Okay, let's just get a few things straight.
Science fiction is fiction about science. It is speculative fiction, based on what we now know and/or suspect about how the universe functions. It is NOT about the following: Vampires, werewolves, witches, demons, elves, or those Goddamn telepathic cats. Any of the above gains the coveted TGRR Dented Wall Award.
Also, science fiction should not include theories that have been proven false, unless you're aiming at a retro-1930's feel. If your story relies on faster than light travel, cheat. Call it hyperspace or some shit. Do NOT expect me to believe that you can get a cat in a spacesuit (Dark Matter), or that a cat can survive freefall (they start trying to get their feet "down", and spin themselves to death). Again, Dented Wall Award.
The original science fiction story was Mary Shelley's Frankenstien. Most people assume this was gothic horror, but it isn't really. Electricity was in its infancy, and she wrote a story about how it could possibly be used, based on the work of the scientist Galvani, who noted that electricity affected the nerves of living and dead creatures. Mary Shellely speculated that this might be the difference between the living and the dead, and wrote her story accordingly. First the speculative premise (electricity creates life), and second, the impact on society (Scientist goes batshit, townsfolk go batshit, monster says "fuck it" and goes batshit). It all ends in frozen tears in the arctic, which was then unexplored, with the monster presumbaly freezing solid (thus setting the first "built in sequel", which she thankfully never wrote).
Jules Verne and H.G. Wells followed, and the rest is history.
But it seems that we've given up on the future. The only science fiction out there today is grim, hopeless, dystopian stuff...And that's when you can find ANY science fiction in the science fiction section, which is now wall-to-wall softcore porn about vampires, etc.
I grew up on Jerry Pournelle's epic saga that begins with High Justice, and goes through 30+ books, and ends with The Gripping Hand. He extrapolates social issues, politics, science, and military hardware, starting in the 1990s, and stretching through the 2800s and beyond. Aliens don't come into it until the last 3 books, and then they're actually alien, not humans with funny noses, etc.
It was grim stuff, but on a realistic level, and he always showed that there WAS hope for the future, even if people ARE, in general, dumb.
And that's what Science Fiction is all about. So take your telepathic cats and other ridiculous shit and chuck 'em out the airlock. They aren't required, and David Weber can kiss my ass.
Or Kill Me.
Lately, I've been enjoying Iain M. Banks' Culture series, which seems to involve some actually sciency stuff going on in it (advanced AI, genetic engineering of the human body, space travel etc) and isn't actually all that dystopian, though some of the implications of the Culture could be seen as less than positive (namely, boredom leading to neoconservative-esque meddling in foreign societies). I've only gotten to the second one in the series, The Player of Games, but, as you say, social, political and scientific issues are explored in the series, in some depth. Its certainly much better than Horatio Hornblower in Space uh David Weber's stuff, or any of the non-Ciaphas Cain WH40K novels. I may have to look at Jerry Pournelle once I'm done.
I still enjoy things like 2001 and 2010 Space Odyssey.
I'll have to look Banks up. I'm always interested in new "hard" SF.
Also, I was impressed by Serenity/Firefly, even if it was the Wild West in Space...Especially when you find out where the Reavers came from. Pulling off SF without zap guns and aliens is pretty rough, and they did a good job...Which is why they were cancelled.
I think most of Neal Stephenson's futuristic works would go here, especially Anathem. It uses Quantum interpretation in a surprisingly accurate way, and is central to the arc of the novel, rather than a way to explain away magic.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 04:27:57 PM
I think most of Neal Stephenson's futuristic works would go here, especially Anathem. It uses Quantum interpretation in a surprisingly accurate way, and is central to the arc of the novel, rather than a way to explain away magic.
Sounds good. Was he the guy that did
Cryptonomicon?
Yup. Warning: There are long passages of philisophical dialog, and plenty of math.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 04:26:48 PM
I'll have to look Banks up. I'm always interested in new "hard" SF.
Also, I was impressed by Serenity/Firefly, even if it was the Wild West in Space...Especially when you find out where the Reavers came from. Pulling off SF without zap guns and aliens is pretty rough, and they did a good job...Which is why they were cancelled.
I would say Banks is more space opera than hard sci-fi...but I know some of his later books deal with the AI's in a more in depth way, so its one of those borderline things.
That said, I do intend to read Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon The Deep at some point in the near future, and that is meant to be very hard sci-fi, up there with Arthur C. Clarke, Asimov, Larry Niven and the rest. If I find it favourable, I'll let you know.
I hated Stephenson's Snow Crash. All that stuff about getting a mind-virus from monitor static went beyond speculative and into the realm of fantasy, for me. I haven't read anything else of his for that reason. But then my sci-fi library, with few exceptions, ends around 1970 as everything got a bit too doom and gloom for me then.
I loved Firefly though - it's one of the few modern sci-fi visions which I feel it might actually be fun to live in.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 04:34:41 PM
Yup. Warning: There are long passages of philisophical dialog, and plenty of math.
I can do math. How drippy is the philosophy?
Mostly elevated Platonic Realism vs Formalism.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 04:46:01 PM
Mostly elevated Platonic Realism vs Formalism.
:crankey:
It's forgivable when the novel suddenly takes a turn into the Everett Many Worlds theory.
Anathem is a really great book. Admittedly though, I'm a theoretical physics nerd and found the explanations of his many-worlds idea to be just as exciting as, say, the space battles. Also, Lee Smolin said it was the only thing he'd ever read that made him believe a multiverse could be possible.
Another new hard-SF book I read recently is The Quantum Thief (http://scotspec.blogspot.com/2010/07/book-review-quantum-thief-by-hannu.html) by Hannu Rajaniemi. Stupid title, but great book. It refuses to explain anything, so it's confusing at the start, but I like that in SF. And hey, anything written by a Finnish string theorist has to be good.
As long as it's not about String Theory.
Haha no, it's not. Seems to be about absolutely everything else though.
:Mittens:
and I second Banks' Culture series even though I have only read through to Player of Games like Cain, and it is very space opera but not weird 'sci-fantasy' crap like some can get.
Strangely enough I was just having an argument on Friday night about what constituted Science Fiction. A friend was trying to claim that Star Wars was Science Fiction... I argued that it was Fantasy, dressed up as Science Fiction. I was unable to win over the crowd. Apparently, to the people, if there are robots and lasers, it's Science Fiction. I eventually gave up, and just drank quietly.
Quote from: Hoopla on January 31, 2011, 09:16:56 PM
Strangely enough I was just having an argument on Friday night about what constituted Science Fiction. A friend was trying to claim that Star Wars was Science Fiction... I argued that it was Fantasy, dressed up as Science Fiction. I was unable to win over the crowd. Apparently, to the people, if there are robots and lasers, it's Science Fiction. I eventually gave up, and just drank quietly.
DON'T USE YOUR STATE OF THE ART TARGETING COMPUTER, LUKE! USE DA FORCE!
When I was young, I read a Dutch SciFi children's book called Coriolis, the storm planet. A human stranded on an alien planet that turned really fast, causing a continuous storm to rage over the surface. For some reason that I forgot he had to circle the planet to get back to his spaceship. He built a wind-powered sail mobile which he used to make the trip, accompanied by a member of the planet's native intelligent lifeform ... large telepathic cats :)
Though apart from the cats' telepathy there was no magic or anything.
This makes me wonder where Phillip K Dick would fit on the spectrum of Sci-fi/Sci-fantasy.
So where does all this leave Dune?
Leaving the realm of written sci-fi and going into film/tv sci-fi, I've noticed that there doesn't seem to be anyone who imagined a more optimistic, if incredibly fanciful, future than Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek.
When you get past all the advanced tech that made it possible to travel faster than light, heal wounds and diseases in a few moments, make any food item you wanted at a mere request to a machine, and numerous other Nice Things, you realize that Star Trek envisions one of the most beautiful yet utterly unlikely futures ever: A future in which humanity, for the most part, stops being stupid.
Quote from: Triple Zero on January 31, 2011, 10:27:26 PM
When I was young, I read a Dutch SciFi children's book called Coriolis, the storm planet. A human stranded on an alien planet that turned really fast, causing a continuous storm to rage over the surface. For some reason that I forgot he had to circle the planet to get back to his spaceship. He built a wind-powered sail mobile which he used to make the trip, accompanied by a member of the planet's native intelligent lifeform ... large telepathic cats :)
Though apart from the cats' telepathy there was no magic or anything.
Telepathic cats = bad story. Cannot be salvaged, even if it was written by Jules Vern with the crumbling ichor from Mary Shelley's coffin.
Hard sci-fi, fuck yeah. The point of spec-fic is to explore. Not to escape. I don't recall if this was my idea or one I stole, but I've always said that fantasy is better for metaphorical stuff and introspective themes, and sci-fi is better for social commentary and, you know, inventing sliding doors and geosynchronous satellites. That sort of thing.
Quote from: Charley Brown on January 31, 2011, 10:39:09 PM
So where does all this leave Dune?
In the rubbish bin, where it belongs.
There. I said it.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 09:33:37 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 31, 2011, 09:16:56 PM
Strangely enough I was just having an argument on Friday night about what constituted Science Fiction. A friend was trying to claim that Star Wars was Science Fiction... I argued that it was Fantasy, dressed up as Science Fiction. I was unable to win over the crowd. Apparently, to the people, if there are robots and lasers, it's Science Fiction. I eventually gave up, and just drank quietly.
DON'T USE YOUR STATE OF THE ART TARGETING COMPUTER, LUKE! USE DA FORCE!
OMG WHY DOES HALF DA SPACESHIPS HAVE WINGS AND BANK. THERE IS NO ATMOSPHERE, SO IT MUST BE THE FORCE!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 01, 2011, 12:46:48 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on January 31, 2011, 10:39:09 PM
So where does all this leave Dune?
In the rubbish bin, where it belongs.
There. I said it.
Hey I like Dune, the rest of his work is rubbish though.
Quote from: Canis latrans eques on February 01, 2011, 01:23:02 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 01, 2011, 12:46:48 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on January 31, 2011, 10:39:09 PM
So where does all this leave Dune?
In the rubbish bin, where it belongs.
There. I said it.
Hey I like Dune, the rest of his work is rubbish though.
HELLSTROM'S HIVE IS A MASTERPIECE, YUO INGRATE!
(Actually, it's the 3rd worst thing ever inflicted on the English language.)
I'm of the opinion of lit like I am with any other art genre--it's really in the eye of the beholder, at the end of things. I do agree that Vamp fic and the like is NOT sci fi. But the fantasy genre DOES tend to spill over quite a bit these days.
I'm probably one of the few here who took a lit course in sci fi in college. It opened my eyes wide to the world of sci fi authors, and I learned to appreciate it beyond Stars War and Trek.
Asimov, Octavia Butler, Vonnegutt (yeah, they used some of his work in that course, which I initially wrote off but then understood later on in the grander scheme of things)...those are some pioneers for me in a genre that spoke more about what humanity IS rather than what it SHOULD be. And I was already a Huxley and Ray Bradbury fan.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 01, 2011, 01:56:59 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans eques on February 01, 2011, 01:23:02 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 01, 2011, 12:46:48 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on January 31, 2011, 10:39:09 PM
So where does all this leave Dune?
In the rubbish bin, where it belongs.
There. I said it.
Hey I like Dune, the rest of his work is rubbish though.
HELLSTROM'S HIVE IS A MASTERPIECE, YUO INGRATE!
(Actually, it's the 3rd worst thing ever inflicted on the English language.)
Does the Twilight series count as one book, then? If not, I'd have to move it down a notch or three.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 05:32:55 PM
As long as it's not about String Theory.
It occurs to me that even if you start from the assumption that string theory is true, it is still completely useless for the purpose of science fiction. Except maybe as technobabble.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 01, 2011, 04:06:07 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 05:32:55 PM
As long as it's not about String Theory.
It occurs to me that even if you start from the assumption that string theory is true, it is still completely useless for the purpose of science fiction. Except maybe as technobabble.
Wasnt Michio Kaku's Tv show basically him using string theory to techno-babble into existence light sabers and shit?
I haven't read much fiction in years and recently got the urge to buy some science fiction. Can anyone recommend a few books? Assume that I know nothing and point me straight to the good stuff.
Quote from: Hoopla on January 31, 2011, 09:16:56 PM
Strangely enough I was just having an argument on Friday night about what constituted Science Fiction. A friend was trying to claim that Star Wars was Science Fiction... I argued that it was Fantasy, dressed up as Science Fiction. I was unable to win over the crowd. Apparently, to the people, if there are robots and lasers, it's Science Fiction. I eventually gave up, and just drank quietly.
I call it cosmetic science fiction when the story can still be told without robots, lasers, etc, but fantasy works too.
I'm not sure whether this fits in with hard sci-fi, but I think the genre is at its best when a technology or scientific concept is used to place characters into a situation where themes and ideas that couldn't be elegantly expressed otherwise are able to thrive. So far no one has agreed with me on this.
Hard Scifi:
Larry Niven, All the Myriad Ways
Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash, The Diamond Age, Anathem
Not-so Hard Scifi:
Philip K Dick, Ubik
Arthur C Clarke, Childhood's End
Orson Scott Card, Ender's Game
Quote from: Charley Brown on January 31, 2011, 10:39:09 PM
So where does all this leave Dune?
I loved god emperor of dune and the first dune book, GE was a proper full political intrigue novel (the rest of the series shied away and ended most segments with a fantasy deus ex). The first book was much better then the remaining books in the series, but years after I first read it, it doesn't pack the punch it did when I was sixteen.
I grew up on Buck Rogers. That dude had some cool shit!
Quote from: Faust on February 01, 2011, 01:44:52 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on January 31, 2011, 10:39:09 PM
So where does all this leave Dune?
I loved god emperor of dune and the first dune book, GE was a proper full political intrigue novel (the rest of the series shied away and ended most segments with a fantasy deus ex). The first book was much better then the remaining books in the series, but years after I first read it, it doesn't pack the punch it did when I was sixteen.
I kinda felt the same thing, noticed that there was some repetitiveness and unnecessary segments when I went to reread it. But overall still a decent book.
Great OP and I don't have much to add beyond Alastair Reynolds being AWESOME hard scifi. Dude was an astrophysicist for the European space agency for 12 years and his book Chasm City made me hate the movie Wall-E for the sole reason that multigenerational space traveling A) isn't likely going to result in a peaceful, unchanged culture and B) ISN'T MOTHERFUCKING LIKELY GOING TO RESULT IN A PEACEFUL, UNCHANGED CULTURE YOU GOD DAMNED MORONS.
His only major fault is that he often forgets that not every single character should have the complete set of knowledge possessed by an astrophysicists.
I don't know why Greg Egan doesn't get more love, but he's been responsible for the best "hard SF" I've read in recent memory. He just takes an idea and goes with it. No unnecessary crap and no 3 book-1000 page each-bullshit-epic-sagas.
I have a couple of Egan books I haven't gotten around to yet. I suppose they are now on The List as well...
Quote from: Cain on February 02, 2011, 11:22:41 PM
I have a couple of Egan books I haven't gotten around to yet. I suppose they are now on The List as well...
Pretty sure I am jealous of your book collection, except on moving day.
Quote from: Cain on February 02, 2011, 11:22:41 PM
I have a couple of Egan books I haven't gotten around to yet. I suppose they are now on The List as well...
In my experience they're pretty quick reads, even though they contain lots of things to think about. "Axiomatic" (I think) which is a collection of short stories, nearly blew my mind with its sheer density of ideas.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 02, 2011, 11:35:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 02, 2011, 11:22:41 PM
I have a couple of Egan books I haven't gotten around to yet. I suppose they are now on The List as well...
Pretty sure I am jealous of your book collection, except on moving day.
99% of them are on an external hard drive.
Admittedly, that still leaves a pretty large, in real terms, 1% to move (I have two full bookcases, plus a box, plus a table, for storage) but its not as bad as you'd think.
Quote from: nurbldoff on February 02, 2011, 11:41:56 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 02, 2011, 11:22:41 PM
I have a couple of Egan books I haven't gotten around to yet. I suppose they are now on The List as well...
In my experience they're pretty quick reads, even though they contain lots of things to think about. "Axiomatic" (I think) which is a collection of short stories, nearly blew my mind with its sheer density of ideas.
Yeah, they didn't look too large when I got them, but at the moment, unfortunately, I have to do a lot of work-related reading, so I'm looking at edging them back until I'm a little more free (which may not be before July, depending on certain factors).
Quote from: Cain on February 03, 2011, 12:56:15 PM
99% of them are on an external hard drive.
Wow, what kind of size folder are they, would they all fit on an 8gig memory key if I sent it to you if you had time?
Not quite. My library is at 45 gig.
On a thematic breakdown though, I have
1.44 gig on criminology and security
710 MB on economics and finance
1.74 gig on the history and theory of fascism (including original documentation)
4 gig on history
7.26 gig on IR and Foreign Policy
About two gig on languages (including audio files)
2.24 gig of literature and fiction, though I need to go through and sort that more thoroughly, removing duplicates and files that don't interest me.
1.98 gig on philosophy, though the caveat for fiction also applies here.
5.37 gig on politics, but the above caveat applies again.
3.5 gig on psychology
3.5 gig of religious and atheist texts
2.5 gig of science books
About a gig of sociology and anthropological texts
1.22 gig of strategy texts
2.5 gig on terrorism (though many texts dealing with the "war on terror" fall under the IR and foreign policy folder)
nearly a gig on writing styles and techniques, citation methods, how to carry out accurate research etc
How much of that do you think you can read within your lifetime?
Well, to be perfectly honest, most of it is for citation purposes only. Searching for information on a particular topic is much easier when you have a search bar, as opposed to having to go to the index, then find the relevant pages, then read it.
Nice!
But why wouldn't you just use Wikipedia?
\
:mullet:
Quote from: Cain on February 03, 2011, 01:54:33 PM
Not quite. My library is at 45 gig.
On a thematic breakdown though, I have
1.44 gig on criminology and security
710 MB on economics and finance
1.74 gig on the history and theory of fascism (including original documentation)
4 gig on history
7.26 gig on IR and Foreign Policy
About two gig on languages (including audio files)
2.24 gig of literature and fiction, though I need to go through and sort that more thoroughly, removing duplicates and files that don't interest me.
1.98 gig on philosophy, though the caveat for fiction also applies here.
5.37 gig on politics, but the above caveat applies again.
3.5 gig on psychology
3.5 gig of religious and atheist texts
2.5 gig of science books
About a gig of sociology and anthropological texts
1.22 gig of strategy texts
2.5 gig on terrorism (though many texts dealing with the "war on terror" fall under the IR and foreign policy folder)
nearly a gig on writing styles and techniques, citation methods, how to carry out accurate research etc
Any chance I could get the fiction, psychology and science books off you?
Once I sort through them to remove duplicates and the like, sure. I'll find a decent third party site and get back to you privately once the files are in place.
The last "Sci-fi" proper that impressed me was Neal Asher's "Skinner". Great book, and there's sequels too, so I'll have to purvey meself a bit more of that.
Quote from: BadBeast on February 05, 2011, 06:12:24 PM
The last "Sci-fi" proper that impressed me was Neal Asher's "Skinner". Great book, and there's sequels too, so I'll have to purvey meself a bit more of that.
Movie-wise, it was District 9 for me. Great storyline, they actually used South African no-names for many of the roles, and it had a battle with GODDAMN MARINE SPACE ARMOR!
It was the whole package.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 05, 2011, 06:14:29 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on February 05, 2011, 06:12:24 PM
The last "Sci-fi" proper that impressed me was Neal Asher's "Skinner". Great book, and there's sequels too, so I'll have to purvey meself a bit more of that.
Movie-wise, it was District 9 for me. Great storyline, they actually used South African no-names for many of the roles, and it had a battle with GODDAMN MARINE SPACE ARMOR!
It was the whole package.
Really? District 9 pissed me off. I expected so much more from that movie. Their writers must have got into a big fight or something, because they went the "Let's just have a little baby alien for everyone to awww at, and fuck the rest of this shit" route.
Quote from: Cuddlefish on February 05, 2011, 06:52:07 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 05, 2011, 06:14:29 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on February 05, 2011, 06:12:24 PM
The last "Sci-fi" proper that impressed me was Neal Asher's "Skinner". Great book, and there's sequels too, so I'll have to purvey meself a bit more of that.
Movie-wise, it was District 9 for me. Great storyline, they actually used South African no-names for many of the roles, and it had a battle with GODDAMN MARINE SPACE ARMOR!
It was the whole package.
Really? District 9 pissed me off. I expected so much more from that movie. Their writers must have got into a big fight or something, because they went the "Let's just have a little baby alien for everyone to awww at, and fuck the rest of this shit" route.
God gives you that hilarious battle scene, and you want MORE?
Ungrateful fucking wretch.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 05, 2011, 06:14:29 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on February 05, 2011, 06:12:24 PM
The last "Sci-fi" proper that impressed me was Neal Asher's "Skinner". Great book, and there's sequels too, so I'll have to purvey meself a bit more of that.
Movie-wise, it was District 9 for me. Great storyline, they actually used South African no-names for many of the roles, and it had a battle with GODDAMN MARINE SPACE ARMOR!
It was the whole package.
Plotwise, I am unsure of how I feel about District 9. It was very interesting for the atrocities that humans seemed to be so prone to, and then that ambiguous downer ending.... but at points it was confusing and I thought it kinda dragged in the middle a bit.
But that fucking battle scene was epic as fuck. :fap:
I'll have to give that a watch then. Epic battles, Space Armoured Marines, sounds good to me.
Quote from: BadBeast on February 05, 2011, 07:10:19 PM
I'll have to give that a watch then. Epic battles, Space Armoured Marines, sounds good to me.
Technically, it was just one guy in a battlesuit, but still EPIC.
Also, you're going to LOVE the alien weapons. Don't anyone tell him.
No spoilers then, *Fingers in ears* "La, la, la, lala,ala"
I loved district 9, but I also found it incredibly narmy. That only added to my enjoyment, of course.
District 9 was
FUCKED.
UP.
But I loved it because of the battle scene. Also it isn't that ambiguous of an ending, it's pretty obvious what happened to him.
Quote from: Sister Fracture on February 06, 2011, 12:59:25 AM
District 9 was
FUCKED.
UP.
But I loved it because of the battle scene. Also it isn't that ambiguous of an ending, it's pretty obvious what happened to him.
There are people who think the ending was ambiguous? :?
I thought District 9 was great....I just wonder how they're going to handle the sequels. There is a lot of potential for the original theme of the first movie to be undercut if, say, an alien fleet shows up in force and asks the SA Government "WTF are you doing to our people?"
The last science fiction film that I saw and loved was Timecrimes. A guy ends up traveling one hour into the past and is morally flexible about getting his other self into the time machine so that he can return to his life. The plot is fairly easy to follow because it's about self deception more than logical paradoxes.
Watch it before the remake is released. :argh!:
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 01, 2011, 01:35:33 PMThe Diamond Age,
Philip K Dick, Ubik
Thanks. I'm getting these two.