I'll be starting high level campaign Saturday (hopefully). I'm looking at doing a Tucker's Kobolds style mission for the opening. One of the things from that I want to have them do is shooting crossbows through murder holes.
The catch here is that Pathfinder tends to lend itself to fairly high AC values, and most of the low level monsters have very low attack bonuses, (A kobold for example has a +3 for ranged attacks). So the question is, how do I get low level monsters to actually hit the PCs on something other than a natural 20?
Rogue levels.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 09, 2011, 12:02:12 AM
I'll be starting high level campaign Saturday (hopefully).
Boing. Bad move. But anyway...
What worked in 1st ed doesn't work now.
Don't have them engage in melee. Have them trigger command-detonated traps, nets, etc.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 12:08:59 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 09, 2011, 12:02:12 AM
I'll be starting high level campaign Saturday (hopefully).
Boing. Bad move. But anyway...
What worked in 1st ed doesn't work now.
Don't have them engage in melee. Have them trigger command-detonated traps, nets, etc.
Google IED training.
That.
If you're married to the idea of crossbows through murder holes, let the little bastards rig up a series of crossbows, fired in batches from a couple safe vantage points.
Here's a cheery thought, guaranteed to warm the hearts of your party. That sheen on the floor? When the flint arrowheads start sparking off the floor and walls, the oil ignites...
I agree. Turn it into some crazy kobold mechanism and give it an attack bonus appropriate for the encounter.
I have, if anybody is interested, decided to combine the being shot at through murder holes bit with the bit where the wererats release something nasty from a cage (haven't decided what yet).
They still won't do much, but they'll count more as a bonus than an actual encounter.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 09, 2011, 08:12:55 AM
I have, if anybody is interested, decided to combine the being shot at through murder holes bit with the bit where the wererats release something nasty from a cage (haven't decided what yet).
They still won't do much, but they'll count more as a bonus than an actual encounter.
Giant mutant rat. (Build your own, whatever will make a real challenge for your players, with the added hail of crossbow bolts for spice.) Play it up, huge, mangy, ugly, drooling critter. When the party brings it down and searches it (they always search it), they find a collar, with the name "Fluffy" lovingly worked into the leather.
Have them do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZVm8dMcuBw).
The only rationalle for kobolds surviving as a species is:
1. Low ceilings, and
2. SCIENCE. Don't think of them as warriors, think of them as combat engineers.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 03:07:25 PM
The only rationalle for kobolds surviving as a species is:
1. Low ceilings, and
2. SCIENCE. Don't think of them as warriors, think of them as combat engineers.
There is nothing, NOTHING as entertaining as the look on your plate-mail wearing burly-man realizing that he's gotta strip to his skivvies if he wants to follow the li'l buggers down the hole.
Quote from: Luna on February 09, 2011, 03:21:33 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 03:07:25 PM
The only rationalle for kobolds surviving as a species is:
1. Low ceilings, and
2. SCIENCE. Don't think of them as warriors, think of them as combat engineers.
There is nothing, NOTHING as entertaining as the look on your plate-mail wearing burly-man realizing that he's gotta strip to his skivvies if he wants to follow the li'l buggers down the hole.
Or the look on the wizard's face as the kobold on the other side of the ventilation fan throws a bag of broken glass into it.
So, you should think about Kobolds not as "creatures that attack the PCs", but as "creatures that activate death machines that attack the PCs"?
I would think that while a kobold hitting you with a sword wouldn't do much, a kobold dropping half a ton of active volcano on your head would?
So instead of a game where everyone lines up in easily flankable rows to havea stand-up fight against squishable hateable little baddies, you're proposing that players get dragged through tiny caverns being maliciously tricked with deadly intent at every corner?
PERFECT.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 09, 2011, 03:25:46 PM
So, you should think about Kobolds not as "creatures that attack the PCs", but as "creatures that activate death machines that attack the PCs"?
I would think that while a kobold hitting you with a sword wouldn't do much, a kobold dropping half a ton of active volcano on your head would?
Dragon biting you: Hurts.
Kobold dropping an avil on you from the top of the tower that's over their lair? Hurts more.
Also, the boss should be a sorc (dragon bloodline) into dragon disciple. If he's high enough level to cast 4th level spells, BLACK TENTACLES. No shit.
Any full out kobold tribe is going to have assloads of sorcs.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 03:29:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 09, 2011, 03:25:46 PM
So, you should think about Kobolds not as "creatures that attack the PCs", but as "creatures that activate death machines that attack the PCs"?
I would think that while a kobold hitting you with a sword wouldn't do much, a kobold dropping half a ton of active volcano on your head would?
Dragon biting you: Hurts.
Kobold dropping an avil on you from the top of the tower that's over their lair? Hurts more.
Also, the boss should be a sorc (dragon bloodline) into dragon disciple. If he's high enough level to cast 4th level spells, BLACK TENTACLES. No shit.
Any full out kobold tribe is going to have assloads of sorcs.
I miss playing Francis. :cry:
Quote from: Richter on February 09, 2011, 03:27:23 PM
So instead of a game where everyone lines up in easily flankable rows to havea stand-up fight against squishable hateable little baddies, you're proposing that players get dragged through tiny caverns being maliciously tricked with deadly intent at every corner?
PERFECT.
Grease spell on the stairs FTW. On first level sorc kobold does 3d6 damage to everyone in the party by using a 1st level spell.
The side-dish of "we can NOT be getting our asses handed to us by kobolds" is truly delicious. Note that, if you've done it right the first time, you will never, EVER get away with it again with the same party. They'll never, ever enter kobold caves again.
(By the way... Placing a small, labeled bowl for each PC in front of you, filling with M&M's equal to their hit points, and eating said M&Ms as their hit points dwindle? Awesome, until they try to feed you the bowls.)
Quote from: Luna on February 09, 2011, 03:56:18 PM
The side-dish of "we can NOT be getting our asses handed to us by kobolds" is truly delicious. Note that, if you've done it right the first time, you will never, EVER get away with it again with the same party. They'll never, ever enter kobold caves again.
(By the way... Placing a small, labeled bowl for each PC in front of you, filling with M&M's equal to their hit points, and eating said M&Ms as their hit points dwindle? Awesome, until they try to feed you the bowls.)
I sat in on the game that inspired that gag in KoDT. :lulz:
TGRR,
Used to work for Kenzer.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 04:02:29 PM
Quote from: Luna on February 09, 2011, 03:56:18 PM
The side-dish of "we can NOT be getting our asses handed to us by kobolds" is truly delicious. Note that, if you've done it right the first time, you will never, EVER get away with it again with the same party. They'll never, ever enter kobold caves again.
(By the way... Placing a small, labeled bowl for each PC in front of you, filling with M&M's equal to their hit points, and eating said M&Ms as their hit points dwindle? Awesome, until they try to feed you the bowls.)
I sat in on the game that inspired that gag in KoDT. :lulz:
TGRR,
Used to work for Kenzer.
Heh, don't remember if I picked up the idea from KoDT, it's possible. I just remember one of my players realizing what was happening. (It took me adding M&Ms when there was a heal cast.) The howl of outrage was epic.
Working for Kenzer? Awesome. :D
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 03:29:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 09, 2011, 03:25:46 PM
So, you should think about Kobolds not as "creatures that attack the PCs", but as "creatures that activate death machines that attack the PCs"?
I would think that while a kobold hitting you with a sword wouldn't do much, a kobold dropping half a ton of active volcano on your head would?
Dragon biting you: Hurts.
Kobold dropping an avil on you from the top of the tower that's over their lair? Hurts more.
Also, the boss should be a sorc (dragon bloodline) into dragon disciple. If he's high enough level to cast 4th level spells, BLACK TENTACLES. No shit.
Any full out kobold tribe is going to have assloads of sorcs.
The boss will be a sorc (somebody has to set all those magical traps).
But he's not going to fight them. My goal is to run them through the ringer for a couple hours, then have the Boss offer to give them the hostage (plot hook is that a kid got grabbed when people fought back against a raiding party) if they just leave.
I want to see if I can make the rest of the party will kill the paladin to keep from taking the deal.
If you've done it right, the entire party will leap at the offer.
Of course, if you've got the party where they should be after a couple hours of torture, the boss might decide to keep the kid AND the party...
Oh, exploding runes written on a doorway, I have to use that. :lulz:
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 09, 2011, 04:49:53 PM
Oh, exploding runes written on a doorway, I have to use that. :lulz:
Or on the spines of books on a shelf.
NO PARTY CAN RESIST A BOOKSHELF.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 09, 2011, 04:49:53 PM
Oh, exploding runes written on a doorway, I have to use that. :lulz:
Magic mouth.
Programmed to utter the trigger word for a trap, when approached by anyone taller than 5' tall.
Followed by peals of kobold laughter.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 04:54:33 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 09, 2011, 04:49:53 PM
Oh, exploding runes written on a doorway, I have to use that. :lulz:
Or on the spines of books on a shelf.
NO PARTY CAN RESIST A BOOKSHELF.
Good odds on tagging the mage with that one, too. They're usually cautious bastards, and let the rogues and the fighters walk into the good traps.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 04:54:33 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 09, 2011, 04:49:53 PM
Oh, exploding runes written on a doorway, I have to use that. :lulz:
Or on the spines of books on a shelf.
NO PARTY CAN RESIST A BOOKSHELF.
That one would be particularly screwed up given that books are highly valuable in the setting I'm making...
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 09, 2011, 04:59:21 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 04:54:33 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 09, 2011, 04:49:53 PM
Oh, exploding runes written on a doorway, I have to use that. :lulz:
Or on the spines of books on a shelf.
NO PARTY CAN RESIST A BOOKSHELF.
That one would be particularly screwed up given that books are highly valuable in the setting I'm making...
Detect magic is your friend. There is no good reason for evocation magic to be on a book.
Idea: Trap the kobolds' treasure. For example, say one of your PCs successfully kills a kobold and he drops a crossbow. You can tell them that kobold crossbows are specially engineered to add a large bonus to-hit. This would justify them hitting the players with any frequency. But the crossbows are designed to fire in a counter-intuitive way that requires special training, and anyone who pulls the trigger without knowing how to properly use the kobold-engineered mechanism gets a poison needle in the palm of their hand for their troubles.
Quote from: Unqualified on February 09, 2011, 07:18:41 PM
Idea: Trap the kobolds' treasure. For example, say one of your PCs successfully kills a kobold and he drops a crossbow. You can tell them that kobold crossbows are specially engineered to add a large bonus to-hit. This would justify them hitting the players with any frequency. But the crossbows are designed to fire in a counter-intuitive way that requires special training, and anyone who pulls the trigger without knowing how to properly use the kobold-engineered mechanism gets a poison needle in the palm of their hand for their troubles.
Yeek, no. Bastard PCs will figure that out in no time, plug up the needle hole, and then have a crossbow with a massive to-hit bonus.
Quote from: Luna on February 09, 2011, 07:21:39 PM
Quote from: Unqualified on February 09, 2011, 07:18:41 PM
Idea: Trap the kobolds' treasure. For example, say one of your PCs successfully kills a kobold and he drops a crossbow. You can tell them that kobold crossbows are specially engineered to add a large bonus to-hit. This would justify them hitting the players with any frequency. But the crossbows are designed to fire in a counter-intuitive way that requires special training, and anyone who pulls the trigger without knowing how to properly use the kobold-engineered mechanism gets a poison needle in the palm of their hand for their troubles.
Yeek, no. Bastard PCs will figure that out in no time, plug up the needle hole, and then have a crossbow with a massive to-hit bonus.
This is the correct answer. Buffing monsters with items = buffing players with items, because unless it's a TPK, all those goodies go to the players.
Also, the rules do not allow for a higher than +1/+0 bonus for high quality gear.
(Side note/Disclaimer, I'm pulling answers out of my hat with little to no knowledge of Pathfinder. I've just been playing D&D since grade school, and have read enough Pathfinder to survive character creation and a couple of sessions.)
Ok then, there are probably better ways to trap it. Eliminating the bonus but including the needle sounds effective enough, though I suppose it removes incentive to use the kobolds' treasure and trigger the trap in the first place. Maybe kobold crossbows could be worth less and therefore less likely to be used as vendor trash by the players? Or maybe you could scatter magic items about in the same fashion as in any other dungeon, but trap them. Which I suppose probably occurs often enough as it is.
I have very little experience with DnD, as in I've never played in a campaign that got to level 4. Not because of any TPK, but because it just never worked out. So I don't really know what I'm doing.
Quote from: Unqualified on February 09, 2011, 07:44:16 PM
Ok then, there are probably better ways to trap it. Eliminating the bonus but including the needle sounds effective enough, though I suppose it removes incentive to use the kobolds' treasure and trigger the trap in the first place. Maybe kobold crossbows could be worth less and therefore less likely to be used as vendor trash by the players? Or maybe you could scatter magic items about in the same fashion as in any other dungeon, but trap them. Which I suppose probably occurs often enough as it is.
I have very little experience with DnD, as in I've never played in a campaign that got to level 4. Not because of any TPK, but because it just never worked out. So I don't really know what I'm doing.
My players usually don't deal with vendor trash. Easy answer, bulky treasure. If their treasure is a large, fragile urn, and they have to figure how to pack it out, they don't bother with crappy kobold weapons that nobody wants, anyway.
Quote from: Unqualified on February 09, 2011, 07:44:16 PM
I have very little experience with DnD, as in I've never played in a campaign that got to level 4. Not because of any TPK, but because it just never worked out. So I don't really know what I'm doing.
There's an art to keeping a campaign going. I feel a rant coming on.
Quote from: Luna on February 09, 2011, 08:02:15 PM
Quote from: Unqualified on February 09, 2011, 07:44:16 PM
Ok then, there are probably better ways to trap it. Eliminating the bonus but including the needle sounds effective enough, though I suppose it removes incentive to use the kobolds' treasure and trigger the trap in the first place. Maybe kobold crossbows could be worth less and therefore less likely to be used as vendor trash by the players? Or maybe you could scatter magic items about in the same fashion as in any other dungeon, but trap them. Which I suppose probably occurs often enough as it is.
I have very little experience with DnD, as in I've never played in a campaign that got to level 4. Not because of any TPK, but because it just never worked out. So I don't really know what I'm doing.
My players usually don't deal with vendor trash. Easy answer, bulky treasure. If their treasure is a large, fragile urn, and they have to figure how to pack it out, they don't bother with crappy kobold weapons that nobody wants, anyway.
Item spell deals with that, or floating disc.
But it's sometimes a good idea to train the wizard into carrying some utility spells.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 08:11:20 PM
Quote from: Luna on February 09, 2011, 08:02:15 PM
Quote from: Unqualified on February 09, 2011, 07:44:16 PM
Ok then, there are probably better ways to trap it. Eliminating the bonus but including the needle sounds effective enough, though I suppose it removes incentive to use the kobolds' treasure and trigger the trap in the first place. Maybe kobold crossbows could be worth less and therefore less likely to be used as vendor trash by the players? Or maybe you could scatter magic items about in the same fashion as in any other dungeon, but trap them. Which I suppose probably occurs often enough as it is.
I have very little experience with DnD, as in I've never played in a campaign that got to level 4. Not because of any TPK, but because it just never worked out. So I don't really know what I'm doing.
My players usually don't deal with vendor trash. Easy answer, bulky treasure. If their treasure is a large, fragile urn, and they have to figure how to pack it out, they don't bother with crappy kobold weapons that nobody wants, anyway.
Item spell deals with that, or floating disc.
But it's sometimes a good idea to train the wizard into carrying some utility spells.
Yup. But when your mage loads up on damage-dealing spells instead of balancing 'em with useful spells like that...
And the one time bright boy decided to bring an Item spell... they found a very valuable, reasonably fragile chess set... with halfling sized pieces. (Ceramic, set with gems. Yep, the gems got pried out and taken, and they ate the value of the pieces, whining the whole way.)
Also, I can be a bitch about cashing in on non-coin treasures. Gems, sure, easy, buyers can be found, but artwork... That can be tough.
Quote from: Luna on February 09, 2011, 08:16:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 08:11:20 PM
Quote from: Luna on February 09, 2011, 08:02:15 PM
Quote from: Unqualified on February 09, 2011, 07:44:16 PM
Ok then, there are probably better ways to trap it. Eliminating the bonus but including the needle sounds effective enough, though I suppose it removes incentive to use the kobolds' treasure and trigger the trap in the first place. Maybe kobold crossbows could be worth less and therefore less likely to be used as vendor trash by the players? Or maybe you could scatter magic items about in the same fashion as in any other dungeon, but trap them. Which I suppose probably occurs often enough as it is.
I have very little experience with DnD, as in I've never played in a campaign that got to level 4. Not because of any TPK, but because it just never worked out. So I don't really know what I'm doing.
My players usually don't deal with vendor trash. Easy answer, bulky treasure. If their treasure is a large, fragile urn, and they have to figure how to pack it out, they don't bother with crappy kobold weapons that nobody wants, anyway.
Item spell deals with that, or floating disc.
But it's sometimes a good idea to train the wizard into carrying some utility spells.
Yup. But when your mage loads up on damage-dealing spells instead of balancing 'em with useful spells like that...
And the one time bright boy decided to bring an Item spell... they found a very valuable, reasonably fragile chess set... with halfling sized pieces. (Ceramic, set with gems. Yep, the gems got pried out and taken, and they ate the value of the pieces, whining the whole way.)
Also, I can be a bitch about cashing in on non-coin treasures. Gems, sure, easy, buyers can be found, but artwork... That can be tough.
That's kinda cheap, unless you're doing it to hook them into dealing with a fence.
What sort of saving roll is there for applied chemistry?
Like, knowing that Item A (non-magical) will have a volitile effect when it comes into contact with Item B (also non-magical), or even Environment B?
Because that could make for interesting treasure/dungeon interactions.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 08:20:28 PM
Quote from: Luna on February 09, 2011, 08:16:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 08:11:20 PM
Quote from: Luna on February 09, 2011, 08:02:15 PM
Quote from: Unqualified on February 09, 2011, 07:44:16 PM
Ok then, there are probably better ways to trap it. Eliminating the bonus but including the needle sounds effective enough, though I suppose it removes incentive to use the kobolds' treasure and trigger the trap in the first place. Maybe kobold crossbows could be worth less and therefore less likely to be used as vendor trash by the players? Or maybe you could scatter magic items about in the same fashion as in any other dungeon, but trap them. Which I suppose probably occurs often enough as it is.
I have very little experience with DnD, as in I've never played in a campaign that got to level 4. Not because of any TPK, but because it just never worked out. So I don't really know what I'm doing.
My players usually don't deal with vendor trash. Easy answer, bulky treasure. If their treasure is a large, fragile urn, and they have to figure how to pack it out, they don't bother with crappy kobold weapons that nobody wants, anyway.
Item spell deals with that, or floating disc.
But it's sometimes a good idea to train the wizard into carrying some utility spells.
Yup. But when your mage loads up on damage-dealing spells instead of balancing 'em with useful spells like that...
And the one time bright boy decided to bring an Item spell... they found a very valuable, reasonably fragile chess set... with halfling sized pieces. (Ceramic, set with gems. Yep, the gems got pried out and taken, and they ate the value of the pieces, whining the whole way.)
Also, I can be a bitch about cashing in on non-coin treasures. Gems, sure, easy, buyers can be found, but artwork... That can be tough.
That's kinda cheap, unless you're doing it to hook them into dealing with a fence.
Yeah, they can usually deal with somebody who's willing to take it on spec... Jewelry can be sold to the local jeweler, taking into account he'll want to mark it up for resale, for example. (Some of my players are bright enough to hang on to at least some of their jewelry for portability and bribes.) And, if they're creative in selling the stuff, I grant bonus exps for RP brilliance.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 09, 2011, 08:24:54 PM
What sort of saving roll is there for applied chemistry?
Like, knowing that Item A (non-magical) will have a volitile effect when it comes into contact with Item B (also non-magical), or even Environment B?
Because that could make for interesting treasure/dungeon interactions.
Interesting thought, I suppose it would be an alchemy roll. And then only if they actually inspected the loot, instead of just grabbing everything that isn't nailed down and checking it later.
I figured out the murder holes.
Hallway with a spiked ceiling, Small bipeds have to crouch, mediums have to crawl. (there will be a second route, but the ceiling will be rigged to collapse, blocking the path and acting as a crushing trap).
Longspears through the murder holes. -4 AC for squeezing through a tight space, -4 from melee attacks for being prone (-2 for small chars). Attackers will be getting +1 from high ground, and +2 from flanking (except the rogue). For a total of +11 attack.
Also, I need a good +2 or +3 template for use on dire lions that won't interfere with their rake or pounce abilities. Preferably this should be something that can be chalked up to the kobold sorcs creating abominations of nature.
Fiendish (+1) , and give them more racial HD to increase their CR.
Quote from: Sister Fracture on February 09, 2011, 08:48:28 PM
Fiendish (+1) , and give them more racial HD to increase their CR.
Not really feasible for a whole tribe.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 09, 2011, 08:24:54 PM
What sort of saving roll is there for applied chemistry?
Like, knowing that Item A (non-magical) will have a volitile effect when it comes into contact with Item B (also non-magical), or even Environment B?
Because that could make for interesting treasure/dungeon interactions.
Depends on the effect.
If it's a poison, it's a fortitude save, balanced for the group.
If it's asplodey, it's a reflex save, etc.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 09, 2011, 08:44:01 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 09, 2011, 08:24:54 PM
What sort of saving roll is there for applied chemistry?
Like, knowing that Item A (non-magical) will have a volitile effect when it comes into contact with Item B (also non-magical), or even Environment B?
Because that could make for interesting treasure/dungeon interactions.
Interesting thought, I suppose it would be an alchemy roll. And then only if they actually inspected the loot, instead of just grabbing everything that isn't nailed down and checking it later.
I figured out the murder holes.
Hallway with a spiked ceiling, Small bipeds have to crouch, mediums have to crawl. (there will be a second route, but the ceiling will be rigged to collapse, blocking the path and acting as a crushing trap).
Longspears through the murder holes. -4 AC for squeezing through a tight space, -4 from melee attacks for being prone (-2 for small chars). Attackers will be getting +1 from high ground, and +2 from flanking (except the rogue). For a total of +11 attack.
Also, I need a good +2 or +3 template for use on dire lions that won't interfere with their rake or pounce abilities. Preferably this should be something that can be chalked up to the kobold sorcs creating abominations of nature.
Right on. Alchemy skill check if it's a purposeful attempt to make a reaction that isn't otherwise occuring.
Like with Roger's block of sodium over a pond trap (aside from the ants and the lobster), I'd say whether the substance of a treasure interacted badly with the environment would be a matter of how well the PC's packed it, and adjust the probability for it to react appropriately.
(If anyone has any applicable skills, I will ask for skill checks to have them "remember" safe handling instructions.)
Example: Party finds a crate of dynamite. Oldschool dynamite. If they take the time to wrap it in an oilcloth sack, no worries.
If they don't, and say.. pass through a foggy marshland or other humid environ for a certain amount of time, then the nitro in the dynamite will recondense on the outisde of the tubes (VERY voaltile.) Any bad handling, or failure against a trip, slam, or charge attack, (basically anythign which would cause a sudden shock) now sets it off, and we roll up damage for teh whole box at once.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 09:47:43 PM
Quote from: Sister Fracture on February 09, 2011, 08:48:28 PM
Fiendish (+1) , and give them more racial HD to increase their CR.
Not really feasible for a whole tribe.
For a pride of lions? Sure it would!
Boss Sorc makes Dire Lion 1 and Dire Lion 2 Fiendish with diabolical magical rituals.
Dire Lion 1 and 2 have babies.
A pride is formed!
Whoops, lost the plot.
Requia/Cram: There is no Knowledge (alchemy) skill in Pathfinder. There is craft (alchemy), knowledge (arcana) and spellcraft.
Also, having a few of the kobolds have levels in Alchemist would be interesting.
Nothing like pint-sized bomb-throwing maniacs. You know, like Ireland in D&D.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 10:01:31 PM
Also, having a few of the kobolds have levels in Alchemist would be interesting.
Nothing like pint-sized bomb-throwing maniacs. You know, like Ireland in D&D.
:lulz: Yes.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 10:01:31 PM
Also, having a few of the kobolds have levels in Alchemist would be interesting.
Nothing like pint-sized bomb-throwing maniacs. You know, like Ireland in D&D.
Done, also my kobolds now have (bad) Irish accents :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 10:01:31 PM
Also, having a few of the kobolds have levels in Alchemist would be interesting.
Nothing like pint-sized bomb-throwing maniacs. You know, like Ireland in D&D.
How well does the Alchemist class actually work? I imagine it plays radically different from any of the core classes.
Not really, though I haven't read it since playtesting, will have to check it again when I start statting the kobolds. It has a limited number/day bombs (that can be modified for different kinds of bombs as you level) half spellcasting in the form of potions that are prepared once a day, and a buff ability, fairly normal play but takes a bit to learn the class.
Quote from: Unqualified on February 10, 2011, 02:02:26 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 10:01:31 PM
Also, having a few of the kobolds have levels in Alchemist would be interesting.
Nothing like pint-sized bomb-throwing maniacs. You know, like Ireland in D&D.
How well does the Alchemist class actually work? I imagine it plays radically different from any of the core classes.
It's crap as a PC class, really. It makes a good bad guy, but it's unplayable as a PC. Basically, you make little bombs and Jekyl and Hyde potions & shit. It's gimmicky, but perfect for kobolds.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 10, 2011, 03:36:35 AM
Quote from: Unqualified on February 10, 2011, 02:02:26 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 09, 2011, 10:01:31 PM
Also, having a few of the kobolds have levels in Alchemist would be interesting.
Nothing like pint-sized bomb-throwing maniacs. You know, like Ireland in D&D.
How well does the Alchemist class actually work? I imagine it plays radically different from any of the core classes.
It's crap as a PC class, really. It makes a good bad guy, but it's unplayable as a PC. Basically, you make little bombs and Jekyl and Hyde potions & shit. It's gimmicky, but perfect for kobolds.
If gimmicky is your thing, however, this is right up your alley. (Speaking to a generalized "you".) Just stay out of the way when the fight starts, and stop asking how high the damn roof is, because you're NOT going to fit past the fighters when you're enlarged.
Fracture,
Didn't particularly like playing with that character running around. (Not a jibe at the player, however. I still think the lot of them are rad.)
You're definitely on the right track with setting up the murder holes in such a way as to give the kobolds flanking bonuses.
Make liberal use of difficult terrain. Maybe the kobolds strung a bunch of nets at ankle level above the floor, making it near impossible to run without falling flat on your face, giving the kobolds time to fire and retreat. IIRC some types of difficult terrain give Reflex save penalties, which is handy for your kobold grenadiers/casters.
Shafts can be strategically useful as well. Make the PCs climb a chimney-type shaft while a team of kobolds push heavy rocks down the chute on top of them, or have the obvious path involve hand/footholds carved into a wall. Any character dumb enough to insert a hand into a dark nook in a kobold cave deserves what's coming to him.
Use poison. A cleric with a wand of CLW can reverse the damage from random crossbow hits very effectively, but enough nicks in from poisoned weapons - even crappy stuff like greenblood oil - will eventually slow the party down. A kobold elite who's mastered the art of throwing shuriken can be very good at this.
Kobolds know exactly the right monster for the job. A pit trap is annoying, a pit trap with a gelatinous cube or an assassin vine at the bottom can be deadly. Some monsters - assassin vines and darkmantles in particular - are good at obstructing the PCs while the better prepared kobolds have developed some way to get around whatever the problem is. Higher level campaigns have some problems here, because it's harder to justify kobolds having tamed CR 10+ monsters, but kobolds know enough biology to understand that feeding an ooze organic matter -> bigger ooze.
Water can be powerful as well. If the kobold cave is deep enough, an underground lake might fit in. The kobolds, of course, have figured out that insulated coracles (combined with their natural cold blooded-ness) prevent the heat-sensitive (but blind) cave sharks from detecting them as they cross to the vault located on an island in the center of the lake. If there's a surface lake nearby, the kobolds have a waterproof door that opens directly to the bottom of the lake, flooding the lower levels of the burrow, used either as a trap or a self-destruct device.
Make sure the kobolds have (where appropriate) low-tech solutions to common spells. A sink located near the front will prevent a single cloudkill from exterminating the entire nest. An inch of standing water makes invisible characters obvious. Hanging sheets block line of effect without impeding movement much, and crossbow bolts will go right through them (less penalties for soft cover.) Silence fields are a poor mans antimagic field, and prevent the party from coordinating as effectively. For the kobold spellcasters themselves, they've taken the spells they know into account when designing their lair. A kobold sorc with lightning bolt implies that somewhere in the lair is series of 300' long, 2' wide straight switchbacks with a web spells triggered to activate under the right circumstances. One with dimension door has tiny sealed rooms stocked with food and healing potions within 800' of him at all times.
Doors that can be secured from one side are a must for the constantly retreating kobolds. (I'm thinking 18" steel hatch covers with that bolt shut from one side.)
Fog Cloud and Darkness are cheap and hinder PCs greatly, but traps (or sorcs with AoE spells) don't need to see their targets anyway.
Looking at Alchemist, it solves my original problem nicely. If they miss the target they still do a couple points of splash damage at level 1 (reflex half), that's guaranteed pot shots for a single hit points against anybody without evasion (and the whole party if they cluster together).
Except for
QuoteYou're definitely on the right track with setting up the murder holes in such a way as to give the kobolds flanking bonuses.
because I think she was wanting to go with crossbows, and you can't flank with a ranged weapon, that whole post is awesome and speaks of a great amount of DM experience. Yes?
Quote from: Sister Fracture on February 10, 2011, 04:36:18 AM
Except for QuoteYou're definitely on the right track with setting up the murder holes in such a way as to give the kobolds flanking bonuses.
because I think she was wanting to go with crossbows, and you can't flank with a ranged weapon, that whole post is awesome and speaks of a great amount of DM experience. Yes?
Longspears were mentioned.
And I
love running kobold lairs.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on February 10, 2011, 04:37:53 AM
Quote from: Sister Fracture on February 10, 2011, 04:36:18 AM
Except for QuoteYou're definitely on the right track with setting up the murder holes in such a way as to give the kobolds flanking bonuses.
because I think she was wanting to go with crossbows, and you can't flank with a ranged weapon, that whole post is awesome and speaks of a great amount of DM experience. Yes?
Longspears were mentioned.
And I love running kobold lairs.
Longspears, oyah, You've got it down pat then. :D
I would LOVE to run in one of your kobold lairs if that's just a sample of what Could Be. Also because I wish I could play as a character in the same game as Roger playing a PC. That would be EPIC.
Got the first character sheet in my email. The Rogue only took 5 ranks in disable device. :lulz:
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 11, 2011, 05:13:03 PM
Got the first character sheet in my email. The Rogue only took 5 ranks in disable device. :lulz:
Where do you get people like this?
What level are they starting at? Because any rogue worth a fuck has maxed perception and disable device, plus masterwork thieves' tools, and maybe a feat or two to beef those two skills up.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 11, 2011, 05:13:03 PM
Got the first character sheet in my email. The Rogue only took 5 ranks in disable device. :lulz:
If they have ANY clue they're going into a kobold lair, and the rogue only took 5 ranks, you need a new rogue, or they're gonna TPK on ya.
Level 10
They have *no idea*. This is a bit unusual for me. Hell I think the entire last game I ran I didn't use a trap, unless you count when the hobgoblins rolled a boulder down a hill onto the parties carriage.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 11, 2011, 05:56:56 PM
Level 10
They have *no idea*. This is a bit unusual for me. Hell I think the entire last game I ran I didn't use a trap, unless you count when the hobgoblins rolled a boulder down a hill onto the parties carriage.
:lol:
Any rogue worth a shit will have a total score of 23 on disable device by then. 10 ranks + 3 in class bonus +5 dex, +3 for skill focus +2 for masterwork thieves tools.
Spreading skills around is a bad practice. By level 5, you don't have enough ranks in any skills to keep up with the DCs. Instead of doing it all, you do nothing.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 11, 2011, 06:10:28 PM
you don't have enough ranks in any skills to keep up with the DCs. Instead of doing it all, you do nothing.
There's a life lesson in there, somewhere...
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 11, 2011, 06:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 11, 2011, 06:10:28 PM
you don't have enough ranks in any skills to keep up with the DCs. Instead of doing it all, you do nothing.
There's a life lesson in there, somewhere...
...Right under the huge stone block that fell on the rogue. :lulz:
A level 10 Rogue with 5 ranks...
Christ.
Tell me he didn't put any in perception.
I want a webcam on this session. I wanna be there LIVE.
For the lions, there was an armor (I think it was Armor of the Rhino?) that was relatively inexpensive but made you deal double damage on a charge attack. Giving that to the lions in barding form could get nasty when combined with their pounce ability.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 11, 2011, 06:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 11, 2011, 06:10:28 PM
you don't have enough ranks in any skills to keep up with the DCs. Instead of doing it all, you do nothing.
There's a life lesson in there, somewhere...
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein
On the other hand... One should always save a FEW skill points to cover the avenue that nobody else in the party thought to hit. OVERspecialization can be tough too. (Always have TWO healers, of some type, in the party. That way, when the cleric gets knocked on her ass, you're not totally screwed.)
Yeah, but Heinlein was just a dirty old man who made up pithy statements in order to get young girls to pity fuck him.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 11, 2011, 06:47:27 PM
Yeah, but Heinlein was just a dirty old man who made up pithy statements in order to get young girls to pity fuck him.
Sure, he was. But his books were the first books that I, as an impressionable young girl, got her hands on that even vaguely resembled smut. Therefore, I have a nostalgic fondness for the guy.
(Mom pitched a FIT when she caught me with one of those. Made Dad reorganize his bookshelf so that the "safe" ones were on one shelf that I was allowed to read, the rest on a higher shelf. So, I read the "safe" shelf ones in the living room, and smuggled the rest into the bedroom to read with a flashlight under the covers.)
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 11, 2011, 06:47:27 PM
Yeah, but Heinlein was just a dirty old man who made up pithy statements in order to get young girls to pity fuck him.
He was also a racist swine, and some of his ideas made Ayn Rand read like Ralph Waldo Emerson.
:oops:
I have to admit this no matter how retarded it makes me look....
Every time I see this thread title I see....
Fuckers cuckold the pathfinger....
:oops:
Quote from: Luna on February 11, 2011, 06:43:37 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 11, 2011, 06:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 11, 2011, 06:10:28 PM
you don't have enough ranks in any skills to keep up with the DCs. Instead of doing it all, you do nothing.
There's a life lesson in there, somewhere...
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein
On the other hand... One should always save a FEW skill points to cover the avenue that nobody else in the party thought to hit. OVERspecialization can be tough too. (Always have TWO healers, of some type, in the party. That way, when the cleric gets knocked on her ass, you're not totally screwed.)
And how much of that shit can be done untrained well enough to function at it?
Quote from: Luna on February 11, 2011, 06:43:37 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 11, 2011, 06:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 11, 2011, 06:10:28 PM
you don't have enough ranks in any skills to keep up with the DCs. Instead of doing it all, you do nothing.
There's a life lesson in there, somewhere...
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein
On the other hand... One should always save a FEW skill points to cover the avenue that nobody else in the party thought to hit. OVERspecialization can be tough too. (Always have TWO healers, of some type, in the party. That way, when the cleric gets knocked on her ass, you're not totally screwed.)
It's a rogue, in pathfinder. You can be a specialist *and* a generalist quite easily. I've explained to him how that works (he's been on 3.5 until now) and he's redoing skills.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 11, 2011, 08:27:11 PM
Quote from: Luna on February 11, 2011, 06:43:37 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 11, 2011, 06:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 11, 2011, 06:10:28 PM
you don't have enough ranks in any skills to keep up with the DCs. Instead of doing it all, you do nothing.
There's a life lesson in there, somewhere...
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein
On the other hand... One should always save a FEW skill points to cover the avenue that nobody else in the party thought to hit. OVERspecialization can be tough too. (Always have TWO healers, of some type, in the party. That way, when the cleric gets knocked on her ass, you're not totally screwed.)
It's a rogue, in pathfinder. You can be a specialist *and* a generalist quite easily. I've explained to him how that works (he's been on 3.5 until now) and he's redoing skills.
I'm torn between, "ah, good, it wasn't just because he was a nitwit," and "Oh, damn, the stories would have been epic, if short."
HOW THE HELL DID I PK HALF THE PARTY WITH A CR 10 ENCOUNTER.
QuoteHOW THE HELL DID I PK HALF THE PARTY WITH A CR 10 ENCOUNTER.
This story needs to be told. Please explain.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on March 06, 2011, 05:41:40 AM
HOW THE HELL DID I PK HALF THE PARTY WITH A CR 10 ENCOUNTER.
1. They sucked
2. You made an error in the CR calc
or 3. the dice gods were pissed at them
ETA
Also, it is my understanding that at higher CR player death shouldn't be a shock since "lolressurection" spells
Pair of toxic magma oozes (both CR 8, straight out of the bestiary 2).
Now the thing is, its an ooze, hit it with the wrong weapon and you get two oozes. In this case the wrogn weapon is cold damage and slashing weapons.
So of course, the party proceeds to tear into the oozes with a cold damage enchanted bow. So instead of facing two oozes when it finally covers the distance (one was dropped through the cieling at each end of a hallway, they're facing three. Everybody but the paladin gets grappled. All of them , except the paladin, have shitty CMB and can't really do much while grappled.
This shouldn't be a huge deal, except the paladin, instead of just killing the things (they had about 10 HP left each) goes around giving out lay on hands, which he can't do to the whole party fast enough to avoid them all dying.
We stopped cause of time issues, but I'm going over the notes my players gave me (I expect them to track their own damage, but I keep it between sessions) and they didn't realize that when the pally cured their poison (con damage each) he didn't repair the con damage. So the druid is really dead dead, and the rogue is at -5 and counting (and is dead dead if he fails his next poison saving throw, which will be the very first thing that happens next week).
Of course, all of this could have been avoided had a freaking 21 not matched the druid's AC in the first place.
Come to think, it was the druid splitting the things in two to start with... maybe I should be glad she died.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on March 06, 2011, 05:56:43 AM
Pair of toxic magma oozes (both CR 8, straight out of the bestiary 2).
That's an EL9, not an EL10, which makes it even funnier.
Page 398 says two creatures is CR+2.
Hrm. I'd give 'em a round before you hit them with the "you screwed up on your damage tracking last session," particularly if there's any chance that they could have fixed the problem had they caught it. (I also track character damage, myself, when running a game, less chance of "oops, I forgot to mark that down," but that's a habit from playing at a game store with players I don't know and trust.)
Quote from: Requia ☣ on March 06, 2011, 06:10:37 AM
Page 398 says two creatures is CR+2.
I'm looking at page 398, and it doesn't say that. I'm in a first-printing book, here. What is the subtitle of the paragraph you're using, because my says EL = CR + 1 for every additional like CR.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on March 06, 2011, 05:56:43 AM
Pair of toxic magma oozes (both CR 8, straight out of the bestiary 2).
Now the thing is, its an ooze, hit it with the wrong weapon and you get two oozes. In this case the wrogn weapon is cold damage and slashing weapons.
What? Magma oozes don't split. You confused them with carniverous blob.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 06, 2011, 02:53:23 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on March 06, 2011, 06:10:37 AM
Page 398 says two creatures is CR+2.
I'm looking at page 398, and it doesn't say that. I'm in a first-printing book, here. What is the subtitle of the paragraph you're using, because my says EL = CR + 1 for every additional like CR.
Mine is a fourth printing and agrees with Req's. Subtitle is
High CR Encounters and says to see table 12-3. All on page 398.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 06, 2011, 02:56:40 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on March 06, 2011, 05:56:43 AM
Pair of toxic magma oozes (both CR 8, straight out of the bestiary 2).
Now the thing is, its an ooze, hit it with the wrong weapon and you get two oozes. In this case the wrogn weapon is cold damage and slashing weapons.
What? Magma oozes don't split. You confused them with carniverous blob.
It's under defensive abilities, "split (cold and slashing, 8 hp); "
Quote from: Requia ☣ on March 06, 2011, 07:06:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 06, 2011, 02:56:40 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on March 06, 2011, 05:56:43 AM
Pair of toxic magma oozes (both CR 8, straight out of the bestiary 2).
Now the thing is, its an ooze, hit it with the wrong weapon and you get two oozes. In this case the wrogn weapon is cold damage and slashing weapons.
What? Magma oozes don't split. You confused them with carniverous blob.
It's under defensive abilities, "split (cold and slashing, 8 hp); "
Ho ho! I stand corrected! I shall have to poop one of these onto the party.
The paladin went into the Kobold sized tunnels last night to scout. :lulz:
Sadly, he took a wrong turn and missed the ambush, then gave up and went back.