This is an attempt to collect a number of books that have influenced the way you view Discordia and the world in relation to it. This is NOT a "Best Of", "Discordian Literature", "I'm A Discordian And Kind Of Liked This" Book List. The idea is to share what books are important to you, and WHY they should be important to your fellow Discordians. We aren't shooting for a number.
Criteria for submissions:
Fuck, who needs criteria? If you want a book added to it, write up a brief description of what the book is about and how it shaped your view. It will then be open for discussion, but if one person gives it a thumbs up it's ON THE LIST 4 LIFE.
Have at it.
Warren Ellis:
Transmetropolitan
Crooked Little Vein
Planetary
Frankenstien's Womb
Hunter S Thompson:
Everything he ever wrote.
Ivan Stang & Philo Drummond:
The Book of the Subgenius
Revelation X
The Bobliophon
RAW/Robert Shea:
Illuminatus
The Schroedinger's Cat trilogy
Terry Pratchett:
The entire Sam Vimes collection (his other stuff is good, but not nearly as important).
Also, a nod to old school science fiction:
Jerry Pournelle (Codominuim series, about 40 books).
David Drake (Redliners, Hammer's Slammers, etc).
Harry Turtledove (Alternate Civil War series).
ETA: I refer to these as important because they shaped the way I think, at least to some degree. Specifics would take all day and wouldn't be constructive in any case.
The list itself is good enough for me, Roger, since you have stated that they shaped the way you think. The discussion should cover the rest of what I ask.
Thanks. :)
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 15, 2010, 08:10:27 PM
The list itself is good enough for me, Roger, since you have stated that they shaped the way you think. The discussion should cover the rest of what I ask.
Thanks. :)
Yeah, well, none of what I've read was like a light coming on in my head. It's mostly been a long process of reading people who know how to think, and taking from them the bits that matter.
For example, none of Transmet really stands out in my head as OMFG GENIUS, but the overall messages of the series have stuck with me. Same with Pratchett and Pournelle.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2010, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 15, 2010, 08:10:27 PM
The list itself is good enough for me, Roger, since you have stated that they shaped the way you think. The discussion should cover the rest of what I ask.
Thanks. :)
Yeah, well, none of what I've read was like a light coming on in my head. It's mostly been a long process of reading people who know how to think, and taking from them the bits that matter.
For example, none of Transmet really stands out in my head as OMFG GENIUS, but the overall messages of the series have stuck with me. Same with Pratchett and Pournelle.
I think that's what a good book does. It's not a specific part of the book that makes you think "Oh, that's brilliant", rather the whole book, over time. Settling in amongst the cobwebs, giving your thoughts a gentle nudge when they need it.
Good list Rev!
I'd include
Robert Anton Wilson:
Cosmic Trigger
Quantum Psychology
Edwin Abbott Abbott:
Flatland
Richard Bach:
Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah
Douglas Hofstadter:
The Mind's I
Escher Godel Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid
I Am A Strange Loop
Aldous Huxley:
The Doors of Perception
All of these have heavily influenced the way I see the world today, specifically around topics like Perception, Reality Tunnels, Thinking about Thinking etc
ETA:
Antero Alli:
AngelTech
The Call of the Wild
Jack London.
His perspective of that life came through the eyes of someone who was a part of it. No sugar coating and it helped me at that point realize that cruelty and compassion can exist together. Certainly not in perfect harmony but as offsetting counterpoints. His simplistic writing style allowed me to see much of the story in my mind very clearly.
Any introductory text on statistical analysis as used in the sciences, particularly psychology. - Get a grasp on what statics are, how they behave, and why a bell curve can't prove ANYTHING about sanity vs. insanity.
Prometheus Rising - by RAW. Intro into common levels people think on, common things they get hung up on, and intro into metacognition and working past those.
Black Swan - by N. Taleb. How unforseeable events shape history more than foreseeable ones. Not really that simple, easier to read and get the idea.
Dune - Frank Herbert. Sci-fi about resource control, two interacting flavors of hydraulic despotism, humans trying to be more than animals, alternative warfare, how to strongarm an empire, why it's a BAD idea to start a holy war, and more reasons to always carry a knife. Very relevant to the middle east of the last 60 years.
The Lord of the Rings.
J.R.R. Tolkien
Age old story of good vs. evil, but very well put together in a great fantasy setting.
The Martian Chronicles, Ray Bradbury
I haven't read all that many books. I have to read enough for work as it is. When I'm home I like to, not, read. But I read The Martian Chronicles back when I was in college. It became an annual ritual, mostly. It's a sci-fi book that really isn't all that sci-fi. Sure, it takes place on Mars, mostly. It, initially anyway, involves Martians. But it really gets at narratives around culture clashes, isolation, xenophobia, and the threat of nuclear war.
The part that always sticks with me most, however, is the bit that describes the automated house on Mars that basically eats itself after it was abandoned when the humans went back to Earth for WWIII. It really tied everything together nicely, in a horrormirth kind of way.
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest - Mental Asylum gone wrong. Scarily accurate personality archetypes.
Animal Farm - Orwell - How governments learn to hate their people, among other things.
The Language Police by Diane Ravitch
I second the Night Watch/Sam Vimes series
Animal Farm is also seconded
Of Mice and Men
To Kill a Mocking Bird
The Scarlet Letter
The Search for the Golden Moon Bear by Sy Montgomery
There's more, but I should be doing a final and studying, so I'll come back later.
Schrodinger's Cat
Illuminatus
Cosmic Trigger
Masks of the Illuminati
The Widow's Son
Slaughterhouse Five
Flatland
Consider Her Ways
The Gunslinger
The Third Policeman
VALIS
Promethea
Animal Farm
1984
Nausea
The Trial
All creatures Great and Small
James Herriot
See LMNO, my stupid list killed the thread. :D
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 15, 2010, 08:43:08 PM
The Martian Chronicles, Ray Bradbury
I haven't read all that many books. I have to read enough for work as it is. When I'm home I like to, not, read. But I read The Martian Chronicles back when I was in college. It became an annual ritual, mostly. It's a sci-fi book that really isn't all that sci-fi. Sure, it takes place on Mars, mostly. It, initially anyway, involves Martians. But it really gets at narratives around culture clashes, isolation, xenophobia, and the threat of nuclear war.
The part that always sticks with me most, however, is the bit that describes the automated house on Mars that basically eats itself after it was abandoned when the humans went back to Earth for WWIII. It really tied everything together nicely, in a horrormirth kind of way.
RWHN, that is a very interesting justification. I find that I agree with your points.
Thank you, everyone, for contributing your thoughts. I will read through the list as it stands and try to facilitate discussion on a few of the books tonight or tomorrow. I'm a bit preoccupied with other things to give it a full shake at the moment.
I thought this thread was about book reports of why they should be included...
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 03:03:33 AM
I thought this thread was about book reports of why they should be included...
It is. I am waiting for the justifications before I start making a tentative list.
*cough*
On People:
The Naked Ape - Desmond Morris
First book I ever read that says we're nothing more than evolved monkeys.
Transactional Analysis - Eric Berne
The guy who pioneered group psychotherapy and his system for describing all manner of human interactions. Very informative, but dry unless you're interested in that sort of thing.
Games People Play - Eric Berne
Excellent book that gives names to many of the little games we play with each other in our day to day lives. It's based on his work in Transactional Analysis so it would help to have read that first, but it's not necessary for understanding the concepts.
Scripts People Live - Eric Berne
His book on what people do most of our lives when we're not playing our social games or creating past-times. I recommend all three, in this order.
On Mathematics for Non-Math heads:
The Universe and the Teacup - K.C. Cole (a good place to start but hardly definitive)
continue with Innumeracy - John Paulos
and Archimedes' Revenge - Paul Hoffman (my favorite of the three)
More as I think of them.
The Language Police by Diane Ravitch
Really interesting discussion on bowlderization as it is done in schools and censorship as a whole. Made me hate it even more than I already did.
I'm replace Of Mice and Men with Grapes of Wrath.
First step away from libertarianism for me, I think. Corporations do not give a shit about the little guy whatsoever and it also really made me feel for the poor and the displaced.
To Kill a Mocking Bird
People are horrible and will kill the innocent because they are bigoted assholes.
The Scarlet Letter
People are fucking terrible and will make others into paraiahs for retarded shit.
The Search for the Golden Moon Bear by Sy Montgomery
More of a YA science story, and I read it at about that age. I grew up in the "Save the rainforest! save the white tiger!" era and that was only so much white noise until I read this. The golden moon bear is a rare subspecies of moon bear in South East Asia and time is limited to find them. It also made me want to go visit that part of the world.
Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl
A memoir on the author's time in a Nazi concentration camp and a reflection on his view of how to deal with suffering and what our purpose in life is. Really fucking good.
Quote from: Charley Brown on December 15, 2010, 08:22:05 PM
The Call of the Wild
Jack London.
His perspective of that life came through the eyes of someone who was a part of it. No sugar coating and it helped me at that point realize that cruelty and compassion can exist together. Certainly not in perfect harmony but as offsetting counterpoints. His simplistic writing style allowed me to see much of the story in my mind very clearly.
Alright to get us started actually compiling a list, let's start discussing why or why not we think these books should be better (keep adding more books though).
I agree that Call of the Wild is a damn good read. You also bring a good point about the demonstration of the odd balance of cruelty and compassion. But is that enough to earn it a spot on this list? For the moment, I am going to say no on the grounds that while it's important yo note their coexistence, there are other sources that teach this lesson, some of which may be better for the individual in the long run.
Marabou Stork Nightmares does an extroadanary job of describing the nature of pain (and provides a good counterpoint to the film Dogville, which is also worth a look)
Adbusters; No a book, but my introduction to 'Leftist politics' before I knew of such a thing.
Bhadvad-Gita (sp?) gave me some very interesting ideas about the concept of 'ambition'.
Chuck Pahlanuik didn't change my life (though the Fight Club film counts), but certainly impacted on the way I write.
George Orwell's 1984/Politics and the English language really helped synthesise a set of ideas about language as a tool of power.
The jargon set and concepts of Bokonism from Cat's Cradle have been useful.
Monkey: A Journey to the West
Good fictionalized tale of buddhist slight-of-mind techniques, and the quest for Nirvana.
Quote from: Telarus on December 18, 2010, 06:09:08 AM
Monkey: A Journey to the West
Good fictionalized tale of buddhist slight-of-mind techniques, and the quest for Nirvana.
The Nature of Monkey, is irrepressible!
At the risk of incurring derision and ridicule, I'd like to include some Crowley. But not any of his Theoretical work, because that would detract from the reasons why I think this particular Volume should be included. It's "Diary of a Drug Fiend".
I haven't come across any other novel, that encapsulates the entire social strata, of that period straight after WWI, with quite the same depth as this non-stop drug fueled descent into debauched madness and desperation. Taking place right across a War wounded Europe, a young Sir Peter Pendragon, returns from the War, decorated and hailed a Hero, but (understandably) somewhat broken by the experience. And shattered by the untimely death of his unfathful fiancee, he begins to come apart at the seams, and falls in love with a young, hot coked up party girl, and marries her. The availability of legal cocaine and heroin, soon gets hold of the pair, and steadily begins to eat up his fortune. The pattern that addiction takes is very familiar to us all today, but back then, nobody had written about it in such depth, or with such first hand honesty as Crowley. I still maintain that no other book to this day, fictional or not, has addressed the issues of addiction with such clarity, and perception as this. Crowley has all the psychological dynamics nailed, in a time when Psychology was in it's absolute infancy. The fall of Sir Peter, and unlimited Lou into the lowest rock bottom of junkiedom, and their subsequent detox and rehabilitation covers everything relevant to the subject, without detracting from the galloping pace of the tale. Crowley, with his usual disdain for the rules, not only breaks the fourth wall, but utterly demolishes it like it wasn't even there, by dropping himself (not even barely disguised) into the very centre of the whole tale, as a kind of overly bombastic Master of Ceremonies, and saviour of fallen souls, Basil King Lamus. This might seem to be an act of the most shameless and blatant self aggrandisment, (But this is Crowley, and that was what he did) but it's also in equal measure, a quite brutally honest self parody as well. Tongue in cheek, but actually addressing his own, lifelong struggle with heroin. I think you can actually pick out each step of the Twelve step Minnesota program adopted by Alcoholics Anonymous thirty odd years later out, quite clearly in the story. It's also humorous, compelling, and is full of barely fictionalised chunks of Crowley's own life. (Largely, the infamous Abbey of Thelema, in Cefalu) I think it should be included. Despite being written in the style of a old Victorian penny dreadful, it's an insightful and unique glimpse into a time just before the British Empire, and Class System begin to noticeably start crumbling. And also to represent Crowley, in as Discordian a way as possible. (As a writer of fact, disguised as fiction, rather than the usual, fiction disguised as fact)
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 17, 2010, 11:16:32 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on December 15, 2010, 08:22:05 PM
The Call of the Wild
Jack London.
His perspective of that life came through the eyes of someone who was a part of it. No sugar coating and it helped me at that point realize that cruelty and compassion can exist together. Certainly not in perfect harmony but as offsetting counterpoints. His simplistic writing style allowed me to see much of the story in my mind very clearly.
Alright to get us started actually compiling a list, let's start discussing why or why not we think these books should be better (keep adding more books though).
I agree that Call of the Wild is a damn good read. You also bring a good point about the demonstration of the odd balance of cruelty and compassion. But is that enough to earn it a spot on this list? For the moment, I am going to say no on the grounds that while it's important yo note their coexistence, there are other sources that teach this lesson, some of which may be better for the individual in the long run.
Honestly I don't think any on my list belong. As I read the titles others have posted the gap in what we read becomes even larger. I do not read many of the books listed here because to me they come across as textbooks.
Quote from: Charley Brown on December 18, 2010, 02:30:49 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 17, 2010, 11:16:32 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on December 15, 2010, 08:22:05 PM
The Call of the Wild
Jack London.
His perspective of that life came through the eyes of someone who was a part of it. No sugar coating and it helped me at that point realize that cruelty and compassion can exist together. Certainly not in perfect harmony but as offsetting counterpoints. His simplistic writing style allowed me to see much of the story in my mind very clearly.
Alright to get us started actually compiling a list, let's start discussing why or why not we think these books should be better (keep adding more books though).
I agree that Call of the Wild is a damn good read. You also bring a good point about the demonstration of the odd balance of cruelty and compassion. But is that enough to earn it a spot on this list? For the moment, I am going to say no on the grounds that while it's important yo note their coexistence, there are other sources that teach this lesson, some of which may be better for the individual in the long run.
Honestly I don't think any on my list belong. As I read the titles others have posted the gap in what we read becomes even larger. I do not read many of the books listed here because to me they come across as textbooks.
it doesn't matter if what you read is different Charley. The point of the list isn't that we've all read the same things, but that we have been influenced by these books in how we think. The gap is not important.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 18, 2010, 05:12:40 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on December 18, 2010, 02:30:49 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 17, 2010, 11:16:32 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on December 15, 2010, 08:22:05 PM
The Call of the Wild
Jack London.
His perspective of that life came through the eyes of someone who was a part of it. No sugar coating and it helped me at that point realize that cruelty and compassion can exist together. Certainly not in perfect harmony but as offsetting counterpoints. His simplistic writing style allowed me to see much of the story in my mind very clearly.
Alright to get us started actually compiling a list, let's start discussing why or why not we think these books should be better (keep adding more books though).
I agree that Call of the Wild is a damn good read. You also bring a good point about the demonstration of the odd balance of cruelty and compassion. But is that enough to earn it a spot on this list? For the moment, I am going to say no on the grounds that while it's important yo note their coexistence, there are other sources that teach this lesson, some of which may be better for the individual in the long run.
Honestly I don't think any on my list belong. As I read the titles others have posted the gap in what we read becomes even larger. I do not read many of the books listed here because to me they come across as textbooks.
it doesn't matter if what you read is different Charley. The point of the list isn't that we've all read the same things, but that we have been influenced by these books in how we think. The gap is not important.
Unless you happen to find yourself on the London Underground, where some mindless automated robot bint, constantly repeats in a metallic monotone, "Mind the Gap, Mind the Gap" ("The Gap" being the three quarters of an inch distance between the Train, and the edge of the platform)
When it's patently obvious, even to the thickest turnip headed bumpkin, on a Day Return to 'Thaat London' that the danger area, is the space directly
in front of the fucking train!
American Fascism: The Christian Right and the War on America (http://books.google.com/books?id=jFjzEaloM9sC) By Chris Hedges
Pretty much taught me what I know about fascism and completely fucking terrified me. I don't buy everything in the book, but so much of it makes too much goddamn sense and a lot of it fits with what I had already observed.
RAW: Prometheus Rising b/w Quantum Psychology -- Ok, so it's a duet. But they are pretty much two sides of a coin. The reason I found them important was because, unlike so many esoteric "your experiential reality is subjective" books, they eschew most of the New Age crap, and offer ways you can actually prove it to yourself. Of course, they are not perfect, nor always accurate... But as a starting point, you could do a hell of a lot worse.
Can we nominate a comic strip, or a comic strip compilation? If so I would add The Prehistory of The Far Side by Gary Larson.
If any of the newspaper comic strips were to be considered Discordian, it certainly, in my mind, would be The Far Side. I like The Prehistory of Far Side because you see the evolution of his work and get a small glimpse into how his mind works. You also get to see where he liked to screw with the paper editors and also mindfuck the readers. The example of the "Cow Tools" strip is a perfect example. It was almost a reverse Starbucks Pebbles in that what Larson was aiming for in that strip was very simple. He drew a cow standing over four tools that were all oddly shape, because, well cows probably suck at making tools. Except, he made one of them look like a saw, so readers were racking their brain to figure out what the other three were.
Anyway, I throw it upon the mercy of the book jury.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 21, 2010, 01:05:27 PM
RAW: Prometheus Rising b/w Quantum Psychology -- Ok, so it's a duet. But they are pretty much two sides of a coin. The reason I found them important was because, unlike so many esoteric "your experiential reality is subjective" books, they eschew most of the New Age crap, and offer ways you can actually prove it to yourself. Of course, they are not perfect, nor always accurate... But as a starting point, you could do a hell of a lot worse.
I do find that they both tread over a lot of the same category, which can make whichever one you read second a little tedious sometimes, but I agree... helpful and succinct.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 21, 2010, 03:37:59 PM
Can we nominate a comic strip, or a comic strip compilation? If so I would add The Prehistory of The Far Side by Gary Larson.
If any of the newspaper comic strips were to be considered Discordian, it certainly, in my mind, would be The Far Side. I like The Prehistory of Far Side because you see the evolution of his work and get a small glimpse into how his mind works. You also get to see where he liked to screw with the paper editors and also mindfuck the readers. The example of the "Cow Tools" strip is a perfect example. It was almost a reverse Starbucks Pebbles in that what Larson was aiming for in that strip was very simple. He drew a cow standing over four tools that were all oddly shape, because, well cows probably suck at making tools. Except, he made one of them look like a saw, so readers were racking their brain to figure out what the other three were.
Anyway, I throw it upon the mercy of the book jury.
Perfectly acceptable.
Quote from: Hoopla on December 21, 2010, 03:51:25 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 21, 2010, 01:05:27 PM
RAW: Prometheus Rising b/w Quantum Psychology -- Ok, so it's a duet. But they are pretty much two sides of a coin. The reason I found them important was because, unlike so many esoteric "your experiential reality is subjective" books, they eschew most of the New Age crap, and offer ways you can actually prove it to yourself. Of course, they are not perfect, nor always accurate... But as a starting point, you could do a hell of a lot worse.
I do find that they both tread over a lot of the same category, which can make whichever one you read second a little tedious sometimes, but I agree... helpful and succinct.
I agree as well. But Prometheus Rising was written as a first attempt at getting that info across to an academic level audience. The second book was written specifically to use as a "Book Club" workbook. Both are worth reading, PR for the detail, QP for the succinctness.
Edit: Another of his works that went through a similar evolution are "The Book of the Breast / Ishtar Rising" and "Sex, Drugs, and Magick", which are great companions to PR/QP.
Quote from: Telarus on December 21, 2010, 11:14:04 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on December 21, 2010, 03:51:25 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 21, 2010, 01:05:27 PM
RAW: Prometheus Rising b/w Quantum Psychology -- Ok, so it's a duet. But they are pretty much two sides of a coin. The reason I found them important was because, unlike so many esoteric "your experiential reality is subjective" books, they eschew most of the New Age crap, and offer ways you can actually prove it to yourself. Of course, they are not perfect, nor always accurate... But as a starting point, you could do a hell of a lot worse.
I do find that they both tread over a lot of the same category, which can make whichever one you read second a little tedious sometimes, but I agree... helpful and succinct.
I agree as well. But Prometheus Rising was written as a first attempt at getting that info across to an academic level audience. The second book was written specifically to use as a "Book Club" workbook. Both are worth reading, PR for the detail, QP for the succinctness.
Edit: Another of his works that went through a similar evolution are "The Book of the Breast / Ishtar Rising" and "Sex, Drugs, and Magick", which are great companions to PR/QP.
I've read "Sex, Drugs, and Magick" and found it very helpful in understanding Crowley.
Less weighty and far more easy to get your head round, it made me approach Crowley with a more sceptical mind.
I think that was the way Crowley wanted his work to be read anyway, but he didn't want to make it too easy for the reader, preferring that they do some serious thinking for themselves. The pompous old trickster.
Quote from: BadBeast on December 23, 2010, 06:24:25 PM
Quote from: Telarus on December 21, 2010, 11:14:04 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on December 21, 2010, 03:51:25 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 21, 2010, 01:05:27 PM
RAW: Prometheus Rising b/w Quantum Psychology -- Ok, so it's a duet. But they are pretty much two sides of a coin. The reason I found them important was because, unlike so many esoteric "your experiential reality is subjective" books, they eschew most of the New Age crap, and offer ways you can actually prove it to yourself. Of course, they are not perfect, nor always accurate... But as a starting point, you could do a hell of a lot worse.
I do find that they both tread over a lot of the same category, which can make whichever one you read second a little tedious sometimes, but I agree... helpful and succinct.
I agree as well. But Prometheus Rising was written as a first attempt at getting that info across to an academic level audience. The second book was written specifically to use as a "Book Club" workbook. Both are worth reading, PR for the detail, QP for the succinctness.
Edit: Another of his works that went through a similar evolution are "The Book of the Breast / Ishtar Rising" and "Sex, Drugs, and Magick", which are great companions to PR/QP.
I've read "Sex, Drugs, and Magick" and found it very helpful in understanding Crowley.
Less weighty and far more easy to get your head round, it made me approach Crowley with a more sceptical mind.
I think that was the way Crowley wanted his work to be read anyway, but he didn't want to make it too easy for the reader, preferring that they do some serious thinking for themselves. The pompous old trickster.
I've come to a similar thought on Crowley, not just from RAW's views, but from Crowley's own writing ("The Solider and the Hunchback" for example)
Actually I think that should be on the Discordian list too
"The Solider and the Hunchback" by A Crowley
Its an excellent view of mindfucking as a lifestyle... as well as some interesting esoteric thinking.
Liked Angel Tech over Prometheus Rising
Antero has his own insights that he has strapped on to the 8 Circuit Model. Some of the language he used is much more new-agey, but if you read past that it's a great addition to the theory.
Also: "The Room" by Hubert Selby Jr.