If the terrain is the map and the map is an individual ego/personality then isn't the terrain also, conceptually, god?
Warning: Definitions may become blurry as you enter the white light of mysticism.
The terrain is not the map. Maps are abstractions, terrains are part of the non-simultaneously perceived Universe impacting on your senses.
I SAID the definitions become blurry damnit.
Terrain-Reality (experience, perception, whatever) And the map of your ego as a description of that.
Why do you seperate the two?
Or should I say, why do you seperate the one? :P
The same reason you put the spaces between the words in your reply.
The original statement was sort of an offshoot of that old bit of wisdom that the terrain is the most accurate map of all.
Snark aside, if you want to communicate meaningfully about the topic in the OP, you have to differentiate. It's what language and abstractions are for (communication via abstraction, otherwise, meet me at the ZenDo and we can hit each other with sticks). Statements in language range between 3 (not two) value positions: True, False, and Meaningless.
Your position:
If T = M, and M = Egoindividual, then does T = Godthe divine undifferentiated?
...falls squarely into Meaningless territory (signs that lack meaning behind them), mainly because there isn't a complete thought represented there (and I even gave you the benefit of the doubt and subscripted the term 'God' for you).
This is the classic problem of adepts who have experienced the '5th circuit' holistic, all-is-one sensory turn-on of Neuro-Somatic Bliss. The signs and symbols (i.e. the maps) that we use to describe and get around our every day world of social interactions fail spectacularly. There are a few out there who can put the experience into words. (Rumi comes to mind from the Sufi tradition, Rinzai (Zen/Chan Buddhist) may be another, and James Joyce and Ezra Pound (his post Chinese-studies poetry) probably fit here as well.)
Edit: Don't want to kill the conversation... do you think you can put your thought from above into some Context (where were you/ what were you doing/ how were you feeling when it came to you? )
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 04:11:28 AM
If the terrain is the map and the map is an individual ego/personality then isn't the terrain also, conceptually, god?
Warning: Definitions may become blurry as you enter the white light of mysticism.
Faulty premise: Many Discordians (including myself) tend to follow the idea that the map is
NOT the territory.
If you wish to follow your initial premise, please support your assertion that the ideas in our ego/personality perfectly match external reality.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 04:11:28 AM
If the terrain is the map and the map is an individual ego/personality then isn't the terrain also, conceptually, god?
Warning: Definitions may become blurry as you enter the white light of mysticism.
It may be easier if we consider that the map is a model of the terrain... or, the map is a model of the individual ego/personality. The ego can also be modeled as 'god' for some purposes, but the ego is not actually god.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b9/MagrittePipe.jpg/220px-MagrittePipe.jpg)
This is not a pipe
-- it is an image which resembles a pipe.
And to take it a step further - It is not even an image, it's just some electrical activity in your brain!
helpful reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map–territory_relation
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 04:11:28 AM
If the terrain is the map and the map is an individual ego/personality then isn't the terrain also, conceptually, god?
Warning: Definitions may become blurry as you enter the white light of mysticism.
No. By your definitions, the terrain would be part of your ego and personality. You pulled "god" out of that concept the way a magician would pull a woman sawed in half from a top hat.
And also, I agree with the above posters that the map is certainly NOT the terrain, and the terrain is not the map. Where did you get the idea that it was?
Warning: Definitions may become blurry as you enter the vague blurry mist of bullshit.
Related to what's already been said.
neri - Keep playing with metaphors. Did you know that when imperialists were advertising land for settlement in North America and planning their trips, they sometimes made up maps of what the area might look like? In many cases, they'd never been to the places they were mapping. More often, maps were constructed to decide land ownership than to detail actual terrain. People would come over to find out that (for example) no, there wasn't a fresh water lake where there was supposed to be one. With map/grid in hand detailing the land they'd paid for, people would find out (surprise!) the place was already inhabited, it didn't exist, or what looked like awesome farmland was actually swamp.
... Like the 'rugged northern adventure' novels that were so popular in England in the first stages of NA colonialism - writers who'd never been still wrote about the beneficial moral and physical transformations that living in the wilderness of Canada would confer on young English boys. Canadians are still 'eating the menu' of that bit of propaganda.
Just a few different ways of thinking the word 'map.'
Quote from: Nurse Rhizome on May 19, 2010, 06:23:16 PMthe beneficial moral and physical transformations that living in the wilderness of Canada would confer on young English boys. Canadians are still 'eating the menu' of that bit of propaganda.
Are they?
Quote from: Hoopla on May 19, 2010, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: Nurse Rhizome on May 19, 2010, 06:23:16 PMthe beneficial moral and physical transformations that living in the wilderness of Canada would confer on young English boys. Some Canadians are still 'eating the menu' of that bit of propaganda.
Are they?
fixt for emphasis. Good point. I was still thinking in terms of colonial mentality.
And yeah, I grew up hearing folks talk about how the simple fact of living through winter made them god's chosen, tougher than 'southerners' and so on. There's some kind of messed up osmosis that happens in the minds of the always/already righteous: wherever they happen to live, their location becomes proof of virtue.
Does that make more sense?
rhizome,
- also a canuk
Quote from: Nurse Rhizome on May 19, 2010, 06:45:46 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on May 19, 2010, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: Nurse Rhizome on May 19, 2010, 06:23:16 PMthe beneficial moral and physical transformations that living in the wilderness of Canada would confer on young English boys. Some Canadians are still 'eating the menu' of that bit of propaganda.
Are they?
fixt for emphasis. Good point. I was still thinking in terms of colonial mentality.
And yeah, I grew up hearing folks talk about how the simple fact of living through winter made them god's chosen, tougher than 'southerners' and so on. There's some kind of messed up osmosis that happens in the minds of the always/already righteous: wherever they happen to live, their location becomes proof of virtue.
Does that make more sense?
rhizome,
- also a canuk
Definitely makes more sense. I hear it a lot from people who live in big cities. I hear it from a lot of Torontonians... "We're tougher because we have to put up with transit, crowds, shootings, etc etc etc...
Toronto is compensated by having the most beautiful strippers per capita of any major city.
Quote from: LMNO on May 19, 2010, 06:51:51 PM
Toronto is compensated by having the most beautiful strippers per capita of any major city.
I was not aware of that. Now that you mention it, the ones I've seen have been pretty good.
Y'all don't know how good you got it.
LMNO
- Has a total of two (2) strip clubs in Botson, neither is worth it. And the next available option is Providence, RI. Don't even.
Quote from: Telarus on May 19, 2010, 05:10:03 AM
Snark aside, if you want to communicate meaningfully about the topic in the OP, you have to differentiate. It's what language and abstractions are for (communication via abstraction, otherwise, meet me at the ZenDo and we can hit each other with sticks). Statements in language range between 3 (not two) value positions: True, False, and Meaningless.
Your position:
If T = M, and M = Egoindividual, then does T = Godthe divine undifferentiated?
...falls squarely into Meaningless territory (signs that lack meaning behind them), mainly because there isn't a complete thought represented there (and I even gave you the benefit of the doubt and subscripted the term 'God' for you).
This is the classic problem of adepts who have experienced the '5th circuit' holistic, all-is-one sensory turn-on of Neuro-Somatic Bliss. The signs and symbols (i.e. the maps) that we use to describe and get around our every day world of social interactions fail spectacularly. There are a few out there who can put the experience into words. (Rumi comes to mind from the Sufi tradition, Rinzai (Zen/Chan bhuddist) may be another, and James Joyce and Ezra Pound (his post Chinese-studies poetry) probably fit here as well.)
Edit: Don't want to kill the conversation... do you think you can put your thought from above into some Context (where were you/ what were you doing/ how were you feeling when it came to you? )
I like this and what else you've had to say in this thread. Especially linking the OP to the 5th circuit. It seems like often, when people first step into 5C, they have trouble /backing out/ to analyze it. The page in Angel Tech referring to the bliss-->collapse--->reflection cycle (I can't remember it exactly) where a person in All is One mode has to step out of rapture and away from the experience to grow from it.
Yeah. "If All is One, then the Map is the Territory!"
That right there is one horrible clusterfuck of semantics, that is.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 04:11:28 AM
If the terrain is the map and the map is an individual ego/personality then isn't the terrain also, conceptually, god?
Warning: Definitions may become blurry as you enter the white light of mysticism.
wut
Dok,
Doesn't speak hippie.
Quote from: LMNO on May 19, 2010, 07:04:51 PM
Yeah. "If All is One, then the Map is the Territory!"
That right there is one horrible clusterfuck of semantics, that is.
Definitely. Which is why 5C rapture isn't a good time and place for 3C musings.
Quote from: Kai on May 19, 2010, 07:14:25 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 19, 2010, 07:04:51 PM
Yeah. "If All is One, then the Map is the Territory!"
That right there is one horrible clusterfuck of semantics, that is.
Definitely. Which is why 5C rapture isn't a good time and place for 3C musings.
Music to my ears, Kai ;-)
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 07:19:27 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 19, 2010, 07:14:25 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 19, 2010, 07:04:51 PM
Yeah. "If All is One, then the Map is the Territory!"
That right there is one horrible clusterfuck of semantics, that is.
Definitely. Which is why 5C rapture isn't a good time and place for 3C musings.
Music to my ears, Kai ;-)
Hey, YOU'RE the one who sent me AT, so you should expect it.
Quote from: Kai on May 19, 2010, 07:21:55 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 07:19:27 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 19, 2010, 07:14:25 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 19, 2010, 07:04:51 PM
Yeah. "If All is One, then the Map is the Territory!"
That right there is one horrible clusterfuck of semantics, that is.
Definitely. Which is why 5C rapture isn't a good time and place for 3C musings.
Music to my ears, Kai ;-)
Hey, YOU'RE the one who sent me AT, so you should expect it.
I never 'expected' it, but I am glad that your response wasn't "Why did you send me this pretentious book of assbaggery?" ;-)
Quote from: LMNO on May 19, 2010, 07:04:51 PM
Yeah. "If All is One, then the Map is the Territory!"
That right there is one horrible clusterfuck of semantics, that is.
Seriously.
How's this for a re-format:
Because we can achieve a mindstate where we do not abstract parts of reality away from its undifferentiated flow, we can realize that 'the territory' and 'the map' are deeply interconnected parts of said flow which we have arbitrarily drawn boundaries around. We should keep in mind that these labels and models come from within us, not external to us, and that while they may be useful for a time we should not cling to them. Reality remains in constant flux and clinging to a (soon outdated) map will lead you further from the light into the dark empty places where you are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
Oddly enought, I find that to be a higher amount of gibberish than the original.
At least in the former version, I can differentiate where things go wrong.
Quote from: LMNO on May 19, 2010, 08:04:13 PM
Oddly enought, I find that to be a higher amount of gibberish than the original.
At least in the former version, I can differentiate where things go wrong.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
So what can we take from this thread?
IMO, it's that 5th circuit is something experienced, but discussing 5th circuit from within 5th circuit ends up sounding like gibberish.
Which is why no one thinks stoned people are smart except other stoned people.
""""Because we can achieve a mindstate where we do not abstract parts of reality away from its undifferentiated flow, we can realize that 'the territory' and 'the map' are deeply interconnected parts of said flow which we have arbitrarily drawn boundaries around.""""
THIS. Sounds pretty good to me actually, not perfect, but closer to what I was trying to say.
I wasn't so much saying that the map is reality but that the map (personalities) are part of the reality.
Like part of eachother. Shit, THAT sounds less clear to me. And more meaningless emotionally.
Meh. I was meditating on a long bus ride after a day or two of not eating hopped up on caffeine and appetite suppresents. I had one of those moments where something feels like it makes sense and is deeply meaningful.
Like I was picturing my personality as an inlaid pattern on a giant block of wood representing reality(god). Part of eachother.
I guess I was just trying to express something I really can't. You're right I ain't rumi, lol.
"""Faulty premise: Many Discordians (including myself) tend to follow the idea that the map is NOT the territory.
If you wish to follow your initial premise, please support your assertion that the ideas in our ego/personality perfectly match external reality."""
Maybe irrelevant in the sense that I am trying to use these words? Or I'm just looking at the subject from a different angle.
"""No. By your definitions, the terrain would be part of your ego and personality.""" Yep... Isn't it? :P
The terrain as god thing makes sense to me. But then again for me minds are just patterns of referent information, active or not.
And while we re on the subject..Does gravity cause telepathy or what? (look for the relevancy)
It may be your metaphysical opinion that minds are just "patterns of referent information", but I have evidence to falsify that.
To your question: No. And I don't see the relevance.
evidence against a prism through which to view chaos?
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 10:10:34 PM
And while we re on the subject..Does gravity cause telepathy or what? (look for the relevancy)
Not seeing the relevance.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 10:17:06 PM
evidence against a prism through which to view chaos?
Freshly baked bunnies. Gadzooks, I have killer syphilis.
Dok,
Trying to communicate.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 10:17:06 PM
evidence against a prism through which to view chaos?
Er...how to say this.....what you are saying doesn't make any sense to me.
Easy Kai, tell them to stop speaking stoner gibberish.
I am feeling a little bitchy atm it seems.
Quote from: Kai on May 19, 2010, 10:59:38 PM
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 10:17:06 PM
evidence against a prism through which to view chaos?
Er...how to say this.....what you are saying doesn't make any sense to me.
DROP YOUR PANCE, SIR WILLIAM, I CAN'T WAIT FOR LUNCH!
Quote from: Rainy Day Pixie on May 19, 2010, 11:02:23 PM
Easy Kai, tell them to stop speaking stoner gibberish.
I am feeling a little bitchy atm it seems.
But it's so
mystical and shit!
Well if minds are patterns of referent information which cause gravitational fields (beause of their substrate) then even then the non-active ones may (or may not) have a life of their own through subtle interaction with active ones.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 11:04:25 PM
Well if minds are patterns of referent information which cause gravitational fields (beause of their substrate)
They aren't, and they don't.
And you should wait until your peak passes before posting. Saves embarrassment later.
CHAOS VIEWING PRISM FUCKDAMNIT HOWL.
And in response to your nuhuh, Uhuh.
SPEAK ENGLISH EEJIT!
FUCKNOWAY YOU PROXY!
And hey! :wave: I'm a rain goddess to!
No.
I are Rain Goddess.
You are an eejit.
*hug*
shh, it's ok.
Don't hug me!
You smell like pot and that makes me cranky.
I'm serious.
You may drown.
This went swiftly downhill. :|
Sorry hoops. The snowflake syndrome of the noob got stuck in my teeth.
Quote from: Rainy Day Pixie on May 19, 2010, 11:48:49 PM
Sorry hoops. The snowflake syndrome of the noob got stuck in my teeth.
Oh, I'm not blaming you.
Oh I dunno, I think it went swimmingly.
I'm new so my offhand humor isn't cool yet, I get that.
Honestly using it as a shiny object to befuddle those who don't get what I'm saying.
Ok.
42.
Sorry, douglas devotee here.
Do not eat the menu.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 11:19:12 PM
FUCKNOWAY YOU PROXY!
And hey! :wave: I'm a rain goddess to!
FAIL.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 11:56:14 PM
42.
Sorry, douglas devotee here.
Yeah, we caught the mindless regurgitation of a joke that was funny when it was told because it was unexpected.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 11:53:00 PM
I'm new so my offhand humor isn't cool yet, I get that.
Yet? :lulz:
Ah, optimism.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 20, 2010, 02:56:21 AM
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 11:53:00 PM
I'm new so my offhand humor isn't cool yet, I get that.
Yet? :lulz:
Ah, optimism.
Dok, you're such a pessimist. Give it a couple days and she'll educate us in the Right and Proper Ways of Discordianism
TM.
And yet, they always claim they lurk...
Quote from: Hoopla on May 19, 2010, 11:46:42 PM
This went swiftly downhill. :|
I never thought it was uphill.
It was a jargon-fest, IMO.
Except for the OP, who is high on dog shit.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 20, 2010, 03:30:37 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on May 19, 2010, 11:46:42 PM
This went swiftly downhill. :|
I never thought it was uphill.
It was a jargon-fest, IMO.
Except for the OP, who is high on dog shit.
I didn't mean to imply that it was ever uphill... I view this recent turn of events like a pothole, slightly lower than regular low.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 19, 2010, 10:10:34 PM
Quote from: LMNO"""Faulty premise: Many Discordians (including myself) tend to follow the idea that the map is NOT the territory.
If you wish to follow your initial premise, please support your assertion that the ideas in our ego/personality perfectly match external reality."""
Maybe irrelevant in the sense that I am trying to use these words? Or I'm just looking at the subject from a different angle.
Quote from: LMNO"""No. By your definitions, the terrain would be part of your ego and personality."""
Yep... Isn't it? :P
No, actually... The ego and personality are part of the terrain, not the other way around. Your filters (BIP, reality grid, limited perceptions,
et al) are a set which are inside a larger Reality. You only see a small part of a bigger whole.
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/forum/brochead.png)
Quote from: Kai on May 19, 2010, 09:59:12 PM
So what can we take from this thread?
IMO, it's that 5th circuit is something experienced, but discussing 5th circuit from within 5th circuit ends up sounding like gibberish.
Which is why no one thinks stoned people are smart except other stoned people.
Even without pot specifically, I think this is a plausible idea. I mean, through any of the 'bliss' options people have the same problem... when someone is totally blissed out, they can't communicate well cause they sound like a flower child. Outside of the bliss state though, the experiences within the bliss state can be useful.
"Oceanic Bliss" does not align well with "Rational use of Symbols"
Quote from: Siddhartha, addressing the BuddhaYou are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing: I have not doubted in you for a
single moment. I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death. It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment. It has not
come to you by means of teachings! And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings! You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!
The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil. But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain: they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands. This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings. This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.
Siddhartha, page 18 (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=746760&pageno=18)
Quote from: Cramulus on May 20, 2010, 03:26:06 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha, addressing the BuddhaYou are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing: I have not doubted in you for a
single moment. I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death. It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment. It has not
come to you by means of teachings! And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings! You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!
The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil. But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain: they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands. This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings. This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.
Siddhartha, page 18 (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=746760&pageno=18)
Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 04:02:14 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 20, 2010, 03:26:06 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha, addressing the BuddhaYou are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing: I have not doubted in you for a
single moment. I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death. It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment. It has not
come to you by means of teachings! And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings! You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!
The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil. But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain: they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands. This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings. This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.
Siddhartha, page 18 (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=746760&pageno=18)
Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.
And he's dead now. What does that tell you?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 20, 2010, 05:05:23 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 04:02:14 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 20, 2010, 03:26:06 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha, addressing the BuddhaYou are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing: I have not doubted in you for a
single moment. I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death. It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment. It has not
come to you by means of teachings! And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings! You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!
The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil. But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain: they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands. This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings. This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.
Siddhartha, page 18 (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=746760&pageno=18)
Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.
And he's dead now. What does that tell you?
That death is inevitable for everyone?
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 05:06:27 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 20, 2010, 05:05:23 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 04:02:14 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 20, 2010, 03:26:06 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha, addressing the BuddhaYou are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing: I have not doubted in you for a
single moment. I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death. It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment. It has not
come to you by means of teachings! And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings! You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!
The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil. But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain: they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands. This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings. This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.
Siddhartha, page 18 (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=746760&pageno=18)
Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.
And he's dead now. What does that tell you?
That death is inevitable for everyone?
Assumes facts not in evidence. I am still alive, for example.
Dok,
Working on a new exit.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 20, 2010, 05:05:23 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 04:02:14 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 20, 2010, 03:26:06 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha, addressing the BuddhaYou are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing: I have not doubted in you for a
single moment. I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death. It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment. It has not
come to you by means of teachings! And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings! You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!
The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil. But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain: they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands. This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings. This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.
Siddhartha, page 18 (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=746760&pageno=18)
Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.
And he's dead now. What does that tell you?
That he's had at least one experience which we haven't had yet? ;-)
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 20, 2010, 05:23:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 20, 2010, 05:05:23 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 04:02:14 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 20, 2010, 03:26:06 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha, addressing the BuddhaYou are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing: I have not doubted in you for a
single moment. I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death. It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment. It has not
come to you by means of teachings! And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings! You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!
The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil. But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain: they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands. This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings. This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.
Siddhartha, page 18 (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=746760&pageno=18)
Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.
And he's dead now. What does that tell you?
That he's had at least one experience which we haven't had yet? ;-)
Except death is a lack of experience.
Kai,
is being cheeky because you are.
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 20, 2010, 05:23:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 20, 2010, 05:05:23 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 04:02:14 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 20, 2010, 03:26:06 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha, addressing the BuddhaYou are truly right, there is little to opinions.
But let me say this one more thing: I have not doubted in you for a
single moment. I have not doubted for a single moment that you are
Buddha, that you have reached the goal, the highest goal towards which
so many thousands of Brahmans and sons of Brahmans are on their way.
You have found salvation from death. It has come to you in the course
of your own search, on your own path, through thoughts, through
meditation, through realizations, through enlightenment. It has not
come to you by means of teachings! And--thus is my thought, oh exalted
one,--nobody will obtain salvation by means of teachings! You will not
be able to convey and say to anybody, oh venerable one, in words and
through teachings what has happened to you in the hour of enlightenment!
The teachings of the enlightened Buddha contain much, it teaches many to
live righteously, to avoid evil. But there is one thing which these so
clear, these so venerable teachings do not contain: they do not contain
the mystery of what the exalted one has experienced for himself, he
alone among hundreds of thousands. This is what I have thought and
realized, when I have heard the teachings. This is why I am continuing
my travels--not to seek other, better teachings, for I know there are
none, but to depart from all teachings and all teachers and to reach my
goal by myself or to die.
Siddhartha, page 18 (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=746760&pageno=18)
Yeah. 5C evades words. For the most part. But I think (the real) Siddhartha understood that, FWIW.
And he's dead now. What does that tell you?
That he's had at least one experience which we haven't had yet? ;-)
Yeah. He should tell us about it.
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 05:32:56 PM
Except death is a lack of experience.
Kai,
is being cheeky because you are.
But, dying is an experience....
(Double Plus Cheeky) ;-)
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 20, 2010, 05:36:35 PM
Yeah. He should tell us about it.
Damn straight... all these holy people tell us about what's gonna happen, until they go find out, then they never come back and tell us if they were right or not. I think they get there and its totally different, so they're too embarrassed to come back and let us know.
:argh!:
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 20, 2010, 05:44:30 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 05:32:56 PM
Except death is a lack of experience.
Kai,
is being cheeky because you are.
But, dying is an experience....
(Double Plus Cheeky) ;-)
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 20, 2010, 05:36:35 PM
Yeah. He should tell us about it.
Damn straight... all these holy people tell us about what's gonna happen, until they go find out, then they never come back and tell us if they were right or not. I think they get there and its totally different, so they're too embarrassed to come back and let us know.
:argh!:
This is why all religions are a crock of shit except the Church of the Subgenius, because "Bob" won't STOP coming back from the dead to chat, no matter how many times we kill him.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 20, 2010, 05:46:19 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 20, 2010, 05:44:30 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 05:32:56 PM
Except death is a lack of experience.
Kai,
is being cheeky because you are.
But, dying is an experience....
(Double Plus Cheeky) ;-)
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 20, 2010, 05:36:35 PM
Yeah. He should tell us about it.
Damn straight... all these holy people tell us about what's gonna happen, until they go find out, then they never come back and tell us if they were right or not. I think they get there and its totally different, so they're too embarrassed to come back and let us know.
:argh!:
This is why all religions are a crock of shit except the Church of the Subgenius, because "Bob" won't STOP coming back from the dead to chat, no matter how many times we kill him.
:lulz:
LMNO...that's what I was trying to express. Also was trying to impart my reverence for those perceptions, however limited.
terrain big personality, me little personality encapsulated in terrain.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 20, 2010, 08:40:02 PM
LMNO...that's what I was trying to express. Also was trying to impart my reverence for those perceptions, however limited.
terrain big personality, me little personality encapsulated in terrain.
Around these parts we call that the Black Iron Prison.
...therefore, litte personality cannot describe terrain.
So, stop describing, and start creating.
Quote from: LMNO on May 20, 2010, 08:49:28 PM
...therefore, litte personality cannot describe terrain.
So, stop describing, and start creating.
Sometimes description precludes creation.
Kai,
Doktor Systematik
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 08:58:23 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 20, 2010, 08:49:28 PM
...therefore, litte personality cannot describe terrain.
So, stop describing, and start creating.
Sometimes description precludes creation.
Kai,
Doktor Systematik
I agree. Describing the territory means applying labels to bits of the territory "That IS a tree" "That IS a creek" etc. Once we humans decide what something IS it becomes much more difficult to consider that thing as possibly something else.
So, describing the terrain while only seeing it from the 'little personality', means that we might be applying the incorrect labels. Applying the incorrect labels, means we might have a harder time changing our minds about the territory later.
I think...
I read the prison awhile back.
Preferred the golden sphere idea if you can't tell.
Been trying to steer my ship away from cynicism and towards reverence/divinity.
Not that they are mutually exclusive or anything. (look at tgrr for christs sake)
Found out my system can only handle just so much bile is all.
""...therefore, litte personality cannot describe terrain."" May it strive to embody it within your framework?
Worshippers becoming aspects of that which they worship.
Guess I'm trying to create myself.
""""I agree. Describing the territory means applying labels to bits of the territory "That IS a tree" "That IS a creek" etc. Once we humans decide what something IS it becomes much more difficult to consider that thing as possibly something else.
So, describing the terrain while only seeing it from the 'little personality', means that we might be applying the incorrect labels. Applying the incorrect labels, means we might have a harder time changing our minds about the territory later.
I think...""""
Solution: Close inspection and reflection of terrain. Continual worship? (I just know someones gonna hate my terms)
There is no cynicism in the BIP. The words are just metaphors.
True.
I've seen some react to it cynically though.
Quote from: Ratatosk on May 20, 2010, 09:07:56 PM
Quote from: Kai on May 20, 2010, 08:58:23 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 20, 2010, 08:49:28 PM
...therefore, litte personality cannot describe terrain.
So, stop describing, and start creating.
Sometimes description precludes creation.
Kai,
Doktor Systematik
I agree. Describing the territory means applying labels to bits of the territory "That IS a tree" "That IS a creek" etc. Once we humans decide what something IS it becomes much more difficult to consider that thing as possibly something else.
So, describing the terrain while only seeing it from the 'little personality', means that we might be applying the incorrect labels. Applying the incorrect labels, means we might have a harder time changing our minds about the territory later.
I think...
I said "precludes" but I really should have said (and meant) whatever the best word is for "necessarily comes before" or "preludes" or whatever. I'm slightly drunk, no excuse.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 20, 2010, 09:42:43 PM
True.
I've seen some react to it cynically though.
Freedom means freedom to be wrong.
Quote from: LMNO on May 20, 2010, 08:49:28 PM
...therefore, litte personality cannot describe terrain.
So, stop describing, and start creating.
I JUST CREATED SOMETHING, DUDE! WANNA HEAR ABOUT IT?
Requires?
In systematics, no sense can be made until the species are given names, are properly described. Only then do patterns become clear.
Quote from: nerinamakani on May 20, 2010, 09:21:48 PM
I read the prison awhile back.
Preferred the golden sphere idea if you can't tell.
Been trying to steer my ship away from cynicism and towards reverence/divinity.
Not that they are mutually exclusive or anything. (look at tgrr for christs sake)
Found out my system can only handle just so much bile is all.
Bile is optional. Some people choose to use it, some people choose not to use it. I think for me, the GSP and the BIP are the same, except in how the individual chooses to perceive them. If they see themselves as a prisoner, then they're playing in the BIP, if they see themselves as a passenger then they're playing with the GSP. Either way they're limited in their perception and their experience...
Quote
""...therefore, litte personality cannot describe terrain."" May it strive to embody it within your framework?
Worshippers becoming aspects of that which they worship.
Guess I'm trying to create myself.
Not sure where you're going with that.
Quote
""""I agree. Describing the territory means applying labels to bits of the territory "That IS a tree" "That IS a creek" etc. Once we humans decide what something IS it becomes much more difficult to consider that thing as possibly something else.
So, describing the terrain while only seeing it from the 'little personality', means that we might be applying the incorrect labels. Applying the incorrect labels, means we might have a harder time changing our minds about the territory later.
I think...""""
Solution: Close inspection and reflection of terrain. Continual worship? (I just know someones gonna hate my terms)
Continual inspection and reflection of what we perceive as the terrain maybe?