I'm not sure if this is the correct board for this, but it seemed like the most appropriate.
I'm still new to Discordianism. I actually just finished reading the PD about a week ago, but something about it just clicked with me, which is why I'm here.
Very long and personal story short, I grew up as a conservative Christian. I was never an asshole about it, but I was incredibly devout. And then I had something traumatic happen to me that completely shattered my entire faith system, my trust in the elders of my church, and my relationships with my family.
I try to laugh about it now.
Anyways, after that, I started bouncing around from belief system to belief system, but I was never able to find anything that really felt right for me. And even though I left Christianity several years ago, bits of it are still in my subconscious and pop up from time to time. Mostly the guilt and occasional bits of fear.
And then I stumbled on the PD.
My first reaction after reading it was "Wow, the universe really is totally chaotic and blindly holding onto any sort of concrete belief system is totally ridiculous. :mrgreen:" And after my experiences with "The Church" (which I'm still trying to work through), it was really, genuinely liberating.
But then, that quickly turned in to "Oh shit, the universe is totally chaotic and blindly holding onto any sort of concrete belief system is totally ridiculous :aaa:"
SO WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GETTING AT, DISCOUKULELE???
Letting go of a religion/worldview/whatever is incredibly liberating, but it's also pretty hard, honestly. If you've managed to do it, how did you do it? And how do you keep it from clinging on to the back of your mind?
Eating a Hot Dog on a Friday seems like it'd be a fun ritual, but I was never Catholic, so I don't think it would work :(
Well, DU, I can only tell you about my personal experience. I was introduced to Discordianism by Doktor Howl. The thing you have to be careful of, he told me back when TGRR was alive, was how quickly your eyes get opened to The Truth, which is a horrible thing. Or maybe it was the Weird, I can't really remember.
Anyway. Once you realize how bad things are (and on this board, it's pretty much a certainty you're going to get a good look at precisely how bad things are), you won't have much trouble getting on with your life without all that religion stuff.
Welcome to the Age of Horror, please turn your head and cough.
I too used to be a Christian, because I was brought up in that environment. But I quickly became disillusioned with all the superstition and self-righteousness. It certainly is a weight off one's back to not worry about following all the prescribed rules and regulations, being smote for sodomy, or having to listen to all the goddamn insipid acoustic guitar music inherent to the religion.
I guess it's easy for me to forget about it because I never really believed in it in the first place.
Now, the way I think about it, the origin of things and the belief systems built up from that don't really matter.
Some people need a Sky Daddy or the belief in the invisible and immortal soul to validate their existences.
But for me, it doesn't change my life. Whether or no we're soulless meatbags, merely trillions of subtly vibrating parts doesn't change anything. We still feel what we feel; love, anger, despair. Icecream is still delicious. Life is still worth living.
And I'm perfectly content to know that when I die, every bit of me will eventually return to the continuum from whence I came, decomposed and deconstructed. Everything in the universe shares the same fate.
I'm comfortable with this outlook, so it's easy to not look back.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted... I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad experience, Disco... I had a bad experience with the church, but it likely wasn't as bad as yours, I was merely rejected for being psychotic... This is my second post, btw, so I really carry no weight in this community and can, in no way, represent them... But I am an independent practitioner of All Kinds Of Shit, and while I like company, company doesn't much like me... I don't know.
Changing your belief system is hard at first, but being able to shift paradigms is essential to understanding reality... It's like a muscle you never used before, you're going to have to work to build it up, but, once you do, it'll be easy.
please to define psychotic....
I was raised in a conservative Christian family as well and had a similar experience to yours. What I have found appealing about Discordianism is that it becomes your responsibility to select your reality. Life is Meaningless we're all fucked; Life Is Meaningless, Let's Have Fun; Life Might Be Meaningless, But I Can Give Mine Meaning; Life Has Meaning, Its The Act of Experience... etc etc there are many, many ways to interpret it.
For me, I've found myself in all of those views from time to time... and after a decade of poking my brain with a stick I've come to enjoy the freedom and responsibility that comes with driving your own destiny. I got through it my forcing my brain into a number of different systems and seeing what happened. From time to time I still get a surprising pop from the past, but the 'Cosmic Schmuck' concept applies nicely.
QuoteThe Cosmic Schmuck Principle holds that if you don't wake up, once a month at least, and realize that you have been acting like a Cosmic Schmuck again then you will probably go on acting like a cosmic schmuck forever; but if you do, occasionally, recognize your Cosmic Schmuckiness, then you might begin to become a little less Schmucky that the general human average at this primitive stage of terrestrial evolution.
Any religion that you are raised in, creates programs and imprints that may be impossible to completely erase. So it might be that sometimes, the best we can do is identify these programs when they pop up and deal with them. Becoming conscious of your programming is a big step.
For some people that are used to religion, various 'magical' systems are helpful, for others the more materialistic 'metaprogramming' concepts work better... either way, its about taking control of your brain.
"Think For Yourself, Schmuck!" (thinking for oneself can be scary, liberating, paralyzing, ecstatic and confusing... but it can still be a hell of a lot of fun). :fnord:
QuoteLetting go of a religion/worldview/whatever is incredibly liberating, but it's also pretty hard, honestly. If you've managed to do it, how did you do it? And how do you keep it from clinging on to the back of your mind?
Great post, welcome aboard!
I was raised religious. In a parallel universe I am a pretty devout Christian. Seriously, if I hadn't found Taoism and Discordjia, there's a good change I would have been a priest or something.
I think my worldview was most drastically shifted by taoism, which led to a sense of stillness and moral relativism which I found much more sensible than accordance with christian dogma. And I followed the Tao pretty closely for a while, but found it really hard to stay detached from a world filled with such constant fascinating stimulus.
Then I read the
Principia and I was sold. Eris had me on the first day, hook line and sinker.
It's only gotten weirder since then.
I was raised Baptist. Not the Southern kind, the NorthEast kind. At least the music is better in the Southern kind. Anyhoo, I actually gave up the Baptist thing when I was 13. My grandmother passed away, not too long after being baptised. Baptists don't get baptised at birth like Catholics and other strains of Christianity. You can't do that, or communion, until you are ready. You are taught that if you do it wrong/too early that you piss of God. Anyhoo, I was very close to my Grandmother who was quite the character. Always laughing and joking around. And when she passed, and people kept telling me, "Well, God does everything for a reason", that was pretty much when I said "see you later" to Christianity.
So I'd pretty much been aereligious since then. Not really atheist or agnostic, just, not anything. What's funny is I was turned onto Discordianism by a Christian. This guy I worked with back in the Retail Hell days. He let me borrow the PD for a trip I was taking to New York and I read the thing like 5 times or something. It really resonated. It was stuff I realized I always believed in, even when I was a Christian. So, it was like I was always a Discordian, I just didn't have a label for those thoughts, feelings and beliefs.
But I don't think of Discordianism too literally as a religion. It's more of a philosophy for me.
Thanks a lot for the responses so far.
Quote from: RWHN on June 28, 2010, 04:47:31 PM
I was raised Baptist. Not the Southern kind, the NorthEast kind. At least the music is better in the Southern kind....You are taught that if you do it wrong/too early that you piss of God.
Haha, I was raised Southern Baptist. You know, the
real kind. They certainly know how to put the fear of God in you. I used to have pretty vivid nightmares about hell all the time. :|
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 28, 2010, 04:30:00 PM
I was raised in a conservative Christian family as well and had a similar experience to yours. What I have found appealing about Discordianism is that it becomes your responsibility to select your reality. Life is Meaningless we're all fucked; Life Is Meaningless, Let's Have Fun; Life Might Be Meaningless, But I Can Give Mine Meaning; Life Has Meaning, Its The Act of Experience... etc etc there are many, many ways to interpret it.
For me, I've found myself in all of those views from time to time... and after a decade of poking my brain with a stick I've come to enjoy the freedom and responsibility that comes with driving your own destiny. I got through it my forcing my brain into a number of different systems and seeing what happened. From time to time I still get a surprising pop from the past, but the 'Cosmic Schmuck' concept applies nicely.
QuoteThe Cosmic Schmuck Principle holds that if you don't wake up, once a month at least, and realize that you have been acting like a Cosmic Schmuck again then you will probably go on acting like a cosmic schmuck forever; but if you do, occasionally, recognize your Cosmic Schmuckiness, then you might begin to become a little less Schmucky that the general human average at this primitive stage of terrestrial evolution.
Any religion that you are raised in, creates programs and imprints that may be impossible to completely erase. So it might be that sometimes, the best we can do is identify these programs when they pop up and deal with them. Becoming conscious of your programming is a big step.
For some people that are used to religion, various 'magical' systems are helpful, for others the more materialistic 'metaprogramming' concepts work better... either way, its about taking control of your brain.
"Think For Yourself, Schmuck!" (thinking for oneself can be scary, liberating, paralyzing, ecstatic and confusing... but it can still be a hell of a lot of fun). :fnord:
Thanks for this. I really like that. :)
Quote from: Nast on June 28, 2010, 05:58:39 AM
I too used to be a Christian, because I was brought up in that environment. But I quickly became disillusioned with all the superstition and self-righteousness. It certainly is a weight off one's back to not worry about following all the prescribed rules and regulations, being smote for sodomy, or having to listen to all the goddamn insipid acoustic guitar music inherent to the religion.
haha yeah, this is precisely what the issue was. My church was very much a "God gives gay people AIDS and sends them to Hell" kinda place, and after I was outted to my family, the church talked my parents into putting me through "ex-gay" therapy. Which, even though the whole thing was totally ridiculous and pretty funny now, it certainly left me pretty neurotic. :argh!:
I think I'm going to read the PD a few more times and take this whole thing a bit slower.
Anyways, thanks again :)
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 28, 2010, 08:49:22 AM
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
It is?
That's the most horrible thing I've heard all day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 28, 2010, 08:49:22 AM
Nothing is true, everything is permitted... I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad experience, Disco... I had a bad experience with the church, but it likely wasn't as bad as yours, I was merely rejected for being psychotic... This is my second post, btw, so I really carry no weight in this community and can, in no way, represent them... But I am an independent practitioner of All Kinds Of Shit, and while I like company, company doesn't much like me... Might have something to do with being a lunatic, I don't know.
Changing your belief system is hard at first, but being able to shift paradigms is essential to understanding reality... It's like a muscle you never used before, you're going to have to work to build it up, but, once you do, it'll be easy.
Oh, dear...Another "psychotic".
*yawn*
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on June 28, 2010, 05:46:44 AM
Well, DU, I can only tell you about my personal experience. I was introduced to Discordianism by Doktor Howl. The thing you have to be careful of, he told me back when TGRR was alive, was how quickly your eyes get opened to The Truth, which is a horrible thing. Or maybe it was the Weird, I can't really remember.
Anyway. Once you realize how bad things are (and on this board, it's pretty much a certainty you're going to get a good look at precisely how bad things are), you won't have much trouble getting on with your life without all that religion stuff.
Welcome to the Age of Horror, please turn your head and cough.
TGRR was a bad influence on all of us, and I'm glad the bastard's dead. He upper-decked my friend's toilet one Friday night. Just for kicks.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 06:01:21 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 28, 2010, 08:49:22 AM
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
It is?
That's the most horrible thing I've heard all day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust
I find the term is often misused out of context.
Nothing is True (in the context) indicates that no one thing is True for ALL. No two cells in the Black Iron Prison are identical. No two views from the prison window are identical.
Everything is Permissible to YOURSELF. IE Non Servim, Think For Yourself, Schmuck, Remodel your BIP.
I think in the translation to English, it loses a lot of its meaning.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 28, 2010, 06:23:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 06:01:21 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 28, 2010, 08:49:22 AM
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
It is?
That's the most horrible thing I've heard all day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust
I find the term is often misused out of context.
Nothing is True (in the context) indicates that no one thing is True for ALL. No two cells in the Black Iron Prison are identical. No two views from the prison window are identical.
Everything is Permissible to YOURSELF. IE Non Servim, Think For Yourself, Schmuck, Remodel your BIP.
I think in the translation to English, it loses a lot of its meaning.
So doing evil is okay, so long as you do it by yourself?
Considering Cain more or less demonstrated that Hassan i Sabbah never even said that in the first place, one might think they could make up a better non-translation.
Quote from: LMNO on June 28, 2010, 06:25:41 PM
Considering Cain more or less demonstrated that Hassan i Sabbah never even said that in the first place, one might think they could make up a better non-translation.
Misattributed quotes are still quotes.
Or words to that effect. :lulz:
Well played, sir. Two points to the Doktor.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 06:25:31 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 28, 2010, 06:23:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 06:01:21 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 28, 2010, 08:49:22 AM
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
It is?
That's the most horrible thing I've heard all day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust
I find the term is often misused out of context.
Nothing is True (in the context) indicates that no one thing is True for ALL. No two cells in the Black Iron Prison are identical. No two views from the prison window are identical.
Everything is Permissible to YOURSELF. IE Non Servim, Think For Yourself, Schmuck, Remodel your BIP.
I think in the translation to English, it loses a lot of its meaning.
So doing evil is okay, so long as you do it by yourself?
It's not saying that its OK... thats the translation problem.
It means that there is nothing STOPPING you from being evil. You can choose to be evil if you want to. The part that is being focused on is that the CHOICE is yours.
Quote from: LMNO on June 28, 2010, 06:25:41 PM
Considering Cain more or less demonstrated that Hassan i Sabbah never even said that in the first place, one might think they could make up a better non-translation.
Heh, yeah, well you can thank bad 19th century 'historians' for that ;-)
The problem I see is that in a broader context the term is useful... but its so often quoted in a poor context to make it nearly useless. Crowley "Do as Thou Will" is very similar both in its intent and in its misunderstanding.
"Do as Thou Will" doesn't mean "Do what the fuck you want, no one gives a shit". The student first has to understand 'Will'... which based on what Crowley wrote and taught it means your "true purpose". In the system where the term fits, we all have our True Purpose, our existence in line with the movement of the Universe... and the 'Law' of Thelema is to find that True Purpose and live it, which is very different from "Do whatever you want". (Note that True Purpose is not fate, but more about 'YOUR' purpose, rather than what others expect your purpose to be)
I personally think both terms have been superseded by the more modern interpretation "Think for Yourself, Schmuck!"
Wait.
19th century historians? Which ones?
I don't give a damn WHAT it means, I just think it sounds cool.
*flute solo*
EDIT: Actually, thanks for the explanation, I really appreciate it. Makes sense that way. I always kind of figured it meant the material world is deceptive in nature and that the limitations placed on us by authority figures and the law are illusory... "Think for yourself, schmuk." strikes me as more efficient and to the point, though, doesn't sound as cool.
EDIT EDIT: Or perhaps it means "Your head is full of shit, fucktard, you can never know anything of value, so go out there and do whatever strikes you as important, because it's all going to end the same way anyway."...?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 09:47:13 PM
Wait.
19th century historians? Which ones?
Same ones that gave us 'Chivalry' ;-)
Also, I had no idea until recently that Bushido was pretty much bullshit as well... not only Bullshit but bullshit from the early 20th century and it was swallowed so well that the Emperor of Japan used it to push troops and kamikaze fighters less than 50 years after the term had been mangled into the "Fall on my sword" idea.
Hell, until I really started studying history I had no idea how free most "serfs" were during the Middle Ages. I mean, in some ways they had more freedom than the average Joe today. Obviously they also had some pretty crazy restrictions that we don't have today, but it wasn't the wallowing in filth, can't feed my family, can't read/think/do anything sort of stereotype that we think of when we hear Serf.
History, a combination of made up bullshit and troof... and its hard to tell which is which. :lulz:
ETA: Though for Hassan specifically I think we can go back a bit further to the 12th Century and Marco Polo. I don't recall if he was responsible for the first Western repeat of the Everything is Permissible quote or not. There was a novel in the 1930's which terribly abused the quote (book was called Alamut). However, it predates the book... but I don't recall exactly when it got recorded as TRUE. I know William Burroughs also used the quote as did Nietzsche.
Have a reputable link to any of this? Because, as far as I know, RAW made it all up?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 11:05:22 PM
Have a reputable link to any of this? Because, as far as I know, RAW made it all up?
Marco Polo wrote about Hassan I Sabbah and the Assassins and Alamut and the whole 'Garden' story in his book "The Travels of Marco Polo"
http://books.google.com/books?id=zYvVAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Travels+of+Marco+Polo&source=bl&ots=qc7ubpAhpP&sig=6ZLs-GC2FfgsIOVWpjKlUp7efGM&hl=en&ei=7SopTMyZFoL48Ab2s8ChAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCg#v=snippet&q=paradise&f=false
Page 200
QuoteXVIII On the Castle of the Old Man of tho Mountain and how he trained and employed his Assassins You shall learn all about the Old Man of the Mountain as I Marco heard related ...
How much of it is fact versus Marco Polo's stories? I don't know.
The quote doesn't appear in Polo's story. It does however appear in both Nietche:
Quote"Nothing is true, all is permitted": so said I to myself. Into the coldest water did I plunge with head and heart. Ah, how oft did I stand there naked on that account, like a red crab
The actual saying as tied to this though is only identified with William Burroughs and later cribbed by Uncle Bob.
http://tribes.tribe.net/burroughsinterzone/thread/9f20fe71-2f19-409c-954c-5a29343daaad
Sorry I didn't have time earlier for as much detail. Also, I had thought I read a reference to the earlier term in Arabic which had been translated into German in the 1800's... but I can't find it now.
Okay, I was just interested in whether or not it was a recent invention of RAW, et al.
Since Alamut had been levelled by the Mongols some decades before the time Marco Polo arrived (in fact, if he had tried that travel before the Great Khan had conquered most of Central Asia, the Middle East, China, the Caucasian Mountains and Russia, he'd have likely been hanged, waylaid by bandits or imprisoned several times over on such a trip) any information about the Assassins coming from Polo are to be treated with about as much credibilty as the writings of mainstream Muslim scholars on the group, ie not a lot.
Also, if you understand Nizari theology, then it is pretty obvious that the "nothing is forbidden" translation is the accurate one. The Nizari cult believed that when the end times were near, all rules which Muslims were bound to live by would be abolished. This is the Qiyamah doctrine, which was initiated by Sheikh Hasan 'ala Dhikrihi Al-Salam, and the likely origin of various stories about the Assassins and use of drugs, wine, women and beautiful gardens.
The thing is though, Hasan ibn al-Sabbah was himself a highly pious and austere Muslim, albeit of a heretical school, and would not have agreed with Hasan's interpretation of the end times. At least, not without Allah himself telling him it was alright. Therefore the attribution quote itself is almost certainly an invention, likely of 19th century British officers who were present in the Kingdom of Persia and carried out many excavations and explorations as part of the Great Game with Russia. Overwhelming British paranoia about both Russian intentions in the region and the perfidy of central Asian despots may have lead to appropriation of the later day Qiyamah doctrine in order to tar all Muslims with this exotic, yet untrustworthy label.
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 28, 2010, 08:49:22 AM
Nothing is true, everything is permitted... I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad experience, Disco... I had a bad experience with the church, but it likely wasn't as bad as yours, I was merely rejected for being psychotic... This is my second post, btw, so I really carry no weight in this community and can, in no way, represent them... But I am an independent practitioner of All Kinds Of Shit, and while I like company, company doesn't much like me... I don't know.
Changing your belief system is hard at first, but being able to shift paradigms is essential to understanding reality... It's like a muscle you never used before, you're going to have to work to build it up, but, once you do, it'll be easy.
Quote from: Rainy Day Pixie on June 28, 2010, 12:03:47 PM
please to define psychotic....
Here you go, his definition.
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=25622.msg891218#msg891218
I'm just trying to keep the clouds from coming.
Dude, it's hard to tell if you're trying to save me from a fate worse than death, or consign me to one, but I get the impression you are helping me, so, really, thanks... If it turns out to be different... Well, I'll kill you in your sleep... Still, you do your research, don't you?
Anyway, I've been lectured, I know I did wrong, I'm sorry *prays to the rain god*... Still, thanks a ton, it definitely looks like you're being nice from where I'm sitting.
MODIFY: Social structure is meaningless to me, but I deleted my rant out of consideration to the rest of you.
Quote from: Cain on June 29, 2010, 01:12:07 AM
Since Alamut had been levelled by the Mongols some decades before the time Marco Polo arrived (in fact, if he had tried that travel before the Great Khan had conquered most of Central Asia, the Middle East, China, the Caucasian Mountains and Russia, he'd have likely been hanged, waylaid by bandits or imprisoned several times over on such a trip) any information about the Assassins coming from Polo are to be treated with about as much credibilty as the writings of mainstream Muslim scholars on the group, ie not a lot.
Also, if you understand Nizari theology, then it is pretty obvious that the "nothing is forbidden" translation is the accurate one. The Nizari cult believed that when the end times were near, all rules which Muslims were bound to live by would be abolished. This is the Qiyamah doctrine, which was initiated by Sheikh Hasan 'ala Dhikrihi Al-Salam, and the likely origin of various stories about the Assassins and use of drugs, wine, women and beautiful gardens.
The thing is though, Hasan ibn al-Sabbah was himself a highly pious and austere Muslim, albeit of a heretical school, and would not have agreed with Hasan's interpretation of the end times. At least, not without Allah himself telling him it was alright. Therefore the attribution quote itself is almost certainly an invention, likely of 19th century British officers who were present in the Kingdom of Persia and carried out many excavations and explorations as part of the Great Game with Russia. Overwhelming British paranoia about both Russian intentions in the region and the perfidy of central Asian despots may have lead to appropriation of the later day Qiyamah doctrine in order to tar all Muslims with this exotic, yet untrustworthy label.
I was aware that Sabbah was austere and that there was no way a 'Garden' would fit in the physical space of Alamut ;-)
I thought I had read somewhere that Nietzsche had used an old Arabian saying... but now I can't find that reference anywhere and apparently there's some idea that Nietzche had just made it up and Burroughs later came up with the same term via his cut-up method... added it to his poem and then RAW cribbed from that.
:lulz:
So first, I'm a Cosmic Schmuck and was totally incorrect in my earlier comments on the meaning of the term as historical fubar. If Cain's theory is right, then the first use of it was particularly nihilistic. In Nietzsche use it appears slightly more pragmatic, in Burroughs poem it's just Bill's cut-up bullshit and the usage as I stated above, tying it with TFY,S! and Do As Thou Will is obviously RAW's usage from Illuminatus, Masks and his other works.
Thats what happens when I type from sources in memory rather than checking them first! I Fail.
With Nietzsche, it also probably relates back to his "perspectivism", which is even more radical than the name or the phraseology he uses suggests (quantum physicists would probably get a kick out of it).
And yeah, the Burroughs cut-up/RAW connection makes a lot of sense.
Quote from: Cain on June 29, 2010, 04:25:48 PM
With Nietzsche, it also probably relates back to his "perspectivism", which is even more radical than the name or the phraseology he uses suggests (quantum physicists would probably get a kick out of it).
And yeah, the Burroughs cut-up/RAW connection makes a lot of sense.
Well, Bob always said 'Reality Is What You Can Get Away With'... the bastard. :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: