Let's assume most of us have an opinion as to whether or not ghosts exist. In my experience those who have some type of encounter with whatever this is usually believe, and those who have had no experience do not. This is only a rule of reference and not a hard fact.
Before starting this thread I researched rituals of death. So many of these rituals, especially in the past, were designed to prevent the spirit of the recently deceased from remaining. Some of this was from fear, some from religious beliefs, and some from a desire to help the spirit move on.
What I have not found yet is why are there so many rituals designed to keep the spirit away? Many myths, if followed back far enough can be found to be based on a truth. Could this be the case in some of these death rituals?
Obviously I am in the believers camp here, so I will operate from this perspective, but will also look for alternatives.
We always assume when collecting evidence of ghosts, hauntings and paranormal experiences that they are visiting our existence, that we are the ones who can help them move on or whatever. Why? Oh, I know the answer, the question was designed to provoke thought.
What if it is us who are stepping onto their territory? I know, crazy. Humor me.
I am going to start from a completely neutral position. I am not going to automatically jump to the conclusion that whatever this is was ever human. Which will prompt the question of what is it then. I don't know.
But it should be fun to try to find out.
As to why rituals were designed to help the spirit move on, I refer to a quote by the great Mexican painter Freida Kahlo: "I hope the departue is joyful and I hope never to return."
More interesting is the issue of territory and of identity. Are you suggesting that there might be a form of consciousness that is somehow claiming a piece of experiential reality as its own?
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 22, 2010, 03:06:20 PM
As to why rituals were designed to help the spirit move on, I refer to a quote by the great Mexican painter Freida Kahlo: "I hope the departue is joyful and I hope never to return."
More interesting is the issue of territory and of identity. Are you suggesting that there might be a form of consciousness that is somehow claiming a piece of experiential reality as its own?
Suggesting? No, exploring. My entire premise on this hunt is very simple.
"I don't know, and I am not assuming."
Is it possible? What isn't?
Very cool. How would you go about starting this exploration? If it could be literally anything, then how do you start eliminating possibilities?
Honestly I think my first step has to be to follow death rituals as far back as I can. Then break them down into catagories. Then dig to see what was the root cause for the ritual.
The process of either evidence or dismissal.
The evidence of traditional rituals dating back thousands of years alone does not constitute a proof. For example, the Catholic Church is one of the oldest institutions on Earth, with a whole litany of rituals for every sort of occasion. Yet it does not follow that what the Catholic Church believes is in any way factual. Hinduism has texts and rituals going back even further, and the same applies to that religion.
That many ancient peoples had rituals related to departed spirits only indicates a belief in an afterlife was widespread in the past. That religion seems to be a near-universal phenomenon makes this unsurprising. Evolutionary psychologists have suggested many of the original rituals of religion developed once tribes grew too large for everyone to know each other on an individual basis, and that the rituals linked to them allowed for outsiders to be identified more readily. Various myths and beliefs in supernatural figures and other forms of existence formed the basis of tribal legends which helped consolidate group identity and the existing political structure, and later beliefs concerning an afterlife followed logically from these stories being taken at face value.
In the case of, for example, dark age and medieval Europe, belief in ghosts and the undead was widespread because they were mentioned in the Bible, and therefore must be true. Most stories, when examined with a critical eye, fall apart, often being the testimony of a "trustworthy gentleman" known to someone who was known to the writer, but because such things were so accepted at the time, stories of them from second-hand sources were accepted uncritically. This logical thinking coupled with irrational premises is what led theologians down the path of debating the nature of the bodies of demons (could they, for example, be hurt or killed? Do they require food?) and splitting hairs on the difference between the rising of the undead and the Resurrection.
Quote from: Cain on September 22, 2010, 03:17:54 PM
The evidence of traditional rituals dating back thousands of years alone does not constitute a proof. For example, the Catholic Church is one of the oldest institutions on Earth, with a whole litany of rituals for every sort of occasion. Yet it does not follow that what the Catholic Church believes is in any way factual. Hinduism has texts and rituals going back even further, and the same applies to that religion.
That many ancient peoples had rituals related to departed spirits only indicates a belief in an afterlife was widespread in the past. That religion seems to be a near-universal phenomenon makes this unsurprising. Evolutionary psychologists have suggested many of the original rituals of religion developed once tribes grew too large for everyone to know each other on an individual basis, and that the rituals linked to them allowed for outsiders to be identified more readily. Various myths and beliefs in supernatural figures and other forms of existence formed the basis of tribal legends which helped consolidate group identity and the existing political structure, and later beliefs concerning an afterlife followed logically from these stories being taken at face value.
In the case of, for example, dark age and medieval Europe, belief in ghosts and the undead was widespread because they were mentioned in the Bible, and therefore must be true. Most stories, when examined with a critical eye, fall apart, often being the testimony of a "trustworthy gentleman" known to someone who was known to the writer, but because such things were so accepted at the time, stories of them from second-hand sources were accepted uncritically. This logical thinking coupled with irrational premises is what led theologians down the path of debating the nature of the bodies of demons (could they, for example, be hurt or killed? Do they require food?) and splitting hairs on the difference between the rising of the undead and the Resurrection.
Yes. My research will by necessity predate the bible. I will have to focus on the more primitive peoples and try to avoid the pitfalls associated with them.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 03:17:32 PM
Honestly I think my first step has to be to follow death rituals as far back as I can. Then break them down into catagories. Then dig to see what was the root cause for the ritual.
The process of either evidence or dismissal.
I like this approach. Although, Cain makes a good point. A large amount of speculation has been built upon a tenuous foundation. If all possibilities are available, then the event you witnessed may have no connection to either human death or human ritual.
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 22, 2010, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 03:17:32 PM
Honestly I think my first step has to be to follow death rituals as far back as I can. Then break them down into catagories. Then dig to see what was the root cause for the ritual.
The process of either evidence or dismissal.
I like this approach. Although, Cain makes a good point. A large amount of speculation has been built upon a tenuous foundation. If all possibilities are available, then the event you witnessed may have no connection to either human death or human ritual.
And again, this is only a starting point, who knows where an open mind will allow it to lead?
Nicely put. I am eager to see what happens with this.
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 22, 2010, 03:23:59 PM
Nicely put. I am eager to see what happens with this.
Me too! Feel free to jump in!
http://library.thinkquest.org/16665/burial.htm
Here is where I begin.
Scratch that link. This is now going to start in a library. The internet is too readily full of zombie bullshit.
From the spiritual perspective, I would say that the rituals were designed to prevent the spirit coming back because they could be mischievous/malevolent, and then there would be nothing that you personally could do without a shaman/exorcist, and even then it might be a hard fight to get the spirit to move on and stop harassing the living. Call it preventative medicine. The spirit would have access to information that you do not, sees you when you're doing things that you wouldn't want mom to know about, can occasionally throw shit at you, and all that good stuff. Sure, that sort of ally might be beneficial, but you might do something to offend it, or maybe it secretly didn't like you to begin with and can torment you with impunity? Probably better to fear spirits and have no trafficking with them. Leave that to the priest class.
From a scientific perspective, I would say that a ritual that cuts the spirit off from the physical gives the mourners closure to prevent the psychological factors that go into interpreting something as a haunting. Something wierd happens, but obviously it can't be Uncle X because we banished his soul to culturally appropriate afterlife model.
I have no problem with accepting both as equally true, or based in truth.
I do find the suggestion that we're encroaching on their territory interesting. It makes me think that perhaps this could be purgatory. Or maybe a better analogy is the state penitentiary.
http://www.amazon.com/Death-Burial-Afterlife-Biblical-World/dp/1566634016
^
if you can find this at the library, it's a great read about death and burial practices, and beliefs about the afterlife in the period and region in which the old testament was written. It traces the origins of christian ideas about death to the other regional religions.
I took a class taught by the author, and it was fascinating.
Thanks Cram.
Also I think I have found the jumping off point.
The Olo Nhaju believes in a dual soul. The corporeal remains with the body until the final burial, while the "marrow of the soul", the essence, wanders incessantly, unable to enter the homeland of the dead until the completion of the ritual duties by the survivors. The soul lives marginally in two worlds. It belongs neither to the afterworld, nor can it resume its existence on earth. In this condition, it may seek revenge against its kin,
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/pecorip/SCCCWEB/ETEXTS/DeathandDying_TEXT/Death%20Ritual.pdf
Not surprisingly I keep tripping over religion and superstition. It seems even pre-historic man had the need to believe that something came after this life.
My search is only at the beginning however, to see if there is any evidence.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:11:30 PM
Not surprisingly I keep tripping over religion and superstition. It seems even pre-historic man had the need to believe that something came after this life.
My search is only at the beginning however, to see if there is any evidence.
Makes sense especially back then. Your life was short, you were likely in decent to poor health the entire time, if you were a woman, you'd probably get pregnant 50% of the time you had sex, and half of those kids would die, and you would possibly die delivering one of them. What's the point of dealing with all of that if there isn't some hope for something else? Not say this is the whole story, but a lot of people say if there is no god there is no point to life and everything becomes meaningless and they would probably kill themselves.
If I found out for sure that there wasn't a god I would try to find a way to become immortal.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 22, 2010, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:11:30 PM
Not surprisingly I keep tripping over religion and superstition. It seems even pre-historic man had the need to believe that something came after this life.
My search is only at the beginning however, to see if there is any evidence.
Makes sense especially back then. Your life was short, you were likely in decent to poor health the entire time, if you were a woman, you'd probably get pregnant 50% of the time you had sex, and half of those kids would die, and you would possibly die delivering one of them. What's the point of dealing with all of that if there isn't some hope for something else? Not say this is the whole story, but a lot of people say if there is no god there is no point to life and everything becomes meaningless and they would probably kill themselves.
If I found out for sure that there wasn't a god I would try to find a way to become immortal.
This is exactly the wall I seem to be running to at every turn. Even the academics understandably approach the subject from this angle. As there isn't much likelyhood that I will be able to speak with anyone connected to the ritual beginnings it is also unlikely I will be able to find any evidence.
Q-What makes burial grounds holy?
A-because we say so.
Q-When was the last time an upset spirit came back and wiped out a village?
A-......
And so on. I am fighting to keep my opinion out of this, but it is difficult.
Hmm... I'll have to think on this after some coffee and soup, since apparently I'm suddenly ravenous.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:29:07 PM
Q-When was the last time an upset spirit came back and wiped out a village?
A-......
if you live in a culture which believes in spirits, the evidence is everywhere
back before we had the medical term "night terrors", we used to think that when somebody woke up in the middle of the night totally paralyzed, what was actually happening was that a homonculus was sitting on his chest.
in europe, they used to think that illness was caused by sin. If you got sick, you probably just weren't praying enough.
so there's tons of "evidence" for any given superstition, but that evidence may only make sense to the culture where that belief comes from.
Quote from: Cramulus on September 22, 2010, 04:53:10 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 04:29:07 PM
Q-When was the last time an upset spirit came back and wiped out a village?
A-......
if you live in a culture which believes in spirits, the evidence is everywhere
back before we had the medical term "night terrors", we used to think that when somebody woke up in the middle of the night totally paralyzed, what was actually happening was that a homonculus was sitting on his chest.
in europe, they used to think that illness was caused by sin. If you got sick, you probably just weren't praying enough.
so there's tons of "evidence" for any given superstition, but that evidence may only make sense to the culture where that belief comes from.
And this is why the word "evidence" is in quotation marks. My quest is for quantifiable proof, and we all know where that is headed. I am looking not to prove, but to disprove superstition. Debunking is the correct phrase here.
Dok Alphapance.
The barstool has been applied to this vein of research.
Now it's time to toss out everything I do know, and look for ....something else.
we need a firm starting point, and go from there. Researching other people's imaginations does not seem to be the correct way to go at this time.
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 22, 2010, 06:34:34 PM
we need a firm starting point, and go from there. Researching other people's imaginations does not seem to be the correct way to go at this time.
Agreed.
There is 'evidence' caught on tape and voice recorders. Some it can be vetted to a 'known' I suppose.
I wouldn't call this my own personal theory, just the scenario that strikes me as most logical regarding ghosts and the afterlife and shit.
Fear of death, fear of one's precious identity simply ceasing to exist gives rise to the aspect of most any religion which covers the afterlife or reincarnation or whatever else.
Existence or non existence of said afterlife is unprovable so I'm not even going to enter into that here, suffice to say that any expectation of said afterlife appears to me to be denial-based wish fulfilment at it's most outlandish. However, given that the fear of death is a very real fear for a vast amount of people, ultimately perhaps the biggest fear, it's unsurprising to me to see how even the most rational minded individuals would be prepared to buy into pretty much any explanation, especially one as popularly presented as the mainstream religious ones.
I've always said - if you're going to believe in god then you have to believe in the devil but it runs much deeper than that. In order to believe in the bible, for instance, one is expected (if not altogether required) to believe in such things as virgin birth, raising of the dead, possession by demons, water sidestepping the normal fermentation process on it's way to alcohol...
I think notions of ghosts and spirits fit quite neatly in here. If you're prepared to accept that your immortal soul flys up out of your body when you die and goes somewhere then it aint a huge leap of faith to imagine a scenario where it's interrupted on it's journey, for whatever reason, which begs the question - what does it do next?
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on September 22, 2010, 06:36:51 PM
I wouldn't call this my own personal theory, just the scenario that strikes me as most logical regarding ghosts and the afterlife and shit.
Fear of death, fear of one's precious identity simply ceasing to exist gives rise to the aspect of most any religion which covers the afterlife or reincarnation or whatever else.
Existence or non existence of said afterlife is unprovable so I'm not even going to enter into that here, suffice to say that any expectation of said afterlife appears to me to be denial-based wish fulfilment at it's most outlandish. However, given that the fear of death is a very real fear for a vast amount of people, ultimately perhaps the biggest fear, it's unsurprising to me to see how even the most rational minded individuals would be prepared to buy into pretty much any explanation, especially one as popularly presented as the mainstream religious ones.
I've always said - if you're going to believe in god then you have to believe in the devil but it runs much deeper than that. In order to believe in the bible, for instance, one is expected (if not altogether required) to believe in such things as virgin birth, raising of the dead, possession by demons, water sidestepping the normal fermentation process on it's way to alcohol...
I think notions of ghosts and spirits fit quite neatly in here. If you're prepared to accept that your immortal soul flys up out of your body when you die and goes somewhere then it aint a huge leap of faith to imagine a scenario where it's interrupted on it's journey, for whatever reason, which begs the question - what does it do next?
My goal is to debunk, then see what is left over. Having
seen shit makes it a credible investigation.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 06:41:40 PM
My goal is to debunk, then see what is left over. Having seen shit makes it a credible investigation.
No arguments there. I just think that, speaking personally, I'd begin my investigation pretty much anywhere other than spirits and afterlifes. Individual or mass hallucination, echoes of the past or future via some function of time which we don't understand yet ... ghosts/spirits for me is the least likely explanation - I'd want to exhaust ever other imaginable explanation first.
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on September 22, 2010, 06:56:27 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 06:41:40 PM
My goal is to debunk, then see what is left over. Having seen shit makes it a credible investigation.
No arguments there. I just think that, speaking personally, I'd begin my investigation pretty much anywhere other than spirits and afterlifes. Individual or mass hallucination, echoes of the past or future via some function of time which we don't understand yet ... ghosts/spirits for me is the least likely explanation - I'd want to exhaust ever other imaginable explanation first.
Actually one of my target areas.
A big problem I have with so much of this;
"...in Victorian Era clothing....."
I guess ghosts can only come from that era.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 07:05:15 PM
A big problem I have with so much of this;
"...in Victorian Era clothing....."
I guess ghosts can only come from that era.
From the scientific explanation, it's because it's a fairly recent era that can easily be identified, plus it has an extra spooky quality. It's easier to imagine a ghost from that era.
From a spiritual perspective, since they are recent ghosts, they probably are still lingering because they haven't passed over yet. It would interesting to see if there are Italian accounts of dudes in togas.
I like your approach, falsifying is an important part of rational inquiry.
Probably more appropriate to your other thread where I mentioned my grandparents' house, but I just remembered that my step-father says he woke up once when he was growing up to see a British soldier standing above him. He grew up in Charlestown, which is where the Battle of Bunker Hill occured. He remains agnostic about it, since he describes himself as an agnostic atheist (though disbelief in gods doesn't necessarily mean disbelief in the soul).
I am at the point that if I don't collect my own findings from field work then I have nothing to work with.
There are also a LOT of reports from various locations about White Ladies.
Another pit fall, if I were on a civil war battlefield my brain would expect to see civil war soldiers.
This is going to be tougher than I thought.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 08:26:03 PM
I am at the point that if I don't collect my own findings from field work then I have nothing to work with.
There are also a LOT of reports from various locations about White Ladies.
Another pit fall, if I were on a civil war battlefield my brain would expect to see civil war soldiers.
This is going to be tougher than I thought.
Well, this might actually be a strength in your research. If you're in Charlestown or Lexington or Montreal, you'll see ghosts from the Continental Army or the Regular Army. If you're on Gettysburg you'll see Conferates and Federals. You can then take details of those ghost accounts and discount certain details as inaccurate or false. It might take some digging but, say if a ghost identifies with a particular name, you can check to see if there was a Confederate named Sullivan Biddle (X Files reference). If there wasn't, debunked. If the British ghost says, "I AM A REDCOAT!" you know it's automatically false because no one called them redcoats at the time.
Or for example if there is a haunted house, do the research on the details presented. Inconsistencies may creep in on further scrutiny.
You might have to take a couple of sample cases and investigate them to get an idea of what methods you'll be using. Simple ones like me hearing the footsteps and slamming doors should be ignored. There is nothing testable there. Ones of repeat visits that have detail to them are more promising.
This could be a lot of fun.
this might be a good read: Prehistoric Religion and Burial Practices (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/474788/prehistoric-religion)
Quote from: Cramulus on September 22, 2010, 08:47:09 PM
this might be a good read: Prehistoric Religion and Burial Practices (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/474788/prehistoric-religion)
Bookmarked. That looks pretty good and unbiased. When head clears I will read.
You also mentioned that another avenue you were pursuing was the wekening of the barrier of time thing. You should check to see if there are any accounts of ghosts that don't fit in with any historical details. They might not be as common, but it would be interesting in checking in on the ghosts-from-the-future aspect. It might imply that there is some sort of poorly understood bending of time involved here.
Or, simultaneously, say you have a hypothetical test case where someone in Victorian Era Clothing is haunting a place. On further research, you find that this Victorian era inhabitant committed suicide. The ghost that remained haunting the house was told by a previous ghost hunter to move on and go towards the light. The ghost is never heard from again. Extra digging turns up this woman's diary in which she describes ghosts with strange clothing and magical devices urging her to move on and go towards the light, which she interprets as needing to commit suicide.
Whoops. :lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 22, 2010, 08:57:50 PM
You also mentioned that another avenue you were pursuing was the wekening of the barrier of time thing. You should check to see if there are any accounts of ghosts that don't fit in with any historical details. They might not be as common, but it would be interesting in checking in on the ghosts-from-the-future aspect. It might imply that there is some sort of poorly understood bending of time involved here.
Or, simultaneously, say you have a hypothetical test case where someone in Victorian Era Clothing is haunting a place. On further research, you find that this Victorian era inhabitant committed suicide. The ghost that remained haunting the house was told by a previous ghost hunter to move on and go towards the light. The ghost is never heard from again. Extra digging turns up this woman's diary in which she describes ghosts with strange clothing and magical devices urging her to move on and go towards the light, which she interprets as needing to commit suicide.
Whoops. :lulz:
:lulz:
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 08:58:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 22, 2010, 08:57:50 PM
You also mentioned that another avenue you were pursuing was the wekening of the barrier of time thing. You should check to see if there are any accounts of ghosts that don't fit in with any historical details. They might not be as common, but it would be interesting in checking in on the ghosts-from-the-future aspect. It might imply that there is some sort of poorly understood bending of time involved here.
Or, simultaneously, say you have a hypothetical test case where someone in Victorian Era Clothing is haunting a place. On further research, you find that this Victorian era inhabitant committed suicide. The ghost that remained haunting the house was told by a previous ghost hunter to move on and go towards the light. The ghost is never heard from again. Extra digging turns up this woman's diary in which she describes ghosts with strange clothing and magical devices urging her to move on and go towards the light, which she interprets as needing to commit suicide.
Whoops. :lulz:
:lulz:
Well, ghosts are usually shrieking something like, "get out of my house!" Maybe from when they're standing, it still is their house and you're the ghost.
Twid,
Has a boner for time-travel and related topics
Ghost Hunters is on tonight. I like the show, but there are a few issues with it.
Regardless of when the sightings are, they hunt at night. They only hunt for one night. What? Buy a ticket, see a ghost?
They listen to the reports, then they will ask, "Are you Sally", for instance, thereby contaminating any findings.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 09:16:00 PM
Ghost Hunters is on tonight. I like the show, but there are a few issues with it.
Regardless of when the sightings are, they hunt at night. They only hunt for one night. What? Buy a ticket, see a ghost?
They listen to the reports, then they will ask, "Are you Sally", for instance, thereby contaminating any findings.
That's one of the problems when dealing with a topic usually relegated to fringe science- the people who generally do the research are usually hobbyists who are probably looking more for confirmation than finding out what's going on.
Say there is a spirit, as is understood by common definition, and you ask, "Are you Sally?" as you said.
"Um... yep! I'm Sally!"
"I knew it!"
I like the topic of UFOs, but that's an equally difficult topic to sort through the nonsense, if not more so.
I think open ended questions are the way to go.
Are you here?
Who/what are you?
Can you see me?
Why are you here?
Are you wondering why I am here?
Is there anything you want to tell me?
Is there anything you want me to tell you?
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 22, 2010, 09:27:30 PM
I think open ended questions are the way to go.
Are you here?
Who/what are you?
Can you see me?
Why are you here?
Are you wondering why I am here?
Is there anything you want to tell me?
Is there anything you want me to tell you?
Those are pretty good. No bias to them, very neutral questions.
Is this for the second book?
I think it would be fruitful to investigate the Ainu people (northern Japan), as they are one of the only people with a "animist" spiritual practice that goes back to pre-history that still exist today.
Who are the Ainu people? (http://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-japan/1-temp-from-africa-to-east-asia-the-tale-of-migration-and-origins-emerges-from-our-mitochondria-dna/origins-of-the-jomon-jomon-connections-with-the-continent-and-with-todays-japanese/who-are-the-ainu-people/)
Quote(http://heritageofjapan.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/220px-ainumanstilflied.jpg?w=220&h=266)
The Ainu are an indigenous ethnic group of people who live in Hokkaido in Japan today as well as in Russia (the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin). In the 19th Century, Japanese people called the northern island of Hokkaido "Ezochi" which means "Land of the Ainu". The term Ainu generally referred to the fair-skinned, long-haired hunter-gatherer-fishering people with animistic beliefs who had lived there for hundreds of years.
Getting into the Ainu headspace is about as close as we can come to prehistoric spiritual practices (genetic tests have shown relation to Australian Aborigines and some Native American tribes). The Ainu believe that everything in this world has "spirit", and don't even dispose of fish-bones without a ritual. Souls weren't unique to humans, but were found among plants, animals, mountains, water, and fire.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/features/ainu/
Here (http://books.google.com/books?id=B3U0w0YcbVAC&lpg=PA73&ots=dEvIAqhzJH&dq=Ainu%20ghost&pg=PA73#v=onepage&q=Ainu%20ghost&f=false) is a description of an Ainu Ghost Trap, used near fresh graves.
Quote from: Telarus on September 23, 2010, 06:40:57 AM
I think it would be fruitful to investigate the Ainu people (northern Japan), as they are one of the only people with a "animist" spiritual practice that goes back to pre-history that still exist today.
Who are the Ainu people? (http://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-japan/1-temp-from-africa-to-east-asia-the-tale-of-migration-and-origins-emerges-from-our-mitochondria-dna/origins-of-the-jomon-jomon-connections-with-the-continent-and-with-todays-japanese/who-are-the-ainu-people/)
Quote(http://heritageofjapan.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/220px-ainumanstilflied.jpg?w=220&h=266)
The Ainu are an indigenous ethnic group of people who live in Hokkaido in Japan today as well as in Russia (the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin). In the 19th Century, Japanese people called the northern island of Hokkaido "Ezochi" which means "Land of the Ainu". The term Ainu generally referred to the fair-skinned, long-haired hunter-gatherer-fishering people with animistic beliefs who had lived there for hundreds of years.
Getting into the Ainu headspace is about as close as we can come to prehistoric spiritual practices (genetic tests have shown relation to Australian Aborigines and some Native American tribes). The Ainu believe that everything in this world has "spirit", and don't even dispose of fish-bones without a ritual. Souls weren't unique to humans, but were found among plants, animals, mountains, water, and fire.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/features/ainu/
Here (http://books.google.com/books?id=B3U0w0YcbVAC&lpg=PA73&ots=dEvIAqhzJH&dq=Ainu%20ghost&pg=PA73#v=onepage&q=Ainu%20ghost&f=false) is a description of an Ainu Ghost Trap, used near fresh graves.
Thanks! I will look into this.
Who knows about noetic sciences?
no•et•ic: From the Greek noēsis / noētikos, meaning inner wisdom, direct knowing, or subjective understanding.
sci•ence: Systems of acquiring knowledge that use observation, experimentation, and replication to describe and explain natural phenomena.
no•et•ic sci•ences: A multidisciplinary field that brings objective scientific tools and techniques together with subjective inner knowing to study the full range of human experiences.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 23, 2010, 10:07:54 PM
Who knows about noetic sciences?
no•et•ic: From the Greek noēsis / noētikos, meaning inner wisdom, direct knowing, or subjective understanding.
sci•ence: Systems of acquiring knowledge that use observation, experimentation, and replication to describe and explain natural phenomena.
no•et•ic sci•ences: A multidisciplinary field that brings objective scientific tools and techniques together with subjective inner knowing to study the full range of human experiences.
I've heard of it, but I can't say that I know anything about it.