http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/so_that_makes_you_a_square_in_defence_of_the_hipster/
Quote
We are entering an era where "way of life" music genres (genres which stand oppositional to other genres) are rapidly losing their hold over consumers' aesthetic choices. A love of heavy metal does not now preclude a love of gay disco, just as a love of jazz doesn't preclude a love of rock anymore. However, to an older generation to whom these walls still stand, it can seem as though the only explanation for the liking of oppositional genres is "irony", when this is not the case.
I don't know that I agree with the premise of that quote. Speaking as a metal-head, I knew and know many other metal heads who had no issues talking about how they were into other musical genres. Jazz and classical in particular, especially given the influence both of those genres have had on heavy metal. I mean certainly metal heads are very proud to be metal heads, and will probably wear that more on their sleeve compared to other genres, but I think that has more to do with the fact that metal has largely been a somewhat disrespected genre in the music community.
I think this is a good thing.
Music should always be first and foremost about the fucking music.
"Lifestyle music" or music that appeals to a certain subculture always suffers. Not only that but its given us thousands of shitty screamo garage bands that dont even bother to tune their guitars and just crank up the distortion instead.
You guys should read the article... I just pulled one interesting quote, but it's not really the whole point, although it does make an interesting observation with, I think, a fair amount of validity.
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 09, 2011, 06:18:33 PM
I think this is a good thing.
Music should always be first and foremost about the fucking music.
"Lifestyle music" or music that appeals to a certain subculture always suffers. Not only that but its given us thousands of shitty screamo garage bands that dont even bother to tune their guitars and just crank up the distortion instead.
And it has given us Wizard Rock. :argh!: :horrormirth: :x
Skimmed it, and I think I generally agree. I feel that hipster is used almost like chav, generally applied to those damned young people and their terrible, unclassy values.
QuoteThis is an age of media saturation and constant meme-bombardment. Leaving aside the complicated relationship consumers now have to products and entertainment (ie it's not as simple as "love" and "hate" anymore), file sharing and digital distribution have expanded our potential choices to the state where there is no such thing as "rare". All music of all types is at the consumer's fingertips, and you don't have to go through cultural initiations to prove your loyalty to any particular genre. But does this mean that a teenager downloading the entire Crass back catalog tomorrow will not feel the same impact of the music as the person who bought the 7" back in the day? Or that the TOOL fan downloading that irresistible Usher song somehow can't really like TOOL?
I bolded the parts I thought were relevant. If what he's saying is correct then I would have been considered a hipster because I like all music - including rap and country. I don't particularly care for the bubble-gum-pop of boy bands or singers like Brittany Spears but I've appreciated some of the stuff in that sub-genre. Hmmm.
QuoteIn effect what we are seeing is a nation of cultural gatekeepers cottoning on to the fact that the fences they erected were pulled down years ago. They use the tools at their disposal, mostly articles in the mainstream media, to decry the younger generations lack of interest in their well established modes of cool. Meanwhile the younger generation are out defining what is cool for themselves, which inevitably will clash with what older writers prescribe. Perhaps it's just a cyclical process - the olds grumble that their yardsticks of cool aren't adopted by the youngs, while the youngs reject the ideas of the olds and create their own cool. The difference here though is that the mainstream commentators have huge access to means of propagating their ideas in the media, and they are hella resistant to letting anyone else take their coveted roles. And even, it seems, promoting the positive sides of youth culture. But the fact remains, they're losing their edge.
Man, this is a problem not just among generations, but between cliques and peer groups and people within the peer groups and everything. We're tearing down localized, conventional cliques and reestablishing them as more specialized and farther-flung clusters of people online.
It isn't jocks versus geeks in high school. It's Hikers Who Like Starbucks and Wear Boxers and Listen To Glenn Beck versus Cyclists Who Like Teavana While Wearing Speedos and Listening To Jon Stewart duking it out on internet.
But yeah. I agree with most of that. Though I think basing whether or not someone is cool on their clothes or music tastes is stupid.
It's all about whether or not they drink Pepsi.
We've had Gay Heavy Metal Disco for a while now (Lords of Acid, My life with the Thrill Kill Kult) I know that's not the word for the genre that those bands fit into, but I think that description fits them pretty well And they've been around since at least the early 90's (that being when I started listening to them)
Thanks for posting this, Nigel. I really appreciate the tone and message of the article. Remember when we were going around calling ourselves hipsters in a non-ironic fashion? This reminds me of that.
I think it would be good to remove the word "hipster" from my language diet and bury it in a shallow grave. If people are listening to music or wearing clothing they don't actually enjoy listening to or wearing just to fit in with a group, there's already a word for that, poseur. In which case it's just sad that they would sacrifice their self-authenticity to fit in.
There /is/ the issue of being fashion blind to the point where your color combinations and other clothing choices are painful. But that's an entirely different issue, and is often related to actual color blindness.
For further reading, reference:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=28658.0
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=26830.0
and
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=24524.0
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Part of the problem is that people using the term seem to believe most pop culture has this fabled "authenticity" that can be subverted to begin with... and as someone who's generally sitting on the outside looking in, I'm pretty comfortable saying it doesn't; when you get down to it, even "alternative" musical scenes (or whatever the term is nowadays) exist primarily to sell you t-shirts and beer, and if you're really successful, someday your music might be used to sell prescription drugs and car insurance.
Quote from: Laughin Jude on April 09, 2011, 07:12:33 PM
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Part of the problem is that people using the term seem to believe most pop culture has this fabled "authenticity" that can be subverted to begin with... and as someone who's generally sitting on the outside looking in, I'm pretty comfortable saying it doesn't; when you get down to it, even "alternative" musical scenes (or whatever the term is nowadays) exist primarily to sell you t-shirts and beer, and if you're really successful, someday your music might be used to sell prescription drugs and car insurance.
It's been discussed at length in the threads posted right before your post.
If you look in them you'll see we've got the common usage of Hipster nailed down pretty well.
Quote from: Laughin Jude on April 09, 2011, 07:12:33 PM
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Part of the problem is that people using the term seem to believe most pop culture has this fabled "authenticity" that can be subverted to begin with... and as someone who's generally sitting on the outside looking in, I'm pretty comfortable saying it doesn't; when you get down to it, even "alternative" musical scenes (or whatever the term is nowadays) exist primarily to sell you t-shirts and beer, and if you're really successful, someday your music might be used to sell prescription drugs and car insurance.
THIS THIS THIS
And what Kai and Sigmatic said.
Basically, at this point the word "hipster" is pretty much useful only for identifying the people who are using it as a pejorative in order to establish their superiority.
Quote from: Nigel on April 09, 2011, 07:49:32 PM
Basically, at this point the word "hipster" is pretty much useful only for identifying the people who are using it as a pejorative in order to establish their superiority.
Bunch of fucking hipsters.
(http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/comics/2010-12-20.jpg)
Quote from: Laughin Jude on April 09, 2011, 07:12:33 PM
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Hipster is a genuine subculture/movement. The problem is that people have adopted it as a sort of slur to describe anyone/anything that they dont like.(Hurr durr X Band is so fucking hipster) So its basically lost all meaning, but trust me hipsters are a very real thing. And I hate them, oh dear lord do I hate them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY
^The mating ritual of the hipsters.
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 09, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on April 09, 2011, 07:12:33 PM
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Hipster is a genuine subculture/movement. The problem is that people have adopted it as a sort of slur to describe anyone/anything that they dont like.(Hurr durr X Band is so fucking hipster) So its basically lost all meaning, but trust me hipsters are a very real thing. And I hate them, oh dear lord do I hate them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY
^The mating ritual of the hipsters.
My reaction to that went something like:
1) Wow, that girl really sucks at using a can opener!
2) Oh hey, I remember phonics!
3) ...Well, at least it's not centipedes (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/File:Centipedes.jpg).
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 09, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on April 09, 2011, 07:12:33 PM
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Hipster is a genuine subculture/movement. The problem is that people have adopted it as a sort of slur to describe anyone/anything that they dont like.(Hurr durr X Band is so fucking hipster) So its basically lost all meaning, but trust me hipsters are a very real thing. And I hate them, oh dear lord do I hate them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY
^The mating ritual of the hipsters.
Hipster is not exactly a subculture/movement. It's basically a placeholder for "progressive, experimental young person". The kids in that video are covered by the hipster umbrella, as are the kids who want to throw Molotov cocktails at them.
Quote from: Nigel on April 10, 2011, 12:46:52 AM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 09, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on April 09, 2011, 07:12:33 PM
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Hipster is a genuine subculture/movement. The problem is that people have adopted it as a sort of slur to describe anyone/anything that they dont like.(Hurr durr X Band is so fucking hipster) So its basically lost all meaning, but trust me hipsters are a very real thing. And I hate them, oh dear lord do I hate them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY
^The mating ritual of the hipsters.
Hipster is not exactly a subculture/movement. It's basically a placeholder for "progressive, experimental young person". The kids in that video are covered by the hipster umbrella, as are the kids who want to throw Molotov cocktails at them.
Throwing them into a woodchipper and using the goo as a glaze?
Quote from: Nigel on April 10, 2011, 12:46:52 AM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 09, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on April 09, 2011, 07:12:33 PM
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Hipster is a genuine subculture/movement. The problem is that people have adopted it as a sort of slur to describe anyone/anything that they dont like.(Hurr durr X Band is so fucking hipster) So its basically lost all meaning, but trust me hipsters are a very real thing. And I hate them, oh dear lord do I hate them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY
^The mating ritual of the hipsters.
Hipster is not exactly a subculture/movement. It's basically a placeholder for "progressive, experimental young person". The kids in that video are covered by the hipster umbrella, as are the kids who want to throw Molotov cocktails at them.
Newsflash: Just because some people misuse the term hipster as an insult doesnt mean that actual hipsters dont exist. And I dont get how you get that the people who want to burn the hipsters like furrys are hipsters themselves.
I base it on my personal laws of trolling. In this case, the correct use of a term is whatever pisses off the most people. As such, a hipster is anybody whose offended at being called a hipster.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on April 10, 2011, 07:47:12 AM
I base it on my personal laws of trolling. In this case, the correct use of a term is whatever pisses off the most people. As such, a hipster is anybody whose offended at being called a hipster.
Accuracy be damned, I'm using this definition. :mittens:
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 09, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on April 09, 2011, 07:12:33 PM
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Hipster is a genuine subculture/movement. The problem is that people have adopted it as a sort of slur to describe anyone/anything that they dont like.(Hurr durr X Band is so fucking hipster) So its basically lost all meaning, but trust me hipsters are a very real thing. And I hate them, oh dear lord do I hate them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY
^The mating ritual of the hipsters.
What. The fuck. Did I just watch?
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 10, 2011, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 10, 2011, 12:46:52 AM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 09, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on April 09, 2011, 07:12:33 PM
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Hipster is a genuine subculture/movement. The problem is that people have adopted it as a sort of slur to describe anyone/anything that they dont like.(Hurr durr X Band is so fucking hipster) So its basically lost all meaning, but trust me hipsters are a very real thing. And I hate them, oh dear lord do I hate them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY
^The mating ritual of the hipsters.
Hipster is not exactly a subculture/movement. It's basically a placeholder for "progressive, experimental young person". The kids in that video are covered by the hipster umbrella, as are the kids who want to throw Molotov cocktails at them.
Newsflash: Just because some people misuse the term hipster as an insult doesnt mean that actual hipsters dont exist. And I dont get how you get that the people who want to burn the hipsters like furrys are hipsters themselves.
Sorry kiddo, "hipster" isn't a new term; it has a long and established history of usage and covers a wide variety of people, including angry anarchist punks who have the spare time and energy to hate liberal-arts students. You're trying to make up a new definition, and hey, if you can convince enough people that you're right, more power to you.
Quote from: Nigel on April 09, 2011, 07:49:32 PM
Basically, at this point the word "hipster" is pretty much useful only for identifying the people who are using it as a pejorative in order to establish their superiority.
There are no hipsters.
There are Superior Mutants, and there are Pinks. All other labels are arbitrary.
Roger rides the correct two wheeled vehicle, straight through this thread! The labels are mainly there so the marketing people can describe a demographic. The fact that most of the cabbages are only too happy to paint a great big target on their back by identifying with these pigeonholes only serves to identify them to me as prey. Tell me you're a goth, tell me you're a hipster, tell me you're an emo or a mod or a fucking new romantic ... go on ... cos all I hear is "mark"
Music is something you listen to, not something you are. Same with any other artform.
Quote from: Nigel on April 10, 2011, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 10, 2011, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 10, 2011, 12:46:52 AM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 09, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on April 09, 2011, 07:12:33 PM
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Hipster is a genuine subculture/movement. The problem is that people have adopted it as a sort of slur to describe anyone/anything that they dont like.(Hurr durr X Band is so fucking hipster) So its basically lost all meaning, but trust me hipsters are a very real thing. And I hate them, oh dear lord do I hate them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY
^The mating ritual of the hipsters.
Hipster is not exactly a subculture/movement. It's basically a placeholder for "progressive, experimental young person". The kids in that video are covered by the hipster umbrella, as are the kids who want to throw Molotov cocktails at them.
Newsflash: Just because some people misuse the term hipster as an insult doesnt mean that actual hipsters dont exist. And I dont get how you get that the people who want to burn the hipsters like furrys are hipsters themselves.
Sorry kiddo, "hipster" isn't a new term; it has a long and established history of usage and covers a wide variety of people, including angry anarchist punks who have the spare time and energy to hate liberal-arts students. You're trying to make up a new definition, and hey, if you can convince enough people that you're right, more power to you.
Fine. Bomb throwing Anarchists can be hipsters and the group of people I hate with an ungodly passion can be Mipsters.
FUCKING MIPSTERS.
I agree with Glittersnatch. No amount of "LOL LETS SAY THAT EVERYONE IS A HIPSTER" is going to change the fact that there is a specific subculture of people whom I generally hate on sight with a rabid intensity and who I refer to as hipsters.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on April 10, 2011, 07:05:52 PM
I agree with Glittersnatch. No amount of "LOL LETS SAY THAT EVERYONE IS A _______" is going to change the fact that there is a specific subculture of people whom I generally hate on sight with a rabid intensity and who I refer to as fuckheads.
Why limit yourself? :lulz:
There are all kinds of fuckheads, I just have a specific sub-type of fuckhead categorized as "hipster" in my filing system. :lulz:
There is this old tennis pro who can predict when someone is about to double fault with around 90% accuracy just by watching them. But he has no idea how he does it.
Our brains are sophisticated enough to be able to quickly identify hipsters by observing how they present themselves, BUT also not be able to put that categorization into words.
That doesn't mean that the category is meaningless. It's just put into the wrong context. Put it back into the social context and it becomes a useful stereotype that helps to rapidly predict a wide variety of behaviors. Just because we can't come to a consensus about what behaviors "hipster" predicts doesn't mean that it isn't a fairly accurate intuition about someone. The word doesn't operate in this artificial vacuum of conscious intellectual discussion. Our idea of "hipster" is being continually combined and weighed against tons of other information outside of our conscious awareness when we are actually interacting with people.
To try to evaluate it with written discussion seems like a way to stack the deck in favor of the position that "hipster" refers to a generic insult rather than a functional stereotype. Really, you could do this with a lot of stereotypes and of course they'd all fall apart at some point because they're generalizations used intuitively, probably across a continuum. People often have the same trouble defining "porn" yet it's still accurate enough to be a widely used term.
Because the word "hipster" functions on a level of implicit knowledge (just like other stereotypes) it may be mostly inaccessible to our conscious awareness. That doesn't mean it is nonsense, it just belongs to the murky realm of tacit understanding and is damn near impossible to dredge up and force into words.
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 10, 2011, 05:59:17 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 10, 2011, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 10, 2011, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 10, 2011, 12:46:52 AM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on April 09, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
Quote from: Laughin Jude on April 09, 2011, 07:12:33 PM
I read that article and the Wikipedia article and I'm still not sure what a hipster is; as far as I can tell it's just a pejorative term for "young person who doesn't fit into our slots," right? Or maybe "young person who fits into a slot I don't approve of." It's hard to say.
Hipster is a genuine subculture/movement. The problem is that people have adopted it as a sort of slur to describe anyone/anything that they dont like.(Hurr durr X Band is so fucking hipster) So its basically lost all meaning, but trust me hipsters are a very real thing. And I hate them, oh dear lord do I hate them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY
^The mating ritual of the hipsters.
Hipster is not exactly a subculture/movement. It's basically a placeholder for "progressive, experimental young person". The kids in that video are covered by the hipster umbrella, as are the kids who want to throw Molotov cocktails at them.
Newsflash: Just because some people misuse the term hipster as an insult doesnt mean that actual hipsters dont exist. And I dont get how you get that the people who want to burn the hipsters like furrys are hipsters themselves.
Sorry kiddo, "hipster" isn't a new term; it has a long and established history of usage and covers a wide variety of people, including angry anarchist punks who have the spare time and energy to hate liberal-arts students. You're trying to make up a new definition, and hey, if you can convince enough people that you're right, more power to you.
Fine. Bomb throwing Anarchists can be hipsters and the group of people I hate with an ungodly passion can be Mipsters.
FUCKING MIPSTERS.
I'd like to refer you to an actual photograph of ACTUAL ANARCHISTS. You can bet your ass that EVERY SINGLE ONE of these guys "hates hipsters".
QuoteThe Oregonian's coverage of yesterday's Red & Black anarchist press conference includes this fantastic photo that can really be nothing but a publicity shot for Portland's newest hit indie-rockers.
(http://www.portlandmercury.com/images/blogimages/2010/06/08/thumb-1276018401-namethisband.jpg)
Bill Haley and the Autistics?
Quote from: Nigel on April 11, 2011, 02:00:53 AM
I'd like to refer you to an actual photograph of ACTUAL ANARCHISTS. You can bet your ass that EVERY SINGLE ONE of these guys "hates hipsters".
QuoteThe Oregonian's coverage of yesterday's Red & Black anarchist press conference includes this fantastic photo that can really be nothing but a publicity shot for Portland's newest hit indie-rockers.
(http://www.portlandmercury.com/images/blogimages/2010/06/08/thumb-1276018401-namethisband.jpg)
Bah, Anarchy is a pretty hipster philosophy anyways.
"Government is too mainstream."
Doesnt change my point.
Your point is dull.
Quote from: Nigel on April 11, 2011, 02:50:50 AM
Your point is dull.
A dull needle still does the job.