Inspired by the current natterings on education.
What I'm interested in here is hearing thoughts about what should be done in classrooms, what could/does work well in education, what is the fundamental purpose of education etc.
Obviously I'm not going to start randomly following all suggestions, but i'm interested in getting the impressions of this community.
I don't want to give too much detail except to say all my students are below 14, mostly below 13.
Depends on what you're teaching. I'm currently doing music classes, and writing up both a history study plan and international relations one (history for next year, IR on the advice of a teacher here) and those are significantly different from each other, and other subjects.
The Canadian school system, circa 1979. That was about as close to perfect as you get.
Teach the subject, not the test.
If a student fails, he/she fails & repeats the grade.
All subjects are connected. A spelling error in the answer to a word problem in elementary school math means the question is wrong.
Rote memorization is a requirement, even if that means the little darlings have to study.
Misbehavior results in discipline, up to and including expulsion.
The class moves at the pace of the curriculum, not the fastest or slowest students. The faster ones will have to learn to be patient (part of any useful education), and the slower ones will receive extra help.
Obviously, this requires some funding, so it won't work in America. America isn't capable of this level of structure, anymore.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:16:14 PM
The Canadian school system, circa 1979. That was about as close to perfect as you get.
Teach the subject, not the test.
If a student fails, he/she fails & repeats the grade.
All subjects are connected. A spelling error in the answer to a word problem in elementary school math means the question is wrong.
Rote memorization is a requirement, even if that means the little darlings have to study.
Misbehavior results in discipline, up to and including expulsion.
The class moves at the pace of the curriculum, not the fastest or slowest students. The faster ones will have to learn to be patient (part of any useful education), and the slower ones will receive extra help.
Obviously, this requires some funding, so it won't work in America. America isn't capable of this level of structure, anymore.
1) Agree.
2) Agree.
3) Disagree. Rote memorization leads to fake explanations, where people can give a rote answer to a question but fail at actually understanding and applying the concept. It works for elementary mathematics and spelling, yes. I do agree it's important to develop memory skills.
4) Agree. This goes from first grade to PhD candidates and professionals. There is no alternative to honor codes with strict consequences that actually works.
5) Agree. Geniuses should be taught to seek out knowledge themselves in experience and books/other media anyway rather than relying on teachers to hand it to them.
So, I disagree with you on only the third point, and only somewhat.
Quote from: Kai on July 27, 2010, 05:27:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:16:14 PM
The Canadian school system, circa 1979. That was about as close to perfect as you get.
Teach the subject, not the test.
If a student fails, he/she fails & repeats the grade.
All subjects are connected. A spelling error in the answer to a word problem in elementary school math means the question is wrong.
Rote memorization is a requirement, even if that means the little darlings have to study.
Misbehavior results in discipline, up to and including expulsion.
The class moves at the pace of the curriculum, not the fastest or slowest students. The faster ones will have to learn to be patient (part of any useful education), and the slower ones will receive extra help.
Obviously, this requires some funding, so it won't work in America. America isn't capable of this level of structure, anymore.
1) Agree.
2) Agree.
3) Disagree. Rote memorization leads to fake explanations, where people can give a rote answer to a question but fail at actually understanding and applying the concept. It works for elementary mathematics and spelling, yes. I do agree it's important to develop memory skills.
4) Agree. This goes from first grade to PhD candidates and professionals. There is no alternative to honor codes with strict consequences that actually works.
5) Agree. Geniuses should be taught to seek out knowledge themselves in experience and books/other media anyway rather than relying on teachers to hand it to them.
So, I disagree with you on only the third point, and only somewhat.
3. I was thinking more along the lines of multiplication tables, etc, that don't change.
Then we are in complete agreement.
Also, it's interesting how simple the above items are in implementation, but that they are also not easy in any sense due to social norms.
Quote from: Kai on July 27, 2010, 05:53:15 PM
Then we are in complete agreement.
Also, it's interesting how simple the above items are in implementation, but that they are also not easy in any sense due to social norms America being too incompetent.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on July 27, 2010, 12:42:12 PM
Inspired by the current natterings on education.
What I'm interested in here is hearing thoughts about what should be done in classrooms, what could/does work well in education, what is the fundamental purpose of education etc.
Obviously I'm not going to start randomly following all suggestions, but i'm interested in getting the impressions of this community.
I don't want to give too much detail except to say all my students are below 14, mostly below 13.
do your fucking job!!! tell parents to be more involved with their kids!!! Don't be a pussy and pass some asshole just because they're a goddamn cheerleader or on the wrestling team!!! IGNORE PHONE CALLS FROM ANGRY PARENTS WHEN YOU DO FAIL ONE OF THEIR KIDS.
worked for my mom and dad.
I agree with Dok.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 05:16:14 PM
The Canadian school system, circa 1979. That was about as close to perfect as you get.
Teach the subject, not the test.
If a student fails, he/she fails & repeats the grade.
All subjects are connected. A spelling error in the answer to a word problem in elementary school math means the question is wrong.
Rote memorization is a requirement, even if that means the little darlings have to study.
Misbehavior results in discipline, up to and including expulsion.
The class moves at the pace of the curriculum, not the fastest or slowest students. The faster ones will have to learn to be patient (part of any useful education), and the slower ones will receive extra help.
Obviously, this requires some funding, so it won't work in America. America isn't capable of this level of structure, anymore.
The only change I would say, is for those students who would be chapters ahead, well, I still believe in honors or gifted classes being available. Problem is these days, the gifted kids are just the ones who actually do the work, not that they are any smarter or dedicated. That needs to change.
Quote from: -Kel- on July 27, 2010, 06:43:23 PM
do your fucking job!!! tell parents to be more involved with their kids!!! Don't be a pussy and pass some asshole just because they're a goddamn cheerleader or on the wrestling team!!! IGNORE PHONE CALLS FROM ANGRY PARENTS WHEN YOU DO FAIL ONE OF THEIR KIDS.
worked for my mom and dad.
My parents were always on the "the teacher is always right" routine. I was always wrong. As a result, it was either learn from any kind of teacher I'm assigned and make the grades they demanded of me, or get my ass beat every day between report cards. Yes I mean every single fucking day.
Teachers loved my parents.
What Kel said, with perhaps calmer punctuation.
Oh and yeah, rote mem is great for certain things. Like the table of elements. Or the constitution. Less so for history, art, and certain parts of math (why things happen a certain way is more meaningful than the "answer" sometimes.)
Placid Dingo, are you familiar with Search Institute's 40 Developmental Assets?
They can be found here: http://www.search-institute.org/40-developmental-asset-middle-childhood-8-12
Search has data that the more of these assets a kid has, the less likely they are to engage in anti-social behaviors and the more likely they are to engage in pro-social and positive behaviors, such as doing well in school.
This is one thing schools can do, weave more of these developmental assets into curricula and make it a part of their overall school culture.
Some of these are beyond the domain of the school and more for community and advocacy groups to take on. But there are some schools can take advantage of and implement.
For some aspects of history, rote memorization is pretty useful. The "what actually happened" part, the dates of dead kings etc...then the skills at analysis can come a little later, since you'll be dealing with concepts some kids wont grasp immediately, and it's better for them to know something than nothing at all because of an overemphasis on the conceptual end of the subject.
It's a good question, as I have a 7 month old, and we want to raise him with our values, but since that often goes to "Question EVERYTHING! BELIEVE NOTHING... Fight the MACHINE" how do you teach that? I think often of the song by Phil Ochs, below... Which BTW, is the ring tone when my parents call...
Oh I am just a student, sir, and only want to learn
But it's hard to read through the risin' smoke of the books that you like to burn
So I'd like to make a promise and I'd like to make a vow
That when I've got something
Oh you've given me a number and you've taken off my name
To get around this campus why you almost need a plane
And you're supporting Chang Kai-Shek, while I'm supporting Mao
So when I've got something to say, sir, I'm gonna say it now
I wish that you'd make up your mind, I wish that you'd decide
That I should live as freely as those who live outside
Cause we also are entitled to the rights to be endowed
And when I've got something to say, sir, I'm gonna say it now
Ooh, you'd like to be my father you'd like to be my Dad
And give me kisses when I'm good and spank me when I'm bad
But since I've left my parents I've forgotten how to bow
So when I've got something to say, sir, I'm gonna say it now
And things they might be different if I was here alone
But I've got a friend or two who no longer live at home
And we'll respect our elders just as long as they allow
That when I've got something to say, sir, I'm gonna say it now
I've read of other countries where the students take a stand
Maybe even help to overthrow the leaders of the land
Now I wouldn't go so far to say we're also learnin' how
But when I've got something to say, sir, I'm gonna say it now
So keep right on a-talkin' and tell us what to do
If nobody listens my apologies to you
And I know that you were younger once 'cause you sure are older now
And when I've got something to say, sir, I'm gonna say it now
Oh I am just a student sir, and only want to learn
But it's hard to read through the risin' smoke from the books
that you like to burn
So I'd like to make a promise and I'd like to make a vow
That when I've got something to say, sir, I'm gonna say it now
Quote from: Cain on July 27, 2010, 08:43:19 PM
For some aspects of history, rote memorization is pretty useful. The "what actually happened" part, the dates of dead kings etc...then the skills at analysis can come a little later, since you'll be dealing with concepts some kids wont grasp immediately, and it's better for them to know something than nothing at all because of an overemphasis on the conceptual end of the subject.
That's easy to agree with.
Quote from: -Kel- on July 27, 2010, 06:43:23 PM
tell parents to be more involved with their kids!!!
While I agree, parents aren't under the control of the school system, schools need to function in spite of the parents as often as the parents help.
I'm curious what can be done to give the schools a degree of financial stability, as it stands every time tax revenue tanks the school systems instantly become insolvent, seemingly regardless of how much money they had before. An effect of parkinson's law I suppose.
Quote from: Sigmatic on July 27, 2010, 06:58:59 PM
What Kel said, with perhaps calmer punctuation.
Oh and yeah, rote mem is great for certain things. Like the table of elements. Or the constitution. Less so for history, art, and certain parts of math (why things happen a certain way is more meaningful than the "answer" sometimes.)
No good for most of science. Knowing the laws of gravitation are no good if I can't actually apply them in anticipating reality.
Pretty much- unless, say, you were just fudging a curriculum that sounded like science to keep people from complaining about ineducation. Lucky us nobody would ever do such a terrible thing.
Quote from: RWHN on July 27, 2010, 07:13:57 PM
Placid Dingo, are you familiar with Search Institute's 40 Developmental Assets?
They can be found here: http://www.search-institute.org/40-developmental-asset-middle-childhood-8-12
Search has data that the more of these assets a kid has, the less likely they are to engage in anti-social behaviors and the more likely they are to engage in pro-social and positive behaviors, such as doing well in school.
This is one thing schools can do, weave more of these developmental assets into curricula and make it a part of their overall school culture.
Some of these are beyond the domain of the school and more for community and advocacy groups to take on. But there are some schools can take advantage of and implement.
I am not familiar but it seems fantastic for the most part (and tweakable where not fantastic.)
Cain: Right now I teach Japanese. And I agree so much with the idea that what we need to provide is in some ways a web of reference points. I'm reading a stack now, and a lot of the things I read, I don't understand properly (and will need to reread) but every so often I get to a country, political figure, time period etc and go Ohhh, THEY did THIS, or THAT'S where THIS happened. So enough reference points provide point of knowledge that kids can begin to build up on their own (oh that T shirt guy, he's from Cuba! ... Bay of Pigs in Cuba, oh yeah!, Cuba's where the T shirt guy was!)
Khara
In terms of gifted/tallented people, there's a book on this idea by Dr Ken Robinson. It's called 'The Element' and looks at the idea of education as a way of helping students discover their areas of maximum potential (not that there aren't also generally gifted or polimathic people out there)