http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/36257199/ns/today-today_people/
QuoteAaron Vargas has been in jail ever since Feb. 8, 2009, when police say he shot and killed Darrell McNeill, the man he alleges sexually abused him when he was just 11 years old. After the shooting, 12 other men came forward to say that McNeill, a former Boy Scoutleader and popular member of the community, had also abused them. Some had reported the abuse but law enforcement officials took no action.
People are rallying that this guy should be released. What do you guys think? I'm a bit torn on the matter, especially given my history. On one hand IF this man was guilty of molesting children I think he can go rot in hell. But what if he's innocent? Or, is it worse to commit murder? Was Vargas justified in killing this man?
What do you think?
I think there's generally a due process involved for these things. And while kiddy fiddling is reprehensible, death is a pretty high price to pay for it.
Murder is murder, unfortunately.
Or he shot an innocent guy, and hopes having 12 other men lie along with him will let him get away with it.
I also doubt shooting him made things better.
If the government can whack an "alleged" terrorist, this is just the next logical step. :horrormirth:
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:06:37 PM
I think there's generally a due process involved for these things. And while kiddy fiddling is reprehensible, death is a pretty high price to pay for it.
from the article, it is implied that he only confronted the accused molester after he had a child himself and felt that his daughter might become the next victim....
all i can say is that
i would kill a motherfucker, too, if they molested my child or i felt they were going to.
it also indicated in the article that his sentence may be reduced to the time that he's already served.
it's
not good, however to set precedent that vigilante justice should get the official stamp of approval by the state...
also, a cap and ball gun?! really? i wonder what the thinking was there....
If you're driven to murder someone, even for a just cause such as molestation, you need to be evaluated. The correct course of action is to inform authorities and have them take care of it.
If someone molested one of my children a quick death by gunshot is what the motherfucker would be praying for...... Because slow and agonizing is what they would get!
If that makes me mentally unstable, I am fairly certain a good 80% of parents worldwide fall into that category.
Quote from: Khara on April 08, 2010, 05:26:11 PM
If someone molested one of my children a quick death by gunshot is what the motherfucker would be praying for...... Because slow and agonizing is what they would get!
If that makes me mentally unstable, I am fairly certain a good 80% of parents worldwide fall into that category.
Slow and agonizing? How is that any better than what the molester did then? What moral high ground is that?
So, does 1+1=0, then?
Quote from: Hoopla on April 08, 2010, 05:29:25 PM
Quote from: Khara on April 08, 2010, 05:26:11 PM
If someone molested one of my children a quick death by gunshot is what the motherfucker would be praying for...... Because slow and agonizing is what they would get!
If that makes me mentally unstable, I am fairly certain a good 80% of parents worldwide fall into that category.
Slow and agonizing? How is that any better than what the molester did then? What moral high ground is that?
So, does 1+1=0, then?
Sometimes reality doesn't have moral high ground...
I can't disagree that if some slimefuck molested my hypothetical kids, I would certainly want to kill him. But acting on that impulse would be wrong. If murdering a molester is acceptable, what about murdering somebody who rammed your brand new car? Or destroyed your livelihood through litigation? Or signed a bill you disagree with?
vigilante justice is awesome
but there are good reasons why you're not allowed to take the law into your own hands
Quote from: Hoopla on April 08, 2010, 05:29:25 PM
Quote from: Khara on April 08, 2010, 05:26:11 PM
If someone molested one of my children a quick death by gunshot is what the motherfucker would be praying for...... Because slow and agonizing is what they would get!
If that makes me mentally unstable, I am fairly certain a good 80% of parents worldwide fall into that category.
Slow and agonizing? How is that any better than what the molester did then? What moral high ground is that?
So, does 1+1=0, then?
Hoops, I don't give a flying fuck about any fucking moral high ground.
If some motherfucker molested one of my children they would suffer. I don't think it's better, in fact my goal would be to make it a billion times worse if I could.
And it's probably just as much from the feelings of failing my child as much as the hatred for them hurting my child. Either way, if I could, I would I think.
The true question for me is do I have that in me?
While, on a level, I can understand where the guy's coming from, it would make more sense to me if something was happening in the here and now (i.e., someone just molested my hypothetical child) my first reaction would want to go out and tear that person limb from limb. But this was something that happened years ago, and just because he thought there was a threat to his daughter from this guy doesn't mean there was (I mean, he wasn't putting her in a boy scout troop run by this guy, right?). And he probably does need some sort of mental health care (if he hasn't already) if he did perceive an immediate threat.
In this situation, while I understand where the guy's feelings are probably coming from (assuming the allegations are true), the authorities should have been contacted since this is something that's been lingering for years, not a right now, knee-jerk reaction to something happening. Not that I want to encourage vigilante justice either, but a knee-jerk reaction would be more understandable, or at least make me more sympathetic to him in this situation.
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:37:18 PM
I can't disagree that if some slimefuck molested my hypothetical kids, I would certainly want to kill him. But acting on that impulse would be wrong. If murdering a molester is acceptable, what about murdering somebody who rammed your brand new car? Or destroyed your livelihood through litigation? Or signed a bill you disagree with?
vigilante justice is awesome
but there are good reasons why you're not allowed to take the law into your own hands
Molesting a child and a wrecked car, lost job or bill signing are not in the same category. Come on!
well where exactly is the line where if somebody does something, it's cool to torture them to death?
Quote from: Khara on April 08, 2010, 05:39:08 PM
If some motherfucker molested one of my children they would suffer.
What about if someone was only
accused of molesting your children?
Remember, the only proof that this guy was a pedophile is hearsay evidence.
Or, more relevant to the case at hand, what if you believed he molested your kid, but had no evidence?
I mean, "Man shoots pedophile as he was in the process of molesting his daughter" is a bit different than "man shoots accused pedophile because he was suspicious".
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:41:14 PM
well where exactly is the line where if somebody does something, it's cool to torture them to death?
Are you really going to go there?
I don't know. I guess for me and IMO it's the pervs that fuck with the children. And yes, I think a slow torturous death is what they deserve. That shit fucks up a kid FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE! They do this shit to a defenseless child and it's worse to me than almost anything.
Otherwise, I can't say. I just know how I feel, especially regarding my own children. They're my world. And truthfully, until you have kids, you have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to be a bitch, but it's true. When they first put JW in my arms everything in my world completely changed. I thought I knew before, but I was clueless until he was born. The mere thought of someone doing that to him or either one of my other two, god the rage at just the thought is beyond comprehension. Sorry. It's the way I feel.
If it makes me unliked, well that is just the way it is.
Quote from: LMNO on April 08, 2010, 05:47:52 PM
Quote from: Khara on April 08, 2010, 05:39:08 PM
If some motherfucker molested one of my children they would suffer.
What about if someone was only accused of molesting your children?
Remember, the only proof that this guy was a pedophile is hearsay evidence.
Or, more relevant to the case at hand, what if you believed he molested your kid, but had no evidence?
I'm not going to fuck someone up on hearsay, come on!
But if my child came to me with it......
i would like to point out that the article says there were accusations leveled against this guy in the past and the police did not follow up on it.
also. i would say that i would be hard pressed not to kill somebody that i believed molested my child whether or not there was enough evidence that it would stand up in court. if i believed it, then there would obviously be enough evidence in my mind that it happened. if i had doubts, i would seek further information.
further, i wouldn't say that the revenge/justice is ethical, just as Khara said, that would be a remote question in my mind at that point....
I don't know about death, but a good ol baseball batting is a good lesson teacher.
Give em something to remember.
Every time they look in the mirror, and see what you've done to their face, they'll remember why.
For as much as the thought of child molestation sickens me, I can't say that the death penalty is really the way to go. When you think of it, it's almost a release from their sick madness. I can't imagine the mind of a kiddy fiddler being too particularly calm and serene.
I would think people like that hate themselves, contemplate suicide, wish they weren't the way they were. I mean, it's kind of like putting down a sick mangled dog.
But fuck if I know ::shrug::
All's I gotta say is if somebody touched my kid, I'd just fucking cut their face and break their leg.
Quote from: Khara on April 08, 2010, 05:49:15 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:41:14 PM
well where exactly is the line where if somebody does something, it's cool to torture them to death?
Are you really going to go there?
I think that if we're discussing when it's okay to torture somebody to death, it's fair game to ask exactly how slippery that slope is.
Please note that I'm not telling you that you shouldn't go kill the guy. If it were me, I might off him too. But I hope you do understand that killing him would
also be wrong. Perhaps wrong on a greater scale than the original crime.
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 06:08:03 PM
Quote from: Khara on April 08, 2010, 05:49:15 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:41:14 PM
well where exactly is the line where if somebody does something, it's cool to torture them to death?
Are you really going to go there?
I think that if we're discussing when it's okay to torture somebody to death, it's fair game to ask exactly how slippery that slope is.
Please note that I'm not telling you that you shouldn't go kill the guy. If it were me, I might off him too. But I hope you do understand that killing him would also be wrong. Perhaps wrong on a greater scale than the original crime.
It very well may be worse. I don't think I would care. What would justice do? Pop him in prison for 3-5 years? Oh yeah theres a punishment that fits the crime.
My concern is not whether it is ok, my concern is putting as much pain on one person's body that it can handle. I'll know what that limit is when they're dead.
Or, like Squid said. That
might work for me.
My biggest goal would be the pain. If I felt better before they were dead, eh... ok. If not, that's ok with me too. it's not a morality question for me. It's hurting the fucker that hurt my child.
Quote from: LMNO on April 08, 2010, 05:47:52 PM
Quote from: Khara on April 08, 2010, 05:39:08 PM
If some motherfucker molested one of my children they would suffer.
What about if someone was only accused of molesting your children?
Remember, the only proof that this guy was a pedophile is hearsay evidence.
Or, more relevant to the case at hand, what if you believed he molested your kid, but had no evidence?
I mean, "Man shoots pedophile as he was in the process of molesting his daughter" is a bit different than "man shoots accused pedophile because he was suspicious".
Nice add on
AFTER I responded..... :argh!: :wink:
And again, shooting is what the fucker would pray for!
Castration and removal of most of the flesh of the penis so they can't even touch it enough to get some semblance of a wank. All they'll be able to do with it afterwards is piss.
Oh, and topical anesthetic only, if any.
Quote from: Suu on April 08, 2010, 06:26:17 PM
Castration and removal of most of the flesh of the penis so they can't even touch it enough to get some semblance of a wank. All they'll be able to do with it afterwards is piss.
Oh, and topical anesthetic only, if any.
:mittens:
Suu, I wish you lived closer. I need friends who truly understand.... :lulz:
Don't they have a chemical castration?
Let's not forget though, there are also women kiddy fiddlers. It isn't just men.
So what would you do then? Remove clitoris?
Bah, just cut their fucking face. A good slice downward from cheek to chin across their mouth oughta teach em.
Breaking their hands beyond good use is also not such a bad idea. I mean, kinda hard to grab a kid with gimpy fingers that look like chewed up hot dogs.
But still, I think living with the constant reminder of what they've done and why they were mangled is a fate far worse than the quick release of death.
Also, it wouldn't do a parent any good to be in prison for the rest of their life, right?
All I want is to be with my family. If I killed a jackass, I wouldn't be around to see my kid grow up so it's kind of counter productive. In fact, they kind of WIN when you look at it that way.
Just cut their face.
I think everyone ITT is missing the more relevant point, which is that if you're gonna off someone for something that you think they really truly deserve to be killed for...
...DON'T GET CAUGHT.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on April 08, 2010, 06:44:36 PM
I think everyone ITT is missing the more relevant point, which is that if you're gonna off someone for something that you think they really truly deserve to be killed for...
...DON'T GET CAUGHT.
And that is what GatorWorld is for........
Just throw the pieces over the wall and drive away.
:wink:
Excuse me for being all rigorously moral but killing a person, no matter what he did, isn't the way to go about bringing justice. The guy is a murderer, he shouldn't be let go.
Quote from: LMNO on April 08, 2010, 05:47:52 PM
Quote from: Khara on April 08, 2010, 05:39:08 PM
If some motherfucker molested one of my children they would suffer.
What about if someone was only accused of molesting your children?
Remember, the only proof that this guy was a pedophile is hearsay evidence.
Or, more relevant to the case at hand, what if you believed he molested your kid, but had no evidence?
I mean, "Man shoots pedophile as he was in the process of molesting his daughter" is a bit different than "man shoots accused pedophile because he was suspicious".
Except for the part where the "murderer" says that he, personally, was molested by this guy.
So, either
A) The man is mentally unstable and believes fantasies enough that he's willing to kill someone over it... and should be in a mental hospital
or
B) The man was mentally damaged by this Scout Leader when he was a child, damage that ultimately led to him killing the Scout Leader. In which case the Scout Leader sort of caused his own demise.
If its A, then its just an example of a crazy monkey. If its B, then fuck that dude he got what he deserved.
Khara, how does murdering the guy who molested your child do justice for your child?
So you get locked up for a long time and your kids grow up without the support of their mom.
I wouldn't kill a person who molested my child.
I'm willing to serve some time for a savage assault but a murder conviction is far too long to be away from my family.
If you murder a pedophile, it's still murder.
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 08, 2010, 07:02:30 PM
Except for the part where the "murderer" says that he, personally, was molested by this guy.
^this^
At the risk of being a disgustingly obnoxious and pedantic noob, the right hypothetical in this case isn't what we'd do if someone did that to our kid. The "would you do it/how fucked up is this" becomes
"If you knew...
- people had tried reporting the guy in the past
- what the guy was capable of from 17 years of first hand experience
- he was fucking his stepson
and he was
- stalker-wooing you
- hassling you to spend time alone with your kid..."
I know everyone's already read the article, but I'm a huge fan of context. For the record, I'm in the face-cutter hand-smashing camp. 3-5 for fucking kids is psychotic.
But I call shenanigans on the community that's suddenly rallying behind Vargas. The 'idyllic town' claims shock-horror and release the murderer... That much community support (and I'm from a small town) indicates to me that people knew what was going on, and showing support for Vargas now might just be a desperate grab at claiming innocence. The story's so full of allegeds, just thought I'd add another to the pile.
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on April 08, 2010, 07:09:39 PM
Khara, how does murdering the guy who molested your child do justice for your child?
So you get locked up for a long time and your kids grow up without the support of their mom.
I wouldn't kill a person who molested my child.
I'm willing to serve some time for a savage assault but a murder conviction is far too long to be away from my family.
OK...
Let's not just presume I am going to get caught.
It's not like I'm going to come on here and say oh I just killed this fucking pedo.....
I'm not looking for justice, revenge works just fine for me!
I wouldn't kill someone who hurt any of my kids, but I think it ought to be a capital offense.
And they'd have nothing but SCRAPS left for face when I got through with them.
I probably would have murdered the guy too, but I'd still be a murderer. That said, I hope the guy gets off.
If someone went after my kids they wouldn't make it to court.
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on April 08, 2010, 07:25:39 PM
If you murder a pedophile, it's still murder.
Yes, and if you murder a pedophile that raped you as a child... I say bully for you.
GODDAMN! This thread exploded while I was out on my bike ride.
I can see both sides. On one hand I have no problem crossing my fingers that assholebrother's plane goes down in flames one of these days. But on the other hand. I'd never murder him. Murder is murder. I think though, if it were my kid-especially due to my history-I'd be in camp with Khara. They'd have to make sure I NEVER met them in person.
I think with this guy though, regardless of whether they decide to give him a prison sentence or not, he should at LEAST be required to attend counseling and kept for a while in some sort of mental hospital so he can receive treatment, because obviously he needs it.
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 08, 2010, 07:37:00 PM
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on April 08, 2010, 07:25:39 PM
If you murder a pedophile, it's still murder.
Yes, and if you murder a pedophile that raped you as a child... I say bully for you.
Capital! I'm going to get my elephant gun! Let's go on a pedophile safari!
\
(http://blog.beliefnet.com/progressiverevival/imgs/Teddy%20Roosevelt.jpg)
Quote from: Sparkley Pink Shit on April 08, 2010, 07:37:13 PM
I think with this guy though, regardless of whether they decide to give him a prison sentence or not, he should at LEAST be required to attend counseling and kept for a while in some sort of mental hospital so he can receive treatment, because obviously he needs it.
Agreed SPS!
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/kiddyfiddler.jpg)
ECH beat me to it. The greatest mistake here was "being a pedo", followed closely by "getting caught offing a pedo".
Few here are really certain they wouldn't have done the same, so I think the interesting question is "what makes being molested (a psychological wound) justify death (the ultimate wound)?"
I think it is reasonable to say that people generally consider psychological attacks more serious than death. And to an extent I can concur. If someone had a device that could cause schizophrenia, and intended to use it, I would have no compunction with killing him in the most expedient manner. This is not that different from someone who is willing to rape others, which also causes serious psychological damage, to my thinking.
Well who's to say that some victims of sexual abuse (or other forms) aren't emotionally dead? Or those who end up committing suicide? Does that count as murder? Why/why not?
In some ways it is more serious than murder, because the suffering is indefinite. Murder only hurts for a little while.
One can also argue that from a group consciousness level, a community can only consciously put up with a stressor like a (very likely, if not known) pedophile in their midst for so long before someone releases that pressure.
It's up to community standards and the local cultural narrative to determine whether that manifests as a hanging mob, the police being called, or a lone person snapping and shanking the threat to the community.
Quote from: Turdley Burgleson on April 08, 2010, 06:39:19 PM
Don't they have a chemical castration?
Let's not forget though, there are also women kiddy fiddlers. It isn't just men.
So what would you do then? Remove clitoris?
Bah, just cut their fucking face. A good slice downward from cheek to chin across their mouth oughta teach em.
Breaking their hands beyond good use is also not such a bad idea. I mean, kinda hard to grab a kid with gimpy fingers that look like chewed up hot dogs.
But still, I think living with the constant reminder of what they've done and why they were mangled is a fate far worse than the quick release of death.
Also, it wouldn't do a parent any good to be in prison for the rest of their life, right?
All I want is to be with my family. If I killed a jackass, I wouldn't be around to see my kid grow up so it's kind of counter productive. In fact, they kind of WIN when you look at it that way.
Just cut their face.
Chemical castration...Acid on the ol' nutsack, amirite?
Imagine the hissing sound of it eating it's way through the balls. HEHEHEHEHEHEHEEEEE.
And women need to be maimed too. Definitely. Unfortunately we can't just sew their vags shut because of far worse health concerns. Maybe they can just be given cunt cancer and denied treatment?
Quote from: Suu on April 08, 2010, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: Turdley Burgleson on April 08, 2010, 06:39:19 PM
Don't they have a chemical castration?
Let's not forget though, there are also women kiddy fiddlers. It isn't just men.
So what would you do then? Remove clitoris?
Bah, just cut their fucking face. A good slice downward from cheek to chin across their mouth oughta teach em.
Breaking their hands beyond good use is also not such a bad idea. I mean, kinda hard to grab a kid with gimpy fingers that look like chewed up hot dogs.
But still, I think living with the constant reminder of what they've done and why they were mangled is a fate far worse than the quick release of death.
Also, it wouldn't do a parent any good to be in prison for the rest of their life, right?
All I want is to be with my family. If I killed a jackass, I wouldn't be around to see my kid grow up so it's kind of counter productive. In fact, they kind of WIN when you look at it that way.
Just cut their face.
Chemical castration...Acid on the ol' nutsack, amirite?
Imagine the hissing sound of it eating it's way through the balls. HEHEHEHEHEHEHEEEEE.
And women need to be maimed too. Definitely. Unfortunately we can't just sew their vags shut because of far worse health concerns. Maybe they can just be given cunt cancer and denied treatment?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Quote from: Sparkley Pink Shit on April 08, 2010, 08:09:17 PM
Well who's to say that some victims of sexual abuse (or other forms) aren't emotionally dead? Or those who end up committing suicide? Does that count as murder? Why/why not?
I don't think you can be emotionally dead. A human being is a miraculously resilient thing, able to find growth an inspiration in the oddest (and often darkest) of places.
If you do something to somebody and they kill themselves, you are not a murderer, even if they blame you for their suicide. In the end, they are the ones that chose to kill themselves, they are the ones with control over their own life.
Morally, I'd say it's never right to torture someone to death.
If someone threatened my family, I really don't know how I'd react. People who've attacked me, I've forgone taking free hits or going for a kill once they were held down, but that was more me not wanting to go to jail on their account.
It's very easy to argue what you would or wouldn't do to someone while sitting at your computer. Case in point:
(http://www.reoiv.com/images/random/internet_tough_guy.jpg)
"Murder is Murder" isnt really true i think...which is why you can kill in self defense or defense of another...
so if the guy was continuously molesting children his murder can be said to be in their defense.
but yeah blah blah use the police etc whatever is moar better
Self-defense is seems to be restricted to when there is an imminent risk of death.
Quote from: Cain on April 08, 2010, 08:27:43 PM
It's very easy to argue what you would or wouldn't do to someone while sitting at your computer. Case in point:
(http://www.reoiv.com/images/random/internet_tough_guy.jpg)
It's hard do say what you would actually do until you're faced with the situation, but I don't think shooting someone who molested your kid would be an unlikely possibility for many people.
Also, I like how there's a marine sticker and an army ranger sticker on that kid's computer.
Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on April 08, 2010, 08:59:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 08, 2010, 08:27:43 PM
It's very easy to argue what you would or wouldn't do to someone while sitting at your computer. Case in point:
(http://www.reoiv.com/images/random/internet_tough_guy.jpg)
It's hard do say what you would actually do until you're faced with the situation, but I don't think shooting someone who molested your kid would be an unlikely possibility for many people.
Also, I like how there's a marine sticker and an army ranger sticker on that kid's computer.
IAWTC
Stuff like that seems like it may well trigger some of those 'basic programs' in the monkey brain... and Monkeys can do horrible things.
Still ITG syndrome. What they may do is irrelevant, the fact that some people feel the need to tell us what they would suppsedly do makes it ITG syndrome.
Quote from: Cain on April 08, 2010, 09:05:47 PM
Still ITG syndrome. What they may do is irrelevant, the fact that some people feel the need to tell us what they would suppsedly do makes it ITG syndrome.
I think you may be misusing that term.
Two wrongs don't might a right...
but THREE LEFTS DO
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 08, 2010, 09:09:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 08, 2010, 09:05:47 PM
Still ITG syndrome. What they may do is irrelevant, the fact that some people feel the need to tell us what they would suppsedly do makes it ITG syndrome.
I think you may be misusing that term.
Not really, since they're talking about hypothetical situations.
well i have no clue what i would do, i just think the guy who did it might not be as wrong as everyone else here thinks.
aka FRED APPROVES OF MURDER (exaggerating my statement so you dont have to!)
Quote from: Cain on April 08, 2010, 09:15:48 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 08, 2010, 09:09:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 08, 2010, 09:05:47 PM
Still ITG syndrome. What they may do is irrelevant, the fact that some people feel the need to tell us what they would suppsedly do makes it ITG syndrome.
I think you may be misusing that term.
Not really, since they're talking about hypothetical situations.
Huh, as I understood it, ITG's are tough on the Net, because of the anonymity and a personal feeling of inadequacy; responding to 'internet' situations as though they were important real life threats... What I've seen here seems more like an emotional response to a hypothetical situation... once faced with the situation maybe people would just punch the guy in the face or flip him the bird.
ITG - "if you said that to my face, I'd knock you the fuck out"
ITT - "if you touched my kid I'd castrate you and drop acid all over your balls"
No difference of any real relevance.
Alleged <-----the magic word.
Vigilante justice rarely gets it right. There was a case in the UK a few years ago when a load of idiots attacked a Doctor's house because they were too fucking stupid to know the difference between 'pediatrician' and 'pedophile'.
Quote from: Cain on April 08, 2010, 09:27:20 PM
ITG - "if you said that to my face, I'd knock you the fuck out"
ITT - "if you touched my kid I'd castrate you and drop acid all over your balls"
No difference of any real relevance.
Sure, maybe the ITT should have ePrimed their comments ("If someone touched my kid, I think that I would be very upset and consider pouring acid on their ballsack, though I have no way of knowing if I, in fact, would do such a thing")... but it still seems more like a emotional response to an emotional hypothetical than an enraged response for getting banned from a forum... or getting called a name online.
Quote from: Mangrove on April 08, 2010, 09:32:42 PM
Alleged <-----the magic word.
Vigilante justice rarely gets it right. There was a case in the UK a few years ago when a load of idiots attacked a Doctor's house because they were too fucking stupid to know the difference between 'pediatrician' and 'pedophile'.
"the man he alleges sexually abused
him when he was just 11 years old."
Personal justice != Vigilante justice
or maybe the guy is just crazy and believes he was abused at age 11 because of to much lead in the water.
Personally, if that guy was molested by the guy as a child, I wouldn't have a problem with him roaming around providing he go proper care/therapy. Because I don't view him as a danger to society at large-unlike someone with a hard on for killing people. Though that doesn't mean that I think nothing should happen But I'm wondering if in this case, it would be more appropriate to send him to a psych ward rather than to prison.
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 08, 2010, 09:34:55 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 08, 2010, 09:27:20 PM
ITG - "if you said that to my face, I'd knock you the fuck out"
ITT - "if you touched my kid I'd castrate you and drop acid all over your balls"
No difference of any real relevance.
Sure, maybe the ITT should have ePrimed their comments ("If someone touched my kid, I think that I would be very upset and consider pouring acid on their ballsack, though I have no way of knowing if I, in fact, would do such a thing")... but it still seems more like a emotional response to an emotional hypothetical than an enraged response for getting banned from a forum... or getting called a name online.
:facepalm:
Don't know why I bother sometimes.
From Merriam Webster:
Vigilante: A member of volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the process of law appear inadequate)
also: a self appointed doer of justice
Dude A claims Dude B molested him years ago. Dude A decides that the best way to settle the matter is to murder Dude B.
Dude A is a 'self-appointed doer of justice'. Thus, a vigilante.
This thread is one of those painful reads.
Yeah, it's getting there.
I think that murderers should be molested.
if only you could go back in time and molest your murderer preemptively
Cain, if I ever meet you I'm so going to kill you for pointing out ITG.
The issue I would take with that classification is nobody is directly threatening someone, which is key ITG syndrome. This seems more like a "if I had a million dollars" except with a greater degree of acid ball burning. Point well taken that saying one would do something is a far cry from actually doing it, and knowing what one would do is not likely without being confronted by the situation.
So there's unanimous agreement in this thread that child molestation is wrong. No big surprise there (btw watch Little Children for a decent movie on the subject, with the guy who played Rorschach as a pedophile). Khara and a few others described emotionally how they think their reactions would be, which is fine, but I think the key is that a few people said they would be willing to pay for what they'd done. So in the situation where one exacts justice, gets caught, would anyone here really expect to walk? I sure as hell wouldn't, and I don't think this guy should either. Setting precedent for justifiable murder and vigilantism is asinine, no matter how much the pedo deserved what he got.
It's been established by now that killing is an inappropriate response. What about putting the fucker in an oxygen tent?
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 11:44:04 PM
if only you could go back in time and molest your murderer preemptively
OH SHIT
explains everything! :eek:
SPS,
bad taste
Quote from: CAPTAIN SLACK on April 09, 2010, 12:06:34 AM
It's been established by now that killing is an inappropriate response. What about putting the fucker in an oxygen tent?
Yes, we should definitely not kill people, but let's all torture the pedos. That way we've totally got the moral high ground.
I'm not siding with whoever proposed torture, but death by vigilante is, to me, a fairly acceptable punitive sanction against rape. To my thinking it is not unreasonable to prohibit such behavior from enjoying the society they are working against.
Besides, the state spends millions on death row, and the vigilante spent what, a dollar and change?
Quote from: Sigmatic on April 09, 2010, 01:52:05 AM
Quote from: CAPTAIN SLACK on April 09, 2010, 12:06:34 AM
It's been established by now that killing is an inappropriate response. What about putting the fucker in an oxygen tent?
Yes, we should definitely not kill people, but let's all torture the pedos. That way we've totally got the moral high ground.
I'm not siding with whoever proposed torture, but death by vigilante is, to me, a fairly acceptable punitive sanction against rape. To my thinking it is not unreasonable to prohibit such behavior from enjoying the society they are working against.
Besides, the state spends millions on death row, and the vigilante spent what, a dollar and change?
A part of me wants to argue that a vigilante acting on impulse wouldn't be able to weigh up the evidence and assess the persons guilt compared to due process and a jury.
But at this stage I have my doubts.
Granted, but the guy
1) had firsthand evidence,
2) had other people come forward to say they were also molested.
Also, our death row has a fair number of innocents, for all their careful justice.
Quote from: Sigmatic on April 09, 2010, 02:02:09 AM
Also, our death row has a fair number of innocents, for all their careful justice.
That's why I had my doubts.
I'm completely against the death penalty but its easy for me to say that coming from a country that doesn't have/need it.
The reason I'd be against a first hand victim taking their own corrective measures on someone like this is that I don't think they as victims are getting the justice they deserve, if anything he is now both the victim of a child molester and a victim of his own suffering, allowing his pain to make him a murderer.
Quote from: Faust on April 09, 2010, 02:08:13 AM
Quote from: Sigmatic on April 09, 2010, 02:02:09 AM
Also, our death row has a fair number of innocents, for all their careful justice.
That's why I had my doubts.
I'm completely against the death penalty but its easy for me to say that coming from a country that doesn't have/need it.
The reason I'd be against a first hand victim taking their own corrective measures on someone like this is that I don't think they as victims are getting the justice they deserve, if anything he is now both the victim of a child molester and a victim of his own suffering, allowing his pain to make him a murderer.
But thats less a moral issue and more one of legality.
No mater what the law of the land, rape is rape... but "murder" depends on what the society considers justified and unjustified.
I'd kill him. If I was abused like that or someone I cared about had that happen to them, I'd off him. No torture, no explanations, just double tap to the back of the head. It's not about justice, it's about finishing it. I kill the bastard, it might net the loved one some closure and the fucker doesn't hurt any more kids. Knowing that I might have saved children from having that done to them would go a long way to ease a prison sentence.
Of course, I'd make sure I was completely certain of what he did before I took action. Not doing so makes what you're doing even worse.
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:06:37 PM
I think there's generally a due process involved for these things. And while kiddy fiddling is reprehensible, death is a pretty high price to pay for it.
Manslaughter at most. Personally, I'd just cite him for discharging a weapon inside city limits.
QuoteManslaughter at most. Personally, I'd just cite him for discharging a weapon inside city limits.
Hah. I like that. Justice is served (from the court perspective), and guy's life isn't destroyed. Nice.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 09, 2010, 03:15:55 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:06:37 PM
I think there's generally a due process involved for these things. And while kiddy fiddling is reprehensible, death is a pretty high price to pay for it.
Manslaughter at most. Personally, I'd just cite him for discharging a weapon inside city limits.
In this case, perhaps a Civil War Reenactment without a permit. (as it was an ancient cap and ball pistol that he used)
Quote from: Iptuous on April 09, 2010, 03:22:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 09, 2010, 03:15:55 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:06:37 PM
I think there's generally a due process involved for these things. And while kiddy fiddling is reprehensible, death is a pretty high price to pay for it.
Manslaughter at most. Personally, I'd just cite him for discharging a weapon inside city limits.
In this case, perhaps a Civil War Reenactment without a permit. (as it was an ancient cap and ball pistol that he used)
Then he should get bonus points for style.
Quote from: Iptuous on April 09, 2010, 03:22:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 09, 2010, 03:15:55 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:06:37 PM
I think there's generally a due process involved for these things. And while kiddy fiddling is reprehensible, death is a pretty high price to pay for it.
Manslaughter at most. Personally, I'd just cite him for discharging a weapon inside city limits.
In this case, perhaps a Civil War Reenactment without a permit. (as it was an ancient cap and ball pistol that he used)
you need a permit to reenact the civil war?
Quote from: Sparkley Pink Shit on April 09, 2010, 03:24:21 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 09, 2010, 03:22:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 09, 2010, 03:15:55 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:06:37 PM
I think there's generally a due process involved for these things. And while kiddy fiddling is reprehensible, death is a pretty high price to pay for it.
Manslaughter at most. Personally, I'd just cite him for discharging a weapon inside city limits.
In this case, perhaps a Civil War Reenactment without a permit. (as it was an ancient cap and ball pistol that he used)
you need a permit to reenact the civil war?
I would think so, they're firing old timey guns. Even if it is just blanks.
Quote from: Professor Freeky on April 09, 2010, 03:32:00 AM
Quote from: Sparkley Pink Shit on April 09, 2010, 03:24:21 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 09, 2010, 03:22:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 09, 2010, 03:15:55 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:06:37 PM
I think there's generally a due process involved for these things. And while kiddy fiddling is reprehensible, death is a pretty high price to pay for it.
Manslaughter at most. Personally, I'd just cite him for discharging a weapon inside city limits.
In this case, perhaps a Civil War Reenactment without a permit. (as it was an ancient cap and ball pistol that he used)
you need a permit to reenact the civil war?
I would think so, they're firing old timey guns. Even if it is just blanks.
Not in Arizona you don't.
AZ guys don't shoot blanks?!
damn.
i thought we were hard core about that shit in TX!
:wink:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 09, 2010, 03:33:34 AM
Quote from: Professor Freeky on April 09, 2010, 03:32:00 AM
Quote from: Sparkley Pink Shit on April 09, 2010, 03:24:21 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 09, 2010, 03:22:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 09, 2010, 03:15:55 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 05:06:37 PM
I think there's generally a due process involved for these things. And while kiddy fiddling is reprehensible, death is a pretty high price to pay for it.
Manslaughter at most. Personally, I'd just cite him for discharging a weapon inside city limits.
In this case, perhaps a Civil War Reenactment without a permit. (as it was an ancient cap and ball pistol that he used)
you need a permit to reenact the civil war?
I would think so, they're firing old timey guns. Even if it is just blanks.
Not in Arizona you don't.
Ah. Not being a big history fan, I wouldn't know about this sort of thing. But My ignorance has lessened today!
Quote from: Iptuous on April 09, 2010, 03:35:07 AM
AZ guys don't shoot blanks?!
damn.
i thought we were hard core about that shit in TX!
:wink:
:lol:
I was gonna comment on something 3 pages back, but this thread has painted itself in far too many layers of 'DURP!!" for me to want to contribute anything beyond a snarky comment and a general agreement with Cain.
(http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/4943/threeleftsroadsign275m.jpg) (http://img576.imageshack.us/i/threeleftsroadsign275m.jpg/)
the fragile nature of the molested killer with public outcry at most...
would net him a favourable jury
even tho they could find him innocent
my guess is that he will pled to a lesser charge...
say man slaughter and serve 6 months
maybe a free shrink job
as for the best punishment that would function as an alternative to murder;
id say the joker's cutting of the face has my vote
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 08, 2010, 05:14:13 PM
If the government can whack an "alleged" terrorist, this is just the next logical step. :horrormirth:
But that was in a
war zone and those cameras might have been RPGs!!
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 11:44:04 PM
if only you could go back in time and molest your murderer preemptively
What if it turned out that this was actually the case, in this story?
Who would have been will wrong, the molester or the murderer?
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 09, 2010, 02:35:28 AM
Quote from: Faust on April 09, 2010, 02:08:13 AM
Quote from: Sigmatic on April 09, 2010, 02:02:09 AM
Also, our death row has a fair number of innocents, for all their careful justice.
That's why I had my doubts.
I'm completely against the death penalty but its easy for me to say that coming from a country that doesn't have/need it.
The reason I'd be against a first hand victim taking their own corrective measures on someone like this is that I don't think they as victims are getting the justice they deserve, if anything he is now both the victim of a child molester and a victim of his own suffering, allowing his pain to make him a murderer.
But thats less a moral issue and more one of legality.
No mater what the law of the land, rape is rape... but "murder" depends on what the society considers justified and unjustified.
Morality will always be more important then legality in my mind and I hate that there is such a distinction between the two.
I still feel the same, the victim let himself down by killing this guy, I also find it pretty disturbing that so many people here are calling for blood. Ugh...... I was sexually abused as a kid and it messed me up for a long long time, I got through all that. This guy Aaron Vargas has allowed this guy to influence his life even further which is depressing as hell, when he was a kid he lost some of his freedom to this guy, now he's lost even more to him by allowing him to be such a huge influence in his life.
I guess the general consensus of this thread is that we should all just mete out justice any way we see fit, and to hell with the court system. And yet, so many of these same people rail against anarchism. Hmm.
If I was going to be nice about it, I'd say that most people are admitting that they are monkeys and would react accordingly if their family was threatened.
If anything, it makes an incredibly good argument for courts of law....
Quote from: LMNO on April 09, 2010, 02:08:32 PM
If I was going to be nice about it, I'd say that most people are admitting that they are monkeys and would react accordingly if their family was threatened.
If anything, it makes an incredibly good argument for courts of law....
Haha... true.
Quote from: Hoopla on April 09, 2010, 02:03:08 PM
I guess the general consensus of this thread is that we should all just mete out justice any way we see fit, and to hell with the court system. And yet, so many of these same people rail against anarchism. Hmm.
It's an interesting disconnect, I agree.
Part of what makes this case so salient and problematic was that Vargas was abused from age 11 until 28.
I don't know how common that may be, but it seems unlikely to be a typical case of abuse.
It's hard to believe, but at the same time entirely possible knowing how depraved human beings can be.
It seems like discrete acts of abuse tend to be more forgivable and that people are more likely to recover from a single incident or small number of incidents than a long term horrorshow like this one.
I mean how many children does a molester get to abuse and for how long before it deserves death?
It sounds like most would say 1, and the minority would say there is no amount.
The chronic nature and corroborated accounts of this case makes it almost impossible not to be in favor of vigilante justice.
Wait, what's it called when the kid is old enough to give consent? That's "just" coersion and rape, not child molestation, right?
Also, can we really call this guy a pedophile if he was interested in a 28-year-old guy?
Quote from: Faust on April 09, 2010, 11:30:28 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 09, 2010, 02:35:28 AM
Quote from: Faust on April 09, 2010, 02:08:13 AM
Quote from: Sigmatic on April 09, 2010, 02:02:09 AM
Also, our death row has a fair number of innocents, for all their careful justice.
That's why I had my doubts.
I'm completely against the death penalty but its easy for me to say that coming from a country that doesn't have/need it.
The reason I'd be against a first hand victim taking their own corrective measures on someone like this is that I don't think they as victims are getting the justice they deserve, if anything he is now both the victim of a child molester and a victim of his own suffering, allowing his pain to make him a murderer.
But thats less a moral issue and more one of legality.
No mater what the law of the land, rape is rape... but "murder" depends on what the society considers justified and unjustified.
Morality will always be more important then legality in my mind and I hate that there is such a distinction between the two.
I still feel the same, the victim let himself down by killing this guy, I also find it pretty disturbing that so many people here are calling for blood. Ugh...... I was sexually abused as a kid and it messed me up for a long long time, I got through all that. This guy Aaron Vargas has allowed this guy to influence his life even further which is depressing as hell, when he was a kid he lost some of his freedom to this guy, now he's lost even more to him by allowing him to be such a huge influence in his life.
I was abused as well, and though I've gotten over it I can see how someone might react this way... especially once they have a child of their own.
Quote from: Hoopla on April 09, 2010, 02:03:08 PM
I guess the general consensus of this thread is that we should all just mete out justice any way we see fit, and to hell with the court system. And yet, so many of these same people rail against anarchism. Hmm.
:lulz:
Quote from: LMNO on April 09, 2010, 02:08:32 PM
If I was going to be nice about it, I'd say that most people are admitting that they are monkeys and would react accordingly if their family was threatened.
If anything, it makes an incredibly good argument for courts of law....
Err, but hadn't the law already failed in this instance? Abuse had been reported and apparently ignored.
I haven't found a really good citation about the police ignoring the abuse. I don't get the impression that Vargas told a lot of people what was going on. His parents, for example, said they were totally unaware of it.
I've started a new, related discussion about the nature of punishment. (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=24785.0)
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 09, 2010, 03:31:57 PM
Err, but hadn't the law already failed in this instance? Abuse had been reported and apparently ignored.
Rat, it amuses me that you are acting in a manner in which you are
certain of the facts in this case.
Quote from: Hoopla on April 09, 2010, 02:03:08 PM
I guess the general consensus of this thread is that we should all just mete out justice any way we see fit, and to hell with the court system. And yet, so many of these same people rail against anarchism. Hmm.
I'm railing against anachronism, and just want the time travellers brought to justice before they start pentions all over space/time.
Quote from: LMNO on April 09, 2010, 03:56:34 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 09, 2010, 03:31:57 PM
Err, but hadn't the law already failed in this instance? Abuse had been reported and apparently ignored.
Rat, it amuses me that you are acting in a manner in which you are certain of the facts in this case.
Well, I un-eprimed it cause people bitch at me for it. Looking back, it does appear certian. Thanks for the tip LMNO.
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 09, 2010, 04:13:00 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 09, 2010, 03:56:34 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 09, 2010, 03:31:57 PM
Err, but hadn't the law already failed in this instance? Abuse had been reported and apparently ignored.
Rat, it amuses me that you are acting in a manner in which you are certain of the facts in this case.
Well, I un-eprimed it cause people bitch at me for it. Looking back, it does appear certian. Thanks for the tip LMNO, maybe.
FIXT
Quote from: Triple Zero on April 09, 2010, 04:17:19 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 09, 2010, 04:13:00 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 09, 2010, 03:56:34 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 09, 2010, 03:31:57 PM
Err, but hadn't the law already failed in this instance? Abuse had been reported and apparently ignored.
Rat, it amuses me that you are acting in a manner in which you are certain of the facts in this case.
Well, I un-eprimed it cause people bitch at me for it. Looking back, it does appear certian. Thanks for the tip LMNO, maybe.
FIXT
:argh!:
Quote from: Suu on April 08, 2010, 05:16:12 PM
If you're driven to murder someone, even for a just cause such as molestation, you need to be evaluated. The correct course of action is to inform authorities and have them take care of it.
Not a response I'd expect to see get much play on a Discordian board.
I love it when people are like, "But.. i thought Discordians were supposed to hate authority!" :lol:
something something something eristic delusion something
Quote from: Cramulus on April 09, 2010, 08:38:21 PM
I love it when people are like, "But.. i thought Discordians were supposed to hate authority!" :lol:
something something something eristic delusion something
Well sure, but as the go to response, for being molested for 17 years? That's pretty hard core law and order.
at the very least, I'm glad we have collectively defied your expectations :p
Quote from: Cramulus on April 09, 2010, 08:38:21 PM
something something something eristic delusion something
Something something COMPLETE.
or :?
While it's all well and good to keep in mind notions of self-restraint in the possibility of vigilantism, let's not forget that this guy murdered someone who raped him as a child. It's not a theoretical exposition on the nature of justice and accusation anymore when someone personally rapes you. People are pretty good at playing simcity with percentages of pedophilia and ladling out justice in fair increments when the situation calls for it and appearing to be a fair and balanced individuals in the process but I firmly believe in a DIY sensibility when someone goes over and beyond in this capacity to fuck you over; doubly so if you are a kid at the time.
I know I'm naturally against a state death penalty because the idea creeps me out, however I also don't mind personal justice in these circumstances and the courts appraisal of the situation as special, as in not the usual motive for murder, suggests that society at large respects this man's reasons for murder while simultaneously being cautious towards appearing too accepting of individuals taking matters into their own hands this way, 17 other accusers notwithstanding.
Personally I view pedophilia as a developmental psychological illness and our society could do a better job with dealing with these people and giving them the proper treatment and monitored professional help they require. The unfortunate social reality and repercussion of outing yourself as a pedophile though keeps almost all pedophiles anally guarded against seeking help which only serves to enforce the secluded nature of what they do or want to do. Tragedies like this could have been avoided if more positive institutions were in place to help these people before they go out and rape kids. It's easy to judge pedophiles, fuck it: I know I do, however it's important to remember that no one chooses who they are attracted to; which in itself obviously does not make it okay and if you looked into the matter you'd see that a large number of pedophiles themselves don't think it's okay either.
On a side note, I've always been fascinated with how morally corrupt people such as the mafia may view what they do as evil (semantics aside) but use a strong anti-child abuse stance as a weird validation for gun running or assassination. It's like "Yea, we kill people.. but we don't rape kids!"
Noob took the words right outta my mouth, or would have if I had felt like bothering to expound on my thoughts on the matter.
Right on, noob!
Do onto others as others do onto you, I guess?
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 09, 2010, 08:42:10 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 09, 2010, 08:38:21 PM
I love it when people are like, "But.. i thought Discordians were supposed to hate authority!" :lol:
something something something eristic delusion something
Well sure, but as the go to response, for being molested for 17 years? That's pretty hard core law and order.
personally, I would tend to think that someone who was subjected to Discordian thought patterns for any length of time would probably NOT have been abused/manipulated for 17 years.
Bullshit.
Everyone knows that 2/3 of all discordians were raped by every black man they ever encountered.
You know as well as I do that it's not rape if you enjoy it.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on April 10, 2010, 02:57:01 AM
Bullshit.
Everyone knows that 2/3 of all discordians were raped by every black man they ever encountered.
And 11/12ths of them deserved it, the bastards!
Quote from: LMNO on April 10, 2010, 02:39:50 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 09, 2010, 08:42:10 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 09, 2010, 08:38:21 PM
I love it when people are like, "But.. i thought Discordians were supposed to hate authority!" :lol:
something something something eristic delusion something
Well sure, but as the go to response, for being molested for 17 years? That's pretty hard core law and order.
personally, I would tend to think that someone who was subjected to Discordian thought patterns for any length of time would probably NOT have been abused/manipulated for 17 years.
If their response to being abused/manipulated was to go to the police and leave it at that, then yeah, they probably would be.
Now you're just being obtuse.
Quote from: LMNO on April 10, 2010, 03:29:03 AM
Now you're just being obtuse.
Perhaps a little. I was actually trying to point out that you made almost exactly the same generalization I did.
Well, as long as we're both toying with polemics.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on April 10, 2010, 02:57:01 AM
Bullshit.
Everyone knows that 2/3 of all discordians were raped by every black man they ever encountered.
i pee-laughed
Quote from: Cramulus on April 08, 2010, 07:54:09 PM
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/kiddyfiddler.jpg)
There was something I wanted to contribute, about the death of the molester in regards to the mental state of the molested. That happened a few pages back but appears to lack relevance at this point.
Instead I will just bump this pic, simply 'cause it made me spill my morning coffee over the new carpet and imo deserves further appreciation.~planeswalker
needed a good laugh
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 09, 2010, 08:24:29 PM
Quote from: Suu on April 08, 2010, 05:16:12 PM
If you're driven to murder someone, even for a just cause such as molestation, you need to be evaluated. The correct course of action is to inform authorities and have them take care of it.
Not a response I'd expect to see get much play on a Discordian board.
What is the correct "Discordian" response?
To do the Turkey Curse on the alleged molestor, of course
\
:argh!:
Quote from: Cain on April 10, 2010, 07:31:29 PM
To do the Turkey Curse on the alleged molestor, of course
\
:argh!:
I just kinda filled back up with hate. :crankey:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2010, 07:22:24 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 09, 2010, 08:24:29 PM
Quote from: Suu on April 08, 2010, 05:16:12 PM
If you're driven to murder someone, even for a just cause such as molestation, you need to be evaluated. The correct course of action is to inform authorities and have them take care of it.
Not a response I'd expect to see get much play on a Discordian board.
What is the correct "Discordian" response?
i would assume 'judge/jury/execute for yourself, schmuck'
speaking of which, didn't someone say you were sequestered away with jury duty atm?
Quote from: Iptuous on April 10, 2010, 08:16:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2010, 07:22:24 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 09, 2010, 08:24:29 PM
Quote from: Suu on April 08, 2010, 05:16:12 PM
If you're driven to murder someone, even for a just cause such as molestation, you need to be evaluated. The correct course of action is to inform authorities and have them take care of it.
Not a response I'd expect to see get much play on a Discordian board.
What is the correct "Discordian" response?
i would assume 'judge/jury/execute for yourself, schmuck'
speaking of which, didn't someone say you were sequestered away with jury duty atm?
On a jury, but not sequestered. Just really, really busy, because the court runs until 5PM. I'll be around on Monday, as there are no trials on Monday in Tucson.
:thanks:
IMO, the proper response would have been to tar and feather the man.
Quote from: Sparkley Pink Shit on April 10, 2010, 08:57:04 PM
IMO, the proper response would have been to tar and feather the man.
A fate, I feel the need to mention, which is much worse than being shot dead. The hot tar not only leaves severe burns, but is often fatal after a period of suffering.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2010, 07:22:24 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 09, 2010, 08:24:29 PM
Quote from: Suu on April 08, 2010, 05:16:12 PM
If you're driven to murder someone, even for a just cause such as molestation, you need to be evaluated. The correct course of action is to inform authorities and have them take care of it.
Not a response I'd expect to see get much play on a Discordian board.
What is the correct "Discordian" response?
Something not involving a reliance on the authorities to get things done. I'm certainly not one to say someone isn't Discordian because they feel that the government and authorities are perfectly capable of taking care of all the bad guys and keeping them safe. It's just not what I'd expect.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2010, 07:22:24 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 09, 2010, 08:24:29 PM
Quote from: Suu on April 08, 2010, 05:16:12 PM
If you're driven to murder someone, even for a just cause such as molestation, you need to be evaluated. The correct course of action is to inform authorities and have them take care of it.
Not a response I'd expect to see get much play on a Discordian board.
What is the correct "Discordian" response?
I'd say it's less of a question of a "correct" response and more a question of a probable, expected one. Of course, I can't know for sure, but I think that's all Babylon was trying to say.
There is
NO
correct "Discordian" response. Discordianism in principle is the lack of a codified set of ideologies or dogmas.
Quote from: CAPTAIN SLACK on April 10, 2010, 11:43:32 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2010, 07:22:24 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 09, 2010, 08:24:29 PM
Quote from: Suu on April 08, 2010, 05:16:12 PM
If you're driven to murder someone, even for a just cause such as molestation, you need to be evaluated. The correct course of action is to inform authorities and have them take care of it.
Not a response I'd expect to see get much play on a Discordian board.
What is the correct "Discordian" response?
I'd say it's less of a question of a "correct" response and more a question of a probable, expected one. Of course, I can't know for sure, but I think that's all Babylon was trying to say.
yep, that is what i was saying.
Quote from: LMNO on April 09, 2010, 02:53:36 PM
Wait, what's it called when the kid is old enough to give consent? That's "just" coersion and rape, not child molestation, right?
Also, can we really call this guy a pedophile if he was interested in a 28-year-old guy?
Yeah, I guess if he was only a part-time pedo & stuck with regular rape the rest of the time, he was probably alright.
Also, having sex with adults makes sex with kids not pedophilia anymore.
Plus, he did not write Alice in Wonderland.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 10, 2010, 09:32:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2010, 07:22:24 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 09, 2010, 08:24:29 PM
Quote from: Suu on April 08, 2010, 05:16:12 PM
If you're driven to murder someone, even for a just cause such as molestation, you need to be evaluated. The correct course of action is to inform authorities and have them take care of it.
Not a response I'd expect to see get much play on a Discordian board.
What is the correct "Discordian" response?
Something not involving a reliance on the authorities to get things done. I'm certainly not one to say someone isn't Discordian because they feel that the government and authorities are perfectly capable of taking care of all the bad guys and keeping them safe. It's just not what I'd expect.
I see. So the chaos of the Pentagon, for example, isn't real chaos. And the only solution to everything is your ratty little Ayn Rand-ish belief in the individual, alone, in the jungle.
Is that more what you were expecting?
Quote from: Sigmatic on April 18, 2010, 03:04:20 AM
There is
NO
correct "Discordian" response. Discordianism in principle is the lack of a codified set of ideologies or dogmas.
Nah, we have a few Dogmas, but they're all specifically worded to encourage rejection of codified sets of ideologies or dogmas.
(You may think this is pedantry, but there is a religious court case in Canada arguing over this exact thing. The first wording means "your group is not a religion", the second wording means "your group is a religion".)
Quote from: Telarus on April 18, 2010, 10:39:15 PM
Quote from: Sigmatic on April 18, 2010, 03:04:20 AM
There is
NO
correct "Discordian" response. Discordianism in principle is the lack of a codified set of ideologies or dogmas.
Nah, we have a few Dogmas, but they're all specifically worded to encourage rejection of codified sets of ideologies or dogmas.
(You may think this is pedantry, but there is a religious court case in Canada arguing over this exact thing. The first wording means "your group is not a religion", the second wording means "your group is a religion".)
And Discordianism is a religion.
Quote from: Template on April 18, 2010, 11:03:47 PM
Quote from: Telarus on April 18, 2010, 10:39:15 PM
Quote from: Sigmatic on April 18, 2010, 03:04:20 AM
There is
NO
correct "Discordian" response. Discordianism in principle is the lack of a codified set of ideologies or dogmas.
Nah, we have a few Dogmas, but they're all specifically worded to encourage rejection of codified sets of ideologies or dogmas.
(You may think this is pedantry, but there is a religious court case in Canada arguing over this exact thing. The first wording means "your group is not a religion", the second wording means "your group is a religion".)
And Discordianism is a religion.
No, it's a social club for misanthropes.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 18, 2010, 11:27:23 PM
Quote from: Template on April 18, 2010, 11:03:47 PM
Quote from: Telarus on April 18, 2010, 10:39:15 PM
Quote from: Sigmatic on April 18, 2010, 03:04:20 AM
There is
NO
correct "Discordian" response. Discordianism in principle is the lack of a codified set of ideologies or dogmas.
Nah, we have a few Dogmas, but they're all specifically worded to encourage rejection of codified sets of ideologies or dogmas.
(You may think this is pedantry, but there is a religious court case in Canada arguing over this exact thing. The first wording means "your group is not a religion", the second wording means "your group is a religion".)
And Discordianism is a religion.
No, it's a social club for misanthropes.
Oh, :oops:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 18, 2010, 11:27:23 PM
Quote from: Template on April 18, 2010, 11:03:47 PM
Quote from: Telarus on April 18, 2010, 10:39:15 PM
Quote from: Sigmatic on April 18, 2010, 03:04:20 AM
There is
NO
correct "Discordian" response. Discordianism in principle is the lack of a codified set of ideologies or dogmas.
Nah, we have a few Dogmas, but they're all specifically worded to encourage rejection of codified sets of ideologies or dogmas.
(You may think this is pedantry, but there is a religious court case in Canada arguing over this exact thing. The first wording means "your group is not a religion", the second wording means "your group is a religion".)
And Discordianism is a religion.
No, it's a social club for misanthropes.
This. This, delicious contradiction in terms.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 18, 2010, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 09, 2010, 02:53:36 PM
Wait, what's it called when the kid is old enough to give consent? That's "just" coersion and rape, not child molestation, right?
Also, can we really call this guy a pedophile if he was interested in a 28-year-old guy?
Yeah, I guess if he was only a part-time pedo & stuck with regular rape the rest of the time, he was probably alright.
Also, having sex with adults makes sex with kids not pedophilia anymore.
Of course, it's completely obvious that I wasn't attempting to exonerate the guy; and I suppose it goes without saying that I was trying to point out how much weirder this case is than your standard pedophile, once you start thinking about how long this went on for.
I mean, you're all smart enough to see that, right?
Oh.
:|
Quote from: LMNO on April 19, 2010, 01:52:49 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 18, 2010, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 09, 2010, 02:53:36 PM
Wait, what's it called when the kid is old enough to give consent? That's "just" coersion and rape, not child molestation, right?
Also, can we really call this guy a pedophile if he was interested in a 28-year-old guy?
Yeah, I guess if he was only a part-time pedo & stuck with regular rape the rest of the time, he was probably alright.
Also, having sex with adults makes sex with kids not pedophilia anymore.
Of course, it's completely obvious that I wasn't attempting to exonerate the guy; and I suppose it goes without saying that I was trying to point out how much weirder this case is than your standard pedophile, once you start thinking about how long this went on for.
I mean, you're all smart enough to see that, right?
Oh.
:|
Looks like you tried to remove the (tentative) label of moral condemnation from the guy, without maintaining a condemnation of what he's accused of.
Your earlier post really sounds a lot like, "Bill can't be gay--he has a wife and kids!" There's a little bit of fudging between there and here, but it's a close idea.
... hmmm ...
I think you accidentally used a phrase common in rhetorical questions. It gives an impression like you're somewhat confident in the answer. That's my guess.
Quote from: LMNO on April 19, 2010, 01:52:49 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 18, 2010, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 09, 2010, 02:53:36 PM
Wait, what's it called when the kid is old enough to give consent? That's "just" coersion and rape, not child molestation, right?
Also, can we really call this guy a pedophile if he was interested in a 28-year-old guy?
Yeah, I guess if he was only a part-time pedo & stuck with regular rape the rest of the time, he was probably alright.
Also, having sex with adults makes sex with kids not pedophilia anymore.
Of course, it's completely obvious that I wasn't attempting to exonerate the guy; and I suppose it goes without saying that I was trying to point out how much weirder this case is than your standard pedophile, once you start thinking about how long this went on for.
I mean, you're all smart enough to see that, right?
Oh.
:|
Fuck you, LMNO. Are you TRYING to be a fucking idiot asshole? And questioning MY intelligence because YOU asked a fucking retard question?
Molestation that goes on for years is pretty par for the course. Not that I expected you to research that. But the "is the guy really a pedo considering that he kept fucking the kid until he was an adult?" question really disappoints me.
A bit testy this week, aren't we?
Quote from: LMNO on April 20, 2010, 02:30:12 PM
A bit testy this week, aren't we?
She's already announced that she's rearin' for a fight...
:evil:
Its a power dynamic between abused and abuser that can lead to this sort of thing continuing into adulthood. One of my ex's was a victim of a guy when he was younger and it was so confusing to him cos he liked the attention and even thought he was gay after the abuse had stopped. Basically the abuse warped the way he saw himself and his sexuality beyond the actual abuse and I would not be surprised if it continued via blackmail and other abused/abuser dynamics.
Quote from: LMNO on April 19, 2010, 01:52:49 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 18, 2010, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 09, 2010, 02:53:36 PM
Wait, what's it called when the kid is old enough to give consent? That's "just" coersion and rape, not child molestation, right?
Also, can we really call this guy a pedophile if he was interested in a 28-year-old guy?
Yeah, I guess if he was only a part-time pedo & stuck with regular rape the rest of the time, he was probably alright.
Also, having sex with adults makes sex with kids not pedophilia anymore.
Of course, it's completely obvious that I wasn't attempting to exonerate the guy; and I suppose it goes without saying that I was trying to point out how much weirder this case is than your standard pedophile, once you start thinking about how long this went on for.
I mean, you're all smart enough to see that, right?
Oh.
:|
Every time I have looked up information on child molesters I have found that the majority are not pedophiles, as in they are perfectly capable of being aroused by adults. Children are easier victims than adults for someone predatory. The other weird statistic is that the majority of sexual abuse of male children is perpetrated by heterosexual men.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 20, 2010, 07:42:13 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 19, 2010, 01:52:49 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 18, 2010, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 09, 2010, 02:53:36 PM
Wait, what's it called when the kid is old enough to give consent? That's "just" coersion and rape, not child molestation, right?
Also, can we really call this guy a pedophile if he was interested in a 28-year-old guy?
Yeah, I guess if he was only a part-time pedo & stuck with regular rape the rest of the time, he was probably alright.
Also, having sex with adults makes sex with kids not pedophilia anymore.
Of course, it's completely obvious that I wasn't attempting to exonerate the guy; and I suppose it goes without saying that I was trying to point out how much weirder this case is than your standard pedophile, once you start thinking about how long this went on for.
I mean, you're all smart enough to see that, right?
Oh.
:|
Every time I have looked up information on child molesters I have found that the majority are not pedophiles, as in they are perfectly capable of being aroused by adults. Children are easier victims than adults for someone predatory. The other weird statistic is that the majority of sexual abuse of male children is perpetrated by heterosexual men.
1. They're still pedos. They can be other things, too.
2. Why would that be weird?
A pedophile is someone who has a sexual preference for children, not someone who is unable to become aroused by anything but children.
There are also just garden-variety sexual predators who are not necessarily pedophiles, but who don't draw the line at raping kids, and as you said, kids are easier victims.
I would say that someone who has molested at least a dozen young boys is showing a sexual preference for children, even if the abuse continued into adulthood.
also bear in mind that the psyche dictionary definition and the legal definition for pedophilia isn't the same...
A true Paedophile is only aroused by pre-pubescent children, regardless of their sex. Then you have your general predators, who prey on teenage girls, usually because they present easy targets. Neither category respond well to rehabilitation, it usually is only a matter of time until they re-offend.
The best course of action, is to take them to one side, explain the situation, that their heinous sexual behaviour is entirely unacceptable, (A fact that most of them will agree with) and then, with compassion, and diligence, and without the media circus that usually surrounds such cases, quickly and painlessly, put them to sleep. Not "Because they deserve to die" or as "Justice" to their victims, or any other Legalist platitudes, but simply because it needs to be done.
It needs to be done, in this way, because it is also unacceptable for someone else, with a moral agenda to 'visit justice' upon them, vigilante style. As someone already said in this thread, 1+1 does not make 0.
Cold blooded Vengeance (according to people who have carried it out) does not provide any kind of closure. And most Judiciary systems are concerned with punishment. Punishment is only morally validated, if the person being punished is able to learn the lesson of their transgression, and modify their subsequent behaviour accordingly. And sadly, this course of action does not work on Wrongcocks. Many of these people were carrying on a behaviour pattern that started when they were themselves abused, perhaps for years, and while this is no excuse for their own activities, it does indicate how deeply this pattern is ingrained, and the way abuse is transferred through the generations.
This is why it is necessary to put these abusers down, like a sick animal. Because really, that's what they are. If as a society, we choose to keep dangerously vicious dogs among us, we have nowhere to stand, morally, when those dogs
regularly maul children to death. Neither does it make any sense to blame he dogs.
And although it's not an easy place to put yourself, imagine if you were a paedophile, already suffering from abuse received as a child, unable to sublimate this damage to your psyche, you find yourself perpetrating the same crimes upon other innocent children. I know that I would not want to live a life like that.
I can see the point you're trying to make, but to me that's sort of a Moral Event Horizon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon) I just can't bring myself to cross.
I so love/hate TV Tropes.
Yeah. It's really a dangerous place. I knew exactly the term I wanted to link there, but even then I spent 20 minutes poking around.
Especially since I just pulled a Moral Event Horizon in one of my chat RP games. Lawl.
-Suu
Plays bad guys. REALLY bad guys.
Are you raping puppies again?