Principia Discordia

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-lampshade-that-drives-its-owners-mad-strange-truth-behind-20th-centurys-most-disturbing-object-2117357.html

It was the judgement of the laboratory that the minor profile might be due to handling, but that the major profile was from the lampshade itself. Dr Bever stated that, on this evidence, he would be prepared to appear in court to testify that the lampshade was of human origin. The skin is that of a white person, or persons; the precise ethnicity cannot be ascertained.

This is one incredibly interesting story.

Holy shit... I thought that was a myth.

The Holocaust Museum in St. Petersburg, FL was rumored to have one somewhere, but refused to display it. I know never saw it in my visits, but I did see the boxcar. That was enough to make me feel reaaaaaaally creeped out.

Why am I not surprised that it was in a yard sale in NOLA?

Jacobson tells me that he decided to donate his shade to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, in ' Washington DC. It welcomes an average of 5,000 visitors a day, who come to view its chilling installations, and audiovisual accounts recorded by survivors. One film includes footage of the so-called "Buchenwald Table", a collection of shrunken heads and other horrors, among which is a lampshade. It is not Jacobson's.

When he met Diane Saltzman, then head of collections at the museum, Jacobson recalls, "She said that none of the lampshades that have surfaced over the past 50 years have proved to be real," and maintained that the DNA test "proved nothing".

Saltzman argued, said Jacobson, that what she termed "distractions" such as human lampshades had created "fodder for the Holocaust deniers". She suggested, not unreasonably, that further laboratory tests might precisely date the lampshade's frame or stitching, but the Holocaust Museum, which has a private endowment of almost $200m and annual revenue in the region of $80m a year, declined to assist in the process. "Even if you could document this 100 per cent," Saltzman argued, "it would still be a myth."

The bolded part gets me.

All it would prove is there was one, not that they were being mass produced

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
All it would prove is there was one, not that they were being mass produced

Huh?

Quote from: Charley Brown on December 15, 2010, 07:28:56 PM

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
All it would prove is there was one, not that they were being mass produced

Huh?

That one exists means that one Nazi was crazy... the "myth" is that lots of these existed which can't be proven with the existence of one.

Of course, I would argue that one found 60 years after the fact, a 1/4 of the way around the world is some pretty strong circumstantial evidence that more than one might have existed.

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 15, 2010, 07:32:05 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on December 15, 2010, 07:28:56 PM

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
All it would prove is there was one, not that they were being mass produced

Huh?

That one exists means that one Nazi was crazy... the "myth" is that lots of these existed which can't be proven with the existence of one.

Of course, I would argue that one found 60 years after the fact, a 1/4 of the way around the world is some pretty strong circumstantial evidence that more than one might have existed.

Thanks, sometimes my comprehension level fails.

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
All it would prove is there was one, not that they were being mass produced

Nobody claimed they were being mass produced.  As far as anyone can tell, the wife one of the commandants of Buchenwald was the only person to have done this...She and her husband were executed for doing it, by the Germans.

So I'm not sure what your fucking point was.

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
All it would prove is there was one, not that they were being mass produced

Nobody has ever argued that they were mass-produced. They could not, practically speaking, have been mass-produced. The confirmation of one, however, proves the otherwise apocryphal stories of their existence.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2010, 07:36:26 PM

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
All it would prove is there was one, not that they were being mass produced

Nobody claimed they were being mass produced.  As far as anyone can tell, the wife one of the commandants of Buchenwald was the only person to have done this...She and her husband were executed for doing it, by the Germans.

So I'm not sure what your fucking point was.

This one?

The Bitch of Buchenwald, Ilse Koch

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2010, 07:41:14 PM
Nobody has ever argued that they were mass-produced. They could not, practically speaking, have been mass-produced. The confirmation of one, however, proves the otherwise apocryphal stories of their existence.

The stories were never apocryphal.  The Nazis who executed the commandant and his wife kept very meticulous records.

Still though, even as a "myth", it's a powerful one, and something that my mom told me YEARS ago...that she had heard of lampshades made from tattooed human skin from her grandfather (my great-grandfather, who died before I was born.)

It wouldn't surprise me if the government ordered a lot of this artifacts to be destroyed before any could have been collected as evidence.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2010, 07:36:26 PM

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
All it would prove is there was one, not that they were being mass produced

Nobody claimed they were being mass produced.  As far as anyone can tell, the wife one of the commandants of Buchenwald was the only person to have done this...She and her husband were executed for doing it, by the Germans.

So I'm not sure what your fucking point was.

I think that was an attempt to explain the statement by the holocaust museum... I don't think anyone here was trying to say that it was a good argument.

No different then churches with skulls,
except maybe they don't feel guilty where the parts came from.

And no I don't agree with the museum,


PS <3 rat

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:50:48 PM
No different then churches with skulls,
except maybe they don't feel guilty where the parts came from.

So, the Nazis weren't so bad after all, eh?

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:50:48 PM
No different then churches with skulls,
except maybe they don't feel guilty where the parts came from.

And no I don't agree with the museum,


PS <3 rat

The churches keep the skulls because they believe in magic or animism or something like it. The Nazi's kept human bits because they were horrible people and thought they were fun trinkets.

I wouldn't compare a holy relic with a Nazi genocidal artifact...

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 15, 2010, 07:53:39 PM

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:50:48 PM
No different then churches with skulls,
except maybe they don't feel guilty where the parts came from.

And no I don't agree with the museum,


PS <3 rat

The churches keep the skulls because they believe in magic or animism or something like it. The Nazi's kept human bits because they were horrible people and thought they were fun trinkets.

More to the point, the churches usually waited until people were done with the skulls before using them as decorations.

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:50:48 PM
No different then churches with skulls,
except maybe they don't feel guilty where the parts came from.

And no I don't agree with the museum,


PS <3 rat

Really?

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2010, 07:54:49 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 15, 2010, 07:53:39 PM

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:50:48 PM
No different then churches with skulls,
except maybe they don't feel guilty where the parts came from.

And no I don't agree with the museum,


PS <3 rat

The churches keep the skulls because they believe in magic or animism or something like it. The Nazi's kept human bits because they were horrible people and thought they were fun trinkets.

More to the point, the churches usually waited until people were done with the skulls before using them as decorations.

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Quote from: Suu on December 15, 2010, 07:54:17 PM
I wouldn't compare a holy relic with a Nazi genocidal artifact...

Yeah, but Yatto hates Israel, so he has to defend the Nazis.  Not sure why, but that seems to be the trend among "anti-Zionists", etc.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2010, 07:55:43 PM

Quote from: Suu on December 15, 2010, 07:54:17 PM
I wouldn't compare a holy relic with a Nazi genocidal artifact...

Yeah, but Yatto hates Israel, so he has to defend the Nazis.  Not sure why, but that seems to be the trend among "anti-Zionists", etc.

Oh. That's who he is.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2010, 07:54:49 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 15, 2010, 07:53:39 PM

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 07:50:48 PM
No different then churches with skulls,
except maybe they don't feel guilty where the parts came from.

And no I don't agree with the museum,


PS <3 rat

The churches keep the skulls because they believe in magic or animism or something like it. The Nazi's kept human bits because they were horrible people and thought they were fun trinkets.

More to the point, the churches usually waited until people were done with the skulls before using them as decorations.

I think that is probably the most important point!!!

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2010, 07:54:49 PM
More to the point, the churches usually waited until people were done with the skulls before using them as decorations.

Good point, the churches have generally tossed the ones they lopped off early.

:horrormirth:

Guess finding grandpas ears would have been better example

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 09:19:43 PM
Guess finding grandpas ears would have been better example

Yeah, whatever.  Tell us all about how the holocaust never happened, Yatto.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2010, 07:55:43 PM

Quote from: Suu on December 15, 2010, 07:54:17 PM
I wouldn't compare a holy relic with a Nazi genocidal artifact...

Yeah, but Yatto hates Israel, so he has to defend the Nazis.  Not sure why, but that seems to be the trend among "anti-Zionists", etc.

O yuo... guess you missed the guilty part. Humans keep parts of their dead, fuck I assume monkeys do as well

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 09:24:40 PM
Humans keep parts of their dead, fuck I assume monkeys do as well

Well, that totally exonerates the Commandant and his wife, then. 

Nothing to see here, folks, move along.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2010, 09:22:06 PM

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 09:19:43 PM
Guess finding grandpas ears would have been better example

Yeah, whatever.  Tell us all about how the holocaust never happened, Yatto.

Didn't say it didn't happen ever, just saying we aren't high and mighty. And considering Hilter cited armenian genocide in modern day turkey as excuse that no one would really care about the jews as proof he was a bad man.

This makes my head hurt.

Quote from: Able on December 15, 2010, 09:28:00 PM

Didn't say it didn't happen ever, just saying we aren't high and mighty. And considering Hilter cited armenian genocide in modern day turkey as excuse that no one would really care about the jews as proof he was a bad man.

The Armenian massacre happened 95 years ago.  And most of us aren't posting from Istanbul.  I'm not sure what your point is.

You could make a better comparison with the fate of the American Indians, but I still don't see how that makes the lampshade thing okay.  

I mean, other than your hatred of Jews, I don't see any point to your posts on the subject at all.

Quote from: Charley Brown on December 15, 2010, 09:29:08 PM
This makes my head hurt.

It's simple, really. 

Yatto hates Israel, so nothing that happened to Jews counts.

Quote from: Suu on December 15, 2010, 07:54:17 PM
I wouldn't compare a holy relic with a Nazi genocidal artifact...

Both are relics, just the other one is unholy or demonic

Terrible human behavior has nothing to do with "demons" or "holiness".

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2010, 09:48:08 PM
Terrible human behavior has nothing to do with "demons" or "holiness".

Especially if it happened to Jews.  Then it's just, you know, business as usual.

Were the commandant and his wife were executed for the lampshade, or for something else?

Embezzlement I believe, of all things.

In spite of the many atrocities known to have been committed in the concentration camps, the Nazis did not officially sanction cruelty to the prisoners. All punishments and executions had to be cleared with the main office in Oranienburg. An SS officer named Dr. Konrad Morgen, who was a judge in a local court, was asked by a government official to investigate a possible murder and black market activities in the Buchenwald camp. Col. Koch had been engaging in both, and he was eventually arrested in August 1943 for inciting the murder of two prisoners and for embezzlement. According to The Buchenwald Report, the murder charge against Col. Koch was that he had ordered the execution of hospital orderly Walter Krämer and his assistant, who had treated him for syphilis, so that they would not reveal his secret, but had falsely claimed that they were executed for political reasons.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/EasternGermany/Buchenwald/KarlKoch.html

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2010, 09:48:08 PM
Terrible human behavior has nothing to do with "demons" or "holiness".

Considering they heavily used Christian symbolism, psychopath or possessed there was dark forces at work.

I hate monotheists and Israel as well, but i do not think this truly horrible lampshade can be compared to christians storing skulls in a different place.
That may not make any sense to you, Able, but that is just the reality of the situation.
Deal with it. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging)

Quote from: Regret on December 16, 2010, 12:27:27 AM
I hate monotheists and Israel as well, but i do not think this truly horrible lampshade can be compared to christians storing skulls in a different place.
That may not make any sense to you, Able, but that is just the reality of the situation.
Deal with it. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging)

wut

Yeah. Murdering someone and making a lampshade out of their skin is pretty different from honoring your dead by building shrines from their skulls.

The former is like killing a prostitute and making a wig from her scalp. The latter is like keeping Grandma's ashes in an urn on the mantel.

For the record, I, too, think Israel is a political abomination and a human rights nightmare.

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 12:33:40 AM
For the record, I, too, think Israel is a political abomination and a human rights nightmare.

But that's a political opinion, not anti-semitism.

Also...


WTF IS WITH HITLER STUFF TODAY?!

Everywhere I look I see topics on the Holocaust or Hitler...I even heard 2 separate conversations on it at school.  :?

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 12:30:55 AM

Quote from: Regret on December 16, 2010, 12:27:27 AM
I hate monotheists and Israel as well, but i do not think this truly horrible lampshade can be compared to christians storing skulls in a different place.
That may not make any sense to you, Able, but that is just the reality of the situation.
Deal with it. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging)

wut

I hate monotheists (afaik thats just christians, jews and muslims right? or am i missing some? If so I apologize to them for including them in my blind hatred) because they base their beliefs on a story book that is basically saying that mass-murder and genocide are acceptable behaviour for a loving father figure.
Israel: what Nigel said. Did you know it is the only western country with racist immigration laws?

I don't mind political opinions, but I don't agree with hating people based on their religion...and if there's something in the Abrahamic faiths about genocide, then I obviously missed it.

I've never seen, or read anything that relates to, "Kill everyone in this ethnic race because they aren't like you" ANYWHERE in the Torah, Bible, or Koran. All 3 of the religions on the fundamental level say killing is a sin, and you shouldn't judge entire groups of people based on their radicals.

Something about killing the first born sons or after exodus they accidently jericho
Weren't servants buried with their masters alive so they could serve in the afterlife as their slave.


Re lamp :D
Its not the objects fault its just mass. And while I wouldn't visit a museum just to see such object. Don't see why historian would reject something of historic value even if it showcases the worst of humanity unless it was the carbon dating proves it was of a later day.

Quote from: Able on December 16, 2010, 01:13:41 AM
Something about killing the first born sons or after exodus they accidently jericho
Weren't servants buried with their masters alive so they could serve in the afterlife as their slave.

First and foremost...NEVER TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY. The Hebrew were mercenaries for one, not slaves, and two, no proof was ever made of the Plagues of Egypt except for a period of darkness which happened during the Old Kingdom...Like a thousand years before Exodus was written about. It very well could have been a form of propaganda, like a lot of the stories are.

I mean, it's not like the US have ever been racist or used propaganda or anything...

(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/italy-falls-to-allies-6.jpg)(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3337/77/4/90901938932/n90901938932_2477758_7105072.jpg)

Judah and Israel were apart of Canaan. Although archaeological finds in Jericho suggest destruction and abandonment for a period of time, no one is entirely sure of what happened. If the Bible/Torah is correct, then Joshua did lead the Israelites to victory as the dates match up. It's one of those sites that do in fact link up.


The idea of the EGYPTIANS burying the slaves and servants alive has not been proven. There's a good chance that they willingly went and underwent a very religious sacrificial rite before hand, but still no proof. That was a stupid point to bring up.

While not taking the bible literally is good advice, that doesn't keep Christians from doing just that.

But doesn't mean it doesn't contain truths, Charleston Heston used his magic stick to learn when low tide was. Just like the mercs who left egypt used the sword to carve a nice little settlement.

Don't think they really did anything other cultures didn't do, they were just the only ones to record their history for so long. And brought up egyptians since they were very much apart of this triad of mono faiths

Quote from: Requia ☣ on December 16, 2010, 02:02:34 AM
While not taking the bible literally is good advice, that doesn't keep Christians from doing just that.

Fundamentalists aren't Christians, they're an abomination to the human race. Radicals of ANY faith are, and you can't base your opinion on the actions of a minority. "I hate Jews because they come from Israel", isn't a good thing to say. Right there with, "I hate Christians because they are down with genocide." Chances are everyone on this board knows a Christian. Ask them what they think of the topic next time you see them.

I grew up Catholic, the fucking faith that wrote the thing, and I was never once told that it was literal.  Even when I was in a Catholic school. It's metaphorical and should be studied as a philosophical text, not a history book. There ARE historical facts in there, and as a historian myself I admire that and find things very fascinating, but often the story surrounded said fact can be a little wishy washy. GS's family...totally Baptist (of the Northern variety), still go to church...His mom can't stand fundies. We were talking about it the other day.

Jews...I grew up around them. Not one of them every told me that war or genocide was right. What I WAS told, however, by a dear Rabbi friend of the family, was that it only takes one sour grape to spoil a whole bunch.

Muslims:  Jews and Christians are "people of the Book", and should be protected and loved. There are 2 jihad: The Greater and the Lesser. The GREATER Jihad, is one's personal battle against sin and temptation. The Lesser is a struggle fought with a community. Guess which one gets you to Heaven faster? It's not fighting wars, that's for sure.

It's not a fundamentalist thing, almost all protestant faiths profess a belief in biblical literalism.

Quote from: Requia ☣ on December 16, 2010, 02:22:16 AM
It's not a fundamentalist thing, almost all protestant faiths profess a belief in biblical literalism.

Broad stroke is broad.

You also won't find any biblical literalists that will endorse genocide, rather they will come up with convoluted apologetics to justify why (insert slaughter of large amounts of people by God here) wasn't really Genocide.

Quote from: Requia ☣ on December 16, 2010, 02:25:47 AM
You also won't find any biblical literalists that will endorse genocide, rather they will come up with convoluted apologetics to justify why (insert slaughter of large amounts of people by God here) wasn't really Genocide.

This , however, is true.

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 02:21:17 AM
Fundamentalists aren't Christians, they're an abomination to the human race.

TRUTH. And good post.

In short, it's not religion, it's PEOPLE.

There, fuck you all...If I don't eat within the next half hour I'm going to pass out.

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 02:29:54 AM
In short, it's not religion, it's PEOPLE.

There, fuck you all...If I don't eat within the next half hour I'm going to pass out.

For the record: I agree with you, Suu.  :)

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 02:29:54 AM
In short, it's not religion, it's PEOPLE.

There, fuck you all...If I don't eat within the next half hour I'm going to pass out.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Requia ☣ on December 16, 2010, 02:22:16 AM
It's not a fundamentalist thing, almost all protestant faiths profess a belief in biblical literalism.

I'm going to have to disagree with that one. Sorry.

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 02:38:25 AM

Quote from: Requia ☣ on December 16, 2010, 02:22:16 AM
It's not a fundamentalist thing, almost all protestant faiths profess a belief in biblical literalism.

I'm going to have to disagree with that one. Sorry.

I'm going to concede it, as I can't find a source I trust.

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 12:35:31 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 12:33:40 AM
For the record, I, too, think Israel is a political abomination and a human rights nightmare.

But that's a political opinion, not anti-semitism.

Yep. Hating Israel as a political entity is vastly different from hating Jews. Sometimes people have a really hard time recognizing or accepting that, though.

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 03:57:34 AM

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 12:35:31 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 12:33:40 AM
For the record, I, too, think Israel is a political abomination and a human rights nightmare.

But that's a political opinion, not anti-semitism.

Yep. Hating Israel as a political entity is vastly different from hating Jews. Sometimes people have a really hard time recognizing or accepting that, though.

didn't you hear? disagreement with Israel or anything it does is the new anti-semitism.

obviously.

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 12:33:40 AM
For the record, I, too, think Israel is a political abomination and a human rights nightmare.

Yeah, but I don't see you defending Nazis or hating on Jews.

Personally, I think the state of Israel is about the worst "ally" we've ever had.  But my buddy back in Chicago, Steve Goldman, well, he doesn't do a damned thing to Palistinians.  He just kinda goes to work and tries to raise his daughter (He's doing a great job of that, too.  She's probably going to Westpoint.).

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 12:56:36 PM

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 03:57:34 AM

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 12:35:31 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 12:33:40 AM
For the record, I, too, think Israel is a political abomination and a human rights nightmare.

But that's a political opinion, not anti-semitism.

Yep. Hating Israel as a political entity is vastly different from hating Jews. Sometimes people have a really hard time recognizing or accepting that, though.

didn't you hear? disagreement with Israel or anything it does is the new anti-semitism.

obviously.

That's not what happened here.  Fuck off, you scabby little twit.

Met a few Israelis in college.  They were pretty ambivalent about the whole thing.  They were mostly interested in drinking, clubbing, and didn't see what the big deal was about guns or military service.  (A quiet evening with the family was cleaning their pistols while watching "90210")  About as much political interest as most people our age back then.

Just to point out, bringing up Israel in the context of talking about Jews helps to reinforce the link between the two in an unfair way.

There are more Jews in America than there are in Israel, for example.  Israel is not representative of Judaism, nor does it have anything like a stranglehold on Jewish identity, as much as it likes to pretend to.

The best way to deal with this problem is to tell people to stop it when they bring up Israel when talking about Jews and Judaism more generally, as there is really no legitimate reason to do so.

Quote from: Cain on December 16, 2010, 02:11:41 PM
Just to point out, bringing up Israel in the context of talking about Jews helps to reinforce the link between the two in an unfair way.

There are more Jews in America than there are in Israel, for example.  Israel is not representative of Judaism, nor does it have anything like a stranglehold on Jewish identity, as much as it likes to pretend to.

The best way to deal with this problem is to tell people to stop it when they bring up Israel when talking about Jews and Judaism more generally, as there is really no legitimate reason to do so.

As people who have met both will tell you: There is a huge difference between being Israeli and being Jewish. They aren't mutually exclusive, but they are nowhere near the same thing either.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 01:44:58 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 12:56:36 PM

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 03:57:34 AM

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 12:35:31 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 12:33:40 AM
For the record, I, too, think Israel is a political abomination and a human rights nightmare.

But that's a political opinion, not anti-semitism.

Yep. Hating Israel as a political entity is vastly different from hating Jews. Sometimes people have a really hard time recognizing or accepting that, though.

didn't you hear? disagreement with Israel or anything it does is the new anti-semitism.

obviously.

That's not what happened here.  Fuck off, you scabby little twit.

wasn't talking to you, dick.

Especially since 20% of the population is Arab.  16% of the population are Muslim, 2% are Christian and 1.5% are Druze.

The Israeli government likes to portray itself as a "Jewish and democratic state", it simply isn't so.  20% of the Jewish population is secular in the first place, and many of the ethnically Russian Israelis have, uh, dubious backgrounds, to put it mildly.

The couple Israelis I've met were fucking tapped. Wonderfully nice people for the most part, but just CRAZY.

Then again, so were the Bosnians and Serbians I went to school with in Florida. It's not cool seeing pictures of 13 year olds in the army holding semi-autos bigger than their frames. Unfortunately, that was their lives, and that's how they had to adapt to live. They had no love of that lifestyle, I assure you...It's one of those things we REALLY take for granted living in the United States.

To clarify lest it should be misinterpreted, I was agreeing with your statements, Cain. Rereading it, it could be taken as trying to correct you, which would be incredibly stupid of me, since you know way more about all of this shit than I ever will.  :)

No, I guessed that was what you were saying, I just decided to build on it, as it is another way to break the Jewish = Israeli/Israeli = Jewish mental linkage that annoys me so, and one I should have brought up in the previous post.

Quote from: Cain on December 16, 2010, 02:29:57 PM
No, I guessed that was what you were saying, I just decided to build on it, as it is another way to break the Jewish = Israeli/Israeli = Jewish mental linkage that annoys me so, and one I should have brought up in the previous post.

Oh, I know. I was just making sure that you and everyone else understood where I was coming from.  :)

BTW, today is the anniversary of the Battle of the Bulge.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 02:23:59 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 01:44:58 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 12:56:36 PM

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 03:57:34 AM

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 12:35:31 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 12:33:40 AM
For the record, I, too, think Israel is a political abomination and a human rights nightmare.

But that's a political opinion, not anti-semitism.

Yep. Hating Israel as a political entity is vastly different from hating Jews. Sometimes people have a really hard time recognizing or accepting that, though.

didn't you hear? disagreement with Israel or anything it does is the new anti-semitism.

obviously.

That's not what happened here.  Fuck off, you scabby little twit.

wasn't talking to you, dick.

Naw.  You were just poisoning the well a bit.

I think we should go back to the horrible artifact linked in the OP. Cause that's what this discussion was really about.

Quote from: ϗ on December 16, 2010, 04:27:34 PM
I think we should go back to the horrible artifact linked in the OP. Cause that's what this discussion was really about.

If it's provable, I don't see how the museum could deny it, but I could see why they'd want to. 

It'd likely never again see the light of day if given to them and as well it shouldn't.  History wouldn't miss it a bit if it ended up in a fire, IMO.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:29:41 PM

Quote from: ϗ on December 16, 2010, 04:27:34 PM
I think we should go back to the horrible artifact linked in the OP. Cause that's what this discussion was really about.

If it's provable, I don't see how the museum could deny it, but I could see why they'd want to. 

It'd likely never again see the light of day if given to them and as well it shouldn't.  History wouldn't miss it a bit if it ended up in a fire, IMO.

Like I said, if the rumors surrounded the Holocaust Museum in St. Pete are correct, then they have one, but won't display it.

I think that it SHOULD be displayed...people need to see this. It's horrible, it's the shit nightmares are made of, but FFS this really happened and minds will never be changed unless the truth is brought to the light.

We always talk about the Horrible Truth™, this is about as HORRIBLE TRUTH as it gets.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:29:41 PM

Quote from: ϗ on December 16, 2010, 04:27:34 PM
I think we should go back to the horrible artifact linked in the OP. Cause that's what this discussion was really about.

If it's provable, I don't see how the museum could deny it, but I could see why they'd want to. 

It'd likely never again see the light of day if given to them and as well it shouldn't.  History wouldn't miss it a bit if it ended up in a fire, IMO.

Yeah, let's just forget it ever happened. 

Right?

Yeah. I want to see it. I want to show it to people. This shit is horrology to the max.

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 04:36:38 PM
I think that it SHOULD be displayed...people need to see this. It's horrible, it's the shit nightmares are made of, but FFS this really happened and minds will never be changed unless the truth is brought to the light.

We always talk about the Horrible Truth™, this is about as HORRIBLE TRUTH as it gets.

FUCKING THIS.

There's already a few million fuckwits running around saying the holocaust never happened.  Hide the fucking Truth, and it WILL bite you in the ass.  Fucking deal with it.  See history the way it WAS, not the way we WISH it was.

Quote from: ϗ on December 16, 2010, 04:39:14 PM
Yeah. I want to see it. I want to show it to people. This shit is horrology to the max.

Title it "The Price of Complacency" and put the fucker on display.

I agree that it shouldn't be hidden.... However, if I had to deal with Holocaust deniers that take tiny bits of information and extrapolate loads of bullshit... then maybe I would feel more like the museum.

Person A: "Nazi's made lampshades out of Jews!!!"

Denier : "No, a Nazi made a lampshade out of a Jew... this is just like that bullshit about gassing millions of them... I don't deny that some Nazis were bad people and may have done bad things, but this claim of systematic horror and abuse is simply a zionist plot. Look at they facts, they have exactly ONE lampshade and we can't even verify that its jewish. It could have been from a Gypsy or a Jehovah's Witness or a homosexual or it could simply be from a sick and twisted German serial killer. Just like everything else in the "holocaust"

I wouldn't want to deal with that sort of BS thinking   :argh!:

My reaction to the OP:  :x

But, yes. Display that shit. Find more of those fuckers. Put them in every goddamn household in 'Murrica for one fucking week.  Make people look at it. Make people fucking touch it. People are horrible cunts and they need to be fucking reminded of it.

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 04:49:38 PM
I agree that it shouldn't be hidden.... However, if I had to deal with Holocaust deniers that take tiny bits of information and extrapolate loads of bullshit... then maybe I would feel more like the museum.

Person A: "Nazi's made lampshades out of Jews!!!"

Denier : "No, a Nazi made a lampshade out of a Jew... this is just like that bullshit about gassing millions of them... I don't deny that some Nazis were bad people and may have done bad things, but this claim of systematic horror and abuse is simply a zionist plot. Look at they facts, they have exactly ONE lampshade and we can't even verify that its jewish. It could have been from a Gypsy or a Jehovah's Witness or a homosexual or it could simply be from a sick and twisted German serial killer. Just like everything else in the "holocaust"

I wouldn't want to deal with that sort of BS thinking   :argh!:

You don't deal with it by hiding evidence.

You drag everything out into the light of day.  And then you laugh at the fuckwads who try to say that the most documented event in human history never happened.

As for the average Joe, who are they going to believe?  General Patton or some shitwad with 3 teeth on a compound in Idaho?

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 04:38:29 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:29:41 PM

Quote from: ϗ on December 16, 2010, 04:27:34 PM
I think we should go back to the horrible artifact linked in the OP. Cause that's what this discussion was really about.

If it's provable, I don't see how the museum could deny it, but I could see why they'd want to. 

It'd likely never again see the light of day if given to them and as well it shouldn't.  History wouldn't miss it a bit if it ended up in a fire, IMO.

Yeah, let's just forget it ever happened. 

Right?

people do horrible things to people and we dont put the entire evidence of how depraved humanity can be on display so we don't forget that those people have been out there and will probably be out there into the future.

you can remember without displaying and thus giving a forum to the lowest of human scum and their handy work. 

We're not going to agree on this.  I think this particular monster should get no display of his depravity in a public place.  I think the proper thing to do would be to do the best possible to track down the family through DNA and if not possible, then give the remains a proper burial.

I'm not very spiritual at all with regards to afterlive's but that seems to me the proper respect to show the remains of a human who likely died in the worst possible of ways.


ETA:  Whoops, hit modify when I went to quote.  Post restored - Roger

I think Holocaust Deniers should be gassed.

...Just saying.


My 5th grade teacher was a denier. I still remember clear as day 18 years ago, "I'm supposed to teach you about this, but I believe the Holocaust never happened." Then we went to the museum on a field trip.  :|

It WAS a Catholic School, but I definitely covered it in previous grades (we first learned about it in 3rd grade...well, the best you can teach 8 year olds, anyway). She was an older lady too, and from BOSTON. I couldn't stand her.  My parents were PISSED.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 04:38:29 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:29:41 PM

Quote from: ϗ on December 16, 2010, 04:27:34 PM
I think we should go back to the horrible artifact linked in the OP. Cause that's what this discussion was really about.

If it's provable, I don't see how the museum could deny it, but I could see why they'd want to. 

It'd likely never again see the light of day if given to them and as well it shouldn't.  History wouldn't miss it a bit if it ended up in a fire, IMO.

Yeah, let's just forget it ever happened. 

Right?

people do horrible things to people and we dont put the entire evidence of how depraved humanity can be on display so we don't forget that those people have been out there and will probably be out there into the future.

you can remember without displaying and thus giving a forum to the lowest of human scum and their handy work.  

We're not going to agree on this.  I think this particular monster should get no display of his depravity in a public place.  I think the proper thing to do would be to do the best possible to track down the family through DNA and if not possible, then give the remains a proper burial.

I'm not very spiritual at all with regards to afterlive's but that seems to me the proper respect to show the remains of a human who likely died in the worst possible of ways.

Right.  So forget it ever happened.  Pretend that shit like that never occurred, because we all know it can't happen again, right?

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 04:36:38 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:29:41 PM

Quote from: ϗ on December 16, 2010, 04:27:34 PM
I think we should go back to the horrible artifact linked in the OP. Cause that's what this discussion was really about.

If it's provable, I don't see how the museum could deny it, but I could see why they'd want to.  

It'd likely never again see the light of day if given to them and as well it shouldn't.  History wouldn't miss it a bit if it ended up in a fire, IMO.

Like I said, if the rumors surrounded the Holocaust Museum in St. Pete are correct, then they have one, but won't display it.

I think that it SHOULD be displayed...people need to see this. It's horrible, it's the shit nightmares are made of, but FFS this really happened and minds will never be changed unless the truth is brought to the light.

We always talk about the Horrible Truth™, this is about as HORRIBLE TRUTH as it gets.

Wins an internet for this post.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 04:56:08 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 04:38:29 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:29:41 PM

Quote from: ϗ on December 16, 2010, 04:27:34 PM
I think we should go back to the horrible artifact linked in the OP. Cause that's what this discussion was really about.

If it's provable, I don't see how the museum could deny it, but I could see why they'd want to. 

It'd likely never again see the light of day if given to them and as well it shouldn't.  History wouldn't miss it a bit if it ended up in a fire, IMO.

Yeah, let's just forget it ever happened. 

Right?

people do horrible things to people and we dont put the entire evidence of how depraved humanity can be on display so we don't forget that those people have been out there and will probably be out there into the future.

you can remember without displaying and thus giving a forum to the lowest of human scum and their handy work.  

We're not going to agree on this.  I think this particular monster should get no display of his depravity in a public place.  I think the proper thing to do would be to do the best possible to track down the family through DNA and if not possible, then give the remains a proper burial.

I'm not very spiritual at all with regards to afterlive's but that seems to me the proper respect to show the remains of a human who likely died in the worst possible of ways.

Right.  So forget it ever happened.  Pretend that shit like that never occurred, because we all know it can't happen again, right?

you put words in my mouth so often, I'm convinced you must have your hand up my ass.

I didn't say forget it ever happened.  There's plenty of evidence to remind and teach future generations.

I give a fuck what deniers think, but do you honestly think one fucking lamp is going to change those people's minds when all of the evidence up until that didn't do it?

I don't.  I think those fucks will continue on believing what they believe.

The way I see it is this...the number of people who acknowledge the Holocaust happened WAY outweighs the deniers. It's a CRIMINAL OFFENSE in Germany to deny it.

Maybe that's where it needs to go. Instead of the Smithsonian, let the German government display it. Is Buchenwald a museum?

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
you can remember without displaying and thus giving a forum to the lowest of human scum and their handy work. 

Incidentally, by this standard, we should destroy all pictures, filmreels, and accounts of the holocaust.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:59:16 PM
you put words in my mouth so often, I'm convinced you must have your hand up my ass.

I didn't say forget it ever happened.  There's plenty of evidence to remind and teach future generations.

I give a fuck what deniers think, but do you honestly think one fucking lamp is going to change those people's minds when all of the evidence up until that didn't do it?

I don't.  I think those fucks will continue on believing what they believe.

I don't expect to change the denier's minds.

I am interested in ensuring that the evidence is there, testably there, so that other people can see it and decide for themselves.

And I didn't put words in your mouth.  You said destroy the evidence.

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 04:59:56 PM
It's a CRIMINAL OFFENSE in Germany to deny it.

I feel that policy is a mistake.  It's counterproductive, not to mention a violation of basic human rights.

Even low-forehead morons have the right to speak what passes for their minds.

If that were my ass strapped to that lampshade I would want it on a traveling display so people would never forget. Ever.

Also, the reason they won't change their minds is because they hate Jews, and they went out on an orgy of confirmation bias.

In the worst cases, it's so they can try to start the whole nightmare over again (The ANP in America, the BNP in Britain), and in most cases, it's because if they don't hate Jews, they don't feel they hate Israel enough (Yatto, for example), so they are FORCED by their worldview to deny that it occurred, in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Quote from: Charley Brown on December 16, 2010, 05:06:34 PM
If that were my ass strapped to that lampshade I would want it on a traveling display so people would never forget. Ever.

Especially given the political developments of the last decade in the United States and England.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 05:04:13 PM

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 04:59:56 PM
It's a CRIMINAL OFFENSE in Germany to deny it.

I feel that policy is a mistake.  It's counterproductive, not to mention a violation of basic human rights.

Even low-forehead morons have the right to speak what passes for their minds.

...They still have neo-Nazi rallies there though.  :|

Quote from: Charley Brown on December 16, 2010, 05:06:34 PM
If that were my ass strapped to that lampshade I would want it on a traveling display so people would never forget. Ever.

:potd:

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 05:08:19 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 05:04:13 PM

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 04:59:56 PM
It's a CRIMINAL OFFENSE in Germany to deny it.

I feel that policy is a mistake.  It's counterproductive, not to mention a violation of basic human rights.

Even low-forehead morons have the right to speak what passes for their minds.

...They still have neo-Nazi rallies there though.  :|

We have them here.  There's morons everywhere you go.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
people do horrible things to people and we dont put the entire evidence of how depraved humanity can be on display so we don't forget that those people have been out there and will probably be out there into the future.

you can remember without displaying and thus giving a forum to the lowest of human scum and their handy work. 

No, you really can't. People are fucking stupid. They need their noses rubbed in this shit. It may appear to be cognitive dissonance based on my recent comments on religion, but there are times when guilt is an appropriate feeling, and this is most certainly one of them.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
We're not going to agree on this.  I think this particular monster should get no display of his depravity in a public place.  I think the proper thing to do would be to do the best possible to track down the family through DNA and if not possible, then give the remains a proper burial.

I'm not very spiritual at all with regards to afterlive's but that seems to me the proper respect to show the remains of a human who likely died in the worst possible of ways.


ETA:  Whoops, hit modify when I went to quote.  Post restored - Roger

Why? Why does anyone deserve a proper burial? What constitutes a proper burial? Buried six feet under? Cremated? Entombed with a shitload of riches? Eaten by your family? Who decides what's right to do to a body or piece of a body?

Displaying the lampshade as evidence that horrible atrocities happened in WWII is only half the point, not unlike the rest of the museum.

The other half the point is proof to anyone who ever pushed the Horrible Truth to the back of their mind because it's too gross, too nasty, to deal with on a daily basis. Proof that human beings can do horrible nightmarish things, and have done. And, perhaps more importantly, that other human beings, not necessarily so unlike you and I in many ways, can let these horrible nightmarish things happen simply by deciding to shrug their shoulders and busy themselves with day to day concerns.

Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 16, 2010, 05:10:15 PM
No, you really can't. People are fucking stupid. They need their noses rubbed in this shit. It may appear to be cognitive dissonance based on my recent comments on religion, but there are times when guilt is an appropriate feeling, and this is most certainly one of them.

:motorcycle:

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 05:07:10 PM
they are FORCED by their worldview to deny that it occurred, in the face of overwhelming evidence.

NOW LOOK WHAT JEW MADE ME DO!
                   \
(http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/615/Goebbels.jpg)

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 04:54:16 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 04:49:38 PM
I agree that it shouldn't be hidden.... However, if I had to deal with Holocaust deniers that take tiny bits of information and extrapolate loads of bullshit... then maybe I would feel more like the museum.

Person A: "Nazi's made lampshades out of Jews!!!"

Denier : "No, a Nazi made a lampshade out of a Jew... this is just like that bullshit about gassing millions of them... I don't deny that some Nazis were bad people and may have done bad things, but this claim of systematic horror and abuse is simply a zionist plot. Look at they facts, they have exactly ONE lampshade and we can't even verify that its jewish. It could have been from a Gypsy or a Jehovah's Witness or a homosexual or it could simply be from a sick and twisted German serial killer. Just like everything else in the "holocaust"

I wouldn't want to deal with that sort of BS thinking   :argh!:

You don't deal with it by hiding evidence.

You drag everything out into the light of day.  And then you laugh at the fuckwads who try to say that the most documented event in human history never happened.

As for the average Joe, who are they going to believe?  General Patton or some shitwad with 3 teeth on a compound in Idaho?

I don't disagree with you Roger, I was just saying I can see why the Holocaust Museum may not really care to add an outlyer to their pieces which will likely get way more focus and provide yet more fodder for the deniers... most of the deniers I've seen at this point don't argue "nothing bad happened" but rather "The claims are highly overstated".

And what the average Joe will believe? Beats the fuck outta me at this point. FOX news has the highest number of viewers by orders of magnitude over all the other news channels...

Personally, I think it should be in a museum if its proven to be from Buchenwald. However, I can't imagine the mindfuck that running that museum and dealing with denier shitheads would be.

Quote from: Cainad on December 16, 2010, 05:10:56 PM
Displaying the lampshade as evidence that horrible atrocities happened in WWII is only half the point, not unlike the rest of the museum.

The other half the point is proof to anyone who ever pushed the Horrible Truth to the back of their mind because it's too gross, too nasty, to deal with on a daily basis. Proof that human beings can do horrible nightmarish things, and have done. And, perhaps more importantly, that other human beings, not necessarily so unlike you and I in many ways, can let these horrible nightmarish things happen simply by deciding to shrug their shoulders and busy themselves with day to day concerns.

While Pvt Manning is tortured, for example.

Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 05:11:46 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 05:07:10 PM
they are FORCED by their worldview to deny that it occurred, in the face of overwhelming evidence.

NOW LOOK WHAT JEW MADE ME DO!
                   \
http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/615/Goebbels.jpg

:lulz:

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 05:11:54 PM
Personally, I think it should be in a museum if its proven to be from Buchenwald. However, I can't imagine the mindfuck that running that museum and dealing with denier shitheads would be.

Well, yeah.  Remember that 80+ year old shitbag that walked in with a rifle and started blazing away?  What, three years ago or so?  Security guard shot him, IIRC.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 05:12:31 PM

Quote from: Cainad on December 16, 2010, 05:10:56 PM
Displaying the lampshade as evidence that horrible atrocities happened in WWII is only half the point, not unlike the rest of the museum.

The other half the point is proof to anyone who ever pushed the Horrible Truth to the back of their mind because it's too gross, too nasty, to deal with on a daily basis. Proof that human beings can do horrible nightmarish things, and have done. And, perhaps more importantly, that other human beings, not necessarily so unlike you and I in many ways, can let these horrible nightmarish things happen simply by deciding to shrug their shoulders and busy themselves with day to day concerns.

While Pvt Manning is tortured, for example.

ITS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD CITIZEN!

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 05:14:39 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 05:12:31 PM

Quote from: Cainad on December 16, 2010, 05:10:56 PM
Displaying the lampshade as evidence that horrible atrocities happened in WWII is only half the point, not unlike the rest of the museum.

The other half the point is proof to anyone who ever pushed the Horrible Truth to the back of their mind because it's too gross, too nasty, to deal with on a daily basis. Proof that human beings can do horrible nightmarish things, and have done. And, perhaps more importantly, that other human beings, not necessarily so unlike you and I in many ways, can let these horrible nightmarish things happen simply by deciding to shrug their shoulders and busy themselves with day to day concerns.

While Pvt Manning is tortured, for example.

ITS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD CITIZEN!

That, to me, is what makes it SO horrible.  They do these horrible things in our name.

And we do nothing.

Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 16, 2010, 05:10:15 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
people do horrible things to people and we dont put the entire evidence of how depraved humanity can be on display so we don't forget that those people have been out there and will probably be out there into the future.

you can remember without displaying and thus giving a forum to the lowest of human scum and their handy work.  

No, you really can't. People are fucking stupid. They need their noses rubbed in this shit. It may appear to be cognitive dissonance based on my recent comments on religion, but there are times when guilt is an appropriate feeling, and this is most certainly one of them.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
We're not going to agree on this.  I think this particular monster should get no display of his depravity in a public place.  I think the proper thing to do would be to do the best possible to track down the family through DNA and if not possible, then give the remains a proper burial.

I'm not very spiritual at all with regards to afterlive's but that seems to me the proper respect to show the remains of a human who likely died in the worst possible of ways.


ETA:  Whoops, hit modify when I went to quote.  Post restored - Roger

Why? Why does anyone deserve a proper burial? What constitutes a proper burial? Buried six feet under? Cremated? Entombed with a shitload of riches? Eaten by your family? Who decides what's right to do to a body or piece of a body?

From what I understand, Jews have very specific rituals that includes bathing the remains before burial and such. Unless they go through great lengths to determine who the person was by mitochondrial DNA (which is only maternal...) then there's really no point to pursue it. That's a ridiculous amount of work.

IT BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!
\
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/dire51/museum_1.png)

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 05:14:28 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 05:11:54 PM
Personally, I think it should be in a museum if its proven to be from Buchenwald. However, I can't imagine the mindfuck that running that museum and dealing with denier shitheads would be.

Well, yeah.  Remember that 80+ year old shitbag that walked in with a rifle and started blazing away?  What, three years ago or so?  Security guard shot him, IIRC.

Last year. Yeah... horrible.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 05:15:32 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 05:14:39 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 05:12:31 PM

Quote from: Cainad on December 16, 2010, 05:10:56 PM
Displaying the lampshade as evidence that horrible atrocities happened in WWII is only half the point, not unlike the rest of the museum.

The other half the point is proof to anyone who ever pushed the Horrible Truth to the back of their mind because it's too gross, too nasty, to deal with on a daily basis. Proof that human beings can do horrible nightmarish things, and have done. And, perhaps more importantly, that other human beings, not necessarily so unlike you and I in many ways, can let these horrible nightmarish things happen simply by deciding to shrug their shoulders and busy themselves with day to day concerns.

While Pvt Manning is tortured, for example.

ITS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD CITIZEN!

That, to me, is what makes it SO horrible.  They do these horrible things in our name.

And that's why I tend to argue that government is a useful fiction. So individuals can do Horrible things and shift all the responsibility to "the government, the people, the nation".

It wasn't Nazi's that made a lampshade, it was a sick fucking individual. It wasn't Americans that tortured prisoners, abused prisoners, killed innocent people for sport... it was individual fuckwad's that should be tried individually for their actions no matter WHO THE FUCK told them it was OK.

The government "represents" me about as well as a Characiture, drawn by a half blind victim of cerebral palsy. :(

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 05:19:35 PM
And that's why I tend to argue that government is a useful fiction.

No argument here.  I've always maintained that it doesn't actually exist.

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 05:15:42 PM

Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 16, 2010, 05:10:15 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
people do horrible things to people and we dont put the entire evidence of how depraved humanity can be on display so we don't forget that those people have been out there and will probably be out there into the future.

you can remember without displaying and thus giving a forum to the lowest of human scum and their handy work.  

No, you really can't. People are fucking stupid. They need their noses rubbed in this shit. It may appear to be cognitive dissonance based on my recent comments on religion, but there are times when guilt is an appropriate feeling, and this is most certainly one of them.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
We're not going to agree on this.  I think this particular monster should get no display of his depravity in a public place.  I think the proper thing to do would be to do the best possible to track down the family through DNA and if not possible, then give the remains a proper burial.

I'm not very spiritual at all with regards to afterlive's but that seems to me the proper respect to show the remains of a human who likely died in the worst possible of ways.


ETA:  Whoops, hit modify when I went to quote.  Post restored - Roger

Why? Why does anyone deserve a proper burial? What constitutes a proper burial? Buried six feet under? Cremated? Entombed with a shitload of riches? Eaten by your family? Who decides what's right to do to a body or piece of a body?

From what I understand, Jews have very specific rituals that includes bathing the remains before burial and such. Unless they go through great lengths to determine who the person was by mitochondrial DNA (which is only maternal...) then there's really no point to pursue it. That's a ridiculous amount of work.

IT BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!
\
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/dire51/museum_1.png

Yeah, the Jewish funerary rites are pretty complex.

But my point is, DP would probably find it offensive that my remains are to be shot out of a cannon or stuffed and mounted. Or maybe, I want my family to devour my corpse to inherit my knowledge and skills. I haven't really thought about that....


Also:  :lulz:

Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 16, 2010, 05:22:26 PM

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 05:15:42 PM

Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 16, 2010, 05:10:15 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
people do horrible things to people and we dont put the entire evidence of how depraved humanity can be on display so we don't forget that those people have been out there and will probably be out there into the future.

you can remember without displaying and thus giving a forum to the lowest of human scum and their handy work.  

No, you really can't. People are fucking stupid. They need their noses rubbed in this shit. It may appear to be cognitive dissonance based on my recent comments on religion, but there are times when guilt is an appropriate feeling, and this is most certainly one of them.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
We're not going to agree on this.  I think this particular monster should get no display of his depravity in a public place.  I think the proper thing to do would be to do the best possible to track down the family through DNA and if not possible, then give the remains a proper burial.

I'm not very spiritual at all with regards to afterlive's but that seems to me the proper respect to show the remains of a human who likely died in the worst possible of ways.


ETA:  Whoops, hit modify when I went to quote.  Post restored - Roger

Why? Why does anyone deserve a proper burial? What constitutes a proper burial? Buried six feet under? Cremated? Entombed with a shitload of riches? Eaten by your family? Who decides what's right to do to a body or piece of a body?

From what I understand, Jews have very specific rituals that includes bathing the remains before burial and such. Unless they go through great lengths to determine who the person was by mitochondrial DNA (which is only maternal...) then there's really no point to pursue it. That's a ridiculous amount of work.

IT BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!
\
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/dire51/museum_1.png

Yeah, the Jewish funerary rites are pretty complex.

But my point is, DP would probably find it offensive that my remains are to be shot out of a cannon or stuffed and mounted. Or maybe, I want my family to devour my corpse to inherit my knowledge and skills. I haven't really thought about that....


Also:  :lulz:

wouldn't find it at all offensive.  whatever you want to do with your body is your right.  I'm contemplating being cremated and poured into one of those reef balls, such is my love for the ocean.

What's proper is what the person wants, and lacking the person to say what they want, I believe that should fall to the family if they can be found (however unlikely the possibility)

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 05:27:11 PM

Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 16, 2010, 05:22:26 PM

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 05:15:42 PM

Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 16, 2010, 05:10:15 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
people do horrible things to people and we dont put the entire evidence of how depraved humanity can be on display so we don't forget that those people have been out there and will probably be out there into the future.

you can remember without displaying and thus giving a forum to the lowest of human scum and their handy work.  

No, you really can't. People are fucking stupid. They need their noses rubbed in this shit. It may appear to be cognitive dissonance based on my recent comments on religion, but there are times when guilt is an appropriate feeling, and this is most certainly one of them.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
We're not going to agree on this.  I think this particular monster should get no display of his depravity in a public place.  I think the proper thing to do would be to do the best possible to track down the family through DNA and if not possible, then give the remains a proper burial.

I'm not very spiritual at all with regards to afterlive's but that seems to me the proper respect to show the remains of a human who likely died in the worst possible of ways.


ETA:  Whoops, hit modify when I went to quote.  Post restored - Roger

Why? Why does anyone deserve a proper burial? What constitutes a proper burial? Buried six feet under? Cremated? Entombed with a shitload of riches? Eaten by your family? Who decides what's right to do to a body or piece of a body?

From what I understand, Jews have very specific rituals that includes bathing the remains before burial and such. Unless they go through great lengths to determine who the person was by mitochondrial DNA (which is only maternal...) then there's really no point to pursue it. That's a ridiculous amount of work.

IT BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!
\
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/dire51/museum_1.png

Yeah, the Jewish funerary rites are pretty complex.

But my point is, DP would probably find it offensive that my remains are to be shot out of a cannon or stuffed and mounted. Or maybe, I want my family to devour my corpse to inherit my knowledge and skills. I haven't really thought about that....


Also:  :lulz:

wouldn't find it at all offensive.  whatever you want to do with your body is your right.  I'm contemplating being cremated and poured into one of those reef balls, such is my love for the ocean.

What's proper is what the person wants, and lacking the person to say what they want, I believe that should fall to the family if they can be found (however unlikely the possibility)

And until then...museum.

And considering that the DNA can't even come up with race... its unlikely that we could definitively tie it back to a specific group that was persecuted by the Nazis. Maybe Jewish, or homosexual or JW or Pacifist or a Von Trapp Family Singer.

Burying it would just be burying a lampshade at this point. Maybe some paperwork from Buchenwald will come to light and name the victim, but thats pretty unlikely.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 05:27:11 PM
wouldn't find it at all offensive.  whatever you want to do with your body is your right.  I'm contemplating being cremated and poured into one of those reef balls, such is my love for the ocean.

What's proper is what the person wants, and lacking the person to say what they want, I believe that should fall to the family if they can be found (however unlikely the possibility)

That was mostly tongue-in-cheek, because if you would have been so easily offended you wouldn't have stuck around here this long.  :wink:

Serious point: damn the wishes of the dead or his/her impossible to find family. It's not a matter of what is respectful and what isn't in this scenario (and if we open that can of worms in other cases it gets fucked anyway), that kind of thinking stopped being applicable when someone decided this person would make a good lamp.Shove this down humanity's self-righteous, escapist, little throats.

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 05:32:02 PM
And considering that the DNA can't even come up with race... its unlikely that we could definitively tie it back to a specific group that was persecuted by the Nazis. Maybe Jewish, or homosexual or JW or Pacifist or a Von Trapp Family Singer.

Burying it would just be burying a lampshade at this point. Maybe some paperwork from Buchenwald will come to light and name the victim, but thats pretty unlikely.

If it was tattooed, we could definitely rule out Jew. It would most likely have been Roma, which it's not, which makes it harder.

I don't know enough about mitochondrial DNA or what it codes for, but I know it accounts for 50% of the individual's genome, and that it's entirely maternal. It's much harder to trace.

Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 16, 2010, 05:35:29 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 05:27:11 PM
wouldn't find it at all offensive.  whatever you want to do with your body is your right.  I'm contemplating being cremated and poured into one of those reef balls, such is my love for the ocean.

What's proper is what the person wants, and lacking the person to say what they want, I believe that should fall to the family if they can be found (however unlikely the possibility)

That was mostly tongue-in-cheek, because if you would have been so easily offended you wouldn't have stuck around here this long.  :wink:

Serious point: damn the wishes of the dead or his/her impossible to find family. It's not a matter of what is respectful and what isn't in this scenario (and if we open that can of worms in other cases it gets fucked anyway), that kind of thinking stopped being applicable when someone decided this person would make a good lamp.Shove this down humanity's self-righteous, escapist, little throats.

I see your view and I conceed a part of me agrees with it.

especially this part:

Shove this down humanity's self-righteous, escapist, little throats.

HOLY SHIT WHAT IS WITH ALL THE REASONABLE DISCUSSION LATELY?!?!?!
:lulz:

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 06:08:53 PM
HOLY SHIT WHAT IS WITH ALL THE REASONABLE DISCUSSION LATELY?!?!?!
:lulz:

FUCK YOU MY MOM DIED FROM HAVING A REASONABLE DISCUSSION!

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 06:08:53 PM
HOLY SHIT WHAT IS WITH ALL THE REASONABLE DISCUSSION LATELY?!?!?!
:lulz:

I have lost my hate and anger. I'm very sorry.

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 05:40:53 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 05:32:02 PM
And considering that the DNA can't even come up with race... its unlikely that we could definitively tie it back to a specific group that was persecuted by the Nazis. Maybe Jewish, or homosexual or JW or Pacifist or a Von Trapp Family Singer.

Burying it would just be burying a lampshade at this point. Maybe some paperwork from Buchenwald will come to light and name the victim, but thats pretty unlikely.

If it was tattooed, we could definitely rule out Jew. It would most likely have been Roma, which it's not, which makes it harder.

I don't know enough about mitochondrial DNA or what it codes for, but I know it accounts for 50% of the individual's genome, and that it's entirely maternal. It's much harder to trace.

I don't think it's anywhere near 50%. More like a fraction of a percent.

My understanding is that it is (kind of, sorta, maybe) analogous to the BIOS to nuclear DNA's operating system.

Wikipedia says Mitocondrial DNA consists of only 37 genes.

Yeah, I knew it wasn't much.

Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on December 16, 2010, 06:19:07 PM

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 05:40:53 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 05:32:02 PM
And considering that the DNA can't even come up with race... its unlikely that we could definitively tie it back to a specific group that was persecuted by the Nazis. Maybe Jewish, or homosexual or JW or Pacifist or a Von Trapp Family Singer.

Burying it would just be burying a lampshade at this point. Maybe some paperwork from Buchenwald will come to light and name the victim, but thats pretty unlikely.

If it was tattooed, we could definitely rule out Jew. It would most likely have been Roma, which it's not, which makes it harder.

I don't know enough about mitochondrial DNA or what it codes for, but I know it accounts for 50% of the individual's genome, and that it's entirely maternal. It's much harder to trace.

I don't think it's anywhere near 50%. More like a fraction of a percent.

My understanding is that it is (kind of, sorta, maybe) analogous to the BIOS to nuclear DNA's operating system.

Wikipedia says Mitocondrial DNA consists of only 37 genes.

How many slacks and/or khakis?

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 06:21:00 PM

Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on December 16, 2010, 06:19:07 PM

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 05:40:53 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 05:32:02 PM
And considering that the DNA can't even come up with race... its unlikely that we could definitively tie it back to a specific group that was persecuted by the Nazis. Maybe Jewish, or homosexual or JW or Pacifist or a Von Trapp Family Singer.

Burying it would just be burying a lampshade at this point. Maybe some paperwork from Buchenwald will come to light and name the victim, but thats pretty unlikely.

If it was tattooed, we could definitely rule out Jew. It would most likely have been Roma, which it's not, which makes it harder.

I don't know enough about mitochondrial DNA or what it codes for, but I know it accounts for 50% of the individual's genome, and that it's entirely maternal. It's much harder to trace.

I don't think it's anywhere near 50%. More like a fraction of a percent.

My understanding is that it is (kind of, sorta, maybe) analogous to the BIOS to nuclear DNA's operating system.

Wikipedia says Mitocondrial DNA consists of only 37 genes.

How many slacks and/or khakis?

Last estimate puts it somewhere around 80 cargo shorts.

[WARNING: EXTREMELY TENUOUSLY REMEMBERED HIGH SCHOOL-LEVEL BIO PRESENT IN THE FOLLOWING POST. PROCEED WITH CAUTION A GRAIN OF SALT.]

Nuclear DNA, as far as I know, is the majority of what we consider to be an individual's genetic code. It's the part that lies roughly in the center of each cell.

Mitochondrial DNA lies within the cellular organelles called mitochondria, separate from the nucleus of the cell. In other words, the DNA for an extremely critical component of basically all animal cells is actually part of that specific organelle, not the rest of the cell. For some reason, mitochondrial DNA is only inherited through the mother, so it's possible to trace back maternal family lines for quite a few generations, because it remains essentially unchanged while the rest of the DNA goes through the food processor that is cellular meiosis.

And that's as far as I'm willing to go without doing some internets research.

Is because sperms do not has mitocondriums.

Eggs has mitochondriums.

"people do horrible things to people and we dont put the entire evidence of how depraved humanity can be on display"

Explain why the unabombers shack is being sold for at least three times its market value

Roger FYI

I actually support a jewish state, history says
they were there before the empire evicted them
Just like I would support taking away land from a whiteman
to give it to a tribe, even if they use it to build a casino

Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on December 16, 2010, 06:32:31 PM
Is because sperms do not has mitocondriums.

Eggs has mitochondriums.

:cn:

Sperm is actually packed full of mitochondria, way more than the egg, but its the egg's mitochondria that gets replicated.

Quote from: Able on December 16, 2010, 08:44:01 PM
Roger FYI

I actually support a jewish state, history says
they were there before the empire evicted them
Just like I would support taking away land from a whiteman
to give it to a tribe, even if they use it to build a casino

Actually, if you read Josephus, the Roman Empire was amazingly tolerant, until they couldn't be tolerant anymore.  It's a fairly disgusting read, and Emperor Titus didn't give them half the kicking around they deserved.

You can get Josephus in the Penguin translation for a few bucks at Borders or Barnes & Nobel.  It's basically the history of the Middle East boiled down into about 10 years.

Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 16, 2010, 08:48:58 PM

Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on December 16, 2010, 06:32:31 PM
Is because sperms do not has mitocondriums.

Eggs has mitochondriums.

:cn:

Sperm is actually packed full of mitochondria, way more than the egg, but its the egg's mitochondria that gets replicated.

Hmmm... Internets agree.

I did not know that.

I believe it's because the sperms mitochondria is located in the tail, which is not absorbed by the ovum.

Cool, biology lesson ITT.
...
I should've known this.

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 09:32:49 PM
I believe it's because the sperms mitochondria is located in the tail, which is not absorbed by the ovum.

As mitochondria are primarily energy production hot-spots, that doesn't surprise me.

And here I was, getting yelled at for going off topic.   :lol:

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 08:49:16 PM

Quote from: Able on December 16, 2010, 08:44:01 PM
Roger FYI

I actually support a jewish state, history says
they were there before the empire evicted them
Just like I would support taking away land from a whiteman
to give it to a tribe, even if they use it to build a casino

Actually, if you read Josephus, the Roman Empire was amazingly tolerant, until they couldn't be tolerant anymore.  It's a fairly disgusting read, and Emperor Titus didn't give them half the kicking around they deserved.

You can get Josephus in the Penguin translation for a few bucks at Borders or Barnes & Nobel.  It's basically the history of the Middle East boiled down into about 10 years.

Yes, he is a very good book to read... though there are definitely some bits that you have to take with a bit of salt (the ability he has to really vilify his enemies is worthy of FOX News).

However, his picture of the situation in Israel at the time was pretty damned interesting (and pretty damning).

I mean if we take Jewish History per the Pentatuch and Mishnah, they were pretty shitty to their neighbors and then later Judea was pretty shitty to the other ten tribes and their neighbors. But then they were pretty shitty to their God too (You saved us, now we will worship this statue of a calf... You saved us, now we will go have an orgy and worship Baal... You saved us, now we will go worship the Queen of Heaven...)

Josephus tends to support the view that they were a pretty freakin' crazy nation at the turn of the millennium.

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 10:02:21 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 08:49:16 PM

Quote from: Able on December 16, 2010, 08:44:01 PM
Roger FYI

I actually support a jewish state, history says
they were there before the empire evicted them
Just like I would support taking away land from a whiteman
to give it to a tribe, even if they use it to build a casino

Actually, if you read Josephus, the Roman Empire was amazingly tolerant, until they couldn't be tolerant anymore.  It's a fairly disgusting read, and Emperor Titus didn't give them half the kicking around they deserved.

You can get Josephus in the Penguin translation for a few bucks at Borders or Barnes & Nobel.  It's basically the history of the Middle East boiled down into about 10 years.

Yes, he is a very good book to read... though there are definitely some bits that you have to take with a bit of salt (the ability he has to really vilify his enemies is worthy of FOX News).

However, his picture of the situation in Israel at the time was pretty damned interesting (and pretty damning).

I mean if we take Jewish History per the Pentatuch and Mishnah, they were pretty shitty to their neighbors and then later Judea was pretty shitty to the other ten tribes and their neighbors. But then they were pretty shitty to their God too (You saved us, now we will worship this statue of a calf... You saved us, now we will go have an orgy and worship Baal... You saved us, now we will go worship the Queen of Heaven...)

Josephus tends to support the view that they were a pretty freakin' crazy nation at the turn of the millennium.

Remember the Canaanites?

Neither do I.

Are they the ones who drank the koolaid in 33ad?

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 10:01:28 PM
And here I was, getting yelled at for going off topic.   :lol:

I thought going off topic was a time-honored tradition here.

Quote from: Cainad on December 16, 2010, 06:28:40 PM
[WARNING: EXTREMELY TENUOUSLY REMEMBERED HIGH SCHOOL-LEVEL BIO PRESENT IN THE FOLLOWING POST. PROCEED WITH CAUTION A GRAIN OF SALT.]

Nuclear DNA, as far as I know, is the majority of what we consider to be an individual's genetic code. It's the part that lies roughly in the center of each cell.

Mitochondrial DNA lies within the cellular organelles called mitochondria, separate from the nucleus of the cell. In other words, the DNA for an extremely critical component of basically all animal cells is actually part of that specific organelle, not the rest of the cell. For some reason, mitochondrial DNA is only inherited through the mother, so it's possible to trace back maternal family lines for quite a few generations, because it remains essentially unchanged while the rest of the DNA goes through the food processor that is cellular meiosis.

And that's as far as I'm willing to go without doing some internets research.

Cainad:

The other reason it's so much easier to get mtDNA out of a specimen (whatever it may be) is that there's so much more of it. Sure, there are many cells in a body, but most cells have multiple mitochondria, and many have great amounts. Makes it very easy to take a small sample of tissue, run PCR, and get a sequence which is useful for determination. The DNA still degrades over time, but there's that much more of it, so theres a greater chance of getting it even if the sample is say, 50+ years old. I know for a fact that entomologists have gotten mtDNA out of pinhead sized samples from 25 year old dry preserved insects (not frozen; cooled DNA, even in ethanol, can last much much much longer), so I'm not surprised they could get some out of a much bigger piece of human skin.

Also, the reason it's only inherited through the mother is because male mitochondria aren't incorporated into the female oocyte at the time of fertilization. A word of caution though, some mtDNA genes mutate quite a bit faster than those in the nucleus. Cytochrome c Oxidase I being a good example.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 04:08:10 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 02:23:59 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2010, 01:44:58 PM

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 16, 2010, 12:56:36 PM

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 03:57:34 AM

Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 12:35:31 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2010, 12:33:40 AM
For the record, I, too, think Israel is a political abomination and a human rights nightmare.

But that's a political opinion, not anti-semitism.

Yep. Hating Israel as a political entity is vastly different from hating Jews. Sometimes people have a really hard time recognizing or accepting that, though.

didn't you hear? disagreement with Israel or anything it does is the new anti-semitism.

obviously.

That's not what happened here.  Fuck off, you scabby little twit.

wasn't talking to you, dick.

Naw.  You were just poisoning the well a bit.

after 24 hours and a reread of the thread, I agree my comment was unnecessarily antagonistic.

apologies.

you're still a dick though.

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on December 17, 2010, 03:01:04 PM
apologies.

you're still a dick though.

1.  No sweat.

2.  This has never been disputed.  Holy Men™ aren't here to make people comfortable.