Now translated from the Russian. http://ymarkov.livejournal.com/270570.html
Concept: JRR Tolkein's Lord of the Rings can often be taken as a piece of racist propaganda. In 1999, Dr. Kirill Yeskov wrote a reversal of this story, telling what the war was really about, in real world terms of power and economics. In this light, Mordor becomes an enlightened kingdom of many races, with great high culture and learning, with Sauron as the enlightened king, trolls become the great smithers and miners, oracuen become sympathetic characters as people. Opposing, the Free Men of the West are shown as power hungry and cruel, horrific in their methods, and Gandalf as a racist fool. Dr. Yeskov reconstructed this story after finding ways that the Middle Earth maps and the Lord of the Rings propaganda don't line up.
A link to the PDF: http://www.sendspace.com/file/a75r7u
:lulz:
After I wake up some more I will have to read it.
Excellent.
Of course, it is clear to anyone who has read Tolkein's letters that he was in fact deeply troubled by certain aspects of the Lord of the Rings, including his portrayal of Orcs in particular, but so many fail authors further down the line have cribbed this aspect from his writing without even thinking about the implications of it, so I'm OK with people picking at it to prove a point.
Quote from: Cain on February 07, 2011, 06:10:22 PM
Excellent.
Of course, it is clear to anyone who has read Tolkein's letters that he was in fact deeply troubled by certain aspects of the Lord of the Rings, including his portrayal of Orcs in particular, but so many fail authors further down the line have cribbed this aspect from his writing without even thinking about the implications of it, so I'm OK with people picking at it to prove a point.
I meant "racist propaganda" more from an in world portrayal view. As in, the Free Men of the West, the victors, wrote the story. Revisionist history, if you will.
Okay, this is just silly. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 08:12:31 PM
Okay, this is just silly. :lulz:
Yeah, showing smugy humans as people is pretty silly too, I guess. Wait, what?
Quote from: ϗ on February 07, 2011, 08:28:01 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 08:12:31 PM
Okay, this is just silly. :lulz:
Yeah, showing smugy humans as people is pretty silly too, I guess. Wait, what?
Last I checked, Martin Luther King Jr didn't eat people.
Sometimes a fantasy novel is just a Goddamn fantasy novel.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 08:34:02 PM
Quote from: ϗ on February 07, 2011, 08:28:01 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 08:12:31 PM
Okay, this is just silly. :lulz:
Yeah, showing smugy humans as people is pretty silly too, I guess. Wait, what?
Last I checked, Martin Luther King Jr didn't eat people.
Sometimes a fantasy novel is just a Goddamn fantasy novel.
Meh.
Quote from: ϗ on February 07, 2011, 09:06:00 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 08:34:02 PM
Quote from: ϗ on February 07, 2011, 08:28:01 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 08:12:31 PM
Okay, this is just silly. :lulz:
Yeah, showing smugy humans as people is pretty silly too, I guess. Wait, what?
Last I checked, Martin Luther King Jr didn't eat people.
Sometimes a fantasy novel is just a Goddamn fantasy novel.
Meh.
Well, okay. Then we'll need to examine/get rid of:
1. JRR Tolkien
2. Samuel Clemmens
3. Shakespeare
4. Kipling
5. Herman Melville
I could go on for days, but I think you get the point.
TGRR,
Shameless upholder of horrible racists like Mark Twain.
In his foreword to the work Tolkien expressed his dislike of allegory: "As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical... It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted."
Tolkien also writes, "... I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presences. I much prefer history, true or feigned. ... I think many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides to the freedom of the reader, and the other in the proposed domination of the author." [1] (http://everything2.com/title/Tolkien+wrote+history+not+allegories)
so it sounds like while Tolkien did not intend his works to an analogue of the real world, he was open to the idea that his readers might be able to use his work to talk about real issues.
Fuck. Outrage Crammed. :lulz:
The premise is pretty ridiculous, but if it's well-written it sounds like it could be a fun read anyway.
but yeah, Orcs weren't a different race in the sense that we use the term today, they were an entirely different species. A species that ate other sentient species, sometimes just for fun.
If being anti-orc makes me a racist, then so does being, say, anti-polar bear or anti-baboon. :lulz:
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 07, 2011, 09:22:33 PM
but yeah, Orcs weren't a different race in the sense that we use the term today, they were an entirely different species. A species that ate other sentient species, sometimes just for fun.
If being anti-orc makes me a racist, then so does being, say, anti-polar bear or anti-baboon. :lulz:
Poor cave trolls. They just want to make stuff and maybe snack on someone or two, and these awful White people show up and fucking their shit.
:sad:
Wow. I took the whole thing as a funny.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:35:25 PM
Wow. I took the whole thing as a funny.
Well, that's because you're a horrible reactionary racist.
So there.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 09:36:52 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:35:25 PM
Wow. I took the whole thing as a funny.
Well, that's because you're a horrible reactionary racist.
So there.
FUCK YOU, YOU HONKY BASTARD!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 09:41:11 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:38:53 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 09:36:52 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:35:25 PM
Wow. I took the whole thing as a funny.
Well, that's because you're a horrible reactionary racist.
So there.
FUCK YOU, YOU HONKY BASTARD!
KISS MY EMPIRIALIST ASS!
MOVE YOUR FUCKING NOSE FIRST!
:drama1:
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:41:49 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 09:41:11 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:38:53 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 09:36:52 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:35:25 PM
Wow. I took the whole thing as a funny.
Well, that's because you're a horrible reactionary racist.
So there.
FUCK YOU, YOU HONKY BASTARD!
KISS MY EMPIRIALIST ASS!
MOVE YOUR FUCKING NOSE FIRST!
EAT ENTRENCHED PATRIARCHY, HIPPIE!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 09:45:11 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:41:49 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 09:41:11 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:38:53 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 09:36:52 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:35:25 PM
Wow. I took the whole thing as a funny.
Well, that's because you're a horrible reactionary racist.
So there.
FUCK YOU, YOU HONKY BASTARD!
KISS MY EMPIRIALIST ASS!
MOVE YOUR FUCKING NOSE FIRST!
EAT ENTRENCHED PATRIARCHY, HIPPIE!
SUCK MY NATIVE AMERICAN HEMROIDS, THEY TASTE LIKE BLACK WALNUTS.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:47:51 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 09:45:11 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:41:49 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 09:41:11 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:38:53 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 07, 2011, 09:36:52 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 07, 2011, 09:35:25 PM
Wow. I took the whole thing as a funny.
Well, that's because you're a horrible reactionary racist.
So there.
FUCK YOU, YOU HONKY BASTARD!
KISS MY EMPIRIALIST ASS!
MOVE YOUR FUCKING NOSE FIRST!
EAT ENTRENCHED PATRIARCHY, HIPPIE!
SUCK MY NATIVE AMERICAN HEMROIDS, THEY TASTE LIKE BLACK WALNUTS.
SEE! COME SEE THE RACISM INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM!
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g334/Doctor_James_Semaj/OrcMovement.jpg?t=1297116738)
:lulz:
Je. sus. Christ. The meh was for "I'm really too tired for this sort of bullshit argument right now, especially about something so banal." If you think it's silly, whatever, if you like it, whatever, if you disagree about something, whatever. In hindsight, I probably should have just sent it to Cain.
QuoteJe. sus. Christ. The meh was for "I'm really too tired for this sort of bullshit argument right now, especially about something so banal." If you think it's silly, whatever, if you like it, whatever, if you disagree about something, whatever. In hindsight, I probably should have just sent it to Cain.
Naw, thought the idea was cool, just saw a joke and pounced on it. Will probably read it sometime.
Quote from: ϗ on February 07, 2011, 10:41:57 PM
:lulz:
Je. sus. Christ. The meh was for "I'm really too tired for this sort of bullshit argument right now, especially about something so banal." If you think it's silly, whatever, if you like it, whatever, if you disagree about something, whatever. In hindsight, I probably should have just sent it to Cain.
Relax, just having fun.
TGRR,
Is laughing, but not at you or anything.
Also of the same genre:
9 Famous Movie Villains Who Were Right All Along
http://www.cracked.com/article_18417_the-lighter-side-dark-side-5-villains-who-were-good.html
Fragments of a generic fantasy novel
http://yudkowsky.net/other/fiction/the-sword-of-good
It sounds interesting.
Tolkein actually wrote an overview of LOTR would have looked like it had actually been intended as an allegory, because he was sick of the suggestion it was political. All I remember is the hobbits got fucked over no matter who won.
I'm two-thirds of the way through this, and it's a decent read. The translation is clumsy in places where it appears to have been translated literally with no regard for the peculiar Russian literary treatment of tenses, but it's a hell of alot better than 99.99% of any other fanfic I've ever read.
Just to say:
while of course liking LOTR doesn't make you racist, it is equally true there are certain tropes within the fantasy genre as a whole, which was pretty much in its modern form invented by Tolkein, that do have an appeal to that kind of person. I do not think it is for an appreciation of fine British writing that Italian neofascist militias in the 70s named their training camps after locations in Lord of the Rings (elven and hobbit name places, for those wondering). And the volkisch emphasis on the rural, rustic way of life as opposed to the modern, technologically driven way of living is something which is easily read into LOTR, especially in the Scouring of the Shire (though equally, the precursors to Italian fascism were the futurists, who loved modern technology). Not to mention seeing ones enemies as subhuman and not needing to be shown any mercy, as they are inherently evil...
In the hands of less capable writers, these tropes become noticeably more troublesome and hard to ignore. The Iron Dream by American sci-fi/fantasy writer Norman Spinrad is actually a rather good take on this, as it is obstensibly an alternative history fictional novel written by Adolf Hitler (who, in this work, came to America after WWI as an artist and later writer) and is replete with Nazi themes which were not out of place in the pulp sci-fi and fantasy writing of the time. In fact, Spinrad did almost too good a job with the book, as it ended up on several neofascist reading lists over the years.
I've just read Stan Nicholls' "Orcs" trilogy, "Army of Shadows".
It's a better than average fantasy, nicely re-inventing the Orc's role, as complex, proud Warriors, much maligned by the other races.
Kind of like Klingons, without the fat ugly heads. And of course, maghjickal artifacts, and noble quests.
My favorite take on orcs is, regrettaby, 40K. It's not that they're low minded insane megalomaniacs whose motives are painfully simple/simply painful, it's the subtext that for them, there is no hardship. They're the only race in the galaxy that is truly at peace with the world, which is to say, only happy during wars.