I was out the other night, trying new things, making new friends, eventually getting laid. Woot.
But there was this incident that took place in the bathroom at the karaoke bar that troubles me. It's something that has happened consistently through my life, and coupled with my desire to be less complacent, it has left me perplexed.
I was standing at the urinal, conducting business as usual. Two gym-rat meatheads walk in.
One goes to the urinal next to me. The other stands in the corner waiting.
The first one says "Hey dude, don't worry, this guy is almost done."
The second says "Yeah, but would anybody mind if I pissed on him?"
Now...this is just the sort of male dick shaking that I've tried to avoid my whole life. And I've been at the receiving end for as long as I can remember. Despite never having been in a fight, my first desire is to shove my fist into his throat for talking to me like that. Or, at the very least, to ask him what the fuck his problem is and why does he have to be such a cock.
But, as per usual, I act like nothing was said, wash my hands and go about my business. I'm at the point now where something like that doesn't leave me anxiety-ridden for weeks, questioning my worth as a human being.
But what the fuck is the APPROPRIATE response to something like that? How the hell would YOU react to that?
I'm thinking about buying a taser/pepper spray all in one thingy.
My reaction would be to ignore it, and wait for the guy to start pissing, while you wash your hands.
Then turn around and stomp on the back of his knee. Face ----> Urinal.
Hm...so think tactically instead of reacting emotionally.
I can get behind that.
Dok has the right idea ... I think if that happened to me I'd try turn it into a joke ...
I'm not sure how to react to something like that, I'd probably say Only if I get to Pee on you.
Quote from: Alty on May 10, 2010, 12:49:43 AM
Hm...so think tactically instead of reacting emotionally.
I can get behind that.
Obviously. That way, HE'S the one collecting his teeth from the urinal, not you.
As someone whose ass could get (though never has been) beaten by a couple of meatheads, I think a good reply is a simple, direct "I would fuckin' mind."
Appropriate response: Wait until he starts pissing, and tell him "That'd be pretty kinky."
Quote from: E. A. Waterhaus II on May 10, 2010, 01:22:31 AM
Appropriate response: Wait until he starts pissing, and tell him "That'd be pretty kinky."
:lol: That could backfire horribly.
I'm of the nonviolent but nonchalant school of thought: just turn around and piss all over him
Quote from: Brotep on May 10, 2010, 05:12:41 AM
Quote from: E. A. Waterhaus II on May 10, 2010, 01:22:31 AM
Appropriate response: Wait until he starts pissing, and tell him "That'd be pretty kinky."
:lol: That could backfire horribly.
I'm of the nonviolent but nonchalant school of thought: just turn around and piss all over him
That would get your ass kicked.
just walk out of the toilet and wait untill they come out.
then scream "They tried to rape me!"
I would simply invite him to go ahead and try.
But I'm the kind of asshat that would rather get a beating than put up with shit.
Quote from: NotPubli on May 10, 2010, 12:53:16 AM
Dok has the right idea ... I think if that happened to me I'd try turn it into a joke ...
I'm not sure how to react to something like that, I'd probably say Only if I get to Pee on you.
If you don't want to get violent about it, I think this is the most proper response that would leave you dignity (for not just letting it pass), yet is not very likely to get you beat up, unless they happen to be all amped up on coke or something. So if possible check the look in their eyes because remember you are the one with your pants down at that moment.
Enki's suggestion is likely to backfire, in the sense that the guy just might turn around and indeed pee all over you. Especially likely if they're somewhat drunk on alcohol.
If you don't mind getting violent, Dok's suggestion is the most tactical. But it really depends on the environment. I would never do this. It would be purposefully escalating a verbal attack into something physical, which goes against my own principles and those of everyone I know IRL [same with the punch-in-the-face solution to the arrogant D&D PC in another thread]. Plus, you'd have to leave the bar after that, right? I mean yeah, you'd be able to get out of the bathroom in the confusion that results, dissolve in the crowd if there is one, but they know your face and you'd have two assholes that you have to keep an eye on for the rest of the evening. Who knows next time you go into the bathroom they come after you and return the favour? After all, it was only the element of surprise that let you get away with it the first time, given that they are gymrat meatheads and Alty is not (unless he is, I dunno).
Walk away. The answer is walk away unless they touch you. And considering that they're meatheads, they probably won't do anything except for say shit anyway.
You're not a pussy if you do this.
You're not liable for anything.
Quote from: Suu on May 10, 2010, 01:55:29 PM
Walk away. The answer is walk after you stomp on their knees completely destroying every tendon and ligament. They will remember this night every step they take for the rest of their lives.
Hawk
doesn't believe in non-violence.
I would say your reaction to this depends seriously on how many friends you are with and what their reaction would be.
Now me, I roll with a pretty ghetto assed group. If I came out of the bathroom and told them something like that had been said to me, they would be all up ready to cut somebody. They have my back and I know it and that can tend to allow me to be a bit bitchier than I would be if I were alone or with other friends who would run screaming and crying to the nearest starbucks for a latte.
Walking away is definately the safest route. Too bad you don't know what they were driving. :wink:
Quote from: Hawk on May 10, 2010, 01:59:44 PM
Quote from: Suu on May 10, 2010, 01:55:29 PM
Walk away. The answer is walk after you stomp on their knees completely destroying every tendon and ligament. They will remember this night every step they take for the rest of their lives.
Hawk
doesn't believe in non-violence.
I don't believe in assault charges. However, like I said, the minute they land their hand on you, it's fair game to twist their neck off.
Realize that they didn't mean anything personal by it, it was just typical territorial dick waving. These behaviors become a lot more pronounced when you're drunk. Your reaction is natural, you were responding to a territorial threat. (piss is the most ancient territorial marker)
He didn't actually piss on you though, it was just some barking. By not reacting to it, I think you actually won the conflict. But I can see why you're frustrated - you perceived the barking as a challenge, and didn't push back, so it kind of feels like you chickened out, right? Well you didn't, you kept pissing there until YOU were done, then you left. Everything happened on your terms. Meaning it was your territory all along.
"Hey! You're pissing where I wanted to piss! That's mah pee spot!"
\
(http://library.creativecow.net/articles/cowdog/its_all_your_fault/angry_dog.jpg)
Thing is Cram, one day they are going to run into a really crazy motherfucker. There are plenty out there.
I'm just sayin' that if you respond to every symbolic threat as if its an actual threat, you're going to get in a lot of fights over absolutely nothing.
Hawk, you're talking about destroying somebody's knees and causing life-long damage in response to the suggestion that somebody might get some salty yellow fluid on your clothing. I hope that this is just talk, and you don't actually go around putting people in the hospital for looking at you cockeyed.
Quote from: Cramulus on May 10, 2010, 03:33:52 PM
I'm just sayin' that if you respond to every symbolic threat as if its an actual threat, you're going to get in a lot of fights over absolutely nothing.
Hawk, you're talking about destroying somebody's knees and causing life-long damage in response to the suggestion that somebody might get some salty yellow fluid on your clothing. I hope that this is just talk, and you don't actually go around putting people in the hospital for looking at you cockeyed.
Uhhhh......Cram seriously let me just say it's far better to leave some people alone. I would have given them a chance to back off. However if they didn't...........
i think Cram's analysis is spot on.
I would probably have simply taken my time....
shake a little too long....
if they say anything else, engage in quiet conversation with my penis, or something just to see how they react...
passive aggressive stuff always has worked well for me.
i ain't ever been punched, and i don't think less of myself for it.
I never look for trouble. I was just raised to not walk away from it.
if all it takes is walking, then why not?
Quote from: Iptuous on May 10, 2010, 04:41:49 PM
if all it takes is walking, then why not?
I guess I grew up in a different time and in a different place. Hardly anyone ever walked away. Oddly there was as a result a lot of thought put into starting anything because you knew you would get called on it. It worked for us and it still does for me.
Quote from: Cramulus on May 10, 2010, 03:33:52 PM
I'm just sayin' that if you respond to every symbolic threat as if its an actual threat, you're going to get in a lot of fights over absolutely nothing.
Hawk, you're talking about destroying somebody's knees and causing life-long damage in response to the suggestion that somebody might get some salty yellow fluid on your clothing. I hope that this is just talk, and you don't actually go around putting people in the hospital for looking at you cockeyed.
People who walk around trying to physically humiliate people for no apparent reason need to get jerked up short.
While I wouldn't go as far as destroying their knees, I wouldn't see any problem with forcing them to kneel at the altar.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2010, 04:46:03 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 10, 2010, 03:33:52 PM
I'm just sayin' that if you respond to every symbolic threat as if its an actual threat, you're going to get in a lot of fights over absolutely nothing.
Hawk, you're talking about destroying somebody's knees and causing life-long damage in response to the suggestion that somebody might get some salty yellow fluid on your clothing. I hope that this is just talk, and you don't actually go around putting people in the hospital for looking at you cockeyed.
People who walk around trying to physically humiliate people for no apparent reason need to get jerked up short.
While I wouldn't go as far as destroying their knees, I wouldn't see any problem with forcing them to kneel at the altar.
My knee theory is self preservation. If the bastard can't get up he can't hurt me.
Quote from: Hawk on May 10, 2010, 01:59:44 PM
Quote from: Suu on May 10, 2010, 01:55:29 PM
Walk away. The answer is walk after you stomp on their knees completely destroying every tendon and ligament. They will remember this night every step they take for the rest of their lives.
Hawk
doesn't believe in non-violence.
There's also a thing called a level of proportion. Drunken jackasses should get knocked down a peg, but permanently crippling someone over what's basically some ook ook is taking things beyond a peg and into psychopathy.
Not to mention a monster lawsuit they ARE going to win, plus probably 2-3 in the pen.
Quote from: Hawk on May 10, 2010, 04:47:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2010, 04:46:03 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 10, 2010, 03:33:52 PM
I'm just sayin' that if you respond to every symbolic threat as if its an actual threat, you're going to get in a lot of fights over absolutely nothing.
Hawk, you're talking about destroying somebody's knees and causing life-long damage in response to the suggestion that somebody might get some salty yellow fluid on your clothing. I hope that this is just talk, and you don't actually go around putting people in the hospital for looking at you cockeyed.
People who walk around trying to physically humiliate people for no apparent reason need to get jerked up short.
While I wouldn't go as far as destroying their knees, I wouldn't see any problem with forcing them to kneel at the altar.
My knee theory is self preservation. If the bastard can't get up he can't hurt me.
Dropping their chin on the urinal has the same effect and doesn't render them permanently crippled.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2010, 04:49:12 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 10, 2010, 04:47:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2010, 04:46:03 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 10, 2010, 03:33:52 PM
I'm just sayin' that if you respond to every symbolic threat as if its an actual threat, you're going to get in a lot of fights over absolutely nothing.
Hawk, you're talking about destroying somebody's knees and causing life-long damage in response to the suggestion that somebody might get some salty yellow fluid on your clothing. I hope that this is just talk, and you don't actually go around putting people in the hospital for looking at you cockeyed.
People who walk around trying to physically humiliate people for no apparent reason need to get jerked up short.
While I wouldn't go as far as destroying their knees, I wouldn't see any problem with forcing them to kneel at the altar.
My knee theory is self preservation. If the bastard can't get up he can't hurt me.
Dropping their chin on the urinal has the same effect and doesn't render them permanently crippled.
Yes but I openly admit I am crazy.
With understanding comes responsibility, and insanity is not gonna save your ass from getting raped in prison.
Also, I'm smelling a load of bluster, if you know what I mean.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 10, 2010, 04:54:34 PM
With understanding comes responsibility, and insanity is not gonna save your ass from getting raped in prison.
Also, I'm smelling a load of bluster, if you know what I mean.
Not so much. One of my friends won a national kickboxing championship a few years back. Sitting at the bar one night he asked me what I would do if he came after me. Physically I would stand no chance so I told him I would start shooting at 15 feet and stop when the gun was empty. I think I really did grow up far differently than a lot of you.
from the Punishment thread...
Quote from: Cramulus on April 09, 2010, 03:34:36 PM
...I just find it a little weird that behaviors we would normally find reprehensible are totally okay as long as somebody deserves it. Nietzsche suggests this is 'cause deep down, we're hunters, and we don't have an outlet for this violence. We want to be fucking tearing people up, but we have to sublimate these urges in order to participate in society. And Punishment [and consequently, justice] is this gap in the civilized world into which we can channel our animal rage.
I was just trolling this facebook group called "Why experiment on animals when we have plenty of pedophiles?" - basically echoes of the same thing. People have this misanthropic violence coiled up inside them and are waiting for the moment that society gives them the green light to spring it on somebody. Once somebody has done something which merits punishment, the sentence can be carried out without any regard to the culprit's free will, autonomy, accountability, etc. The consequences of this punishment are swept under the rug of
justice.
If somebody fucks with you, fuck with them back, I'm all for that.
but some drunks talking shit in a bathroom? Some drunks which didn't have the balls to actually
do anything? who cares? you can't let shit like that bring you down or you'll be getting in fights 10 times a week.
I rarely ever get in a fight. The key is to allow them a chance to repent and go away.
I stay out of the meathead bars; they're loud, and the patrons have little to say worth hearing. If I'm going to pay bar prices, I prefer a place for a quiet drink.
Quote from: Richter on May 10, 2010, 05:06:58 PM
I stay out of the meathead bars; they're loud, and the patrons have little to say worth hearing. If I'm going to pay bar prices, I prefer a place for a quiet drink.
This.
Unless there's a band, or I get to play "bar tag".
Quote from: Hawk on May 10, 2010, 04:58:41 PM
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 10, 2010, 04:54:34 PM
With understanding comes responsibility, and insanity is not gonna save your ass from getting raped in prison.
Also, I'm smelling a load of bluster, if you know what I mean.
Not so much. One of my friends won a national kickboxing championship a few years back. Sitting at the bar one night he asked me what I would do if he came after me. Physically I would stand no chance so I told him I would start shooting at 15 feet and stop when the gun was empty. I think I really did grow up far differently than a lot of you.
Again, more "what I would do if". Bluster.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 10, 2010, 05:09:06 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 10, 2010, 04:58:41 PM
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 10, 2010, 04:54:34 PM
With understanding comes responsibility, and insanity is not gonna save your ass from getting raped in prison.
Also, I'm smelling a load of bluster, if you know what I mean.
Not so much. One of my friends won a national kickboxing championship a few years back. Sitting at the bar one night he asked me what I would do if he came after me. Physically I would stand no chance so I told him I would start shooting at 15 feet and stop when the gun was empty. I think I really did grow up far differently than a lot of you.
Again, more "what I would do if". Bluster.
ok
Fuck them chuckle-heads. It's not worth the energy. I agree with Cram on this one, for the most part. However, if the comments persisted, or if the situation had escalated to the physical realm, guys like that usually have a glass jaw. Tons of time in the gym might make you big, but it doesn't make you impervious to pain. Guys like that are usually sissies, they go get buff with the hopes that their physical appearance will make people think they're "tough," when in reality, they couldn't take actually getting hit. I deal with this type of (what I like to call) Mosh-Pit Alpha-Male all the time. They all go down easier than the scrawny punk-rawk kids, and harder to boot. Plus, making an example out of one of them keeps the others, at least, at arms length.
Quote from: Richter on May 10, 2010, 05:06:58 PM
I stay out of the meathead bars; they're loud, and the patrons have little to say worth hearing. If I'm going to pay bar prices, I prefer a place for a quiet drink.
I would rather go to a country bar. I don't go to bars to drink I go to socialize. Drinking is just it's companion.
Quote from: Hawk on May 10, 2010, 05:35:31 PM
Quote from: Richter on May 10, 2010, 05:06:58 PM
I stay out of the meathead bars; they're loud, and the patrons have little to say worth hearing. If I'm going to pay bar prices, I prefer a place for a quiet drink.
I would rather go to a country bar. I don't go to bars to drink I go to socialize. Drinking is just it's companion.
I agree. Can't socialize when you have to scream to be heard.
The etiquette response is exactly what you did.
The ettiquette response is, unfortunately, not the gratifying one.
I have refused to go to most of the bars in this town because they're filled with assholes like that. I prefer a quiet drink and good conversation, but my date liked the place and...I'm really sick of avoiding people and places because I feel intimidated before stepping in the door. Safe, quiet, sterility has been the standard for me, and I'd like to get out of that comfort zone.
Now.
Tactics: While I imagine it would have been gratifying to shove the guys' face in a urinal, there's A) the guy next to him and B) his 3-4 friends I saw later to consider. I have no backup ever. And I would have had to leave quickly, possibly not being able to return ever again. This would have definitely upset my date, and there are few places to go in the first place.
Plus, I don't know that in any physical altercation, whether initially having the upper hand or not, how capable I would be.
And even if I succeeded, even if the other guy started it, courts can be tricky. And with custody hearings to consider, the last thing I need is an assault charge.
Escalation: I have a mouth, and it usually runs faster and further than I'd like before I can stop it. I think EoC's method would be the least amount said while salvaging the most of my dignity, however that might not be ALL I would say once I got started. In any case, responding to it at all would certainly increase the odds of violence ensuing. I think that's why I typically say nothing.
What is it though that makes me feel like the lesser monkey? What drives people to go out of their way to be such dicks in the first place? Where can I acquire vast quantities of napalm?
Quote from: Alty on May 10, 2010, 08:47:10 PM
Tactics: While I imagine it would have been gratifying to shove the guys' face in a urinal, there's A) the guy next to him and B) his 3-4 friends I saw later to consider.
Yeah, I was gonna mention that you better have a plan for his buddy.
if you have to get satisfaction out of the situation, when somebody runs their yap, then, for gawdsake, don't try to fight fair, or even straight-forward, for that matter!
keep an eye on them, and strike them safely later on your own terms. if you do it right, they don't even know what hit them unless you insist on letting them know.
fair fights are for suckers.
It's not really a matter of etiquette, it's a matter of saving face. The guy wanted to start a pissing contest. Probably the best response for someone like that is, "Sorry, I'm not gay or into golden showers" as you walked out of the bathroom, depriving him of a chance to retort and humiliating him in the eyes of his buddy. He could pursue you out and try to follow up, but at that point he just looks weak and anything he says will make him look weaker. You, on the other hand, have an open door to say things like "Sorry, no offense, I'm just not into that" and "Listen, I'm not the one who offered to pee on YOU" in front of the whole bar. He takes a swing, he gets thrown out, along with his friends, but I doubt he would even take it as far as following you out of the bathroom because pinheads like that are scared to death of looking gay.
Alty, yeah definitely don't open up if you're going to run your mouth. But always have a follow up to a predictable response. "I would fuckin' mind," (imperitive to drop the g and a few other nuances) opens up immediately to "well what would you do about it?" That opens you wide up to a humiliation comment like Nigel was getting at "I'd probably feel bad you were wasting the golden shower on me when your buddy here so clearly wants it again." But that's getting more complicated and doesn't really matter.
What DOES matter is that I believe in another thread you mentioned you got laid that night? In that case, I think you won the evening. While some gorilla fucks were too busy focused on urinating, you were securing sex! Not only is that more awesome just because, it's also a victory on the instinct level because, hey, hypothetically it would be your seed getting passed on.
Quote from: EoC on May 10, 2010, 09:07:56 PM
What DOES matter is that I believe in another thread you mentioned you got laid that night? In that case, I think you won the evening. While some gorilla fucks were too busy focused on urinating, you were securing sex! Not only is that more awesome just because, it's also a victory on the instinct level because, hey, hypothetically it would be your seed getting passed on.
Thread over. EoC wins.
Wow I didn't realies there was this much strategy involved!
At this point after throwing down a Magic or Trap card in the defensive position, you are allowed to take 4 steps to the left and scream Peeing Contest.
Enki's suggestion of making it Erotic - I think that's a sure way to get bashed on the spot however :lulz:
(note only read OP so far)
my response to that would be......
"THE FUCK! SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?!!?"
then a lot of head shaking would occur as i walked out.
Something like this actually happened to me back in october. I was in a club with the girlfriend (I hate them but she loves to dance). In the bathroom some yob starts shouting at me "stay the fuck away from my drink", he'd put it on the sink counter rather then hold it while pissing I guess. I just gave him a smirk "what were you thinking" look and wait for him to break eye contact.
I'd never get in a fight because of some stupid comments like that but as others said, if he so much as touched me aggressively I take that as an attempt on my life and respond in kind. Go for the genitals first, then the eyes and so on.
EoC speaks wisdom. I tried to tell myself the same, and it's good to see it coming from someone else.
I would feel uncomfortable striking first. I was a strict pacifist for a long time, and even though I don't think that's a valid line of reasoning to apply to people anymore, Cramulus made a very good point. It was only a suggested threat of sterile fluid. No harm done.
What is it about dignity or saving face? Why is it so important? Why do we get so caught up in maintaining it?
Quote from: Alty on May 11, 2010, 06:00:51 AM
EoC speaks wisdom. I tried to tell myself the same, and it's good to see it coming from someone else.
I would feel uncomfortable striking first. I was a strict pacifist for a long time, and even though I don't think that's a valid line of reasoning to apply to people anymore, Cramulus made a very good point. It was only a suggested threat of sterile fluid. No harm done.
What is it about dignity or saving face? Why is it so important? Why do we get so caught up in maintaining it?
Our societies ingrain in us social norms. A social norm is to save face, not cause confrontations.
They call it the Nafs
you think it's your pride, your money, your date, your bank account, your penis, your god,
something worth getting worked up over,
but it's not
it's your ego
and it tricks you into thinking its important so that you'll feed it power
Quote from: Alty on May 11, 2010, 06:00:51 AM
What is it about dignity or saving face? Why is it so important? Why do we get so caught up in maintaining it?
In before "irrational monkeys" :-P
Quote from: Faust on May 11, 2010, 01:44:39 AM
Go for the genitals first, then the eyes and so on.
Physical recovery: 6 weeks
Psychological recovery: 6 months