Collectively we know a lot of shit about a lot of shit, and we're fairly adept at figuring things out that we don't already know.
So,
What do "we" (meaning a protracted debate) think would work best as a form of government and/or economic model?
I don't mean "pick something that has already been invented" unless you really think that's the best answer, I mean, if we were dropped on to a planet full of uncultured, uneducated goons with no discernable form of government at all, and asked us to create one for them from scratch, what would it look like?
Quote from: vexati0n on August 24, 2010, 09:00:49 PM
Collectively we know a lot of shit about a lot of shit, and we're fairly adept at figuring things out that we don't already know.
So,
What do "we" (meaning a protracted debate) think would work best as a form of government and/or economic model?
I don't mean "pick something that has already been invented" unless you really think that's the best answer, I mean, if we were dropped on to a planet full of uncultured, uneducated goons with no discernable form of government at all, and asked us to create one for them from scratch, what would it look like?
If we were dropped onto a government-less but populated planet and had to start a government from scratch, I imagine that we would form an theocratic oligarchy. Theocratic in that on such a world we would likely be seen as gods, and we would probably keep up that pretense, at least in the short term. I think that's technically a first, since most of what we consider to be theocracy is actually run by clerics as opposed to any actual gods. As far as what kind of oligarchy it may be democratic (amongst ourselves) or it might be a "you get this chunk of land, I get this chunk of land." Probably wouldn't be best, but then again, we're still working the kinks out of "democracy."
QuoteCollectively we know a lot of shit about a lot of shit, and we're fairly adept at figuring things out that we don't already know.
So,
What do "we" (meaning a protracted debate) think would work best as a form of government and/or economic model?
I don't mean "pick something that has already been invented" unless you really think that's the best answer, I mean, if we were dropped on to a planet full of uncultured, uneducated goons with no discernable form of government at all, and asked us to create one for them from scratch, what would it look like?
currently assembling ideas in my head, but am technically buried in work atm. will try and have something this evening. There's a LOT to consider in any answer including mores, morays and folkways that need to be in place to keep the system devolving due to the baser human instincts.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 24, 2010, 09:00:49 PM
Collectively we know a lot of shit about a lot of shit, and we're fairly adept at figuring things out that we don't already know.
So,
What do "we" (meaning a protracted debate) think would work best as a form of government and/or economic model?
I don't mean "pick something that has already been invented" unless you really think that's the best answer, I mean, if we were dropped on to a planet full of uncultured, uneducated goons with no discernable form of government at all, and asked us to create one for them from scratch, what would it look like?
Considering we fell from the sky it shouldnt be too hard to convince the local populace that we are Gods.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 24, 2010, 09:00:49 PM
I mean, if we were dropped on to a planet full of uncultured, uneducated goons with no discernable form of government at all, and asked us to create one for them from scratch, what would it look like?
Lord of the Flies by William Golding.
Quotewe're still working the kinks out of "democracy."
the "kinks" can never be worked out of democracy.. It's always failed eventually, and unless you compelling arguments to the contrary, I believe it always will fail..
eventually is the key word.
Quote from: Dr. Vrtig0 on August 24, 2010, 09:19:35 PM
Quotewe're still working the kinks out of "democracy."
the "kinks" can never be worked out of democracy.. It's always failed eventually, and unless you compelling arguments to the contrary, I believe it always will fail..
eventually is the key word.
Not disagreeing, but I do think that the democratic republic is the best form of government we've come up with.
I think the first thing to consider is size of the population vs land mass vs resources
The bureaucracy needed for a spread out smaller population is different then a larger more compressed population.
The first thing to make sure of food supply. How much your people are hungry will go far into a stable government.
I think the best way to establish order (drawing on slightly from the American model) is not have a don't do list, but to have a series of rights for each individual in the society that can not be infringed upon by anyone including the government. Use that a stepping stone to build up your legal system.
Then of course get the tech tree working towards nukes.
Wait I'm think Civ4 here.
:oops:
Quote from: vexati0n on August 24, 2010, 09:00:49 PM
Collectively we know a lot of shit about a lot of shit, and we're fairly adept at figuring things out that we don't already know.
So,
What do "we" (meaning a protracted debate) think would work best as a form of government and/or economic model?
I don't mean "pick something that has already been invented" unless you really think that's the best answer, I mean, if we were dropped on to a planet full of uncultured, uneducated goons with no discernable form of government at all, and asked us to create one for them from scratch, what would it look like?
A government that would succeed with humans....
1. National Security would have to be completely rethought from its current existence. Security would have to be an open process without relying on secrets. (See Open Source security model arguments). This would curtail mistrust of the government by the citizens.
2. The government would need to be flat from a communication perspective. No one individual would have a greater say or 'more power' than any others.
3. Legislators would be picked by lottery either annually or biannually. Laws would have a mandatory sunset date of ten years with each legislative session able to overturn previous laws before the sunset date.
4. Political parties would be forbidden from holding any official status. IE you can have a political party, but it doesn't get you squat in the actual government... no guaranteed spot on the ballot, no special caucus rights etc.
5. Maximize individual liberties and education, while minimizing prohibitive laws. Education should have a far larger budget than enforcement on almost all issues.
There's my first five ideas :)
QuoteNot disagreeing, but I do think that the democratic republic is the best form of government we've come up with.
well, then I'd agree with that, even though that's also devolving after only 200 years.
you didn't add republic to the end in your first post.
Quote from: Ratatosk on August 24, 2010, 09:29:30 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on August 24, 2010, 09:00:49 PM
Collectively we know a lot of shit about a lot of shit, and we're fairly adept at figuring things out that we don't already know.
So,
What do "we" (meaning a protracted debate) think would work best as a form of government and/or economic model?
I don't mean "pick something that has already been invented" unless you really think that's the best answer, I mean, if we were dropped on to a planet full of uncultured, uneducated goons with no discernable form of government at all, and asked us to create one for them from scratch, what would it look like?
A government that would succeed with humans....
1. National Security would have to be completely rethought from its current existence. Security would have to be an open process without relying on secrets. (See Open Source security model arguments). This would curtail mistrust of the government by the citizens.
2. The government would need to be flat from a communication perspective. No one individual would have a greater say or 'more power' than any others.
3. Legislators would be picked by lottery either annually or biannually. Laws would have a mandatory sunset date of ten years with each legislative session able to overturn previous laws before the sunset date.
4. Political parties would be forbidden from holding any official status. IE you can have a political party, but it doesn't get you squat in the actual government... no guaranteed spot on the ballot, no special caucus rights etc.
5. Maximize individual liberties and education, while minimizing prohibitive laws. Education should have a far larger budget than enforcement on almost all issues.
There's my first five ideas :)
Lets think in the present for a moment. Weve been dropped into a society of completely uncultured savages. They probably dont have the
same technology or standard of living we do. I dont think we would have the luxury of education at the starting point of the civilization, and theyd probably be using the barter system so wed have to establish some sort of currency before we could decide to channel more of it into education than law enforcement.
Quote from: Dr. Vrtig0 on August 24, 2010, 09:36:11 PM
QuoteNot disagreeing, but I do think that the democratic republic is the best form of government we've come up with.
well, then I'd agree with that, even though that's also devolving after only 200 years.
you didn't add republic to the end in your first post.
Need foods. I get forgetful otherwise.
Quote from: Lord Carlos Esquire on August 24, 2010, 09:40:01 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on August 24, 2010, 09:29:30 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on August 24, 2010, 09:00:49 PM
Collectively we know a lot of shit about a lot of shit, and we're fairly adept at figuring things out that we don't already know.
So,
What do "we" (meaning a protracted debate) think would work best as a form of government and/or economic model?
I don't mean "pick something that has already been invented" unless you really think that's the best answer, I mean, if we were dropped on to a planet full of uncultured, uneducated goons with no discernable form of government at all, and asked us to create one for them from scratch, what would it look like?
A government that would succeed with humans....
1. National Security would have to be completely rethought from its current existence. Security would have to be an open process without relying on secrets. (See Open Source security model arguments). This would curtail mistrust of the government by the citizens.
2. The government would need to be flat from a communication perspective. No one individual would have a greater say or 'more power' than any others.
3. Legislators would be picked by lottery either annually or biannually. Laws would have a mandatory sunset date of ten years with each legislative session able to overturn previous laws before the sunset date.
4. Political parties would be forbidden from holding any official status. IE you can have a political party, but it doesn't get you squat in the actual government... no guaranteed spot on the ballot, no special caucus rights etc.
5. Maximize individual liberties and education, while minimizing prohibitive laws. Education should have a far larger budget than enforcement on almost all issues.
There's my first five ideas :)
Lets think in the present for a moment. Weve been dropped into a society of completely uncultured savages. They probably dont have the
same technology or standard of living we do. I dont think we would have the luxury of education at the starting point of the civilization, and theyd probably be using the barter system so wed have to establish some sort of currency before we could decide to channel more of it into education than law enforcement.
Placing it in this context makes some huge changes... After all, I have no idea what the mindset of humans are at the start of civilization... Some anthropologists argue that civilization was incidental an emergence from actions based on response to the environment.
If we're dealing with people that are just falling out of nomadic packs... the entire concept of government would be so alien to them, I'm not sure that we could implement anything other than theocracy/thugocracy.
If we presume that the humans are evolved enough to grasp the concepts of governance.... it would likely have to be something small and local, very tribal/anarchist* in design.
* Here we mean anarchist in the sense of voluntary association rather than compulsory allegiance.
EXERCISE CLARIFICATION
By "brutes with no government" I only meant to say we have no pre-conceived notions about what government is, and have to design a system from scratch. Whether they are actually cavemen was not a consideration.
All I'm trying to get at here is, what kind of government or economic system (or, preferably, both) would we invent if there were no bounds on our power to do it, and we were not terrible assholes (whether or not we actually are).
Quote from: vexati0n on August 24, 2010, 09:00:49 PM
Collectively we know a lot of shit about a lot of shit, and we're fairly adept at figuring things out that we don't already know.
So,
What do "we" (meaning a protracted debate) think would work best as a form of government and/or economic model?
I don't mean "pick something that has already been invented" unless you really think that's the best answer, I mean, if we were dropped on to a planet full of uncultured, uneducated goons with no discernable form of government at all, and asked us to create one for them from scratch, what would it look like?
If they've managed to populate a whole planet without government, culture, or education I want to find out how they did it rather than try to impose something new.
(Although totalitarian theocracy with me as God Emperor would certainly be tempting)
Quote from: Ratatosk on August 24, 2010, 09:29:30 PM
A government that would succeed with humans....
1. National Security would have to be completely rethought from its current existence. Security would have to be an open process without relying on secrets. (See Open Source security model arguments). This would curtail mistrust of the government by the citizens.
2. The government would need to be flat from a communication perspective. No one individual would have a greater say or 'more power' than any others.
3. Legislators would be picked by lottery either annually or biannually. Laws would have a mandatory sunset date of ten years with each legislative session able to overturn previous laws before the sunset date.
4. Political parties would be forbidden from holding any official status. IE you can have a political party, but it doesn't get you squat in the actual government... no guaranteed spot on the ballot, no special caucus rights etc.
5. Maximize individual liberties and education, while minimizing prohibitive laws. Education should have a far larger budget than enforcement on almost all issues.
There's my first five ideas :)
Didn't Athens try this and have it turn out horribly?
The best I can come up with are variations on representative democracy (anything which does not allow the people self determination on the rare occasions the people can be arsed to vote against the status quo will eventually end in a lot of bloodshed). Instant runoff voting instead of first past the post. Ban any benefits of seniority for elected officials. (A first term senator should have just as much power as a guy whose been there for 50 years), an establishment clause for political parties (as mentioned by Rat). There must be a way for the people to prosecute (not just sue, but press criminal charges) members of the government without needing the permission of the government for the trial to take place (both for justice reasons and to prevent rumor and to limit the extent someone suffers trial by press and public opinion).
There are a few good general ideas here, but mostly in terms of changes to the function of the system. Are rules against natural behavior the only way to check government's power and reduce corruption? Once a government is in power, it is effectively above the rules that it is supposed to abide by because it is the only body that can enforce them, but it is in its interests to break them instead.
Is there a way to incentivize good behavior in government, rather than trying to prohibit bad behavior?
How does one press charges in court without governmental permission? How would this be controlled so that opposition candidates couldn't just keep the folks in power tied up endlessly with frivolous cases?
Presumably the same way civil cases are handled.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 25, 2010, 01:38:31 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on August 24, 2010, 09:29:30 PM
A government that would succeed with humans....
1. National Security would have to be completely rethought from its current existence. Security would have to be an open process without relying on secrets. (See Open Source security model arguments). This would curtail mistrust of the government by the citizens.
2. The government would need to be flat from a communication perspective. No one individual would have a greater say or 'more power' than any others.
3. Legislators would be picked by lottery either annually or biannually. Laws would have a mandatory sunset date of ten years with each legislative session able to overturn previous laws before the sunset date.
4. Political parties would be forbidden from holding any official status. IE you can have a political party, but it doesn't get you squat in the actual government... no guaranteed spot on the ballot, no special caucus rights etc.
5. Maximize individual liberties and education, while minimizing prohibitive laws. Education should have a far larger budget than enforcement on almost all issues.
There's my first five ideas :)
Didn't Athens try this and have it turn out horribly?
Athens had Direct Democracy. If you were a male that had completed their military training you could show up at the Assembly and vote on issues. However, specific administrative offices were picked by lottery. Overall, Athenian democracy was a success. There were some issues, but I have yet to see a perfect system. What 'horrible' bits are you thinking of?
Socrates?
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 25, 2010, 07:41:38 PM
Socrates?
Ah... yep. Bad call, but really if you let monkeys manage themselves the occasional "kill that dude" is gonna happen. I mean what is a lynch mob but emotional 'direct democracy'?
I don't think a government exists which would make NO bad decisions... and it seems like the lottery selection process had much less to do with Socrates death than the xenophobia and religious beliefs of the people.
ETA: Not to mention that Socrates liked poking the people of Athens, telling them that they sucked and weren't as cool as Sparta (their arch rivals) and generally behaving like as ass to the people living around him. It's interesting that so many of the 'martyrs' for philosophy often get taken out because they intentionally try to stir shit. Obviously with the idea that it will somehow wake people up, but generally it appears to just piss people off.
QuoteI mean what is a lynch mob but emotional 'direct democracy'?
I mean what is
a lynch mob direct democracy but an emotional
'direct democracy'?lynch mob?
fixed.
Quote from: Dr. Vrtig0 on August 25, 2010, 08:40:51 PM
QuoteI mean what is a lynch mob but emotional 'direct democracy'?
I mean what is a lynch mob direct democracy but an emotional 'direct democracy'?lynch mob?
fixed.
:lulz:
I mean what is
a lynch mob direct democracy but an
emotional 'direct democracy'? rational lynch mob?
There ya go...
Quote
I mean what is a lynch mob direct democracy but an emotional 'direct democracy'? rational lynch mob?
There ya go...
I believe the direct meaning of Ochlocracy rules out reason and rationality.
Those crazy greeks.
Quote from: Ratatosk on August 25, 2010, 07:46:40 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 25, 2010, 07:41:38 PM
Socrates?
Ah... yep. Bad call, but really if you let monkeys manage themselves the occasional "kill that dude" is gonna happen. I mean what is a lynch mob but emotional 'direct democracy'?
I don't think a government exists which would make NO bad decisions... and it seems like the lottery selection process had much less to do with Socrates death than the xenophobia and religious beliefs of the people.
ETA: Not to mention that Socrates liked poking the people of Athens, telling them that they sucked and weren't as cool as Sparta (their arch rivals) and generally behaving like as ass to the people living around him. It's interesting that so many of the 'martyrs' for philosophy often get taken out because they intentionally try to stir shit. Obviously with the idea that it will somehow wake people up, but generally it appears to just piss people off.
IT's been said the Socrates participated in every step of his martydom, right up to the night before the poison, when he was given the chance to escape prison.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 25, 2010, 06:59:22 PM
Presumably the same way civil cases are handled.
Civil cases require government permission. Judges won't hear cases they feel are frivolous.
Quote from: vexati0n on August 24, 2010, 09:00:49 PMI mean, if we were dropped on to a planet full of uncultured, uneducated goons with no discernable form of government at all, and asked us to create one for them from scratch, what would it look like?
You mean what would I change if I ran into a group of people that has no form of government yet people are stupid enough not to ruin each other's lives? Why would I change that?
If I had to, I would convince them to... I don't know. Good question. :?
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on August 26, 2010, 01:54:18 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 25, 2010, 06:59:22 PM
Presumably the same way civil cases are handled.
Civil cases require government permission. Judges won't hear cases they feel are frivolous.
Yes they will, they might toss them out 5 seconds after hearing them, but they are obliged to read the complaint.
More importantly, you don't need to permission of the prosecutors office to file a civil case.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 25, 2010, 01:38:31 AM
Ban any benefits of seniority for elected officials. (A first term senator should have just as much power as a guy whose been there for 50 years)
This seems impossible to me, I mean you could make sure they don't get any official power (which is how it is here, unless you count cabinet positions as special power, though technically a first term rep could get that), but in the end, the longer they've been there the more connections and unofficial power they will have.
One thing I would change within our system is making the parties in the Upper house completely separate from the parties in the lower house (not sure how exactly to go about that though).
I also wouldn't mind seeing Randomocracy on a large scale, can't be any worse than how things work at the moment.
Quote from: Rumckle on August 27, 2010, 06:57:39 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 25, 2010, 01:38:31 AM
Ban any benefits of seniority for elected officials. (A first term senator should have just as much power as a guy whose been there for 50 years)
This seems impossible to me, I mean you could make sure they don't get any official power (which is how it is here, unless you count cabinet positions as special power, though technically a first term rep could get that), but in the end, the longer they've been there the more connections and unofficial power they will have.
That's a far cry from the power being based on seniority de jure.
Fair enough. What power do you get by seniority in the US?
I looked up the US federal government on Wikipedia, but I couldn't really see much. (though I do think your government system is kinda confusing, so I may have missed something)
Committee access, congresscritters with more seniority are more likely to get the committee their choice, and the most senior person of the majority party on a committee gets to chair. Bills all go through a committee process, so seniority is very important if you want to introduce legislation and have it actually be what you intended.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 27, 2010, 04:28:50 PM
Committee access, congresscritters with more seniority are more likely to get the committee their choice, and the most senior person of the majority party on a committee gets to chair. Bills all go through a committee process, so seniority is very important if you want to introduce legislation and have it actually be what you intended.
Or if you want to fuck with someone else's legislation, or if you want to be sure of getting favors for pushing someone else's legislation through etc.