Principia Discordia

So, I was doing a little bit of thinking about starting a new "religion." This got me curious to see what was required to be recognized as an official "real-honest-to-goodeness" religion by the gov't. Maybe I didn't try hard enough, but I found very little information on how, exactly, to register a religion (anyone with links to this kind of info, plz to be sharing).

Regardless, this thought process lead to me wondering about officially registering Discordianism, which, in turn, lead me to wonder what everyone else thinks of the matter (undoubtedly this topic has been brought up before I was here, at one point or another).

So, out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on registering Discordianism as an "official religion?"

What's the point?

Religion....just a glorified cult. *shrug* :)

In the US at least, Religions aren't registered. Religious organizations are, for the purpose of being tax-exempt from the IRS, but as far as I know you do not register your religion, only the fact that you are a religious organization.

What would be the benefits? What would be the drawbacks? I, admittedly, don't know a whole lot about it, but tax exempt status and payed (fake) holidays sounds like a good thing. Plus, if we did get it actually recognized, wouldn't that be like the greatest GASM ever?

Just saying. What do you guys think?

I say yes.

because discordianism is funnier when outsiders take it seriously

to us on the inside, we know that it's kind of a joke

but I do so love the rare occasion that somebody is forced to respect the turkey curse as an actual religious practice, moosemas as an actual religious holyday, and this weird in-joke from the 1960s has to be treated with the same gravity as christianity


I like being able to say that I am not a christian, I am not a pagan, I am not an atheist, I am something else which is equally valid and yet does not have all the straightfaced bullshit.

Quote from: Cramulus on October 31, 2010, 03:30:45 PM
I say yes.

because discordianism is funnier when outsiders take it seriously

to us on the inside, we know that it's kind of a joke

but I do so love the rare occasion that somebody is forced to respect the turkey curse as an actual religious practice, moosemas as an actual religious holyday, and this weird in-joke from the 1960s has to be treated with the same gravity as christianity


I like being able to say that I am not a christian, I am not a pagan, I am not an atheist, I am something else which is equally valid and yet does not have all the straightfaced bullshit.

I agree with all of the above. Plus, if the fucking Jedi religion can get recognized, there's no reason why we shouldn't.

I think it's a good idea.  It's on my dog tags so the Air Force already recognizes it as a religion.  They wouldn't do it when I initially asked.

What it sounds like is that we really just need an organization that is registered as a religious one, so I think the question would be what organization would we be?

This was mentioned before, but was shot down with the argument that "discordia doesnt acknowledge the state, state doesnt acknowledge discordia".

Not that im taking sides, because its a complex matter with pros and cons.

If im not mistaken, for a Church to be recognized locally, it needs certain number of members that meet in a specific estate.... -looking-

I need to lrn2constitution, but what article or whatever is which deals with religion? Im sure starting from there you can branch off to find specifics.

Jesusfuckingchrist did you guys know that Jehova's Witnesses invoked 1st Amendment to avoid military service??? And they WON.

From my conversations with people who have gotten the legal ability to perform marriages through internet based religions, the two big things seem to be some kind of mailing address for the religion, and a discriminatory ordination process (IE, some people who apply must be rejected).  The latter is a bit of a problem for Discordians.

I think the 1st and 14th amendment would be the basics from where to start off.

Talking to a lawyer wouldnt hurt either.

I don't think discordia could win a court battle.  The courts have a history of tossing out even very strong claims when made by small unheard of religions.

That aside, unless you happen to have millions of dollars lying around, or know an organization that would actually want to represent us, legal battles are irrelevant.

There was a church in San Francisco that claimed to worship the penis, and was operating as a tax-exempt entity. The IRS called bullshit and sent 2 agents to investigate. They sat in on a church service, looking down their noses at the congregation, which was composed entirely of men. At the culmination of the service, the men all stripped naked and started blowing each other between shouts about the magnificence of the male sex organ. The IRS agents quickly decided that these fuckers were serious, left in a hurry, and the church got to keep their tax exempt status.

The Church of Satan claims official religion status due to their incorporation in military services, you can request a Satanic chaplain and they cling to that little document.

Will we get a nice laminated card?
Will we finally get Official Funny Hats?

I'd like to see a big, fake moustache and traffic cones in official documentation.

While I think it'd be funny the risk is someone would take it too fucking seriously and try to gain control of the Official Legal Church Of Eris and ruin the whole joke with monkey business. Drama lama parade of stupidly legal proportions.

The Church of Satan is actually a very useful example of an official modern religion overall and would be worth looking into.

Quote from: Joh'Nyx on October 31, 2010, 08:41:32 PM
This was mentioned before, but was shot down with the argument that "discordia doesnt acknowledge the state, state doesnt acknowledge discordia".

My Discordia acknowledges the state in the same way that it acknowledges a barstool.

Quote from: Alty on October 31, 2010, 09:51:10 PM
While I think it'd be funny the risk is someone would take it too fucking seriously and try to gain control of the Official Legal Church Of Eris and ruin the whole joke with monkey business. Drama lama parade of stupidly legal proportions.

The Church of Satan is actually a very useful example of an official modern religion overall and would be worth looking into.

The Church of Satan fits all the preexisting legal concepts of a religion though, they have an organized structure, clergy, etc.  Where Discordia would have problems is that we don't have clergy or a head office or houses of worship.

Anyone could start a church of Eris and it would exist as a church. It's probably been done. It wouldn't suddenly represent the entire religion, that's not how churches work.

Quote from: Alty on October 31, 2010, 09:51:10 PM

The Church of Satan is actually a very useful example of an official modern religion overall and would be worth looking into.

Bullshit, they are just another spinoff Christian religion, thats cheating.

 :lulz:
I thought they were atheists who wanted to wear official funny hats and get a tax break.
They only use the terminology because they can't let Jesus-related butthurt go and because it makes Christians immediately uncomfortable.

Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on October 31, 2010, 11:44:51 PM
Anyone could start a church of Eris and it would exist as a church. It's probably been done. It wouldn't suddenly represent the entire religion, that's not how churches work.

Not legally, no.

But if this place started up an official, state recognized religion:
-who would be in charge?
-how would that be determined?
-what would that mean, exactly? What kind of authority would that/those positions hold?
-what if people had problems with that?

This site already has people pissed off with the way we see Discordia even though there's hardly a consensus. And sure, those people can go fuck themselves. They can build their own sandbox, they can have their own forum and their own legal entity, just like the bajillion Christian denomination.

But there will be more bickering and stupid concerning who's is real, what that means, and plenty of internal arguments about how things ought to be done. Not to mention that people will take The most holy church of Discordia at face value as what it's supposed to mean. And internal conflicts as to authority, direction, etc.


I'm all for it, for the fun of it. But I forsee hassles.

-

Ah nevermind I just realized wiccans have chaplains as well and no official central authority.

What the hell did wiccans do to get that? What validates them specifically, legally?

You don't need a place of worship to get it, that just circumvents some of the application process.  Been looking at the IRS site to see what they require.  The big things is that you have to have a tax exempt purpose (this is really easy, as 'social club' and 'hobby group' are among the options) fill out 30 or so pages of paperwork, and your income source has to be from restricted sources (bingo games, selling donated goods, a business that subsists entirely on volunteer labor, donations from the membership, maybe some other stuff I'm forgetting now that I closed the window).

Churches just gets you out of filling out the 30 page long application form for tax free status.

Thinking about this, if we want to get recognition without actually creating a legal entity* then the best first step might be to get Discordian representatives into various interfaith conferences, or possibly sue a lot of people for discrimination (wasn't somebody getting Discordian sites blocked at a government job for being 'alternative spirituality'?).  The tax exempt thing is pointless until there's money or property to avoid being taxed on, and the various clergy benefits are the toughest nut to crack given that everybody is a Discordian pope.

Quote from: Alty on November 01, 2010, 12:41:37 AM
Ah nevermind I just realized wiccans have chaplains as well and no official central authority.

What the hell did wiccans do to get that? What validates them specifically, legally?

Through the sacred Whining Ritual.

Quote from: Alty on October 31, 2010, 09:51:10 PM
While I think it'd be funny the risk is someone would take it too fucking seriously and try to gain control of the Official Legal Church Of Eris and ruin the whole joke with monkey business. Drama lama parade of stupidly legal proportions.

That wouldn't be funny?  Are you joking?  That would be our finest hour.

The point is to get the "religion" recognized as legitimate by the US government.  Before that, you have to convince the IRS.  The IRS requires the following;

1. distinct legal existence,
2.a recognized creed and form of worship,
3.a definite and distinct ecclesiastical government,
4.a formal code of doctrine and discipline
5.a distinct religious history,
6.a membership not associated with any other church or denomination,
7,an organization of ordained ministers,
8.ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed studies,
9.a literature of its own,
10.established places of worship,
11.regular congregations,
12.regular religious services,
13. weekly schools for religious instruction of the young,
14. school for the preparation of its ministers.


Some of these can be argued, 5. 13 and 14 are seriously debatable, but for the most part, that's what they want.

I really don't see Discordians giving enough of a shit to do all of that.  But you never know.

You're missing the most important bit: enough money to be taxed.  I don't think the Project Wonderful ads are bringing in enough.

Quote from: Requia ☣ on November 01, 2010, 04:52:31 PM
You're missing the most important bit: enough money to be taxed.  I don't think the Project Wonderful ads are bringing in enough.

What?  If it were recognized then it would be a tax exempt entity.

Being a recognized religion doesn't automatically grant tax exempt status, each entity has to apply for tax exempt status separately.  Nor does being a religion automatically grant it (the mormon church still pays taxes on the malls it owns), you have to have a purpose that's tax exempt.  At the very most a church (pretty sure they mean 'place of worship' here) gets out of some of the paperwork.

That's right, I just bumped this shit.

I still want to know what the rest of you guys think.

I'm going to use the connections I made with the campus newspaper to talk to thier lawyer, just to see what the "order of operations" would be for doing something like this, how much money it would take, and things of the such. Legalese always makes more sense to me when it's communicated verbaly

Quote from: Requia ☣ on November 01, 2010, 05:08:19 PM
Being a recognized religion doesn't automatically grant tax exempt status, each entity has to apply for tax exempt status separately.  Nor does being a religion automatically grant it (the mormon church still pays taxes on the malls it owns), you have to have a purpose that's tax exempt.  At the very most a church (pretty sure they mean 'place of worship' here) gets out of some of the paperwork.

Maybe next time read what I wrote, not what you thought you saw........

Quote from: Khara on November 01, 2010, 01:28:46 PM
The point is to get the "religion" recognized as legitimate by the US government.  Before that, you have to convince the IRS.  The IRS requires the following;