, POSTERGASMing Providence) or met the great people I met if it wasn't for this site and the exchanges that have taken place here.
I've had a lot of personal stuff happen in the last six months or so. Might other people here find it interesting? I don't know - maybe. However, I have no need to tell strangers about my personal shit, so I don't. If others want to I have no intention of stopping them, but I also have no intention of reading it. So I don't. When that kind of content or style of discussion (IE always bringing the "me/my" perspective into a discussion or topic rather than keeping a broader view) doesn't dominate the boards, it's no problem to find a wide variety of topics to have interesting discussions. When it does, seemingly making any discussion devolve into personal anecdotes substituting for broader, underlying reasons for a given issue, I lose interest and spend my time elsewhere.
Which is a shame, since I've definitely had many great discussions get going, like the 5GW stuff and the BIP. Then there are the endless rehashes of libertarianism (being tossed in where it doesn't apply, then derailing a thread that was starting to pick up steam) or drugs, the mere mention of which is guaranteed to destroy the topic being discussed. It seems like every individual is too locked into their own experiences and is allowing that to color every and any discussion on the boards here, where even a year ago it seemed like, while everyone's base frame of thought was known people were able to debate the larger picture without succumbing to anecdotes/opinions as evidence. I was starting to do that, so I kept my distance in hopes that it would shift a bit, instead of getting worse as it has seemed to be doing. I originally stuck around here because the boards were a bunch of people willing and able to at least TRY to be above the primate-style shit flinging, and I feel like the boards have lost the ability to keep that style in the last year or so.
Oh well, just my thoughts on the matter as someone who's been around here a while that hasn't been deeply involved in the day-to-day arguments/discussions/threads. As always, YMMV.
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/pdinfinity.jpg) (http://s209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/?action=view¤t=pdinfinity.jpg)
There's some great energy here, but I can't help but feel it's a little incongruent with the shape of things.
Believe it or not, ECH, I've taken a lot of cues from you about what this board is "supposed to be". I am 100% into the notion of PD as a refining factory for projects pranks and big ideas. I hope I don't need to elaborate on that. A lot of the dissonance we're experiencing has to do with not sharing a unified vision of this board. But I think at this point we have to accept that this unified vision is out of the question.
What's the mission, anyway?
If you want PD to be a certain way, you've gotta describe it to us. There should be a mission statement somewhere which says, "This is PD, this is what you can expect, this is what it's for." For example, the notion that PD is not supposed to be an "everybody's invited" discordian clubhouse. Or the "fluff" which seems to be the pet peeve of the month. If you don't want this to be "facebook for weirdoes" (whatever you think THAT means), you need to explain what behaviors are incongruent with your vision. People around here are quite willing to run with an idea as long as you don't come off like a snob.
Who is Driving the Short Bus?
And the second part is: you're not really driving this community. None of the mods are. You guys built it this way. So when it goes in a direction you don't like, (ie fluff threads or whatever) you're not in a position to "fix" it. I'm reminded of Kopyleft. To some extent, you have to accept that this thing has a life of its own, a cycle of its own, and that you don't have the authority to do anything about it. Whatever's wrong with the board, I don't think it's gonna be fixed by you and the other mods saying "Please stop this doubleplus ungood behavior." It's going to be fixed by doing what you want and then hoping people follow. In my experience, that's the major shaping force present on this board.
The "Let's take the balls somewhere else, somewhere that hasn't been corrupted yet" vibe that pops up occasionally, I think it's destined for failure. When somebody says it, without describing a specific site, a specific project that we'll move to, I just get the sense that they're all Sour Grapes about the state of the board and would rather move to a new house than clean up the kitchen. It's like when Roger got pissed off and tried to punish us by deleting his content from the board. It's not constructive, it's escapism.
Fluffernutter Sandwich
I also think that the fluff / non fluff dichotomy is missing the point. As we've established, sometimes it's okay to post about your life drama, sometimes it's too much. The problem isn't that personal anecdotes are bad and loftier discussions are good. It's that the threads in general are of low quality and not fun to read.
This applies to "content" threads too. From where I'm sitting, it's also that it's no fun to discuss certain topics with people here anymore. Intelligent discussions get reduced to emotional judgmental hysteria in a matter of pages. I already talked about this at length here (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=24599.msg849867#msg849867).
Multiple Communities within This Community
People come here with a variety of motivations, and we can't change that. I think it's better to accept that Suu comes here for different reasons than Sepia, and they're not in competition, and neither of them are doing it wrong.
I think there's a fallacy in people's minds that if there is fluff on the board, it comes at the cost of "content". There absolutely can be both. If you're trying to raise the Quality of the board, let's focus on Quality, not which categories of posts are good or bad.
If people want the board to be of higher Quality, and I think that's the mission, they should endeavor to make all of their posts better. Before you post in a thread, you should ask if you are adding to it in some way. If you just want to "express your dislike" for the thread or the ideas in it, it's better to ignore it, and let other people go on with the conversation they were enjoying.
This is best summed by by this excellent WOMP by Payne, Circa 2007:
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/buttonpress.jpg) (http://s209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/?action=view¤t=buttonpress.jpg)
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 24, 2010, 06:55:14 PM
Argh. You're totally misinterpreting the problem as I see it. The problem is not "stuff vs. fluff".
QuoteIt's one thing to occasionally interject an interesting or amusing purely personal story into the dialogue. It reminds us that we're some bizarre permutation of a tribe and that we're here to help each other progress and build. But when that kind of dialogue overtakes everything else and becomes the FOCUS of the site, we've really literally become nothing more than "facebook for weirdos".
Right. Your point, please correct me if I am mistaken, is that there is a lack of focus, or maybe too much focus on something that was never the intended focus of this particular board. If that is the point you are trying to make, then how is anything like this, or any other thread made about it, or any other thread jacked because of it, getting things back into focus? Maybe this thought process you're going through (which I, again, don't totally disagree with) should be done in a place where you can get the feedback you want (maybe a PM questionnaire) with out people assuming they are being attacked. Or, it seems to me you already have a course of action plotted, so why not just do it? This isn't a "with us against us" thing, and I'm sure you'll be able to find people that will support what your doing, as well as support PD. Maybe either or, but whatever.
Dimo-
What the hell does he know...
Cram, did you read my OP?
because it honestly seems as though you didn't. I'll say this AGAIN: the Fluff/non-fluff dichotomy is NOT WHAT I PERCEIVE THE PROBLEM TO BE.
did you even read my post? I also said the fluff / non fluff dichotomy is NOT WHAT I PERCEIVE THE PROBLEM TO BE, even though it's something everybody's been talking about. I brought up the fluff thing to segue into the Quality part, which is what I perceive the real issue to be.
As far as I can see, Cram is asking for clarification of exactly what you'd like to see, and exactly what you'd like to discourage, ECH. A clear view of what is wanted, and how it would work (even if only in theory) would seem like a good idea, or else people are going to make decisions based on their own prejudices and whatever trigger words set them off.
I hate to say "be the change you want to see" but I kind of think that in this case, that is what it boils down to.
For me, that change might be simply to back off the forum for a while. I have a lot of writing to do and I'm putting too many words into posts that mean nothing and go nowhere.
Also, getting vindictively modded isn't doing a whole lot for my morale or my attitude.
Quote from: Cramulus on March 24, 2010, 07:11:23 PM
did you even read my post? I also said the fluff / non fluff dichotomy is NOT WHAT I PERCEIVE THE PROBLEM TO BE, even though it's something everybody's been talking about. I brought up the fluff thing to segue into the Quality part, which is what I perceive the real issue to be.
I did read your post. Perhaps I utterly misinterpreted it, but it didn't seem to be addressing MY post specifically. My post was (A) made from the standpoint of a long-time heavily invested user, not from the standpoint of "OMG AN ADMIN", and (B) very specific about what I thought the problem was and that it was not "fluff vs. content". Half of your post addressed those points, which were not my points. Though I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, it just didn't seem to fit into the dialogue I was trying to have. Also, I have been pretty specific in a couple of different thread about my idea, which is to keep PD as the "social interaction" site and have a separate but very tightly related site for "serious business", so that everyone can get whichever "fix" they are in need of at the time and both sites can more directly serve the needs of their users. If that's snobby or elitist, well, then I'm a snobby elitist.
do you faggots ever actually read what you write?
rofl.
bye <3
I agree that there seems to be fewer projects going right now then there were before I left, and I would like to see more (I have little to offer, I think, so aside from bringing the Twilight parody project back or something in that same vein, I don't think I can do much).
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 24, 2010, 07:19:25 PM
Also, I have been pretty specific in a couple of different thread about my idea, which is to keep PD as the "social interaction" site and have a separate but very tightly related site for "serious business", so that everyone can get whichever "fix" they are in need of at the time and both sites can more directly serve the needs of their users.
Add a forum section to BIP? Or something along those lines, anyway. But on the other hand, that might limit the number of projects that get started because it is extra work to go post on a separate forum.
Just a thought.
Well, apparently I' m part of the problem, but I'm gonna comment (and then you all can beat me up if you like)...
If this is supposed to be a forum where we can throw stuff out, play with it, poke at it and come up with ways to use it to our advantage... then it has to be a forum that let's other ideas wander around, even unpopular ones.
Yet, there are a whole host of ideas which get shouted down anytime they come up. If a few people want to discuss 'magic', it doesn't matter if that discussion is about magic as psychology or magic as supernatural claptrap... the posts of the ridiculous come screaming in like US Fighter Jets bombing the thread into oblivion. There are other topics too, but I'm not intending this as a list of pet peeves.
It seems to me that some posts are fluff, some posts are repetitive chatter, some posts are awesome and interesting and some posts touch some magic word wherein otherwise normal posters turn into unmitigated assholes intent on shitting all over the discussion.
If we want a playground where the monkeys can fling shit, then worrying about the quality of the content seems silly.
If we want a resource of interesting ideas and perspectives, and how we might implement those... then there has to be some measure of restraint when it comes to poo flinging.
That's my opinion... feel free to excoriate me now.
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 24, 2010, 07:35:07 PMIf we want a playground where the monkeys can fling shit, then worrying about the quality of the content seems silly.
If we want a resource of interesting ideas and perspectives, and how we might implement those... then there has to be some measure of restraint when it comes to poo flinging.
That's my opinion... feel free to excoriate me now.
This, I think, is a very good point, and one I had overlooked. The tendency to shout people down and/or inject ad hominem attacks into threads that are an attempt to seriously explore an idea are a problem, though I still think the self-centered "everything is about how it relates to ME rather than how it relates to US" attitude is a bigger concern.
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 24, 2010, 07:35:07 PM
Well, apparently I' m part of the problem, but I'm gonna comment (and then you all can beat me up if you like)...
I think that we are all part of the problem, and that's the problem.
Not only that, but until more of us spend more time DOing and less time REACTing, we will remain a problem.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 24, 2010, 08:01:32 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 24, 2010, 07:35:07 PM
Well, apparently I' m part of the problem, but I'm gonna comment (and then you all can beat me up if you like)...
I think that we are all part of the problem, and that's the problem.
Not only that, but until more of us spend more time DOing and less time REACTing, we will remain a problem.
Excellent point, Nigel.
An added note, I think the trend toward stronger community in the forums has had an overall positive effect on our ability to put down the flamethrowers and talk. Time was, that just didn't happen.
Quote from: Hover Cat on March 24, 2010, 07:33:09 PM
bringing the Twilight parody project back
I considered doing that myself, but when I realised how many unfinished and ongoing projects I still (in my personal life, not just related to this place) have I kinda went "eh".
Sorry about that.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 24, 2010, 06:23:22 PM
The foundation of this site is the desire to understand the processes that rule our environment well enough to be able to use them for our own ends (even if we have wildly differing ends amongst ourtselves), not the desire to know what you and your boyfriend did last night or what petty personal tribulations you are going through on a daily basis. I apologize if that's not what some of you want out of PD.com, but you are free to discuss all of those things amongst yourselves via PM, or IRC, or, you know, some other forum that's meant for that sort of thing.
Quote from: Cramulus on March 24, 2010, 07:02:49 PM
You're not really driving this community. None of the mods are. You guys built it this way. So when it goes in a direction you don't like, (ie fluff threads or whatever) you're not in a position to "fix" it. I'm reminded of Kopyleft. To some extent, you have to accept that this thing has a life of its own, a cycle of its own, and that you don't have the authority to do anything about it. Whatever's wrong with the board, I don't think it's gonna be fixed by you and the other mods saying "Please stop this doubleplus ungood behavior." It's going to be fixed by doing what you want and then hoping people follow. In my experience, that's the major shaping force present on this board.
I'm just going to use Cramulus' post here because it sums up my feelings on this part quite nicely.
This community isn't going to change by any imposition of your will upon it. If you put the energy you want to feel when you're here into the board, others might respond to it positively and begin to behave similarly. Then again, they might respond with "FUCK YUO OPPRESSIN MAH UNLIMITED LOLCAT APPRECIATION" and there isn't actually anything you can do about that, unless you want to change how this place is run and likely see a lot of users walk out.
Quote from: Cramulus on March 24, 2010, 07:02:49 PM
The "Let's take the balls somewhere else, somewhere that hasn't been corrupted yet" vibe that pops up occasionally, I think it's destined for failure. When somebody says it, without describing a specific site, a specific project that we'll move to, I just get the sense that they're all Sour Grapes about the state of the board and would rather move to a new house than clean up the kitchen.
This was the issue I found with the first time ECH brought this idea up.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 12, 2010, 08:24:38 PM
I think we need to re-start the other site, and remind ourselves that no matter how far the screaming yahoos have penetrated into our inner sanctum, once we have found our resolve they will never be able to dig deep enough or fun far enough. In any such endeavor I will, of course, need Commander Ringmeat at my side, "inspiring" the troops in the usual way. This place may have run its course in terms of usefulness, but the ideas that started it are still good ones and I don't want to abandon them just yet.
This reads to me like "Roger, let's me and you leave these screaming yahoos behind and climb up into our treehouse to start a secret club. I get the impression that others interpreted it this way, also, by the comments on the elitist attitude.
It seems that what you meant by that was:
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 24, 2010, 07:19:25 PM
Keep PD as the "social interaction" site and have a separate but very tightly related site for "serious business", so that everyone can get whichever "fix" they are in need of at the time and both sites can more directly serve the needs of their users.
Which could work as an alternative to attempting to change the energy here. A different place, started up with the understanding that it has a specific purpose, because PD.com is up for any program, regardless of whether you have expectations about what people are here for or not.
If you've got a specific location you'd like to gather those who are more interested in what you perceive to be
the program, post teh linkz0rs and I'll certainly see you there.
I think that maybe the problem is that discussion's here are either A) no longer fun or B) no longer surprising for some people here. In another thread, Roger mentioned how some people no longer have any new reactions, that they've kind of calcified. And I've seen a couple other people lament that this place is no longer fun.
If that is the case, then maybe ECH is right. Maybe some of the people here have outgrown this place. If they are no longer excited or challenged by this place, than maybe a new site is needed. ECH, you said that PD has kind of turned inside out, that rather than using our personal lives as input for mayhem and fun, we've begun treating them as the output. If I misinterpreted what you meant correct me. But if I am right and that's how you feel, then you should make a new site. Maybe it's time for you and some of the others to move on.
As for Cram's response, he's right too. You need to point out specifically what you want to see changed. I appreciate the unlimited approach of this place, but sometimes a unified directions is needed to get people off their asses.
I'm not going to bother mentioning the fluff/content thing. As you both said, it's just a distraction from the real issue; that some people aren't getting what they want from this site. If that's the case, then by all means create a new site, but make sure that you have a well defined vision of what you want it to be.
Or at least, that's what I think.
Back when I first joined PD.com, I had just finished reading the Illuminatus Trilogy, and stumbled across the Principia Discordia. What I was primarily looking for was a vent for many of the ideas I felt coming through in those books. I wanted to find somewhere to talk about the way things should be, and perhaps find a way to work towards that bigger goal.
Later on, I got very interested in the projects flying around. The idea of the Black Iron Prison was an amazing one, and I really feel it had a major impact on the way I thought. Cain's political threads have always held the same kind of fascination for me. Not to sound like a fawning sycophant, but I've always found his take on things truly enlightening.
Trouble is, when I went to university, I found that I no longer had time to keep up. I fell behind, and it wasn't until fairly recently that I decided to peek back in and see what was going on. Again, lots of amazing projects. The Letters particularly stood out as something very inventive and very absorbing.
But, I doubt my ability to contribute at that level. PD.com often feels a step or two above where I am, and it always has. I'm not looking for somewhere to talk about my personal life- I hate sharing much of anything about myself online because, honestly, it feels weird to me. Because I don't feel that I have anything interesting to add to the discussions going on, I don't post anything at all. I just read the interesting threads, and enjoy keeping up with them.
I think part of the problem is that I've begun to honestly feel that there is nothing that can be done in real terms to change things on the broad scale I had hoped for years ago. My immediate personal environment is as comfortable as I can make it. I accept I'm very lucky in that regard, but when the immediate is as good as it can be, and the broader world we live in is- again, as far as I can see- entirely outside of my ability to effect, what do I have to talk about in line with the original goals? Not a whole heck of a lot, really.
A lot of times I feel awkward about posting because my talents don't lie in things like writing compelling rants or enacting social change. The only thing I feel I can bring into this milieu is my own thoughts and impressions about my undoubtedly limited environment, which are also undoubtedly limited. I learn a lot from reading what individuals post, here and more times than not I am left unable to provide any insight or commentary that would prove interesting. When I do post, I concede to admit, it's in the form of chatter, simply because it's the safer and more comfortable option. :oops:
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 24, 2010, 06:23:22 PM
I wasn't very eloquent about trying to present this idea before, so instead of trying to cut through 20+ pages of idiocy to revive the first thread I started on the topic, I'm making this shiny new one. I'd really like everyone's feedback on this, provided it's thoughtful rather than some lame attempt at a snarky one-liner.
I think the problem is that for whatever reason, PD has become less a place where people trade ideas and thoughts about what's going on in the world around them, how their interactions with the world around them effect themselves and others, and how we might be able to harness and/or direct that and more about presenting everything from a personal and purely self-centered framework.
IOW, we used to bitch about our jobs/politicians/etc. and apply these gripes to a larger framework or use them to build to an overarching point about something besides ourselves, now we just bitch about our jobs/politicians/etc. BECAUSE of how it effects us. It's one thing to occasionally interject an interesting or amusing purely personal story into the dialogue. It reminds us that we're some bizarre permutation of a tribe and that we're here to help each other progress and build. But when that kind of dialogue overtakes everything else and becomes the FOCUS of the site, we've really literally become nothing more than "facebook for weirdos". The foundation of this site is the desire to understand the processes that rule our environment well enough to be able to use them for our own ends (even if we have wildly differing ends amongst ourtselves), not the desire to know what you and your boyfriend did last night or what petty personal tribulations you are going through on a daily basis. I apologize if that's not what some of you want out of PD.com, but you are free to discuss all of those things amongst yourselves via PM, or IRC, or, you know, some other forum that's meant for that sort of thing. I used to think that unfettered growth of this site was to be desired for its own sake, now I realize that was just ego talking for me and that really this place might be better off (in the context of it's original stated purpose) being smaller and leaner. I don't know what can be done to impose this, and I'm not certain that I should even attempt to impose anything here anymore, but I want everyone to be very clear about what my problem is, at the very least.
Problem isn't fluff, or narcissism, or heavy-handedness, or any of that shit.
There are three problems:
1. Each of us, almost all of us, have gotten fat, stupid, and lazy. We recognized the BIP, so we think we beat it (welcome to your new cell, same as the old cell). We've put on filters because it's easier than thinking, and we all shout and bellow, but never fucking listen. We - as a group - cannot even read anymore. We SEE the words, and we may even KNOW WHAT THEY SAY, but we don't really LISTEN, because we've already decided we know everyfuckingthing and anything we don't know is just commentary.
2. This isn't facebook for weirdos, it's facebook for REALLY FUCKING HUGE EGOS. Yeah, I include myself in that. It's not about discordianism now, it's about "Who's Who on PD". It's about whining that your posts aren't appreciated, 60 seconds after you shit all over someone else's thread. It's about screeching incessantly that you're an authority on something. It's about ME ME ME ME ME.
3. We've gotten so lazy being mad that we've forgotten how to have fun. Also, this place is starting to resemble the hell scene from JTHM. Everyone is desperate to BE SEEN BEING SOMEBODY (whether or not they're really like that makes no difference). I can only speak for myself, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of people insisting that people recognize how cool they are, or how they're a fucking expert on one subject or another, or how they're TOO IMPORTANT TO HAVE ANY FUCKING FUN, because it's BENEATH THEIR DIGNITY. Likewise, in the threads that ARE serious, SHOW A LITTLE COMMON SENSE and DON'T ASSUME THAT YOUR WIT WILL BE FOUND FUNNY BY SOMEONE WHO SPENT AN HOUR OR SO THINKING UP AND WRITING A RANT.
It's really fucking simple, people. Show a little consideration, stop worrying about your status/image/expertise so fucking much, and loosen up a bit.
And someone smack Enki. No, fucking serious here.
Quote from: Nast on March 25, 2010, 12:42:36 AM
A lot of times I feel awkward about posting because my talents don't lie in things like writing compelling rants or enacting social change.
So what? This is PD, not a writer's group. Writing page-long rants isn't required, especially if your idea fits in a single sentence or two.
THIS IS NOT A FUCKING PRODUCTION COMPANY. IT IS A MESSAGE BOARD FOR PEOPLE WHO SHARE AN INTEREST. BE YOURSELF.
Unless you're Enki.
Quote
1. Each of us, almost all of us, have gotten fat, stupid, and lazy. We recognized the BIP, so we think we beat it (welcome to your new cell, same as the old cell). We've put on filters because it's easier than thinking, and we all shout and bellow, but never fucking listen. We - as a group - cannot even read anymore. We SEE the words, and we may even KNOW WHAT THEY SAY, but we don't really LISTEN, because we've already decided we know everyfuckingthing and anything we don't know is just commentary.
Agreed.
Quote2. This isn't facebook for weirdos, it's facebook for REALLY FUCKING HUGE EGOS. Yeah, I include myself in that. It's not about discordianism now, it's about "Who's Who on PD". It's about whining that your posts aren't appreciated, 60 seconds after you shit all over someone else's thread. It's about screeching incessantly that you're an authority on something. It's about ME ME ME ME ME.
Hadn't really considered this angle. Have to think about this before deciding whether agree or not.
Quote3. We've gotten so lazy being mad that we've forgotten how to have fun. Also, this place is starting to resemble the hell scene from JTHM. Everyone is desperate to BE SEEN BEING SOMEBODY (whether or not they're really like that makes no difference). I can only speak for myself, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of people insisting that people recognize how cool they are, or how they're a fucking expert on one subject or another, or how they're TOO IMPORTANT TO HAVE ANY FUCKING FUN, because it's BENEATH THEIR DIGNITY. Likewise, in the threads that ARE serious, SHOW A LITTLE COMMON SENSE and DON'T ASSUME THAT YOUR WIT WILL BE FOUND FUNNY BY SOMEONE WHO SPENT AN HOUR OR SO THINKING UP AND WRITING A RANT.
Parts of this sound similar to what I wrote. But you hit the important part. Few people seem to be having fun anymore. THAT is where I think the real issue is.
I'll probably have more to say about this later, when I have more time.
I agree with Roger. It has got to be fun. For me it also has to make me think.
I don't have a fix but I do have a thought, if something isn't done people will leave and while some may never be missed, others will be.
There's a definite feeling of one-up-man-ship around here lately, and not in the good way. The Spiders project worked for me so well because I read everyone's awesome contribution and said "fuck yeah, I can challenge myself to hang with that crowd." That kind of healthy respectful competition breeds better writing from all parties involved. Instead what we've been getting is a lot of "fuck yeah, I can shit all over what's going on here." The first is a rise to a challenge, the second is pure ego. So what the Dok said on that, yeah.
I also think there's a bit of losing sight of pd as a group of people. Let me rephrase that: pd.com is a group of people. The more people it becomes a group of, the more dissonance we'll get in the direction it goes, the content it churns out, the tone of arguments, etc. Somehow a group of us, who have recognized and talked about how any group of monkeys will eventually cause these problems, have succumbed to these exact same problems. I mean shit, how difficult is it to frame this whole debate in terms of conservative-true-to-how-pd-was-meant-to-be to progressive-how-great-pd-can-be-if-we-try? Maybe I'm lolofivesing it though.
Fuck it if this made any sense, I've been drinking.
For once in my life I'm agreeing with Ratatosk, the single worst problem here IMO is the personal attacks on people with different viewpoints. They think something that someone doesn't agree with? Well, they're clearly just a complete moron who should be shat all over. I think it's a problem of trolling tactics honed so well on places like CoG being brought to bear here, bringing work home from work as it were.
This is a place where everyone has at least something in common (at least in theory) and the kind of MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOUR OPINION SO YOU CAN TAKE YOUR OPINION AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS type of reaction is incredibly divisive. If that's how all serious discussions turn into, why bother?
Quote from: Out of Order on March 25, 2010, 01:14:59 AM
I agree with Roger. It has got to be fun. For me it also has to make me think.
For you, that's fun. I agree.
But not everyone does, at least not all the time. And there's room for them here, too.
If you don't like fluff, DON'T CLICK. If you like fluff and not rants, KEEP YOUR FLUFF OUT OF THE RANTS.
Before you hit the post button, ask yourself, "If this was my thread, would this be the sort of post I'd like to have someone make?" Are you making things more fun for everyone, or just showing how witty you are? If you're reading a serious thread, did you actually READ it, before writing a response?
Quote from: EoC on March 25, 2010, 01:20:25 AM
There's a definite feeling of one-up-man-ship around here lately, and not in the good way. The Spiders project worked for me so well because I read everyone's awesome contribution and said "fuck yeah, I can challenge myself to hang with that crowd." That kind of healthy respectful competition breeds better writing from all parties involved. Instead what we've been getting is a lot of "fuck yeah, I can shit all over what's going on here." The first is a rise to a challenge, the second is pure ego. So what the Dok said on that, yeah.
I also think there's a bit of losing sight of pd as a group of people. Let me rephrase that: pd.com is a group of people. The more people it becomes a group of, the more dissonance we'll get in the direction it goes, the content it churns out, the tone of arguments, etc. Somehow a group of us, who have recognized and talked about how any group of monkeys will eventually cause these problems, have succumbed to these exact same problems. I mean shit, how difficult is it to frame this whole debate in terms of conservative-true-to-how-pd-was-meant-to-be to progressive-how-great-pd-can-be-if-we-try? Maybe I'm lolofivesing it though.
Fuck it if this made any sense, I've been drinking.
Makes perfect sense.
There is no need to shit on someone for having a little silly fun. Likewise, there is no need to derail a serious thread to show what a zany character you are.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on March 25, 2010, 01:21:04 AM
For once in my life I'm agreeing with Ratatosk, the single worst problem here IMO is the personal attacks on people with different viewpoints. They think something that someone doesn't agree with? Well, they're clearly just a complete moron who should be shat all over. I think it's a problem of trolling tactics honed so well on places like CoG being brought to bear here, bringing work home from work as it were.
This is a place where everyone has at least something in common (at least in theory) and the kind of MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOUR OPINION SO YOU CAN TAKE YOUR OPINION AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS type of reaction is incredibly divisive. If that's how all serious discussions turn into, why bother?
Strange as it may seem, I agree. And yeah, I've been guilty of that a time or three in the last 8 years.
Sense being made, ITT.
QuoteLast 10 or so posts
This.
I don't know.
I am ALWAYS up for causing some sort of disturbance,
I don't know if I have ever shared content, if I see an opening and where I can give some input then I will do so.
But otherwise, I'll keep doing what I do. Whatever that is.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2010, 12:53:08 AM
Problem isn't fluff, or narcissism, or heavy-handedness, or any of that shit.
There are three problems:
1. Each of us, almost all of us, have gotten fat, stupid, and lazy. We recognized the BIP, so we think we beat it (welcome to your new cell, same as the old cell). We've put on filters because it's easier than thinking, and we all shout and bellow, but never fucking listen. We - as a group - cannot even read anymore. We SEE the words, and we may even KNOW WHAT THEY SAY, but we don't really LISTEN, because we've already decided we know everyfuckingthing and anything we don't know is just commentary.
2. This isn't facebook for weirdos, it's facebook for REALLY FUCKING HUGE EGOS. Yeah, I include myself in that. It's not about discordianism now, it's about "Who's Who on PD". It's about whining that your posts aren't appreciated, 60 seconds after you shit all over someone else's thread. It's about screeching incessantly that you're an authority on something. It's about ME ME ME ME ME.
3. We've gotten so lazy being mad that we've forgotten how to have fun. Also, this place is starting to resemble the hell scene from JTHM. Everyone is desperate to BE SEEN BEING SOMEBODY (whether or not they're really like that makes no difference). I can only speak for myself, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of people insisting that people recognize how cool they are, or how they're a fucking expert on one subject or another, or how they're TOO IMPORTANT TO HAVE ANY FUCKING FUN, because it's BENEATH THEIR DIGNITY. Likewise, in the threads that ARE serious, SHOW A LITTLE COMMON SENSE and DON'T ASSUME THAT YOUR WIT WILL BE FOUND FUNNY BY SOMEONE WHO SPENT AN HOUR OR SO THINKING UP AND WRITING A RANT.
It's really fucking simple, people. Show a little consideration, stop worrying about your status/image/expertise so fucking much, and loosen up a bit.
And someone smack Enki. No, fucking serious here.
I think this is pretty spot-on.
Also, I think we're bored. We do need drama and conflict, but we need it
elsewhere, or we start being the Fox of Chaos and eating our own entrails.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 01:52:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2010, 12:53:08 AM
Problem isn't fluff, or narcissism, or heavy-handedness, or any of that shit.
There are three problems:
1. Each of us, almost all of us, have gotten fat, stupid, and lazy. We recognized the BIP, so we think we beat it (welcome to your new cell, same as the old cell). We've put on filters because it's easier than thinking, and we all shout and bellow, but never fucking listen. We - as a group - cannot even read anymore. We SEE the words, and we may even KNOW WHAT THEY SAY, but we don't really LISTEN, because we've already decided we know everyfuckingthing and anything we don't know is just commentary.
2. This isn't facebook for weirdos, it's facebook for REALLY FUCKING HUGE EGOS. Yeah, I include myself in that. It's not about discordianism now, it's about "Who's Who on PD". It's about whining that your posts aren't appreciated, 60 seconds after you shit all over someone else's thread. It's about screeching incessantly that you're an authority on something. It's about ME ME ME ME ME.
3. We've gotten so lazy being mad that we've forgotten how to have fun. Also, this place is starting to resemble the hell scene from JTHM. Everyone is desperate to BE SEEN BEING SOMEBODY (whether or not they're really like that makes no difference). I can only speak for myself, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of people insisting that people recognize how cool they are, or how they're a fucking expert on one subject or another, or how they're TOO IMPORTANT TO HAVE ANY FUCKING FUN, because it's BENEATH THEIR DIGNITY. Likewise, in the threads that ARE serious, SHOW A LITTLE COMMON SENSE and DON'T ASSUME THAT YOUR WIT WILL BE FOUND FUNNY BY SOMEONE WHO SPENT AN HOUR OR SO THINKING UP AND WRITING A RANT.
It's really fucking simple, people. Show a little consideration, stop worrying about your status/image/expertise so fucking much, and loosen up a bit.
And someone smack Enki. No, fucking serious here.
I think this is pretty spot-on.
Also, I think we're bored. We do need drama and conflict, but we need it elsewhere, or we start being the Fox of Chaos and eating our own entrails.
While I AM tasty, I think we should find someone to vent all this stack gas onto.
But if not, I'll just listen to Lady Gaga and eat me a Roger steak, rare.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2010, 01:27:57 AM
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on March 25, 2010, 01:21:04 AM
For once in my life I'm agreeing with Ratatosk, the single worst problem here IMO is the personal attacks on people with different viewpoints. They think something that someone doesn't agree with? Well, they're clearly just a complete moron who should be shat all over. I think it's a problem of trolling tactics honed so well on places like CoG being brought to bear here, bringing work home from work as it were.
This is a place where everyone has at least something in common (at least in theory) and the kind of MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOUR OPINION SO YOU CAN TAKE YOUR OPINION AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS type of reaction is incredibly divisive. If that's how all serious discussions turn into, why bother?
Strange as it may seem, I agree. And yeah, I've been guilty of that a time or three in the last 8 years.
As far as I can remember, PD has always trolled itself. There seems to have been a decline in a certain brand jackassery on the boards in the past year or so though and I think it kind of changed the normal dynamics of the forum. In the past, we always had someone who was being a shit-head and so we were able to loose our vitriol on them. There seems to have been a slight uptick recently in that certain brand of jackassery I mentioned, but because it's been a while it seems alien to some of us.
I mean, when was the last time we really had an Eldora or even an Aini? I mean, Nigel is the closest thing to that these days. The board seems to have become soft.
Maybe it's just because I don't go on troll outings anymore, but there don't seem to be as many lulz here as there used to be in large part because 1) we don't have a scapegoat/whipping boy to heap proper abuse on and 2) the amount of Serious Business mixed with livejournal/myspace/twitter horseshit has gone up.
Personally, I have always come here for the lulz. I try to avoid posting personal stuff here, because I don't see much value in posting that sort of shit. I mean, really, who the fuck cares? People reply to make conversation, but it's about as interesting as a facebook feed most of the time. I'm not saying people can't post that stuff here, they can do whatever they want but they can't expect not to be made fun of if they start posting really stupid shit that nobody cares about. There seems to have been a real hesitance to make fun of people lately and I'm not sure why. Maybe everyone is mellowing out. Maybe I should start saying what I think a little more often instead of ignoring it, even if it pisses someone off.
I do, however, agree that PD has become "facebook for weirdos" to some degree.
Quote from: Cain on March 24, 2010, 08:30:35 PM
Quote from: Hover Cat on March 24, 2010, 07:33:09 PM
bringing the Twilight parody project back
I considered doing that myself, but when I realised how many unfinished and ongoing projects I still (in my personal life, not just related to this place) have I kinda went "eh".
Sorry about that.
No worries and ditto. It's how it goes.
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 25, 2010, 02:44:07 AM
I mean, when was the last time we really had an Eldora or even an Aini? I mean, Nigel is the closest thing to that these days. The board seems to have become soft.
Naw. Nigel posts content when the mood hits her. The closest thing we have to an Aini is Enki, and we have nothing resembling Eldora. That landwhale is one of a kind.
Enki is more like one of the trolls from 07-09 (AKK, etc) but not as bad and at least the kid is trying.
Nigel is like Eldora/Aini in that she stirs shit and then throws a shitfit when the inevitable and entirely predictable backlash occurs.
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 25, 2010, 02:51:12 AM
Enki is more like one of the trolls from 07-09 (AKK, etc) but not as bad and at least the kid is trying.
No he isn't. He waits until people ALMOST like him, then he goes all ass burgers. He's like Wade with bad hair.
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 25, 2010, 02:51:12 AM
Nigel is like Eldora/Aini in that she stirs shit and then throws a shitfit when the inevitable and entirely predictable backlash occurs.
Meh. She reminds me more of me in 2005/2006 than Aini, and she's at least honest about her attacks than Eldora ever dreamed of being.
I fail to see the comparison.
1: I don't remember anyone almost liking Wade.
2: I didn't really expect you to see it because you seem to have some sort of fatherly soft-spot for Nigel, but she seems way closer to a mix of Aini and Eldora (albeit not terribly close) than she is to you from any era that I've seen. Her recent bitchy posts (and a few ones I remember from a ways back) reminded me of them largely because they were devoid of any humor. When you stirred shit, you generally did it with style and often with good reason. When she does it, it's not funny or poignant, it's just bitchy and obviously designed to invoke a reaction that she can try to use and garner sympathy. The result of this is that it's beginning to piss off more and more posters.
2a: As far as content goes, yeah, she does post some sometimes but as I stated before, I'm pretty much just in this for the lulz.
Quote from: Joh'Nyx on March 25, 2010, 03:09:28 AM
HOw dare you! Wasnt I supposed to be the new wade!?!?
Only on the "preys on women" score, Johnny.
Ouch
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 25, 2010, 03:11:03 AM
1: I don't remember anyone almost liking Wade.
I did. Once. For like 10 minutes.
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 25, 2010, 03:11:03 AM
2: I didn't really expect you to see it because you seem to have some sort of fatherly soft-spot for Nigel,
WTF? She's 3 years younger than me. :lulz:
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 25, 2010, 03:11:03 AM
2a: As far as content goes, yeah, she does post some sometimes but as I stated before, I'm pretty much just in this for the lulz.
Then I'm not sure what the problem is.
1: I must have been gone or something.
2: So? She could be 10 years older than you and you could still have a mentor-type thing going on.
2a: Eh, I forgot where I was going with this now. Fuck it, I'm gonna go post pictures of things with mustaches that shouldn't have mustaches.
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 25, 2010, 03:17:43 AM
1: I must have been gone or something.
Well, yeah. You accidentally about 3 years, almost.
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 25, 2010, 03:17:43 AM
2: So? She could be 10 years older than you and you could still have a mentor-type thing going on.
No, I think you could accuse her of lots of things and maybe be right, but being Roger's Padawan ain't one of them. :lulz:
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 25, 2010, 03:17:43 AM
2a: Eh, I forgot where I was going with this now. Fuck it, I'm gonna go post pictures of things with mustaches that shouldn't have mustaches.
Boo yah
On a serious note, I'd like to take this moment to say that if it wasn't for PD and the outlet it gives me for emotional outbursts and random blurbs, I'd probably be committed by now. For some reason, I find that being able to spout my babble here to a group of people who are relatively strangers is therapeutic, and cheaper than a shrink.
Also, the board helps me keep up on current events when I wouldn't normally give a fuck or have the time to look at the news myself.
I know what you mean Suu.
I'm thinking of taking work off for a work just so I can work on Operation Mindfuck
Quote from: NotPublished on March 25, 2010, 03:33:47 AM
I know what you mean Suu.
I'm thinking of taking work off for a work just so I can work on Operation Mindfuck
Unnng?
I need to get away from work, and I live for free pretty much
Quote from: NotPublished on March 25, 2010, 03:35:58 AM
I need to get away from work, and I live for free pretty much
Read your second sentence again.
OH Hah. Take work off for a week, you can tell whats on my mind. :lulz:
Quote from: NotPublished on March 25, 2010, 03:38:23 AM
OH Hah. Take work off for a week, you can tell whats on my mind. :lulz:
Tentacles, rotten fish, and Lady Gaga in a waldo suit?
how do you know me soo well?
Quote from: NotPublished on March 25, 2010, 03:42:38 AM
how do you know me soo well?
I understand Australians. I have seen the face of depravity.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: ON UR KNEES NOW BITCH
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2010, 03:52:20 AM
Quote from: NotPublished on March 25, 2010, 03:42:38 AM
how do you know me soo well?
I understand Australians. I have seen the face of depravity.
What can you expect? A country that's upside down might as well be backwards.
Quote from: Nast on March 25, 2010, 03:55:01 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2010, 03:52:20 AM
Quote from: NotPublished on March 25, 2010, 03:42:38 AM
how do you know me soo well?
I understand Australians. I have seen the face of depravity.
What can you expect? A country that's upside down might as well be backwards.
AUSTRALIA: THE PLANET'S PROLAPSE.
:horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth:
Why does it have to be painful
They have spiders the size of small dogs. There is something inherently WRONG with that place.
Quote from: wade on March 30, 2009, 04:40:19 AM
holy fuck, for a second here i thought I was surfing livejournal, as it turns out, i'm still at PD...
huh.
Quote from: wade on April 07, 2009, 03:16:32 AM
Quote from: Yάttᶿ on April 07, 2009, 02:24:39 AM
all you had to do was change the litter from time to time
stfu you goomba you donno what you're talking about.
I almost hate to say it, but I think that a lot of people's problem with me is that I am a girl and I post a bunch of girl emotional crap, but I am also like a guy and I post a lot of guy aggressive crap. Where it would be funny coming from a guy, it is not funny coming from a girl, and then a lot of guys feel comfortable labeling me slutty/desperate/whatever, simply because they are not comfortable accepting the combination of sentimental/dicktastic coming from a female.
At this point though I am kind of ready to ditch this place because I feel like I have IRL connections to most of the people I care about and could jettison the ones I don't, and enough people here seem not willing to put up with me I'm not seeing much reason to stick around.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:03:33 AM
I almost hate to say it, but I think that a lot of people's problem with me is that I am a girl and I post a bunch of girl emotional crap, but I am also like a guy and I post a lot of guy aggressive crap. Where it would be funny coming from a guy, it is not funny coming from a girl, and then a lot of guys feel comfortable labeling me slutty/desperate/whatever, simply because they are not comfortable accepting the combination of sentimental/dicktastic coming from a female.
At this point though I am kind of ready to ditch this place because I feel like I have IRL connections to most of the people I care about and could jettison the ones I don't, and enough people here seem not willing to put up with me I'm not seeing much reason to stick around.
don't go :sad:
i like your female presence :sad:
Quote from: Lady Grinning Soul on March 25, 2010, 07:05:40 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:03:33 AM
I almost hate to say it, but I think that a lot of people's problem with me is that I am a girl and I post a bunch of girl emotional crap, but I am also like a guy and I post a lot of guy aggressive crap. Where it would be funny coming from a guy, it is not funny coming from a girl, and then a lot of guys feel comfortable labeling me slutty/desperate/whatever, simply because they are not comfortable accepting the combination of sentimental/dicktastic coming from a female.
At this point though I am kind of ready to ditch this place because I feel like I have IRL connections to most of the people I care about and could jettison the ones I don't, and enough people here seem not willing to put up with me I'm not seeing much reason to stick around.
don't go :sad:
i like your female presence :sad:
Honestly, I like the vast majority of the people here. But there are basically two people who make it unpleasant enough that I wonder why I waste my fucking time.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:08:12 AM
Honestly, I like the vast majority of the people here. But there are basically two people who make it unpleasant enough that I wonder why I waste my fucking time.
just tell them to piss off and then whip them in the face with your ballsack :)
FWIW, EVERY fucking time I make an unequivocal statement like "I hate DJs and philosophy students" it's because actually I fucking totally love at least one person that fits into that description, and the fact that you shits can't extrapolate an exception from an absolute statement makes me want to line all of you against a wall and bury you in a mass grave.
But, I guess, some people aren't capable of humor more subtle than LOLcats and alignment pics.
Quote from: Lady Grinning Soul on March 25, 2010, 07:09:52 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:08:12 AM
Honestly, I like the vast majority of the people here. But there are basically two people who make it unpleasant enough that I wonder why I waste my fucking time.
just tell them to piss off and then whip them in the face with your ballsack :)
I try, but then they get all upset that a chick has nuts. :)
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:13:26 AM
Quote from: Lady Grinning Soul on March 25, 2010, 07:09:52 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:08:12 AM
Honestly, I like the vast majority of the people here. But there are basically two people who make it unpleasant enough that I wonder why I waste my fucking time.
just tell them to piss off and then whip them in the face with your ballsack :)
I try, but then they get all upset that a chick has nuts. :)
then tell them to suck dem nuts :)
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2010, 12:53:08 AM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 24, 2010, 06:23:22 PM
I wasn't very eloquent about trying to present this idea before, so instead of trying to cut through 20+ pages of idiocy to revive the first thread I started on the topic, I'm making this shiny new one. I'd really like everyone's feedback on this, provided it's thoughtful rather than some lame attempt at a snarky one-liner.
I think the problem is that for whatever reason, PD has become less a place where people trade ideas and thoughts about what's going on in the world around them, how their interactions with the world around them effect themselves and others, and how we might be able to harness and/or direct that and more about presenting everything from a personal and purely self-centered framework.
IOW, we used to bitch about our jobs/politicians/etc. and apply these gripes to a larger framework or use them to build to an overarching point about something besides ourselves, now we just bitch about our jobs/politicians/etc. BECAUSE of how it effects us. It's one thing to occasionally interject an interesting or amusing purely personal story into the dialogue. It reminds us that we're some bizarre permutation of a tribe and that we're here to help each other progress and build. But when that kind of dialogue overtakes everything else and becomes the FOCUS of the site, we've really literally become nothing more than "facebook for weirdos". The foundation of this site is the desire to understand the processes that rule our environment well enough to be able to use them for our own ends (even if we have wildly differing ends amongst ourtselves), not the desire to know what you and your boyfriend did last night or what petty personal tribulations you are going through on a daily basis. I apologize if that's not what some of you want out of PD.com, but you are free to discuss all of those things amongst yourselves via PM, or IRC, or, you know, some other forum that's meant for that sort of thing. I used to think that unfettered growth of this site was to be desired for its own sake, now I realize that was just ego talking for me and that really this place might be better off (in the context of it's original stated purpose) being smaller and leaner. I don't know what can be done to impose this, and I'm not certain that I should even attempt to impose anything here anymore, but I want everyone to be very clear about what my problem is, at the very least.
Problem isn't fluff, or narcissism, or heavy-handedness, or any of that shit.
There are three problems:
1. Each of us, almost all of us, have gotten fat, stupid, and lazy. We recognized the BIP, so we think we beat it (welcome to your new cell, same as the old cell). We've put on filters because it's easier than thinking, and we all shout and bellow, but never fucking listen. We - as a group - cannot even read anymore. We SEE the words, and we may even KNOW WHAT THEY SAY, but we don't really LISTEN, because we've already decided we know everyfuckingthing and anything we don't know is just commentary.
2. This isn't facebook for weirdos, it's facebook for REALLY FUCKING HUGE EGOS. Yeah, I include myself in that. It's not about discordianism now, it's about "Who's Who on PD". It's about whining that your posts aren't appreciated, 60 seconds after you shit all over someone else's thread. It's about screeching incessantly that you're an authority on something. It's about ME ME ME ME ME.
3. We've gotten so lazy being mad that we've forgotten how to have fun. Also, this place is starting to resemble the hell scene from JTHM. Everyone is desperate to BE SEEN BEING SOMEBODY (whether or not they're really like that makes no difference). I can only speak for myself, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of people insisting that people recognize how cool they are, or how they're a fucking expert on one subject or another, or how they're TOO IMPORTANT TO HAVE ANY FUCKING FUN, because it's BENEATH THEIR DIGNITY. Likewise, in the threads that ARE serious, SHOW A LITTLE COMMON SENSE and DON'T ASSUME THAT YOUR WIT WILL BE FOUND FUNNY BY SOMEONE WHO SPENT AN HOUR OR SO THINKING UP AND WRITING A RANT.
It's really fucking simple, people. Show a little consideration, stop worrying about your status/image/expertise so fucking much, and loosen up a bit.
And someone smack Enki. No, fucking serious here.
Holy fuck yes to all of that.
I think you should put that post into OP ~ It'll get lost and hopefully it will be refered to in the future
Fuck it. After I quoted that I read the rest of the thread, which consisted of about 4 more serious and topical replies (which were all well thought out and appreciated, even if I didn't necessarily agree with all of them) and 4 more pages of inanity and threadjacking. My giveafuck-o-meter is starting to fail on me.
changing the litterbox is important you know
I read the whole thing. It was refreshing. I think the inanity started simply because someone finally made a statement they could get behind, and there's no need to continue being all gray.
Anyway, I think Dok nailed it on all three points (even the egos, and I think that applies to more people than one would think). Let's stop taking ourselves so seriously and have a good time, then we'll naturally get quality out-put. Things take time ECH, and I don't think you've given it enough. That is simply my opinion. But can we stop talking about this shit now? I want to do something.
New forum. Different and new names. Get to work.
Rinse, repeat.
QuoteBefore you hit the post button, ask yourself, "If this was my thread, would this be the sort of post I'd like to have someone make?" Are you making things more fun for everyone, or just showing how witty you are? If you're reading a serious thread, did you actually READ it, before writing a response?
I think this needs to be printed out and pasted onto evertone's monitor. Fluff for the fluff god, content for the content god, wit for the wit god.
Mixing and matching is like wearing stripes and plaid:
Outlandish.
I skimmed this thread (posting anyway) cause I don't have the time to read it thoroughly, I've been spending all that time writing stuff to put up in OKM, and IRL stuff that /leads/ to stuff I put up in OKM.
So, I'm just gonna assume that if anyone around here has any problems, those problems have nothing to do with me.
Quote from: Kai on March 25, 2010, 02:04:09 PM
So, I'm just gonna assume that if anyone around here has any problems, those problems have nothing to do with me.
:potd::potd::potd:
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:08:12 AM
Quote from: Lady Grinning Soul on March 25, 2010, 07:05:40 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:03:33 AM
I almost hate to say it, but I think that a lot of people's problem with me is that I am a girl and I post a bunch of girl emotional crap, but I am also like a guy and I post a lot of guy aggressive crap. Where it would be funny coming from a guy, it is not funny coming from a girl, and then a lot of guys feel comfortable labeling me slutty/desperate/whatever, simply because they are not comfortable accepting the combination of sentimental/dicktastic coming from a female.
At this point though I am kind of ready to ditch this place because I feel like I have IRL connections to most of the people I care about and could jettison the ones I don't, and enough people here seem not willing to put up with me I'm not seeing much reason to stick around.
don't go :sad:
i like your female presence :sad:
Honestly, I like the vast majority of the people here. But there are basically two people who make it unpleasant enough that I wonder why I waste my fucking time.
Stay please.
I'm to the point of not fighting any of it anymore. I said earlier and I hold to it. People will just stop posting. Who has already left and we've been bickering and pissing too much to notice?
Some of us aren't missed when we walk away for a few days, weeks, months.
If you don't like the fluff, as Dok said. DON'T CLICK ON IT!!! If there is a real problem with someone specific, then direct the issue with them and let's be done with it.
I just don't want other people to walk away and not come back. Because I'll really miss Hoops!!!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2010, 02:10:43 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:08:12 AM
Quote from: Lady Grinning Soul on March 25, 2010, 07:05:40 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:03:33 AM
I almost hate to say it, but I think that a lot of people's problem with me is that I am a girl and I post a bunch of girl emotional crap, but I am also like a guy and I post a lot of guy aggressive crap. Where it would be funny coming from a guy, it is not funny coming from a girl, and then a lot of guys feel comfortable labeling me slutty/desperate/whatever, simply because they are not comfortable accepting the combination of sentimental/dicktastic coming from a female.
At this point though I am kind of ready to ditch this place because I feel like I have IRL connections to most of the people I care about and could jettison the ones I don't, and enough people here seem not willing to put up with me I'm not seeing much reason to stick around.
don't go :sad:
i like your female presence :sad:
Honestly, I like the vast majority of the people here. But there are basically two people who make it unpleasant enough that I wonder why I waste my fucking time.
Stay please.
I probably will, if only because they want me to leave and my stupid pride won't let me slink off and lick my wounds.
Also, and you didn't catch me admitting it, I like most of these motherfuckers here, whether they like me or not.
Yeah, stay. For some reason, (not sure why, really) I sort of look at you as like the "board mom." Let's not make this house a broken home.
Quote from: dimo on March 25, 2010, 03:43:44 PM
Yeah, stay. For some reason, (not sure why, really) I sort of look at you as like the "board mom."
uh...
Never mind.
Quote from: LMNO on March 25, 2010, 03:46:33 PM
Quote from: dimo on March 25, 2010, 03:43:44 PM
Yeah, stay. For some reason, (not sure why, really) I sort of look at you as like the "board mom."
uh...
Never mind.
I don't mind. Go ahead.
Quote from: dimo on March 25, 2010, 03:43:44 PM
Yeah, stay. For some reason, (not sure why, really) I sort of look at you as like the "board mom." Let's not make this house a broken home.
:lol:
Nigel has a very disfunctional family, ITT.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to write on the walls and build sandcastles in the kitty litter box.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2010, 03:48:07 PM
Quote from: dimo on March 25, 2010, 03:43:44 PM
Yeah, stay. For some reason, (not sure why, really) I sort of look at you as like the "board mom." Let's not make this house a broken home.
:lol:
Nigel has a very disfunctional family, ITT.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to write on the walls and build sandcastles in the kitty litter box.
Oh, have I faux pas'd?
Quote from: dimo on March 25, 2010, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO on March 25, 2010, 03:46:33 PM
Quote from: dimo on March 25, 2010, 03:43:44 PM
Yeah, stay. For some reason, (not sure why, really) I sort of look at you as like the "board mom."
uh...
Never mind.
I don't mind. Go ahead.
It's just that the term "board mom" has
never had positive connotations for me.
Quote from: dimo on March 25, 2010, 03:50:13 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2010, 03:48:07 PM
Quote from: dimo on March 25, 2010, 03:43:44 PM
Yeah, stay. For some reason, (not sure why, really) I sort of look at you as like the "board mom." Let's not make this house a broken home.
:lol:
Nigel has a very disfunctional family, ITT.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to write on the walls and build sandcastles in the kitty litter box.
Oh, have I faux pas'd?
Eldora called herself the board mommy.
We burned her out like a bad infection.
Like Danu, when she tried her board mommy act on a few of us on EB&G. Hilarity ensued
Quote from: Out of Order on March 25, 2010, 02:16:46 PM
I'm to the point of not fighting any of it anymore. I said earlier and I hold to it. People will just stop posting. Who has already left and we've been bickering and pissing too much to notice?
Some of us aren't missed when we walk away for a few days, weeks, months.
If you don't like the fluff, as Dok said. DON'T CLICK ON IT!!! If there is a real problem with someone specific, then direct the issue with them and let's be done with it.
I just don't want other people to walk away and not come back. Because I'll really miss Hoops!!!
Too late for that one. And he's not the only one who's said "fuck it" recently.
In fact, it was Hoops leaving that got me irritated enough at what's been going on here to finally find a more eloquent and less "snobby and elitist" way to try to get my point across. I had a long conversation with him about this, and came to the conclusion that
A) accusations of being snobby and elitist, when directed at me, are right on the money.
B) because in this case, being "snobby and elitist" means holding this site and the people on it to a higher standard than what is generally expected of a mob of primates, and if anyone doesn't fucking get why that is or the importance of it, they should probably fuck off and find another digital hangout.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:03:33 AM
I almost hate to say it, but I think that a lot of people's problem with me is that I am a girl and I post a bunch of girl emotional crap, but I am also like a guy and I post a lot of guy aggressive crap. Where it would be funny coming from a guy, it is not funny coming from a girl, and then a lot of guys feel comfortable labeling me slutty/desperate/whatever, simply because they are not comfortable accepting the combination of sentimental/dicktastic coming from a female.
At this point though I am kind of ready to ditch this place because I feel like I have IRL connections to most of the people I care about and could jettison the ones I don't, and enough people here seem not willing to put up with me I'm not seeing much reason to stick around.
I don't think its fair of you tar and feather girls when the problem people have with you is your neuroses, but playing the persecuted tough girl seems to give you your jollies so keep thinking that's the case, even if its not. I consider you an avatar and some text, unless I meet you IRL you don't take on any gender in my mind, I don't treat you differently because of that. I don't care if you leave or not, but I do care about the way you have been treating people on the site.
Anyway, and
more importantlyDespite any of the bitching of the last few weeks I don't think any of that stuff is "The problem with PD".
As others have said, it is an overall lack of focus and sense of involvement (trolling forums, some of the dumb games we used to play in apple talk and the like) that seems to have dampened over the last year. Its no one specific thing that has caused this but as roger said, the fun seems to have gone with it.
Quote from: Cain on March 25, 2010, 03:52:01 PM
Like Danu, when she tried her board mommy act on a few of us on EB&G. Hilarity ensued
:lulz:
I remember that.
Nigel is ineligble for the board mommy job.
1. She's not fat. Hot women cannot be board mommies. Only land whales with Dunning/Kruger syndrome can have the job.
2. She's not stirring shit up via PM. All of her fights are public.
3. She's too busy being a whiskey & hate fueled maniac to bother trying to mommy adults.
:oops: My apologies, Nigel. I didn't realize...
Quote from: Faust on March 25, 2010, 03:53:39 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 25, 2010, 07:03:33 AM
I almost hate to say it, but I think that a lot of people's problem with me is that I am a girl and I post a bunch of girl emotional crap, but I am also like a guy and I post a lot of guy aggressive crap. Where it would be funny coming from a guy, it is not funny coming from a girl, and then a lot of guys feel comfortable labeling me slutty/desperate/whatever, simply because they are not comfortable accepting the combination of sentimental/dicktastic coming from a female.
At this point though I am kind of ready to ditch this place because I feel like I have IRL connections to most of the people I care about and could jettison the ones I don't, and enough people here seem not willing to put up with me I'm not seeing much reason to stick around.
I don't think its fair of you tar and feather girls when the problem people have with you is your neuroses, but playing the persecuted tough girl seems to give you your jollies so keep thinking that's the case, even if its not. I consider you an avatar and some text, unless I meet you IRL you don't take on any gender in my mind, I don't treat you differently because of that. I don't care if you leave or not, but I do care about the way you have been treating people on the site.
Anyway, and more importantly
Despite any of the bitching of the last few weeks I don't think any of that stuff is "The problem with PD".
As others have said, it is an overall lack of focus and sense of involvement (trolling forums, some of the dumb games we used to play in apple talk and the like) that seems to have dampened over the last year. Its no one specific thing that has caused this but as roger said, the fun seems to have gone with it.
I think eventually one side or the other is going to have to just walk away from this argument.
I mean, when everyone has had their fill of hate, bad feelings, and saying things they can never take back.
Quote from: Faust on March 25, 2010, 03:53:39 PM
Anyway, and more importantly
Despite any of the bitching of the last few weeks I don't think any of that stuff is "The problem with PD".
As others have said, it is an overall lack of focus and sense of involvement (trolling forums, some of the dumb games we used to play in apple talk and the like) that seems to have dampened over the last year. Its no one specific thing that has caused this but as roger said, the fun seems to have gone with it.
I disagree strongly. I really think that the recent (in the last year or so) tendency for people to post from a self-centered standpoint rather than tying their personal experiences into a broader picture is a BIG problem. This is not the place for ego-based posturing, and we're all guilty to some degree but there's a split between the people that have recently fallen into that mode because it's become the dominant framework for communication here and the people that never progressed beyond it in the first place.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 25, 2010, 03:58:48 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 25, 2010, 03:53:39 PM
Anyway, and more importantly
Despite any of the bitching of the last few weeks I don't think any of that stuff is "The problem with PD".
As others have said, it is an overall lack of focus and sense of involvement (trolling forums, some of the dumb games we used to play in apple talk and the like) that seems to have dampened over the last year. Its no one specific thing that has caused this but as roger said, the fun seems to have gone with it.
I disagree strongly. I really think that the recent (in the last year or so) tendency for people to post from a self-centered standpoint rather than tying their personal experiences into a broader picture is a BIG problem. This is not the place for ego-based posturing, and we're all guilty to some degree but there's a split between the people that have recently fallen into that mode because it's become the dominant framework for communication here and the people that never progressed beyond it in the first place.
Yeah, there's been some serious backsliding since October or so. And THAT, my friends, is the
road to perdition.
Quote from: Faust on March 25, 2010, 03:53:39 PM
Anyway, and more importantly
Despite any of the bitching of the last few weeks I don't think any of that stuff is "The problem with PD".
As others have said, it is an overall lack of focus and sense of involvement (trolling forums, some of the dumb games we used to play in apple talk and the like) that seems to have dampened over the last year. Its no one specific thing that has caused this but as roger said, the fun seems to have gone with it.
I LIKE INVOLVEMENT. BUT I IS NOOB. I IS WANTING ACTIVITIES. I IS NO TROLL. I IS IRL. I NO KNOW HOW TO BE MAKING ACTIVITIES BECAUSE I AM NOOB. I TRY, BUT I NO KNOW HOW YET. SOMEONE PLEASE TO BE MAKING OF THE ACTIVITIES FOR THE IRL TYPE. NEED ACTIVITIES. WHEN NOT NOOB, I MAKE ACTIVITIES.
As an aside, Nigel is my friend IRL as well as on PD, and she's a pretty fucking awesome person. If someone has a problem with her (or anyone else) that doesn't have anything to fucking do with the thread or topic at hand, it's extremely disrespectful to make that problem public and try to get uninvolved posters to take sides. The next person that jacks my thread to talk totally unrelated shit about Nigel is gonna get smacked in the fucking mouth if I ever see them IRL.
Grow the fuck up.
ETA: that's not just directed at you, Faust, although it disappoints me more coming from you than anyone else. but I've seen it a couple of other times in the last couple days from a couple other people.
I'm sure there are a number of interrelated problems. However, I'm also pretty sure that
a) I won't be listened to, and
b) this thread will be re-made again in two weeks, because either no-one correctly identified the problem(s), or when it was correctly identified, there was nothing to actually encourage desired behaviour against undesired behaviour, either on an individual or site level.
So I'm going to continue slow trolling TCC instead.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 25, 2010, 04:02:36 PM
As an aside, Nigel is my friend IRL as well as on PD, and she's a pretty fucking awesome person. If someone has a problem with her (or anyone else) that doesn't have anything to fucking do with the thread or topic at hand, it's extremely disrespectful to make that problem public and try to get uninvolved posters to take sides. The next person that jacks my thread to talk totally unrelated shit about Nigel is gonna get smacked in the fucking mouth if I ever see them IRL.
Grow the fuck up.
:mittens:
I've only talked to her on the phone, but I think she's great.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 25, 2010, 03:58:48 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 25, 2010, 03:53:39 PM
Anyway, and more importantly
Despite any of the bitching of the last few weeks I don't think any of that stuff is "The problem with PD".
As others have said, it is an overall lack of focus and sense of involvement (trolling forums, some of the dumb games we used to play in apple talk and the like) that seems to have dampened over the last year. Its no one specific thing that has caused this but as roger said, the fun seems to have gone with it.
I disagree strongly. I really think that the recent (in the last year or so) tendency for people to post from a self-centered standpoint rather than tying their personal experiences into a broader picture is a BIG problem. This is not the place for ego-based posturing, and we're all guilty to some degree but there's a split between the people that have recently fallen into that mode because it's become the dominant framework for communication here and the people that never progressed beyond it in the first place.
It has become a part of the culture and the way people communicate here though, changing that is going to require effort in pretty much every section of the forum to get people to put tying of the "bigger picture" into peoples minds.
I've started asking people when they make a flippant remark to also make a point and it seems to work.
QuoteI think eventually one side or the other is going to have to just walk away from this argument.
I mean, when everyone has had their fill of hate, bad feelings, and saying things they can never take back
QuoteETA: that's not just directed at you, Faust, although it disappoints me more coming from you than anyone else. but I've seen it a couple of other times in the last couple days from a couple other people.
I wasn't going to respond to it but this was the third time I was being indirectly or directly addressed. I won't respond to any more goading if you wish.
1) that's a good idea, about getting people to make a point out of a flippant remark. At the very least it might shut them up, and it may even inspire some new ideas.
2) don't do it for me, man, do it for you. If you have beef with Nigel, it's between you and Nigel, I just don't see her jacking threads to bitch about Faust.
Quote from: Faust on March 25, 2010, 04:08:32 PM
I won't respond to any more goading if you wish.
Well, what I wish isn't very important, here. Do you want to fight on PD, or do more constructive things?
Nobody here is FORCED into a fight.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 25, 2010, 04:02:36 PM
As an aside, Nigel is my friend IRL as well as on PD, and she's a pretty fucking awesome person. If someone has a problem with her (or anyone else) that doesn't have anything to fucking do with the thread or topic at hand, it's extremely disrespectful to make that problem public and try to get uninvolved posters to take sides. The next person that jacks my thread to talk totally unrelated shit about Nigel is gonna get smacked in the fucking mouth if I ever see them IRL.
Grow the fuck up.
Awwww. :) Thank you, ECH!
ETA: And you, too, Dok.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 25, 2010, 04:02:36 PM
The next person that jacks my thread to talk totally unrelated shit about Nigel is gonna get smacked in the fucking mouth if I ever see them IRL.
Wow dude, so you're an Internet Tough Guy now?
You know what, go right the fuck ahead and punch us in the face what we say on the internet.
This is what's wrong with PD.
I think this whole thread has a lot of very good and valid points and may very well be a good way to look deeper in ourselves for some personal development.
I personally need to get more involved with projects. To find time and make time to do them.
I think we're all bored.
We need something new and exciting.
Hell I'm bored nearly to tears with my IRL life.
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 25, 2010, 05:08:03 PM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 25, 2010, 04:02:36 PM
The next person that jacks my thread to talk totally unrelated shit about Nigel is gonna get smacked in the fucking mouth if I ever see them IRL.
Wow dude, so you're an Internet Tough Guy now?
You know what, go right the fuck ahead and punch us in the face what we say on the internet.
This is what's wrong with PD.
:reply redacted and sent via PM instead:
you know, because I'm trying to make a point about jacking serious threads with irrelevant posturing.
i think ech point is, if he knew the board was going to revert back to the old ways, he would have let the pagans keep it
Which old ways? Can you point out the 50 page threads about *stabby stabby* and tequila? Or the threads about Really Real Discordianism? Or the spasms of mod abuse, real and accused? Or perhaps the old way of this board not existing at all, or with three posters dropping in once a month? Bad as "facebook for weirdos" may be, there is always, always worse, and this board has seen it.
Well, we haven't seen the One Horse One Cup Appreciation Society yet.
Hey, you. Yeah, YOU! You know that thing, that forum down there, yeah, scroll down a bit, that one right /there/, the Or Kill Me forum? Why don't you post something there, something cool, something interesting. Hell, you could even BITCH down there if you wanted, but interesting bitching, non circular bitching, bitching that, well, doesn't suck.
I've been doing it a bit recently, it's good stuff! You should try it out!
Also, scroll up just a bit from this one, thats right, Principia Discussion. Theres a really awesome thread in there with incredible creepy writings by LMNO. But don't let that stop you from making your own!
And guess what? The more you do it, the more other people will want to join it. So don't be left behind! Act NOW!
Quote from: Kai on March 25, 2010, 10:20:37 PMAnd guess what? The more you do it, the more other people will want to join it.
I was with you up until this point.
Quote from: Cain on March 25, 2010, 10:36:29 PM
Quote from: Kai on March 25, 2010, 10:20:37 PMAnd guess what? The more you do it, the more other people will want to join it.
I was with you up until this point.
Sorry, I'm just depressed with the fact that there are so many creative people here who spend their time writing in threads like this one instead of just /doing/ stuff. As for the point I lost you, the reason the psycho letters work was because of it.
You didn't lose me on it. Don't presume me to be some sort of idiot. I disagreed.
Quote from: Cain on March 25, 2010, 10:56:14 PM
You didn't lose me on it. Don't presume me to be some sort of idiot. I disagreed.
Forgive me, for I am a bit intoxicated. I am sorry I assumed "you had me up until" equaled "I lost you". Why do you disagree?
Because I've tried to start many things people have not given a crap about, things I put a lot of effort into.
Maybe some people get others involved that way, but apparently, I'm not one of them. I can put all the effort in the world into something, and I'll get a token pair of mittens and a "fuck yeah" or two. If that. And that's probably only because of my status on the site.
So you'll forgive me if I think doing more of the same will achieve anything.
Quote from: Cain on March 25, 2010, 11:12:57 PM
Because I've tried to start many things people have not given a crap about, things I put a lot of effort into.
Maybe some people get others involved that way, but apparently, I'm not one of them. I can put all the effort in the world into something, and I'll get a token pair of mittens and a "fuck yeah" or two. If that. And that's probably only because of my status on the site.
So you'll forgive me if I think doing more of the same will achieve anything.
I wish I had the ability to reply to your posts with more than a "Fuck yeah. Mittens and shit." but I often have to go away and do some research and a whole lot of thinking afterwards. If there are some threads in particular you need some responsish energy put into, though, point me at them and I'll try and put something coherent and useful into it to help the discussion continue. It can be hard as OP to keep it going when all you're getting is congratulatory responses, as if the discussion is over. I tend to go through all the unread posts when I log in, so if there's something that I've missed it's unlikely because I didn't give a crap about it but probably because I didn't think I had anything useful to add at the time. I dunno. Maybe others haven't contributed much because they feel the same.
Quote from: Sidónio Pães on March 26, 2010, 12:50:48 AM
Quote from: Cain on March 25, 2010, 11:12:57 PM
Because I've tried to start many things people have not given a crap about, things I put a lot of effort into.
Maybe some people get others involved that way, but apparently, I'm not one of them. I can put all the effort in the world into something, and I'll get a token pair of mittens and a "fuck yeah" or two. If that. And that's probably only because of my status on the site.
So you'll forgive me if I think doing more of the same will achieve anything.
I wish I had the ability to reply to your posts with more than a "Fuck yeah. Mittens and shit." but I often have to go away and do some research and a whole lot of thinking afterwards. If there are some threads in particular you need some responsish energy put into, though, point me at them and I'll try and put something coherent and useful into it to help the discussion continue. It can be hard as OP to keep it going when all you're getting is congratulatory responses, as if the discussion is over. I tend to go through all the unread posts when I log in, so if there's something that I've missed it's unlikely because I didn't give a crap about it but probably because I didn't think I had anything useful to add at the time. I dunno. Maybe others haven't contributed much because they feel the same.
I think this is pretty likely. I rarely have anything to add, for fear of spagging up a good OP.
That, of course, leads me to a question: is it better to add nothing or something worthless? Adding nothing doesn't clutter up the board, but a "mittens, fuck yeah" at least gives the OP knowledge that the post was read and liked.
Quote from: Cain on March 25, 2010, 11:12:57 PM
Because I've tried to start many things people have not given a crap about, things I put a lot of effort into.
Maybe some people get others involved that way, but apparently, I'm not one of them. I can put all the effort in the world into something, and I'll get a token pair of mittens and a "fuck yeah" or two. If that. And that's probably only because of my status on the site.
So you'll forgive me if I think doing more of the same will achieve anything.
How do you want people to react? What exactly are you aiming for?
More than mittens or "fuck yeah", okay I get that much.
But do you expect people to reply with their own well-thought out essays and studies of international politics? Because that may be a littlebit much to expect (at least, I couldnt).
Of course it's another thing to claim to be rendered speechless or anything. I usually give my mittens or "fuck yeah" to let you know I have read it and appreciate it, so you know it doesnt fall on dead ears. But when possible I try to fit in a littlebit more than that, a question or something. But often your piece is already so much information on the subject, I dont immediately desire more.
Actually, I was thinking of things like relaunching HIMEOBS, Philosopher of the Week or Verwirrung.
Anyway, my point was to illustrate how putting in effort and trying hard doesn't necessarily matter at all, and you can try and create a really cool project, only for people to give tacit support and not back it up with anything concrete at all. Like Howl said, this isn't about turning this into a creative writing site.
I'd be interested in helping with Verwirrung.
What I see right now is that all (well, most, but pretty much all) of 'our' content is currently hidden behind:
1: A static Homepage that doesn't really give an idea of what's happening NOW with Discordia (most recent things mentioned are "Our current projects are The Verwirrung Blog, The Choose Your Own Misadventure Wiki, The Golden Apple Seed Missions and The Discordian Radio Station." Really... because only 1 of those has momentum at the moment....).
2: A forum Login screen (yeah, yeah, guests can read everything but OM =P), and searching through multiple sub-forums and multiple threads to determine the wheat from the chaff.
I think this is hampering our memetic reach. We only get eyes in our direction if some-one from the forum gives out a direct link. I really think that #1 is the bigger problem, and that getting a core group of people to move (and format) content from the forum over to Verwirrung, and incorporate Verwirrung onto the front page would solve that. Especially if the posts included links back to the threads.
I know 000 is the one who was working on the front page, so we should brainstorm with him.
Quote from: Telarus on March 26, 2010, 04:29:05 PM
I'd be interested in helping with Verwirrung.
What I see right now is that all (well, most, but pretty much all) of 'our' content is currently hidden behind:
1: A static Homepage that doesn't really give an idea of what's happening NOW with Discordia (most recent things mentioned are "Our current projects are The Verwirrung Blog, The Choose Your Own Misadventure Wiki, The Golden Apple Seed Missions and The Discordian Radio Station." Really... because only 1 of those has momentum at the moment....).
2: A forum Login screen (yeah, yeah, guests can read everything but OM =P), and searching through multiple sub-forums and multiple threads to determine the wheat from the chaff.
I think this is hampering our memetic reach. We only get eyes in our direction if some-one from the forum gives out a direct link. I really think that #1 is the bigger problem, and that getting a core group of people to move (and format) content from the forum over to Verwirrung, and incorporate Verwirrung onto the front page would solve that. Especially if the posts included links back to the threads.
I know 000 is the one who was working on the front page, so we should brainstorm with him.
Cram gave me a list of threads to link on the front page and I completely forgot about it. The list might need to be updated but I can add it no problem.
I'm still down with writing stuff for Verwirrung, if folks are interested in kicking up writing again. I still get new comments from time to time on the old stuff.
So I'm going to make another comment. I mean it to be constructive and to spur discussion, so please no one take it as insult or anything..
Personally, I think a 'part' (not the main part, but a part) of our problem here at PD is maybe that we have expectations that are out of line with reality. Sure, we might come up with something full of awesome and win (we sure have in the past)... but that happens due to inspiration, muse and the fifty previous concepts that fell flat on their face. Sometimes I get the feeling that we see ourselves as 'The NEW DISCORDIA' and hold some expectation that we will change the face of Discordia, or have the most awesome projects in Limbo, or something... but generally our best stuff happens in the moment... not in the expectation.
I wonder how much of the in-fighting and perceived discontent is a result of expectations not being met... maybe because they're too high, or because past success is causing us to forget how those successes happened (sometimes it seems incidental, a explosion of interest based on an accidental muse). Have we disappointed ourselves, because we expected too much, or because our egos led us to expect too much?
Just a thought, please no one explode.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on March 25, 2010, 09:45:43 PM
Which old ways? Can you point out the 50 page threads about *stabby stabby* and tequila? Or the threads about Really Real Discordianism? Or the spasms of mod abuse, real and accused? Or perhaps the old way of this board not existing at all, or with three posters dropping in once a month? Bad as "facebook for weirdos" may be, there is always, always worse, and this board has seen it.
so....because something could be worse than it is now, that means there's no point in trying to improve it?
Quote from: Cain on March 25, 2010, 11:12:57 PM
Because I've tried to start many things people have not given a crap about, things I put a lot of effort into.
Maybe some people get others involved that way, but apparently, I'm not one of them. I can put all the effort in the world into something, and I'll get a token pair of mittens and a "fuck yeah" or two. If that. And that's probably only because of my status on the site.
So you'll forgive me if I think doing more of the same will achieve anything.
Honestly Cain, your rants, and the fascism series... are the primary reason I've continued to pay attention to this site.
For whatever that is worth.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 26, 2010, 06:07:18 PM
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on March 25, 2010, 09:45:43 PM
Which old ways? Can you point out the 50 page threads about *stabby stabby* and tequila? Or the threads about Really Real Discordianism? Or the spasms of mod abuse, real and accused? Or perhaps the old way of this board not existing at all, or with three posters dropping in once a month? Bad as "facebook for weirdos" may be, there is always, always worse, and this board has seen it.
so....because something could be worse than it is now, that means there's no point in trying to improve it?
Naw. I'm just saying it gives you a little perspective. Also the fact that this thread hasn't gone down in flames (yet) is really awesome.
I think the main problem is that we've gotten used to complaining about problems.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 26, 2010, 08:00:53 PM
I think the main problem is that we've gotten used to complaining about problems.
:lulz:
How meta, Dok
Stabbings and tequilas are both relevant to my interests. I may regret asking but tell me more...
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 26, 2010, 08:03:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 26, 2010, 08:00:53 PM
I think the main problem is that we've gotten used to complaining about problems.
:lulz:
How meta, Dok
Sorry I tried to help.
Carry on.
Quote from: Richter on March 26, 2010, 08:06:40 PM
Stabbings and tequilas are both relevant to my interests. I may regret asking but tell me more...
Some things are best left to the pleasures of IRL.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 26, 2010, 06:07:18 PM
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on March 25, 2010, 09:45:43 PM
Which old ways? Can you point out the 50 page threads about *stabby stabby* and tequila? Or the threads about Really Real Discordianism? Or the spasms of mod abuse, real and accused? Or perhaps the old way of this board not existing at all, or with three posters dropping in once a month? Bad as "facebook for weirdos" may be, there is always, always worse, and this board has seen it.
so....because something could be worse than it is now, that means there's no point in trying to improve it?
or she didnt notice i was talking about pre coop
since in pd age: this monkey < badger
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 26, 2010, 08:24:10 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 26, 2010, 08:19:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 26, 2010, 08:07:51 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 26, 2010, 08:03:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 26, 2010, 08:00:53 PM
I think the main problem is that we've gotten used to complaining about problems.
:lulz:
How meta, Dok
Sorry I tried to help.
Carry on.
I liked it.
Oh...Sometimes it's hard to tell.
I don't try to piss on people...(sombunal of the time anyway) ;-)
just dont whistle while doing it
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2010, 12:53:08 AM
1. Each of us, almost all of us, have gotten fat, stupid, and lazy. We recognized the BIP, so we think we beat it (welcome to your new cell, same as the old cell). We've put on filters because it's easier than thinking, and we all shout and bellow, but never fucking listen. We - as a group - cannot even read anymore. We SEE the words, and we may even KNOW WHAT THEY SAY, but we don't really LISTEN, because we've already decided we know everyfuckingthing and anything we don't know is just commentary.
2. This isn't facebook for weirdos, it's facebook for REALLY FUCKING HUGE EGOS. Yeah, I include myself in that. It's not about discordianism now, it's about "Who's Who on PD". It's about whining that your posts aren't appreciated, 60 seconds after you shit all over someone else's thread. It's about screeching incessantly that you're an authority on something. It's about ME ME ME ME ME.
3. We've gotten so lazy being mad that we've forgotten how to have fun. Also, this place is starting to resemble the hell scene from JTHM. Everyone is desperate to BE SEEN BEING SOMEBODY (whether or not they're really like that makes no difference). I can only speak for myself, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of people insisting that people recognize how cool they are, or how they're a fucking expert on one subject or another, or how they're TOO IMPORTANT TO HAVE ANY FUCKING FUN, because it's BENEATH THEIR DIGNITY. Likewise, in the threads that ARE serious, SHOW A LITTLE COMMON SENSE and DON'T ASSUME THAT YOUR WIT WILL BE FOUND FUNNY BY SOMEONE WHO SPENT AN HOUR OR SO THINKING UP AND WRITING A RANT.
"Faced with information overload, we have no alternative but pattern recognition."
Marshall McLuhan
I see all three of your above points as arising naturally from the volume of material which fills this forum - I'm sure I'm not the only one who faces information overload when trying to keep up with PD.com:
1) It is an impossibility to read and fully consider every point made in every post, so we pass them through existing pattern recognition filters.
2 + 3) An ego is essential for keeping your place in the pecking order - if you don't think you're worth listening to, it's harder to convince others that you are. If you aren't a respected voice, chances are great that whatever you do write will be skimmed over without the same level of consideration.
That is the root of the problem as I see it. I think the best solution would be to look at how to tag/rate/categorise forum content rather than reduce the overall volume, but either should work.
this place is nuts
ive been here a while relatively
This is one of my favourite threads to read when I'm bored. It's cohesive, and doesn't wander much, and there's some seriously deep shit in here from some right clever bastards. I agree with whoever is saying that we need to step back sometimes, before we can focus effectively. If I hadn't actually sat back and read the thing, And absorbed some bits of it, I might be considering something pointless, like bringing up the fluff vs stuff thing or something. And on any other site I probably would. This is a "focus" thread. For me,at any rate. Why would I want to blur anything?
That's why this thread is an exemplary part of what is right with PD. because it's not just threads where the last 2 or 3 posts have any relevance, people read right back, even if they aren't posting, and it's quite grounding. We think of conversations lasting a few minutes at a time, but there are conversations in PD, that have been going on for years. That's the equivelant of a Giant Sequoia to what we usually call conversations. That's why people like it I suppose. Duck out now, before I start wandering. :|
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on March 25, 2010, 07:28:38 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2010, 12:53:08 AM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 24, 2010, 06:23:22 PM
I wasn't very eloquent about trying to present this idea before, so instead of trying to cut through 20+ pages of idiocy to revive the first thread I started on the topic, I'm making this shiny new one. I'd really like everyone's feedback on this, provided it's thoughtful rather than some lame attempt at a snarky one-liner.
I think the problem is that for whatever reason, PD has become less a place where people trade ideas and thoughts about what's going on in the world around them, how their interactions with the world around them effect themselves and others, and how we might be able to harness and/or direct that and more about presenting everything from a personal and purely self-centered framework.
IOW, we used to bitch about our jobs/politicians/etc. and apply these gripes to a larger framework or use them to build to an overarching point about something besides ourselves, now we just bitch about our jobs/politicians/etc. BECAUSE of how it effects us. It's one thing to occasionally interject an interesting or amusing purely personal story into the dialogue. It reminds us that we're some bizarre permutation of a tribe and that we're here to help each other progress and build. But when that kind of dialogue overtakes everything else and becomes the FOCUS of the site, we've really literally become nothing more than "facebook for weirdos". The foundation of this site is the desire to understand the processes that rule our environment well enough to be able to use them for our own ends (even if we have wildly differing ends amongst ourtselves), not the desire to know what you and your boyfriend did last night or what petty personal tribulations you are going through on a daily basis. I apologize if that's not what some of you want out of PD.com, but you are free to discuss all of those things amongst yourselves via PM, or IRC, or, you know, some other forum that's meant for that sort of thing. I used to think that unfettered growth of this site was to be desired for its own sake, now I realize that was just ego talking for me and that really this place might be better off (in the context of it's original stated purpose) being smaller and leaner. I don't know what can be done to impose this, and I'm not certain that I should even attempt to impose anything here anymore, but I want everyone to be very clear about what my problem is, at the very least.
Problem isn't fluff, or narcissism, or heavy-handedness, or any of that shit.
There are three problems:
1. Each of us, almost all of us, have gotten fat, stupid, and lazy. We recognized the BIP, so we think we beat it (welcome to your new cell, same as the old cell). We've put on filters because it's easier than thinking, and we all shout and bellow, but never fucking listen. We - as a group - cannot even read anymore. We SEE the words, and we may even KNOW WHAT THEY SAY, but we don't really LISTEN, because we've already decided we know everyfuckingthing and anything we don't know is just commentary.
2. This isn't facebook for weirdos, it's facebook for REALLY FUCKING HUGE EGOS. Yeah, I include myself in that. It's not about discordianism now, it's about "Who's Who on PD". It's about whining that your posts aren't appreciated, 60 seconds after you shit all over someone else's thread. It's about screeching incessantly that you're an authority on something. It's about ME ME ME ME ME.
3. We've gotten so lazy being mad that we've forgotten how to have fun. Also, this place is starting to resemble the hell scene from JTHM. Everyone is desperate to BE SEEN BEING SOMEBODY (whether or not they're really like that makes no difference). I can only speak for myself, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of people insisting that people recognize how cool they are, or how they're a fucking expert on one subject or another, or how they're TOO IMPORTANT TO HAVE ANY FUCKING FUN, because it's BENEATH THEIR DIGNITY. Likewise, in the threads that ARE serious, SHOW A LITTLE COMMON SENSE and DON'T ASSUME THAT YOUR WIT WILL BE FOUND FUNNY BY SOMEONE WHO SPENT AN HOUR OR SO THINKING UP AND WRITING A RANT.
It's really fucking simple, people. Show a little consideration, stop worrying about your status/image/expertise so fucking much, and loosen up a bit.
And someone smack Enki. No, fucking serious here.
Holy fuck yes to all of that.
Dok, explain a little please. Does your comments extend to things like the book I am writing? Just curious.