It allows idiots like Laurie Penny (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/24/student-protests-childrens-crusade) to describe student protests as a "children's crusade" with no historical awareness of what that phrase suggests.
As an aside, it is a children's crusade, in the sense that they're all going to go on a march, end up going in the wrong direction (ie voting for Labour, who are also set on raising tuition fees), and eventually be sold into (loan repayment) slavery.
Watching the news last night, you'd have thought the whole fucking country was on fire, not just a few thousand students wandering about in Westminster.
Noes, riots!
Fucking bunch of limpwristed pansies. The French and the Greeks - they do riots. This is just slightly forceful protesting. Not that it matters. Once they get to voting age, they'll sign on up en masse to put a cross next to Ed Miliband's Labour Party, who will proceed to fuck them over in exactly the same way the Lib Dems did, uh, five months ago. And they can put on as many pretty marches as they want, but all three parties are de facto committed to raising the cost of education. They're screwed. Game over. I fully approve of breaking shit, or even just getting out of the house for a while, but I'm realistic in that I acknowledge it wont change anything.
Incidentally, it turns out Laurie Penny is around the same age as me. Which doesn't excuse her historical unawareness, but explains a lot. Most people around my age, especially those in the media, are far too busy reading newspapers and opinion polls and so on to take notice of piddling things like history.
Quote from: Subetai on November 25, 2010, 02:55:14 PM
It allows idiots like Laurie Penny (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/24/student-protests-childrens-crusade) to describe student protests as a "children's crusade" with no historical awareness of what that phrase suggests.
As an aside, it is a children's crusade, in the sense that they're all going to go on a march, end up going in the wrong direction (ie voting for Labour, who are also set on raising tuition fees), and eventually be sold into (loan repayment) slavery.
And they're probably even wearing jeans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_in_Jeans) ! :lulz:
Yeah, I really get the impression the student protests are really optimistic ~ I think they're gunna have to break a lot more shit to change anybody's mind.
Although on the other hand, I almost don't think that raising tuition fees... is a TERRIBLE thing, y'know? I mean obviously I'd like to get a degree as cheap as possible, but I'd rather get a good degree and have debt, than a shitty degree and have less debt. I mean I'm gunna get financially fucked in the ass wherever I go to uni, so basically I just gotta suck it up.
There needs to be more funding for higher education, no doubt.
On the other hand, we just pulled several billion out of our arses to bail out Irish banks, so....
I heard somewhere that the bailout money is ALL of the projected savings that we're making from the cuts. :lulz:
We live in hard time, and must make sacrifices for the common good. We all must tighten our belts and act with fiscal responsibility...wait, are there bankers about to go bust because of their own stupidity and greed? Where is my chequebook?
WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER LOL
/
(http://ablemagazine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/George-Osborne.jpg)
Im a bit uninformed here.
Exactly how much are they planning on raising the fee to?
From £3,300 a year to...well, it's not exactly clear as it hasn't been finalized yet, but it is believed Progressive Hero Nick Clegg, Deputy PM, Fighting The Power in his time off, got a concession of £9000 a year.
For the moment. This is just the tuition fee, it should be pointed out the cost of living is also rising in the UK, far more quickly than student loans are, and the method for assessing student loans is horrible, especially if your parents dont support you (like they didnt in my case).
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 25, 2010, 03:21:58 PM
And they're probably even wearing jeans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_in_Jeans) ! :lulz:
Wait, Fibonacci was in that book? i have to reread!
Quote from: Subetai on November 26, 2010, 08:47:53 AM
From £3,300 a year to...well, it's not exactly clear as it hasn't been finalized yet, but it is believed Progressive Hero Nick Clegg, Deputy PM, Fighting The Power in his time off, got a concession of £9000 a year.
For the moment. This is just the tuition fee, it should be pointed out the cost of living is also rising in the UK, far more quickly than student loans are, and the method for assessing student loans is horrible, especially if your parents dont support you (like they didnt in my case).
They're nearly tripling it? Wow, that is kind of insane.
Yep. And doing worse to foreign students. I cant remember exactly what, but it was designed to basically price foreign students out of the UK market. When I was at Uni, it was about £10,000 a year for them.
Tuition goes up pretty much every year in the US, but it's always by a relatively small percentage.
Except in California. They keep increasing it little by little, a few weeks apart. I think it's close to 25% now.
Quote from: Subetai on November 26, 2010, 08:47:53 AM
From £3,300 a year to...well, it's not exactly clear as it hasn't been finalized yet, but it is believed Progressive Hero Nick Clegg, Deputy PM, Fighting The Power in his time off, got a concession of £9000 a year.
For the moment. This is just the tuition fee, it should be pointed out the cost of living is also rising in the UK, far more quickly than student loans are, and the method for assessing student loans is horrible, especially if your parents dont support you (like they didnt in my case).
In American Money: That's an increase of $5152.62 to $14052.60 per year, not including room and board, which (assuming similar prices to what I'm paying here in the U.S. at Uni) would add something like $4k per year for food, and similar for board (for convenience, I'm going off of dining hall meal plans and the room and board I pay: neither of these cover time over Christmas or the summer). That's an increase from $13k/year to $22k/year. That's essentially the difference between a mid-range college in the US and pushing past even the best public schools towards the cost of low end private schools. It doesn't begin to scratch the costs of the top tier private schools (Yale, Cornell, MIT, etc. are est. $40-50k/year, including room/board), but definitely goes from "mostly affordable" to "FUUUUUUUUUUUU---".
Yeah, it's not exactly wonderful.
On the other hand, if Scotland, who sets their own prices apart from the National Parliament, can freeze or only slightly rise their prices, we may see a second Scottish Enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Enlightenment).
Well, probably not. But I'd like it, since I'm saving up to do my postgrad degree there.
Quote from: Gray Jester on November 26, 2010, 06:19:50 PM
In American Money: That's an increase of $5152.62 to $14052.60 per year, not including room and board, which (assuming similar prices to what I'm paying here in the U.S. at Uni) would add something like $4k per year for food, and similar for board (for convenience, I'm going off of dining hall meal plans and the room and board I pay: neither of these cover time over Christmas or the summer). That's an increase from $13k/year to $22k/year. That's essentially the difference between a mid-range college in the US and pushing past even the best public schools towards the cost of low end private schools. It doesn't begin to scratch the costs of the top tier private schools (Yale, Cornell, MIT, etc. are est. $40-50k/year, including room/board), but definitely goes from "mostly affordable" to "FUUUUUUUUUUUU---".
Though with those schools, you can get pretty solid help. I was planning to go to a private school that cost $48k, with room, board, books, etc. I ended up being ten grand short and that was because I was too stupid at the time to apply for scholarships.
Scholarships are pretty rare on the ground here...my Uni offered exactly two, and you either had to be Scottish or a golf player (at St Andrews no less) to qualify.
There is also a student hardship fund, but those rarely have more than £10,000 in the pot any given year, as I know from a friend who needs it every single year.
I think higher education should be free, but hard as fuck to get into, and admittance should be based 2/3 on persistence and determination.
My feelings run along a similar line of thought. I think there should be a fuckton of higher education funding available to Universities...but to actually qualify for the money, the University needs to display insanely high standards of teaching and research. A lot of Universities, from what I can see, do no actual research and exist as barely legitimate diploma mills, churning out thousands of graduates who "studied" soft subjects which could be easily taught to that depth at A Level and so do nothing but devalue qualifications from those facilities with higher standards.
Part of this, ironically, is the fault of the Tories. For a long time, they had a focus on "Latin for it's own sake", which basically meant "teach something difficult and boring as to introduce the kids to Discipline". Nowadays, Latin has fallen out of favour, except for in the case of Boris Johnson, Mayor of London, who's obsfucating stupidity is played so well even I have a hard time telling when he is being serious. In the place of Latin nowadays though is Literacy and Maths.
Now, don't get me wrong. These are important, core subjects. But, under Tory and Labour insistence, they've taken up so much of the timetable it's virtually impossible to teach anything else. At the primary school where I am, those two subjects make up nearly 60% of all available teaching time, which is just insane. It leaves 40% of the timetable to teach history, science, PSRE, geography, languages, art, music etc No wonder kids run off to do Media Studies the first chance they're given.
It's pretty similar here; kids spend four years in "high school" where they are slowly, painfully taught subjects that most people could easily learn in a single full-time college term. Colleges and universities churn out people with worthless yet increasingly expensive degrees.
I RESENT THAT
BDS,
Media Studies student. (among other things)
Quote from: Nigel on November 27, 2010, 05:06:55 PM
It's pretty similar here; kids spend four years in "high school" where they are slowly, painfully taught subjects that most people could easily learn in a single full-time college term. Colleges and universities churn out people with worthless yet increasingly expensive degrees.
This and most high schools suck. My high school had wonderful science and foreign language teachers, but the head of the English department didn't speak proper English and one of my history teachers was a heroin addict.
it had to hit one generation. just kinda bummed out it's mine.
it's brilliant. the people who are most affected by this can't vote.
not that voting seems to do much anyway. the only difference between our 3 ''main'' parties at the moment is their leaders' accents. There are no good parties around for us younguns. even the loonies are gone now. I wonder: Why can't we have a cat as the PM? :lulz:
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 26, 2010, 05:52:59 PM
Tuition goes up pretty much every year in the US, but it's always by a relatively small percentage.
Keep telling yourself that, bucko.
(http://satyagraha.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/inflation-factors-2.jpg)
http://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2009/07/14/college-tuition-hyperinflation/
Quote from: Telarus on November 28, 2010, 12:07:13 AM
Keep telling yourself that, bucko.
(http://satyagraha.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/inflation-factors-2.jpg)
http://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2009/07/14/college-tuition-hyperinflation/
compared to a 300 percent increase that's tiny.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 28, 2010, 12:11:43 AM
compared to a 300 percent increase that's tiny.
How is a one thousand percent increase tiny compared to a three hundred percent increase? :?
Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2010, 12:33:31 AM
How is a one thousand percent increase tiny compared to a three hundred percent increase? :?
Because the 1000 percent increase takes 30 years and is implemented as a continual gradual increase. the 300 percent one is in one year.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 28, 2010, 12:51:30 AM
Because the 1000 percent increase takes 30 years and is implemented as a continual gradual increase. the 300 percent one is in one year.
Yes, but how much has it gone up total in the last 30 years?
We're having a vote on whether to triple the price of tuition fees, tomorrow.*
This could actually collapse the coalition. That's how important this is. There have been proper, well planned and apparently spontaneous student protests for weeks now. Left wing Lib Dems, such as Norman Baker and Lynne Featherstone (both Cabinet members) are threatening not to vote, and others are thinking of abstaining. Labour looks set to vote against it as well. The Tories alone don't have that much of a majority in Parliament...and this vote is going to be very tight.
*Maybe. Labour are seeing if they can delay it.
Scratch that. Featherstone has been made to recant her "Left-Deviationism" on TV. Seriously, she looked like one of those guys at the Stalin show trials, been made to confess her crimes. It was kinda painful to watch.
Quote from: Cain on December 08, 2010, 06:42:55 PM
Scratch that. Featherstone has been made to recant her "Left-Deviationism" on TV. Seriously, she looked like one of those guys at the Stalin show trials, been made to confess her crimes. It was kinda painful to watch.
Interesting times, no?
Oh yeah. There are going to be hundreds of thousands of students protesting in London tomorrow, as well.
I hope if the vote goes through, they lose their shit and wreck the place. They may as well, the media will say they did regardless.
Quote from: Cain on December 08, 2010, 06:46:24 PM
Oh yeah. There are going to be hundreds of thousands of students protesting in London tomorrow, as well.
I hope if the vote goes through, they lose their shit and wreck the place. They may as well, the media will say they did regardless.
And the cops are gonna thump 'em either way, so why the fuck not?
Exactly. There was some pretty good footage of a cop punching a kid (literally a kid, couldn't have been older than 16) in the face for...well, being in the way, as far as I can see.
Plus "kettling". Because nothing says "the children are the future" like herding them into an area they cannot escape from, denying them access to food, water and facilities for long periods and then mass arresting them, usually with a liberal dose of beatings for anyone still strong enough to object.
Quote from: Cain on December 08, 2010, 06:59:56 PM
Exactly. There was some pretty good footage of a cop punching a kid (literally a kid, couldn't have been older than 16) in the face for...well, being in the way, as far as I can see.
Plus "kettling". Because nothing says "the children are the future" like herding them into an area they cannot escape from, denying them access to food, water and facilities for long periods and then mass arresting them, usually with a liberal dose of beatings for anyone still strong enough to object.
NICE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettling
Wow. You have some real scumbags in your parliament.
On the plus side, the Lib Dems and Tories have just lost the youth vote for a generation. So its not all bad.
Quote from: Cain on December 08, 2010, 07:22:47 PM
On the plus side, the Lib Dems and Tories have just lost the youth vote for a generation. So its not all bad.
I think you're being optimistic concerning human nature and memory.
Maybe. But it only has to last another 4 years. Labour are utterly hopeless still, and the vote was split several dozen ways last time...next election is going to be fantastic. Especially now the BNP are bankrupt.
The Lib Dems will be hit hard by this though, as much of their support is student based. Incredibly so, based on my own experience. They've just gutted their core supporters for the sake of the Tories, who mostly refer to them as "squishes" when they're not around and generally try to undermine them at every turn.
Quote from: Cain on December 08, 2010, 07:28:27 PM
Maybe. But it only has to last another 4 years. Labour are utterly hopeless still, and the vote was split several dozen ways last time...next election is going to be fantastic. Especially now the BNP are bankrupt.
The Lib Dems will be hit hard by this though, as much of their support is student based. Incredibly so, based on my own experience. They've just gutted their core supporters for the sake of the Tories, who mostly refer to them as "squishes" when they're not around and generally try to undermine them at every turn.
That sounds awfully familiar.
Quote from: Cain on December 08, 2010, 06:42:55 PM
Scratch that. Featherstone has been made to recant her "Left-Deviationism" on TV. Seriously, she looked like one of those guys at the Stalin show trials, been made to confess her crimes. It was kinda painful to watch.
woot! How beautifully Orwellian.
Welcome to the Brave New World of our coalition government.
I'm not going to pretend I know Mrs Featherstone, but I've seen her writing on several issues before, and I know she leans closer to the "Compass Group" led by the Labour Jon Cruddas MP than she does with the coalition government. So I can only assume the Whips are handing out marching orders and pulling out every kind of threat they have to insure compliance. She is the Equalities Minister (a position she is very well suited for, IMO) and it is entirely likely that little whispers about a Cabinet reshuffle have been heard, and she thinks it is her overriding duty to try and moderate Tory excesses by holding onto that position for as long as she can.
Which is of course, the trap. Because whatever it is they did, they now know she has a weakness, they will exploit that weakness for further votes in their favour. Sadly, acting like North Korea is the only viable option in Parliament, especially if you have a healthy hold on your constituency, acting rational only leads you down a dark and dismal path of compromise and negation.
Highlights of the protest so far:
3 police offers "seriously injured", apparently.
The police say there has been "provoked violence" from the students (Freudian Slip? Absolutely).
A rubbish tip has been set on fire on the Victoria Embankment
Riot police are allegedly moving into Parliament Square. Mounted officers are already present.
Students are reporting indiscriminate police violence.
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2010, 04:58:58 PM
Highlights of the protest so far:
3 police offers "seriously injured", apparently.
The police say there has been "provoked violence" from the students (Freudian Slip? Absolutely).
A rubbish tip has been set on fire on the Victoria Embankment
Riot police are allegedly moving into Parliament Square. Mounted officers are already present.
Students are reporting indiscriminate police violence.
I'm shocked.
One Junior Lib Dem MP has resigned from the Government in protest. However, 27+ defections are needed, plus the opposition parties to hold their nerve for it to be defeated.
7 arrests.
Police are whining on TV that because students deviated from the agreed upon route they now have to beat the buggers into submission. Also apparently people have travelled to London for the purpose of committing violent disorder. So we know why the riot police are there, at least.
Two Lib Dem Junior MPs resigned now.
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2010, 05:06:05 PM
7 arrests.
Police are whining on TV that because students deviated from the agreed upon route they now have to beat the buggers into submission. Also apparently people have travelled to London for the purpose of committing violent disorder. So we know why the riot police are there, at least.
Good grief.
Vote is starting.
It's gonna be a long night in London.
Tory MP has resigned as a ministerial aide in protest.
Government wins by 21 votes.
Fuck.
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2010/12/coming-out-of-hibernation-education-cuts-edition (for American readers who want more background).
So this raises tuition by 300%?
FUCK YES, STUDENT LOANS. :x
Fuck that. I just gave up my hopes for studying in England :/
Nice job creating a vast class separation Britain. Long Live the Queen.
Dalekk, under the old system you would've been paying £10,000 a year anyway. And with the new restrictions on foreign students, your chances of getting in were not very likely, regardless of how this vote went (yes, the government restricted foreign students, who bring in more money than students from the UK, then said there wasn't enough money. Too fucking funny).
Also, the students are on a rampage. And by that, they mean a few threw some stones at riot police, you know, the ones with shields, did some rather shitty graffiti and smashed up a couple of phone boxes. The police are keeping the press back while kicking the shit out of students.
Well done, protesters.
No one is talking about the austerity programs, and the 300% increase of tuition.
They're all talking about the shocking (shocking!) attack on Bonnie Prince Charles' car by a "spinter" protest group.
Luckily, Charles' security staff didn't open fire, and no one was hurt, or arrested.
Hey, wait a minute... if I wanted to distract the media from the main issues, I'd probably get a few undercover officers to set up a mock attack on an important figure...
That was going to happen regardless.
When the protestors took over the Tory Party HQ, one of them threw a fire extinguisher off of the building. All of the rest of the protestors told the idiot responsible to fuck off (you can hear it on the versions of the newsreels which don't actually omit the audio)....and the news for days was about how violent anarchist gangs are running the protests and will murder you in your bed.
Even the BBC was getting in on the game, dutifully reporting police casualties (including the one where a mounted officer, after charging unarmed, peacefully protesting students, fell off his horse) while ignoring student casualties entirely.
However, there is a silver lining. The coalition government has an 80 seat majority. However it only won by 21 votes. So we're talking a very slim margin of control over Parliament here. As soon as they lose a vote, expect Labour and left-leaning Lib Dems to start talking about a vote of no confidence...
Heh.
According to former Met Police Chief Brian Paddick, Charles was warned beforehand not to take the route he did.
Furthermore, the media had been reporting for hours that Regent Street and the surrounding area was swamped by students.
And I know for a fact that the car they took is their least armoured vehicle. Charles has a Bentley that is built like a tank, the protesters could've bashed away on that happily without making a dent.
So I am inclined to be suspicious for his reasons for travelling in that car, along that route, that night.
I don't wonder about it at all, Cain.
I automatically resist the idea that Prince Charles could be involved in any kind of conspiracy on the basis of his last name being "Windsor" and the Royal Staff being lickspittles and idiots.
I concede it's possible, especially with the evidence above. It's just my mind rejects the idea on an emotional, gut level.
Quote from: Cain on December 10, 2010, 07:58:14 PM
I automatically resist the idea that Prince Charles could be involved in any kind of conspiracy on the basis of his last name being "Windsor" and the Royal Staff being lickspittles and idiots.
I concede it's possible, especially with the evidence above. It's just my mind rejects the idea on an emotional, gut level.
He might not be, but his driver might.
He wouldn't have to be aware of it at all.