Very interesting video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOyOcjA_T6k
The reason why I never started on a Thelemic path is because - the way it was explained to me at least - you couldn't understand anything of the higher truths without totally absorbing the lower truths through ritual and practice. In other words, you had to fully enter that reality tunnel before you could start to evaluate anything of value.
So with that in mind, wouldn't someone taking The Oath of the Abyss already be steeped in certain ways of thinking which would influence their reaction, whether fully conscious or not? Isn't that the total opposite of TFY,S?
Interesting as an idea / thought experiment. Like other thelema (Or even other religions, FFS) though, it seems to get caught up in it's own trappings to put gravitas on a process or idea.
I have interacted with Thelemites before, and it seems really amazing that the organization stays running despite the decadence and wackiness of the people there. It just seems like another cult to me, just smaller than Christianity. Ra-hoor-khuit instead of Jesus. Jonestown Kool-Aid, colored purple instead of red.
Reading Crowley seems far more interesting than talking with Thelemics...
It's best to pick and choose with Thelema, imo. Crowley wrote a lot of things, especially the Gnostic Mass, as a way to piss off Christians and get his butthurt revenge on his fundie parents. He also had the emotional maturity of your average six year-old. And there are people who try to emulate this guy only to completely screw up their personal lives. Then they wonder why afterwards.
As opposed to "Bob", who parodied religions to make money.
Yeah, sometimes it seems like Crowley parodied religions to get even.
....and laid, of course.
Quote from: LMNO on June 23, 2010, 08:24:47 PM
Yeah, sometimes it seems like Crowley parodied religions to get even.
....and laid, of course.
And just to fuck with the British Public in general...
Quote"But it is your own fault if you ... only see of me what Moses saw of God!
It is disgusting to have to spend one's life jetting dirt in the face of the British public in the hope that in washing it they may wash off the acrid grease of their commercialism, the saline streaks of their hypocritical tears, the putrid perspiration of their morality, the dribbling slobber of their sentimentality and their religion. And they don't wash it!"
He would have made an interesting rock star
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on June 23, 2010, 08:29:55 PM
He would have made an interesting rock star
Many rock stars have claimed inspiration from Uncle Al. Ozzie, Jim Morrison, David Bowie, Mick Jagger, Jimmy Page... umm.. the Beatles, Daryl Hall etc etc etc
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 23, 2010, 08:34:32 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on June 23, 2010, 08:29:55 PM
He would have made an interesting rock star
Many rock stars have claimed inspiration from Uncle Al. Ozzie, Jim Morrison, David Bowie, Mick Jagger, Jimmy Page... umm.. the Beatles, Daryl Hall etc etc etc
Makes sense.
Even Jeff Martin, actually, rock star status debatable though it is.
Also post 777 :lulz:
What jumped out at me from the above video is the warning not to interpret these messages that Universe is sending to you, because that leads to paranoia. This has (to me) many similarities in the 'sitting' Zazen exercises, where you recognize thoughts in order to relax and let them go.
Quote"But it is your own fault if you ... only see of me what Moses saw of God!
Just in case some non-christians didn't get this... in the Bible Moses asks to see YHVH and YHVH says "If you saw me you'd die." So instead he has Moses hide in a hole in the ground, then passes by and tells Moses to look after he goes by... ala Moses just saw the Omniscient Arse.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 23, 2010, 05:19:06 PM
Reading Crowley seems far more interesting than talking with Thelemics...
Thelemics are a fucking walking contradiction. If there was every anybody who advocated thinking for yourself it was Crowley. For all his faults and foibles he was pretty fucking clear on that one point. And what do the Thelemites do? They worship him and argue over what thoughts he intended for them to think for themselves. Just when you thought it couldn't get any more retarded than mainstream religion's Empty Box Scam, along comes the cult of the bald man :lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 24, 2010, 02:14:19 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 23, 2010, 05:19:06 PM
Reading Crowley seems far more interesting than talking with Thelemics...
Thelemics are a fucking walking contradiction. If there was every anybody who advocated thinking for yourself it was Crowley. For all his faults and foibles he was pretty fucking clear on that one point. And what do the Thelemites do? They worship him and argue over what thoughts he intended for them to think for themselves. Just when you thought it couldn't get any more retarded than mainstream religion's Empty Box Scam, along comes the cult of the bald man :lulz:
Isn't that pretty much what happened with the Church of Satan too?
and the Raelians, and the Raj Neesh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osho_%28Bhagwan_Shree_Rajneesh%29
....and ...and ...and
Did you hear they're making an Atlas Shrugged movie? :x
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on June 24, 2010, 04:33:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 24, 2010, 02:14:19 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 23, 2010, 05:19:06 PM
Reading Crowley seems far more interesting than talking with Thelemics...
Thelemics are a fucking walking contradiction. If there was every anybody who advocated thinking for yourself it was Crowley. For all his faults and foibles he was pretty fucking clear on that one point. And what do the Thelemites do? They worship him and argue over what thoughts he intended for them to think for themselves. Just when you thought it couldn't get any more retarded than mainstream religion's Empty Box Scam, along comes the cult of the bald man :lulz:
Isn't that pretty much what happened with the Church of Satan too?
From the LaVey I've read; Yes.
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 24, 2010, 02:14:19 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 23, 2010, 05:19:06 PM
Reading Crowley seems far more interesting than talking with Thelemics...
Thelemics are a fucking walking contradiction. If there was every anybody who advocated thinking for yourself it was Crowley. For all his faults and foibles he was pretty fucking clear on that one point. And what do the Thelemites do? They worship him and argue over what thoughts he intended for them to think for themselves. Just when you thought it couldn't get any more retarded than mainstream religion's Empty Box Scam, along comes the cult of the bald man :lulz:
:lulz:
Sad and TROOF!
Quote from: Telarus on June 24, 2010, 04:58:21 PM
and the Raelians, and the Raj Neesh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osho_%28Bhagwan_Shree_Rajneesh%29
....and ...and ...and
Did you hear they're making an Atlas Shrugged movie? :x
:lulz: Raelians are hilarious!
And, yes, I've heard tell of the movie
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 22, 2010, 01:53:06 AM
The reason why I never started on a Thelemic path is because - the way it was explained to me at least - you couldn't understand anything of the higher truths without totally absorbing the lower truths through ritual and practice. In other words, you had to fully enter that reality tunnel before you could start to evaluate anything of value.
So with that in mind, wouldn't someone taking The Oath of the Abyss already be steeped in certain ways of thinking which would influence their reaction, whether fully conscious or not? Isn't that the total opposite of TFY,S?
Look at it another way - you can't not be in one reality tunnel or another. Being in a reality tunnel is how you experience manifestation. Given that that's the case you are either in a reality tunnel of your own making, one which has been imposed upon you or (as is most often the case) a mixture of the two. Thelema is simply a reality tunnel, designed on purpose with the purpose being ... well we all know the purpose of Thelema, right? You want to achieve that goal then entering that system is as good a way as any. If you do it with purpose then fooling yourself is a means to an end, nothing more. It's fooling yourself when you don't know that's what you're doing that's the opposite of TFYS :wink:
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 24, 2010, 06:11:54 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 22, 2010, 01:53:06 AM
The reason why I never started on a Thelemic path is because - the way it was explained to me at least - you couldn't understand anything of the higher truths without totally absorbing the lower truths through ritual and practice. In other words, you had to fully enter that reality tunnel before you could start to evaluate anything of value.
So with that in mind, wouldn't someone taking The Oath of the Abyss already be steeped in certain ways of thinking which would influence their reaction, whether fully conscious or not? Isn't that the total opposite of TFY,S?
Look at it another way - you can't not be in one reality tunnel or another. Being in a reality tunnel is how you experience manifestation. Given that that's the case you are either in a reality tunnel of your own making, one which has been imposed upon you or (as is most often the case) a mixture of the two. Thelema is simply a reality tunnel, designed on purpose with the purpose being ... well we all know the purpose of Thelema, right? You want to achieve that goal then entering that system is as good a way as any. If you do it with purpose then fooling yourself is a means to an end, nothing more. It's fooling yourself when you don't know that's what you're doing that's the opposite of TFYS :wink:
This is the correct motorcycle.
Accepting someone else's reality tunnel for awhile can provide great insights on some of the reasons why that person thinks the way they think... as long as you don't get stuck there ;-)
good friend of mine needs some answers in his life and he's turning to Christ. Of all people.
I don't want to pooh pooh his efforts because it's doing wonders for his mood. But still, it's hard to watch somebody build a reality tunnel and think they're finding capital-T Truth.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 24, 2010, 06:30:28 PM
good friend of mine needs some answers in his life and he's turning to Christ. Of all people.
I don't want to pooh pooh his efforts because it's doing wonders for his mood. But still, it's hard to watch somebody build a reality tunnel and think they're finding capital-T Truth.
My advice - stick with it. I have a friend (a real good friend) who went exactly the same way. Once you get over the initial horrorshock it becomes assfuckingly hilarious real quick :lulz:
Quote from: Cramulus on June 24, 2010, 06:30:28 PM
good friend of mine needs some answers in his life and he's turning to Christ. Of all people.
I don't want to pooh pooh his efforts because it's doing wonders for his mood. But still, it's hard to watch somebody build a reality tunnel and think they're finding capital-T Truth.
I have a friend that is going through a divorce, feels like his life is destroyed (was WAAAAY too devoted to his wife) and... he turned to the Masons, cause his dad and brothers etc all said it was the Right Choice.
:fnord:
I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.
Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join. They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.
Quote from: Richter on June 24, 2010, 06:54:34 PM
I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.
Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join. They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.
Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.
Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 24, 2010, 07:27:00 PM
Quote from: Richter on June 24, 2010, 06:54:34 PM
I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.
Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join. They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.
Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.
Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/
Again, from my buddies involvement with them, it seems to have elements of self improvement philosophy (maybe Rosicrusian - esque, I've yet to cross reference.), "How not to be an idiot monkey" / "Promote social stability" behavior standards, and networking. To echo the old saying, there is no help, but I'd rather see a buddy of mine try to derive guidance from the Masons than a 12 step.
One recurring theme from the OP is the amount of gravitas associated with conducting what IMHO is just a thought experiment. I'm jsut not seeing the necessity of it.
Quote from: Richter on June 25, 2010, 04:22:31 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 24, 2010, 07:27:00 PM
Quote from: Richter on June 24, 2010, 06:54:34 PM
I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.
Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join. They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.
Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.
Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/
Again, from my buddies involvement with them, it seems to have elements of self improvement philosophy (maybe Rosicrusian - esque, I've yet to cross reference.), "How not to be an idiot monkey" / "Promote social stability" behavior standards, and networking. To echo the old saying, there is no help, but I'd rather see a buddy of mine try to derive guidance from the Masons than a 12 step.
One recurring theme from the OP is the amount of gravitas associated with conducting what IMHO is just a thought experiment. I'm jsut not seeing the necessity of it.
Some thought experiments have the potential to really fuck you up. If you're not in the habit of doing things like this then it might be a bit hard to swallow - all you're doing is playing with your thoughts, right? Think about it this way - it's the subtle interplay of your thoughts themselves that make your whole worldview. Take racism - all a racist is, is someone who's thoughts are kinda twisted in a xenophobic direction. It's not genetic, it's not demonic possession, it's just a matter of forming an opinion, a worldview if you like. I'd guess most racists don't set out to be that way, they're either brought up and programmed with it or maybe it just happens, they get beat up by a specifically coloured person one day and reach a logical fallacy by way of conclusion.
That's the kind of shit that can happen by accident. When you start doing it on purpose, by the time you get the hang of it, you can make much bigger changes and introduce much bigger pathologies much more easily. Bit of care is required is all. The mind can be like a house of cards - it's a good idea to be careful when you're rearranging the ones on the bottom.
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 25, 2010, 04:45:42 PM
Quote from: Richter on June 25, 2010, 04:22:31 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 24, 2010, 07:27:00 PM
Quote from: Richter on June 24, 2010, 06:54:34 PM
I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.
Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join. They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.
Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.
Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/
Again, from my buddies involvement with them, it seems to have elements of self improvement philosophy (maybe Rosicrusian - esque, I've yet to cross reference.), "How not to be an idiot monkey" / "Promote social stability" behavior standards, and networking. To echo the old saying, there is no help, but I'd rather see a buddy of mine try to derive guidance from the Masons than a 12 step.
One recurring theme from the OP is the amount of gravitas associated with conducting what IMHO is just a thought experiment. I'm jsut not seeing the necessity of it.
Some thought experiments have the potential to really fuck you up. If you're not in the habit of doing things like this then it might be a bit hard to swallow - all you're doing is playing with your thoughts, right? Think about it this way - it's the subtle interplay of your thoughts themselves that make your whole worldview. Take racism - all a racist is, is someone who's thoughts are kinda twisted in a xenophobic direction. It's not genetic, it's not demonic possession, it's just a matter of forming an opinion, a worldview if you like. I'd guess most racists don't set out to be that way, they're either brought up and programmed with it or maybe it just happens, they get beat up by a specifically coloured person one day and reach a logical fallacy by way of conclusion.
That's the kind of shit that can happen by accident. When you start doing it on purpose, by the time you get the hang of it, you can make much bigger changes and introduce much bigger pathologies much more easily. Bit of care is required is all. The mind can be like a house of cards - it's a good idea to be careful when you're rearranging the ones on the bottom.
Let me elaborate a bit on that, as far as how I handle ideas and experiments like our "Oath of the Abyss"
(Good breakdown of the basics, but that wasn't where I was going with my post.)
It's your brain. If you want to think a different way to see where it takes you, jsut do it. You are asolutely right this will take practice and discipline. Considering it an "Oath" that you have to take does give it a LOT more mental weight than just, "Ok, I'm doing this now until I get bored, forget it, etc.", and could make it easier to stick with, or focus on. Is this mental weighting necessary though? It's an agreement with yourself, and no cult, group, or otherwise is going to come along and smack you with a stick if you forget to think of everything in context of said oath for a minute. If the idea (at least IMHO), is self development, then no one else can expect it of you or force you into it. Crowley isn't going to rise from his grave to waggle a finger at you.
"Try it, see how it works for you, and back off if you need a breather, if you forget or lapse out of it, pick up again when you remember", is my usual approach. My head, my rules, I jsut don't see the purpose of dressing it up funny and dubbing it "Of the Abyss".
Quote from: Richter on June 25, 2010, 05:39:09 PM
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 25, 2010, 04:45:42 PM
Quote from: Richter on June 25, 2010, 04:22:31 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 24, 2010, 07:27:00 PM
Quote from: Richter on June 24, 2010, 06:54:34 PM
I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.
Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join. They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.
Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.
Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/
Again, from my buddies involvement with them, it seems to have elements of self improvement philosophy (maybe Rosicrusian - esque, I've yet to cross reference.), "How not to be an idiot monkey" / "Promote social stability" behavior standards, and networking. To echo the old saying, there is no help, but I'd rather see a buddy of mine try to derive guidance from the Masons than a 12 step.
One recurring theme from the OP is the amount of gravitas associated with conducting what IMHO is just a thought experiment. I'm jsut not seeing the necessity of it.
Some thought experiments have the potential to really fuck you up. If you're not in the habit of doing things like this then it might be a bit hard to swallow - all you're doing is playing with your thoughts, right? Think about it this way - it's the subtle interplay of your thoughts themselves that make your whole worldview. Take racism - all a racist is, is someone who's thoughts are kinda twisted in a xenophobic direction. It's not genetic, it's not demonic possession, it's just a matter of forming an opinion, a worldview if you like. I'd guess most racists don't set out to be that way, they're either brought up and programmed with it or maybe it just happens, they get beat up by a specifically coloured person one day and reach a logical fallacy by way of conclusion.
That's the kind of shit that can happen by accident. When you start doing it on purpose, by the time you get the hang of it, you can make much bigger changes and introduce much bigger pathologies much more easily. Bit of care is required is all. The mind can be like a house of cards - it's a good idea to be careful when you're rearranging the ones on the bottom.
Let me elaborate a bit on that, as far as how I handle ideas and experiments like our "Oath of the Abyss"
(Good breakdown of the basics, but that wasn't where I was going with my post.)
It's your brain. If you want to think a different way to see where it takes you, jsut do it. You are asolutely right this will take practice and discipline. Considering it an "Oath" that you have to take does give it a LOT more mental weight than just, "Ok, I'm doing this now until I get bored, forget it, etc.", and could make it easier to stick with, or focus on. Is this mental weighting necessary though? It's an agreement with yourself, and no cult, group, or otherwise is going to come along and smack you with a stick if you forget to think of everything in context of said oath for a minute. If the idea (at least IMHO), is self development, then no one else can expect it of you or force you into it. Crowley isn't going to rise from his grave to waggle a finger at you.
"Try it, see how it works for you, and back off if you need a breather, if you forget or lapse out of it, pick up again when you remember", is my usual approach. My head, my rules, I jsut don't see the purpose of dressing it up funny and dubbing it "Of the Abyss".
The bolded bit pretty much covers it. The oath is made between you and yourself or whichever token deity you adhere to. The act of oathing is much more convoluted and symbolic than just saying "I promise" the oathmaking process in itself should be considered a mental primer.
QuoteI jsut don't see the purpose of dressing it up funny and dubbing it "Of the Abyss".
Props, some people need/want them.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 25, 2010, 05:44:26 PM
QuoteI jsut don't see the purpose of dressing it up funny and dubbing it "Of the Abyss".
Props, some people need/want them.
Fair enough. I forgot I was in a discussion predisposed towards the paradigm of ritual majdique for a moment there.
Quote from: Richter on June 25, 2010, 06:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 25, 2010, 05:44:26 PM
QuoteI jsut don't see the purpose of dressing it up funny and dubbing it "Of the Abyss".
Props, some people need/want them.
Fair enough. I forgot I was in a discussion predisposed towards the paradigm of ritual majdique for a moment there.
Even if not in ritual magic... people use props a lot to help them deal with stuff. It's the Linus' Blanket
TM effect ;-)
Our brains work by associating tokens with values. You want to fuck with your brain? Quickest way is to feed it some new tokens and values.
I just really hope this thread doesn't become a props/no-props argument, because it's pretty interesting so far.
Quote from: Kai on June 27, 2010, 01:17:27 AM
I just really hope this thread doesn't become a props/no-props argument, because it's pretty interesting so far.
this!
The age old problem with magique being that dressing up in silly hats and prancing about in circles chanting gobbledygook is prolly not the best image to win hearts and minds. Same reason I don't "do" it tbh. I'd feel like a dick, standing around with a bunch of people in fancy dress pretending god is real. Same reason I don't do roleplaying games now that I think about it - I have a 'cool threshold' which I will simply will not allow my meat puppet to fall below. I realise this is a personal weakness but it's also a strength - I gets me teh poontang :ECH:
Strange, despite being explained in the context or ritual madjick, the oath seems to involve moving towards viewing things UN influenced by interpretation, framework, or explanation. Almost want to say it's cultivating a "Prop-less" view. What do you all think?
I think that sounds about right. The props that ritualists use are only ever a means to an end. Adeptus is, pretty much, the end so it stands to reason that the means will be no longer required.
Quote from: Richter on June 27, 2010, 02:57:26 PM
Strange, despite being explained in the context or ritual madjick, the oath seems to involve moving towards viewing things UN influenced by interpretation, framework, or explanation. Almost want to say it's cultivating a "Prop-less" view. What do you all think?
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 27, 2010, 04:33:37 PM
I think that sounds about right. The props that ritualists use are only ever a means to an end. Adeptus is, pretty much, the end so it stands to reason that the means will be no longer required.
I would disagree. The Adeptus is not the end its simply the last degree before the Abyss. On the other side of the Abyss you become the Magister Templi which is the initial grade on the other side of the Abyss (3rd). This is tied to Binah (Mother, Moon). After that there is the second degree of Magus tied to Chokmah (Wisdom) and then the first degree is the one that starts with the letter I and I don't remember how to spell it (Ipsiss something) which is tied to Kether (Crown, God (sorta)).
If you consider the Kabbalah from the GD/Thelemic perspective you have the Source at the top (Kether), could be pure energy, God, the thing that makes everything. Since the Ipsiss level of attainment is basically the Pure Self... some interpret this metaphor to mean that the Magician is the Source, ala "Who is the great Magician that makes the grass green?". Kether spills out its light/power (Kether is also related to the Crown Chakra) into Chokhmah, the 'Potential of What Is'. This is tied to the right side of the brain, as well as the Hebrew belief that God worked through 'The Word' or 'The Firstborn of All Creation' to create everything else. Kether The Father, Chokhmah, the Father's Force being crafted into Potential. This then crosses to Binah, Mother/Womb/Reciever and Creator. These three Spheres sit on the top of the Kabbalistic tree on the 'other side' of the Void. So the Source flows into the Potential which then impregnates Binah with this potential and Binah thus gives birth to that which is below, the Intent/Potential made manifest. You could interpret it as the Egyptian trinity of the Father, Son, Mother, or the Christian Father, Son, Holy Ghost...
Taking the Oath of the Void means that you are separating yourself from the metaphors used by the "Man in Malkuth" (the pedestrian 'normal' human that has no higher attainment and really, really for real believes that X is God) or the Man in Tipheroth (who perceives the metaphor of God, but still needs that metaphor).
The symbols and Props are all still a part of the system. Crossing the Void is the removal of interpretation, or assigning labels to 'whatever' Kether 'really is'. Interestingly, Crowley taught that there were three paths to ascend the Tree of Life. The Right Hand Path, The Left Hand Path, or a Path that intersects all of the Spheres. The Right Hand Path means understanding the Spheres on the Right side (ascending the Tree of Life through only the Spheres on the Right) and the Left Hand Path is obviously the opposite. Crowley claimed that you couldn't cross the Void if you took either of these Paths, but instead you must take the third way. Those who dive into the Void without understanding the Left and the Right will fail and become what Crowley calls 'The Black Brothers'.
So just getting to the Veil requires a deep immersion in a set of symbols/props. If you are at the point of Crossing the Veil, you are deeply steeped in the system, because that series of models/metaphors/symbols/props are what keep you sane once you dive into the Abyss. There are many layers to the Magical System of Thelema or the GD. Crossing the Veil means abandoning the model of labels like "God" and looking instead to a Source. Depending on how you eventually interpret the overall model, it may be that the final attainment is that you understand that 'Thou Art God'. The Magus becomes One With Kether attaining the grade of Ipsissimus (found the spelling!!) the superlative of Self... His Selfness is kinda the interpretation. Others claim that you gain Union with the Trinity of Sephiroth. (The Source, the Potential and the Receiver).
Now, depending on how one interprets Crowley's intent, we might see 'crossing the veil' as realizing the Self of the Magician. That is Kether becomes the Will of the Magician, Chokhmah becomes the Intent to Manifest the Will and Binah becomes the act of Creation by the Magician. With the Right side of the Tree and Left side of the Tree becoming the Right and Left side of the Mind. (not necessarily the physical brain)... making the whole trip a discovery of Self.
However, even the "Man in Kether" the Ipsissimus Himself may well use a Chalice, Dagger, Wand etc. Or he may simply use hand gestures or may use meditation and visualize his rituals... Casting off the metaphor of God is a bit different than casting off the psychological tools being used to manipulate the consciousness.
Also, its important to realize that neither the GD nor the Thelemic system see any of this as 'an end'. The initiation never ends, the Magus will always be learning more and gaining new understanding.
Please note, I'm not arguing that 'props' are necessary.... but they are a part of the Traditions related to crossing the Void and are used by those who have taken the Oath, within those systems.
:)
EDIT: The observant Magician will also realize that the Three Spheres at the top appear to have a strong sexual connotation. Kether, The Man and Binah, The Woman joined through Chokhmah the Act of Potential... making the whole thing also a metaphor for human reproduction... cause magical systems are ridiculously layered like that ;-)
It almost sounds like another way of approaching Tao. I'm not conversant in Thelema or Kabalakh though, so this may not be as accurate as it sounds in my head.
Quote from: Richter on June 28, 2010, 05:49:44 PM
It almost sounds like another way of approaching Tao. I'm not conversant in Thelema or Kabalakh though, so this may not be as accurate as it sounds in my head.
Crowley was very interested in Eastern belief. He has his own translation of the Tao Teh King http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib157.htm and seemed profoundly interested in their concepts as compared to the Western Christian ones.
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 24, 2010, 06:11:54 PM
Thelema is simply a reality tunnel, designed on purpose with the purpose being ... well we all know the purpose of Thelema, right?
no?
only reason I know about it was for the purpose of reading about spagging around with occult symbolism?
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 24, 2010, 07:27:00 PM
Quote from: Richter on June 24, 2010, 06:54:34 PM
I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.
Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join. They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.
Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.
Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/
on the brighter side, it means he'll be motivated, and therefore more likely to get something out of it?
Quote from: Richter on June 27, 2010, 02:57:26 PM
Strange, despite being explained in the context or ritual madjick, the oath seems to involve moving towards viewing things UN influenced by interpretation, framework, or explanation. Almost want to say it's cultivating a "Prop-less" view. What do you all think?
So, it's more like scaffolding.
Not really challenging anything, I have some questions,
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 28, 2010, 04:10:15 PM
If you consider the Kabbalah from the GD/Thelemic perspective you have the Source at the top (Kether), could be pure energy, God, the thing that makes everything.
"pure" energy ... is it not more like the malloc() just before the instantiation of a new datastructure?
QuoteSince the Ipsiss level of attainment is basically the Pure Self... some interpret this metaphor to mean that the Magician is the Source, ala "Who is the great Magician that makes the grass green?". Kether spills out its light/power (Kether is also related to the Crown Chakra) into Chokhmah, the 'Potential of What Is'. This is tied to the right side of the brain, as well as the Hebrew belief that God worked through 'The Word' or 'The Firstborn of All Creation' to create everything else. Kether The Father, Chokhmah, the Father's Force being crafted into Potential. This then crosses to Binah, Mother/Womb/Reciever and Creator. These three Spheres sit on the top of the Kabbalistic tree on the 'other side' of the Void. So the Source flows into the Potential which then impregnates Binah with this potential and Binah thus gives birth to that which is below, the Intent/Potential made manifest. You could interpret it as the Egyptian trinity of the Father, Son, Mother, or the Christian Father, Son, Holy Ghost...
ah I love this sort of--pardon me--occult wanking :lol:
no seriously. I read "the mystical qabalah", which was full of this sort of shit and it brought me great joy and framework.
but hey, isn't the Magician between Kether and Binah? A shortcut skipping Chokmah [Wisdom]?
QuoteThe symbols and Props are all still a part of the system. Crossing the Void is the removal of interpretation, or assigning labels to 'whatever' Kether 'really is'. Interestingly, Crowley taught that there were three paths to ascend the Tree of Life. The Right Hand Path, The Left Hand Path, or a Path that intersects all of the Spheres. The Right Hand Path means understanding the Spheres on the Right side (ascending the Tree of Life through only the Spheres on the Right) and the Left Hand Path is obviously the opposite.
From which point of view is this Left/Right? (it depends cause from the personal point, and afaik in the Tarot, the Tree is mirrored?)
So is the Left Hand Path the feminine, Pillar of Severity, or is it the masculine, Pillar of Mercy?
QuoteNow, depending on how one interprets Crowley's intent, we might see 'crossing the veil' as realizing the Self of the Magician. That is Kether becomes the Will of the Magician, Chokhmah becomes the Intent to Manifest the Will and Binah becomes the act of Creation by the Magician.
What is the difference between the Will, and the Intent to Manifest?
in my knowledge of English, Will and Intent sort of mean the same thing?
QuoteEDIT: The observant Magician will also realize that the Three Spheres at the top appear to have a strong sexual connotation. Kether, The Man and Binah, The Woman joined through Chokhmah the Act of Potential... making the whole thing also a metaphor for human reproduction... cause magical systems are ridiculously layered like that ;-)
Um, isn't it Chokmah that represents the Man? As the force/explosion/ejaculation? And Binah that represents the Woman, as the recepticle/womb/shaper?
So Kether-Chokmah-Binah would be more like God-Adam-Eve ?
At least that's the way I always took the symbols.
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 08, 2010, 12:56:33 PM
Quote from: Richter on June 27, 2010, 02:57:26 PM
Strange, despite being explained in the context or ritual madjick, the oath seems to involve moving towards viewing things UN influenced by interpretation, framework, or explanation. Almost want to say it's cultivating a "Prop-less" view. What do you all think?
So, it's more like scaffolding.
Scaffolding is there to enable an individual building design to take shape. My problem with ritual magic, why I walked away when introduced to it years ago, is that it looked to be more of a template - a scaffolding that forces all buildings to look similar.
I was promised all sorts "uncommunicable truths" and the like, but I couldn't figure out how you could ever separate that objectively from past ritual experiences, especially if they come from interconnected ritual. Once you take a big step to
believe in a god or demon - that has to have a profound effect on your psyche - can you later fully separate that by a simple choice when you are trying to perceive with as few influences as possible? I don't know, but I erred on the side of caution then, and would make the same decision now.
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 08, 2010, 01:50:05 PM
Not really challenging anything, I have some questions,
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 28, 2010, 04:10:15 PM
If you consider the Kabbalah from the GD/Thelemic perspective you have the Source at the top (Kether), could be pure energy, God, the thing that makes everything.
"pure" energy ... is it not more like the malloc() just before the instantiation of a new datastructure?
Hrmmm, possibly.. If we consider the allocation of memory to be the stuff that the application uses to create...
If we think of E=MC
2 ie energy converts to matter... thats a bit more like what they're driving at.... if you deconstruct physical reality to its most basic core that is Kether... If you want to tie it to science, you could almost consider it like the singularity that spawned the Big Bang. Of course, this is all metaphysical since the Magician is trying to 'get to' Kether and they obviously can't get to the singularity. ;-)
Quote
QuoteSince the Ipsiss level of attainment is basically the Pure Self... some interpret this metaphor to mean that the Magician is the Source, ala "Who is the great Magician that makes the grass green?". Kether spills out its light/power (Kether is also related to the Crown Chakra) into Chokhmah, the 'Potential of What Is'. This is tied to the right side of the brain, as well as the Hebrew belief that God worked through 'The Word' or 'The Firstborn of All Creation' to create everything else. Kether The Father, Chokhmah, the Father's Force being crafted into Potential. This then crosses to Binah, Mother/Womb/Reciever and Creator. These three Spheres sit on the top of the Kabbalistic tree on the 'other side' of the Void. So the Source flows into the Potential which then impregnates Binah with this potential and Binah thus gives birth to that which is below, the Intent/Potential made manifest. You could interpret it as the Egyptian trinity of the Father, Son, Mother, or the Christian Father, Son, Holy Ghost...
ah I love this sort of--pardon me--occult wanking :lol:
no seriously. I read "the mystical qabalah", which was full of this sort of shit and it brought me great joy and framework.
but hey, isn't the Magician between Kether and Binah? A shortcut skipping Chokmah [Wisdom]?
Yep, mystical wankery at its best ;-)
The interpretation of the Qabalah depends greatly on the system (Jewish vs Thelemic vs GD vs *other western traditions*). Crowley felt it was necessary to pass through all of the spheres to achieve Kether, Wisdom being one of those.
Quote
QuoteThe symbols and Props are all still a part of the system. Crossing the Void is the removal of interpretation, or assigning labels to 'whatever' Kether 'really is'. Interestingly, Crowley taught that there were three paths to ascend the Tree of Life. The Right Hand Path, The Left Hand Path, or a Path that intersects all of the Spheres. The Right Hand Path means understanding the Spheres on the Right side (ascending the Tree of Life through only the Spheres on the Right) and the Left Hand Path is obviously the opposite.
From which point of view is this Left/Right? (it depends cause from the personal point, and afaik in the Tarot, the Tree is mirrored?)
So is the Left Hand Path the feminine, Pillar of Severity, or is it the masculine, Pillar of Mercy?
Again, it depends... The Theosophists used the term as a 'Good Magic/Bad Magic' kind of duality. Crowley's intent, I believe was to stress the necessity of crossing all of the spheres. In Thelemic Magic there are 22 possible paths or ways to ascend the tree. Only the paths that cross all Pillars will allow the Magician to cast aside the ego and survive his dive into the Void.
So in his system, we have the Pillar of Severity (Boaz), The Pillar of Balance (Middle Pillar) and The Pillar of Mercy (Jachin).
Those who follow the Left Hand Path try to climb the Pillar of Severity, its associated with quick access to power, but it feeds the ego, rather than allowing it to be cast off... so when the Magician dives into the Void, he is washed up on the shore as a Black Brother. Those who follow the Right Hand Path climb only the Pillar of Mercy and suffer as well... though Crowley doesn't really go as hard on them as he does on the Left.
Liber 777 which covers a lot of the Correspondences also represents lightning
7
7
7
Like that... of course it also represents the zig-zag path crossing each of the pillars.
Quote
QuoteNow, depending on how one interprets Crowley's intent, we might see 'crossing the veil' as realizing the Self of the Magician. That is Kether becomes the Will of the Magician, Chokhmah becomes the Intent to Manifest the Will and Binah becomes the act of Creation by the Magician.
What is the difference between the Will, and the Intent to Manifest?
in my knowledge of English, Will and Intent sort of mean the same thing?
Kinda. Certainly in modern English they are nearly analogous. For Crowley though 'Will' was more esoteric. It was not simply intent, but the quality that produces conscious and intended actions. Your 'True Will' didn't simply mean 'your intentions', but the intentions that you are truly meant to have... So when he says 'Do as thou Will' he is saying that the Law is to do your True Will, the conscious, intended action that is in line with the Universe.
Peter Carroll explained it like Surfing. You cannot surf against the current, but if you're skilled you can surf with or across the current/waves. If we consider the Universe as the ocean, moving in a specific, unstoppable direction... the Magician with his True Will is like the surfer with his surfboard... he can make conscious/intended actions that are in line with the direction of the universe.
So its quite philosophical... somewhere between Free Will and Destiny... if you are skilled you can choose your actions to some extent. You could even say its your Will that allows you to remodel your Black Iron Prison Cell.
Quote
QuoteEDIT: The observant Magician will also realize that the Three Spheres at the top appear to have a strong sexual connotation. Kether, The Man and Binah, The Woman joined through Chokhmah the Act of Potential... making the whole thing also a metaphor for human reproduction... cause magical systems are ridiculously layered like that ;-)
Um, isn't it Chokmah that represents the Man? As the force/explosion/ejaculation? And Binah that represents the Woman, as the recepticle/womb/shaper?
So Kether-Chokmah-Binah would be more like God-Adam-Eve ?
At least that's the way I always took the symbols.
It can be interpreted that way. This stuff is layered and it depends on which books you read ;-)
Kether can be the Source/God/Where it all came from and Chokmah can be the Intent, with Binah as the womb/mother/manifestation.
It can all represent three aspects of the magician True Will -> Intent - > Action
It can represent God -> Adam -> Eve in a Jewish interpretation
It can represent The Trinity ->YHVH->Virgin Mary in Christian theology
Ptah ->thoth->Isis in Egyptian
Man ->act of Sex->Woman in the Rosicrucian interpretation
etc etc etc... In fact Liber 777 tries to correlate all of the different religious symbols to aspects of the Tree of Life. Crowley kind of saw his Tree of Life as the basis from which religion built its theology. Kind of like the most simple metaphor, upon which lots of stuff was added.
But the overall idea is that WHATEVER your creation concept is... it likely involves those three spheres. There's Something, it gives power to a Something with intent which impregnates a Something that can create Form from the Intent.
Remember, Crowley considered his 'magical system' to be scientific in nature*. So he saw this as the scientific distillation of religion... all of the metaphors of different religions (in his eyes) corresponded with each other and his Tree of Life was the output of that correspondence. In the beginning of Book 4 he argues that there exists in history a repeating pattern... Some dude disappears into the wilderness, weird shit happens and POP he comes back, has talked to God and becomes a revolutionary spiritual figure. Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, etc. For Crowley, that meant that SOMETHING happened/could happen, and it would be interpreted by the person it happened to, to fit with their existing world view. His aim was to scientifically explain that process though correspondence and deconstruction. The Tree of Life was an output of that study.
Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 08, 2010, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 08, 2010, 12:56:33 PM
Quote from: Richter on June 27, 2010, 02:57:26 PM
Strange, despite being explained in the context or ritual madjick, the oath seems to involve moving towards viewing things UN influenced by interpretation, framework, or explanation. Almost want to say it's cultivating a "Prop-less" view. What do you all think?
So, it's more like scaffolding.
Scaffolding is there to enable an individual building design to take shape. My problem with ritual magic, why I walked away when introduced to it years ago, is that it looked to be more of a template - a scaffolding that forces all buildings to look similar.
I was promised all sorts "uncommunicable truths" and the like, but I couldn't figure out how you could ever separate that objectively from past ritual experiences, especially if they come from interconnected ritual. Once you take a big step to believe in a god or demon - that has to have a profound effect on your psyche - can you later fully separate that by a simple choice when you are trying to perceive with as few influences as possible? I don't know, but I erred on the side of caution then, and would make the same decision now.
Meh, systems that make promises often seem too caught up in their own metaphors. I tried a few of them and abandoned them for the same reasons you state (including Thelema). However, thats why I found Chaos Magic to be a far better system for me to play with. They begin with the assumption that demons, gods, etc are all metaphors for stuff that can't be easily processed on its own. If Crowley were alive today, based on his writings, it seems likely that he would be closer to Chaos Magic than Thelema, simply because Thelema takes Crowley/Regardie's work as verbatim... whereas Chaos Magic prefers to continue the deconstruction process.
Some of my friends that practice Chaos Magic use metaphors that are, on their face ridiculous. I have been part of rituals that call on superheroes rather than Guardian Angels... and for some people it becomes much easier to see Batman, Superman, Iron Man etc. as metaphors rather than Raphael, Michael, Gabriel etc.
CM also heavily encourages either using meaningless metaphors (ie. terms that don't already have baggage) or switching metaphors regularly. Peter Carroll talks a lot about using dice to figure out which system you're going to use for that week/month.
In the end though, I don't regularly practice any system... I did for awhile, I learned a lot about what I thought was happening and that sort of satisfied me. Occasionally, though I still create and engage in ritual, particularly if its a special occasion or if I've got some specific goal in mind. If nothing else, the process of creating the ritual and the metaphors cause you to deconstruct your intent... kind of like working out an upcoming project on a Gantt chart. Maybe that's a bad metaphor...
* We place no reliance on Virgin or Pigeon, our method is Science, our aim is Religion.