It's that time again, Roger. I took this position as part of the academic integrity committee because I thought it would be interesting, and I kept it because I wanted to make a difference.
But, OH, the monkeys that I have to deal with. Mind you, these are academics, scholars, graduate students. Otherwise known as the educated populous. And they are as much monkeys as the rest.
Take an ongoing incident, for example. We ruled previously on a case that this person, due to paying someone to take the admissions required language test for her, should be expelled and a statement be put on her transcript about violations of academic integrity. This was the ruling of the committee, and as per the written policy, plan and agreement of the university, our word was final. However, it is still not on her transcript. Why? Because the gibbering monkeys in administration are lollygagging on it, making excuses, saying it needs to be looked over again.
No. This is not what these fucking monkeys agreed to. And they are lowering our standards and by way of that MY standards. They are lowering my standards, the people who want this university to be a top twenty school.
Today, I am hearing several violations, probably to be a 5 hour affair starting at 2 pm and ending somewhere in the evening, a mixture of brazen monkeys without integrity and people who made honest mistakes, judged all the same. And it doesn't matter what I decided, because sooner or later my standards are going to be lowered. MY standards, goddammit Roger, are going to be lowered because the monkeys have no integrity.
You've done your part, Kai, your statement is on record. That's not a cop out, it's a statement of fact.
One of the reasons monkeys ARE monkeys is a lack of integrity, both ethical and intellectual. Get mad at the sun for rising, Kai, get mad at the tide for coming in.
And go deal with these other violations on their own merits. It's the upright thing to do.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 05, 2010, 03:03:57 PM
You've done your part, Kai, your statement is on record. That's not a cop out, it's a statement of fact.
One of the reasons monkeys ARE monkeys is a lack of integrity, both ethical and intellectual. Get mad at the sun for rising, Kai, get mad at the tide for coming in.
And go deal with these other violations on their own merits. It's the upright thing to do.
That statement on record isn't enough. Remember what you said, about being here to build a better human? Well, I want to raise my standards. This is having the opposite effect. What does a biped do?
Bring the administration before the Integrity Comittee?
People are weak, Kai. On paper they're fine saying they're all for rigorous standards, hard lines, integrity, and zero tolerance. It's a strong statement and makes the speaker appear strong. Then they meet each other, and get into a situation where they ahve to apply them. They don't HAVE to look strong, and see every reason under the not to be. At that point, the apes don't want to be strong anymore. The luster and the prestige has worn off, and there's only the hard, cold duty of carrying out sentence on something you can empathize with.
Should they? Depends.
You understand the situation, the stakes, and the outcomes, and you made the best recomendation you could. Administration is there to ADMINSTER what you've said, not second guess your decision or undermine your authority.
I'm looking somewhat 2.5 party to a similar situation right now. I wonder, is giving someone that great big goodbye / fuck off forever REALLY called for? Sometimes, with monkies broken or twisted enough it is. Now and then you need to amputate people, and do so with cold resolve. Put on the Inquisitor face, do the deed. I've always hated doing it. Doing anything like that from a position of power sucks.
Quote from: Kai on May 05, 2010, 03:16:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 05, 2010, 03:03:57 PM
You've done your part, Kai, your statement is on record. That's not a cop out, it's a statement of fact.
One of the reasons monkeys ARE monkeys is a lack of integrity, both ethical and intellectual. Get mad at the sun for rising, Kai, get mad at the tide for coming in.
And go deal with these other violations on their own merits. It's the upright thing to do.
That statement on record isn't enough. Remember what you said, about being here to build a better human? Well, I want to raise my standards. This is having the opposite effect. What does a biped do?
Go over their heads, if you feel it's important enough. Risky move, though.
Quote from: Kai on May 05, 2010, 03:16:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 05, 2010, 03:03:57 PM
You've done your part, Kai, your statement is on record. That's not a cop out, it's a statement of fact.
One of the reasons monkeys ARE monkeys is a lack of integrity, both ethical and intellectual. Get mad at the sun for rising, Kai, get mad at the tide for coming in.
And go deal with these other violations on their own merits. It's the upright thing to do.
That statement on record isn't enough. Remember what you said, about being here to build a better human? Well, I want to raise my standards. This is having the opposite effect. What does a biped do?
A biped does the only thing a biped can do - it concentrates on improving on itself. Improving the creatures who surround it is a nice, shiny, idealistic fantasy but it aint even verging on practical. Lead by example if you absolutely have to but even leadership is merely playing 1st guppy in a shoal of retard-fish.
P3nt, I'm not sure why, but that comment, to me, sounds dickish, defeatist, nihilistic, and insulting.
I may feel differently tomorrow, but you've kind of nominated yourself for the president of the "why bother" contingent.
My gf recently followed a course on Integrity (study on the job). Basically the idea I get of "integrity" (the way it is taught) corresponds pretty much to Kantian ethics. And that is including all the flaws in Kant's ethics. A good employer, however, will make allowances and exceptions for these flaws, which helps a little.
An example, you hear your collegue called in sick with high fever. Your hours happen to finish early and you happen to see this collegue in town, shopping. S/he notices you see him/her and looks like s/he feels guilty.
What do you do?
Loads of questions here. First. the manager shoudl have said he's sick, not "high fever". What if it was HIV or ME and they didn't want to tell it? My first hunch would be to confront the collegue. But integrity-wise, in a big corporation (or government institution) you're not supposed to be the one to get to make the judgement-call to let them off the hook. Snitch on the collegue to the manager?
Of course, if I were to view this dilemma in the light of my personal ethics, it would be different. It would also be my own problem.
But the assignment here was to of course decide it in light of this integrity course. What do they want to hear?
I assume they also don't want a culture of snithcing. Though you can also submit it to some integrity-comittee, anonymously. But in my personal ethics that's also wrong (unless it places you in personal danger).
Well it was a tough one. She ended up writing some random blah of course, but we got quite an interesting discussion out of it.
But it's true; you can't force others to be better people. I tell my kids that all the time; the only person you really have control over is yourself.
000, was there a possibility of speaking with the person who called in sick? That could have cleared things up, as far as context is concerned.
Quote from: LMNO on May 05, 2010, 07:26:34 PM
000, was there a possibility of speaking with the person who called in sick? That could have cleared things up, as far as context is concerned.
Yeah that's what I said, I would confront the collegue.
Also some parts in the material on the integrity course seemed to suggest a possibility for this course of action.
Just that, it doesn't solve the problem. What if they had a good reason, if I am getting this integrity stuff at her workplace right, it's not technically her place to make the judgement call.
Not that it's really a big issue, this was just a dilemma assignmetn question, and I know my gf is integer as fuck.
We did manage to slip the words "Kantian ethics" and "Categorical Imperative" into the report, though :lulz:
So, as Electric Six says, "The lines are drawn, the orders are in."
First hearing was was a case of "unfortunate biped caught in the middle of two monkeys." The monkeys said they cheated as a joke, haha. It was easy enough to prove their innocence through phone bills. The unfortunate biped, an upstanding human of impeccable moral sensibilities, was caught in the crossfire. He was of course acquitted. The monkeys will be apologizing publicly and orally as pennance, a very appropriate and educational punishment.
The second case (continuing tomorrow) was much harder. This was a case of "monkey who can't learn to be a biped." I've seen this person before, he stood before committee last year, remember? He actually has come TWICE before, which made this a third offense. And same defense, and same "I will not make this mistake again". Same crocodile tears. The verdict means he probably won't be back to this university.
There are standards. They must be enforced. For MY and my colleagues' benefit, if not the whole university.
My housemate has had a similar recurring problem in the form of a Masters student from another country who has been caught plagiarizing three times. The first time, she got a warning and had to re-write the paper. The second time, my housemate was all "WTF?" and spent days agonizing over whether a difference in cultural norms could have contributed to the student's apparent lack of understanding. By that point, my opinion was that if she was halfway through a Masters program in the US, she should be well aware of the expectations. In the end the student lost her grade for the paper, which quite possibly meant she also lost her financial aid. The third time, she was booted from the program.
I think that if she was not smart enough to understand that plagiarism was unacceptable in grad school, she didn't belong in grad school. I also think that she was completely aware that plagiarism was unacceptable in grad school, has been doing it regularly without getting caught, and was banking on not getting caught. People ho are unwilling or unable to do their own work also do not belong in grad school.
People deserve more than once chance when they fuck up. In my opinion, if a company provides a certain number of sick days to their employees, WHY they call in sick is not the employer's business. The last place I worked, they had both "sick days" (for illness/medical treatment) and "personal days" (for any reason the employee felt unable to come in). "Sick days" only had to be utilized, with medical proof, on the third consecutive day an employee called in, which meant that anyone could call in at any time with no excuse whatsoever, provided they weren't out more than two days. It helped keep morale high, and people didn't call in that often. Plus if you didn't use your days you got paid out for them at the end of the year.
Quote from: Kai on May 05, 2010, 02:22:29 PM
MY standards, goddammit Roger, are going to be lowered because the monkeys have no integrity.
Having integrity has never been a part of what being a Monkey is about.
If you lower your standards as a reaction to this fact, then it's your own integrity, as well as your standards, that will suffer.
Quote from: BadBeast on May 06, 2010, 03:37:28 PM
Having integrity has never been a part of what being a Monkey is about.
:cn: well it certainly seems to be part of Kai's reality, are you suggesting he's an alien or a caddisfly mutant or something . . .
Quote from: BadBeast on May 06, 2010, 03:37:28 PM
If you lower your standards as a reaction to this fact, then it's your own integrity, as well as your standards, that will suffer.
I have no worries
at all about Kai's personal integrity but I
do worry that having to deal with the shit kickers of Academe might make him explode from frustration or something.
MMIX: We are primates, not monkeys.
We're not necessarily smarter than the monkeys.
We're just better. Why? Because we have Eris.
It's really that simple.
This whole monkey thing seems to be turning into a bit of a religion.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 06, 2010, 04:59:22 PM
This whole monkey thing seems to be turning into a bit of a religion.
Maybe. Looking at the term a little differently now. We're not monkeys, and that as an excuse is not valid.
We're primates. Stuck on the Planet of the Apes.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 06, 2010, 04:59:22 PM
This whole monkey thing seems to be turning into a bit of a religion.
I would probably say that it's an idea that has gained more prominence than it may deserve; with time, it will most likely re-blend into our perception of reality in a more sensible way.
Quote from: MMIX on May 06, 2010, 04:51:41 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on May 06, 2010, 03:37:28 PM
Having integrity has never been a part of what being a Monkey is about.
:cn: well it certainly seems to be part of Kai's reality, are you suggesting he's an alien or a caddisfly mutant or something . . .
Quote from: BadBeast on May 06, 2010, 03:37:28 PM
If you lower your standards as a reaction to this fact, then it's your own integrity, as well as your standards, that will suffer.
I have no worries at all about Kai's personal integrity but I do worry that having to deal with the shit kickers of Academe might make him explode from frustration or something.
And just for the record, I'm not suggesting for a moment he's an alien or a caddisfly mutant or anything . . . If that was the impression I gave, then things are looking a lot worserer for me than I thought!
If the bar of their standards, is lower than Kai's integrity, then they need to kick higher, Kai doesn't have to lower his standards. They want to be a Top rated educational facility, and this is difficult to achieve, if people are expelled for what is clearly cheating. This calls into question not only the standards of the school in question, but the standards of whoever compiles the list of who the best schools are.
To sacrifice integrity for standards, means that they both end up lower. A fact that I'm sure Kai realises. The most important thing, after all, is ones own integrity.
All you can do, is what you can do. No point in trying to change what you can't change, ie Other peoples integrity levels.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2010, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 06, 2010, 04:59:22 PM
This whole monkey thing seems to be turning into a bit of a religion.
Maybe. Looking at the term a little differently now. We're not monkeys, and that as an excuse is not valid.
We're primates. Stuck on the Planet of the Apes.
I like the idea
behind it; that of acknowledging that we are animals, we are primates, and we will tend to act in normal, irrational, primate ways if we aren't conscious of our own primate natures. Not that all primate ways are unproductive; they've gotten us this far. Some primate traits include friendship, love, loyalty to individuals and tribes, and hoarding against lean times; these are not bad things unless we become instinctively entrenched in them to the point where it becomes detrimental to ourselves and the world around us. We must not also forget that part of our primate nature is our ability to reason and to use forethought.
But when we start saying "THEY are monkeys and WE are primates" or dismissing the whole of human behavior as "being monkeys", and worst of all, when we start to capitalize "Monkey" as if that one word sums up everything we're trying to say, it's just become a joke we're not thinking too hard about, and that's the exact opposite of the original idea. It's exactly like overusing the word "cabbage" or "greyface".
I think we need to back away from using "monkey" as shorthand for a while, and learn to use our words again.
Quote from: BadBeast on May 06, 2010, 05:14:44 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 06, 2010, 04:51:41 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on May 06, 2010, 03:37:28 PM
Having integrity has never been a part of what being a Monkey is about.
:cn: well it certainly seems to be part of Kai's reality, are you suggesting he's an alien or a caddisfly mutant or something . . .
Quote from: BadBeast on May 06, 2010, 03:37:28 PM
If you lower your standards as a reaction to this fact, then it's your own integrity, as well as your standards, that will suffer.
I have no worries at all about Kai's personal integrity but I do worry that having to deal with the shit kickers of Academe might make him explode from frustration or something.
And just for the record, I'm not suggesting for a moment he's an alien or a caddisfly mutant or anything . . . If that was the impression I gave, then things are looking a lot worserer for me than I thought!
If the bar of their standards, is lower than Kai's integrity, then they need to kick higher, Kai doesn't have to lower his standards. They want to be a Top rated educational facility, and this is difficult to achieve, if people are expelled for what is clearly cheating. This calls into question not only the standards of the school in question, but the standards of whoever compiles the list of who the best schools are.
To sacrifice integrity for standards, means that they both end up lower. A fact that I'm sure Kai realises. The most important thing, after all, is ones own integrity.
All you can do, is what you can do. No point in trying to change what you can't change, ie Other peoples integrity levels.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I worked as an academic for 6 years and, in the end, faced with the sort of disingenuous shit that Kai is dealing with, I walked out [at the end of the semester and after fulfilling all my responsibilities to my students] and didn't look back - I didn't even claim for my last half semester's salary - I just walked away, a nice, clean, break.
@Dok Yes
@Nigel YES
@LMNO Fucking YES!!!
& Dok, the bee in my bonnet about memes is about just this problem - it seems to me that increasingly, to misquote RWHN, a meme is simply where you stopped thinking . . .
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 06, 2010, 05:22:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 06, 2010, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 06, 2010, 04:59:22 PM
This whole monkey thing seems to be turning into a bit of a religion.
Maybe. Looking at the term a little differently now. We're not monkeys, and that as an excuse is not valid.
We're primates. Stuck on the Planet of the Apes.
I like the idea behind it; that of acknowledging that we are animals, we are primates, and we will tend to act in normal, irrational, primate ways if we aren't conscious of our own primate natures. Not that all primate ways are unproductive; they've gotten us this far. Some primate traits include friendship, love, loyalty to individuals and tribes, and hoarding against lean times; these are not bad things unless we become instinctively entrenched in them to the point where it becomes detrimental to ourselves and the world around us. We must not also forget that part of our primate nature is our ability to reason and to use forethought.
But when we start saying "THEY are monkeys and WE are primates" or dismissing the whole of human behavior as "being monkeys", and worst of all, when we start to capitalize "Monkey" as if that one word sums up everything we're trying to say, it's just become a joke we're not thinking too hard about, and that's the exact opposite of the original idea. It's exactly like overusing the word "cabbage" or "greyface".
I think we need to back away from using "monkey" as shorthand for a while, and learn to use our words again.
Hoarding against lean times is not very common for primates, monkeys, or humans in a hunter gatherer society.
Not trying to be pedantic, I think you made a really good point, just that that sort of greed behavior seems like it comes from somewhere else.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 06, 2010, 07:52:52 PM
Hoarding against lean times is not very common for primates, monkeys, or humans in a hunter gatherer society.
Not trying to be pedantic, I think you made a really good point, just that that sort of greed behavior seems like it comes from somewhere else.
Really?
Quote from: Hoopla on May 06, 2010, 08:09:33 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 06, 2010, 07:52:52 PM
Hoarding against lean times is not very common for primates, monkeys, or humans in a hunter gatherer society.
Not trying to be pedantic, I think you made a really good point, just that that sort of greed behavior seems like it comes from somewhere else.
Really?
no not really - just one example - squirrels store nuts - and while food storage [calling it hoarding drags in a whole pile of irrelevant baggage like the greed thing] is not practiced by simple hunter gathering societies it is very common in Complex Forager Societies. So just let Nigel's post stand as it is - a damn fine point.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 06, 2010, 07:52:52 PM
Hoarding against lean times is not very common for primates, monkeys, or humans in a hunter gatherer society.
Not trying to be pedantic, I think you made a really good point, just that that sort of greed behavior seems like it comes from somewhere else.
Hoarding against lean times, like forethought, is not very common in other types of primates, but it is VERY common in our specific type of primate, including hunter-gatherer societies, who will store baskets full of surplus dried fish, game, berries, etc.
And where "else" would that greed behavior come from, exactly? Space aliens?
For simplicity's sake, I am not talking about stockpiling, but very basic hoarding beyond what you need for your immediate use. If you have enough dried fruit to get you through the winter, you have a hoard.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/hoard
Main Entry: 1hoard
Pronunciation: \ˈhȯrd\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English hord, from Old English; akin to Gothic huzd treasure, Old English hȳdan to hide
Date: before 12th century
: a supply or fund stored up and often hidden away
Quote from: MMIX on May 06, 2010, 08:45:35 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on May 06, 2010, 08:09:33 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 06, 2010, 07:52:52 PM
Hoarding against lean times is not very common for primates, monkeys, or humans in a hunter gatherer society.
Not trying to be pedantic, I think you made a really good point, just that that sort of greed behavior seems like it comes from somewhere else.
Really?
no not really - just one example - squirrels store nuts - and while food storage [calling it hoarding drags in a whole pile of irrelevant baggage like the greed thing] is not practiced by simple hunter gathering societies it is very common in Complex Forager Societies. So just let Nigel's post stand as it is - a damn fine point.
Squirrels aren't monkeys, or primates. Neither are ants (another animal that stockpiles) primates mostly don't, aside from human beings. So it's human behavior, rather distinct from monkey behavior.
It's not that it isn't instinctive, just that we can't blame our furry cousins when that particular instinct makes us act fucked up.
INTEGRITY you fuckers - do you stockpile it???
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 06, 2010, 10:20:52 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 06, 2010, 08:45:35 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on May 06, 2010, 08:09:33 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 06, 2010, 07:52:52 PM
Hoarding against lean times is not very common for primates, monkeys, or humans in a hunter gatherer society.
Not trying to be pedantic, I think you made a really good point, just that that sort of greed behavior seems like it comes from somewhere else.
Really?
no not really - just one example - squirrels store nuts - and while food storage [calling it hoarding drags in a whole pile of irrelevant baggage like the greed thing] is not practiced by simple hunter gathering societies it is very common in Complex Forager Societies. So just let Nigel's post stand as it is - a damn fine point.
Squirrels aren't monkeys, or primates. Neither are ants (another animal that stockpiles) primates mostly don't, aside from human beings. So it's human behavior, rather distinct from monkey behavior.
It's not that it isn't instinctive, just that we can't blame our furry cousins when that particular instinct makes us act fucked up.
What the hell are you talking about? I was talking about
our primate behavior; ie. basic drives that we,
this kind of primate, will default to, which can run unchecked and cause damage if we don't make choices to consciously manage them. It has nothing to do with other kinds of primates, and if you think it does you are missing the point entirely.
Also, http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=24818.0
Quote from: MMIX on May 06, 2010, 10:25:22 PM
INTEGRITY you fuckers - do you stockpile it???
Can't stockpile that, you either have it or you don't.
Quote from: BadBeast on May 07, 2010, 12:59:31 AM
Quote from: MMIX on May 06, 2010, 10:25:22 PM
INTEGRITY you fuckers - do you stockpile it???
Can't stockpile that, you either have it or you don't.
. . . drags rhetorical question out back and shoots it . . .
Today was a network of relationships more interwoven than the cast of Rent that needed a flowchart to map out the "who sent who what" and "who stole who from what".
In the end, they got wake up calls suited to their offenses. And I didn't feel bad.
Quote from: Kai on May 07, 2010, 03:41:24 AM
Today was a network of relationships more interwoven than the cast of Rent that needed a flowchart to map out the "who sent who what" and "who stole who from what".
In the end, they got wake up calls suited to their offenses. And I didn't feel bad.
You sound satisfied - that's good. Are you finished for this session now?