I have been thinking about the difference in men who claim to be shy, between shyness and fear of women, which is what some men who claim to be "shy" actually exhibit. Since I know many men who are legitimately shy but are not specifically afraid of women, I think these are two separate categories. Gynophobia combined with a sense of entitlement often seems to result in a misonynistic rhetoric, in which the gynophobic man feels oppressed by "female sexual privilege", yet feels both entitled to and deprived of sexual attention from attractive women. This seems to me to be a completely different pathology from actual shyness, which follows a socially differentiated path rather than a sexually differentiated path.
More on this later when I'm less tired. Please add your thoughts.
I love women and their woman bits.
I am shy.
I am also tired with a brain turning into mush due to a woman.
I think you might be on to something with that.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 07, 2011, 07:31:55 AM
I love women and their woman bits.
I am shy.
I am also tired with a brain turning into mush due to a woman.
I think you might be on to something with that.
I've been talking with you for what, close to a year? And, like my other shy friends, have never seen you exhibit either gynophobia nor misogyny.
I really think these are separate categories that need to be explored and recognized.
I also think that there are androphobic women, who claim shyness but actually exhibit fear of men, often leading to hatred and blame of men in the form of misandry. Again, I think this is a different issue from "shyness", which is a type of social phobia that can lead to isolation and misanthropy.
What's a fear of people in general?
I agree with you, by the way. Isolation is pretty miserable.
I consider myself both gynophilic (;)) since I tend to relate better to female friends than male friends, and indiscriminately shy if sober. I think that any other person on this board who was in Boston last June can attest to my general quietness, and LMNO in particular has seen the various shades of shyness until I got comfortable around him and his bandmates. I spent a fair amount of time with Pope Tom, but that was due to determination to hang out with another Discordian for more than 45 minutes after everyone went back to Providence.
I think I see what you're saying though.
As far as the ladies go, I never considered myself any more or less attractive than anyone else on average, and therefore, not particularly entitled/disgruntled, either to ladies in general or specific ones in particular. It's always been either an ok, we hit it off, or, well, this is kinda one-sided and I hope I snap out of that soon. But I've definitely run into a couple of guys where... something was off. And maybe with some of them, it was that, what you just hit upon. It's hard to tell sometimes, because when someone is really off, you automatically kinda shut them out. Maybe it's a feedback loop type of thing. I don't know. I try not to associate with creepy misogynistic dudes.
Freeky- anthropophobia?
Yes. According to google, anyway.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 07:37:24 AM
I also think that there are androphobic women, who claim shyness but actually exhibit fear of men, often leading to hatred and blame of men in the form of misandry. Again, I think this is a different issue from "shyness", which is a type of social phobia that can lead to isolation and misanthropy.
That was me for several years. Shy in general, but I would have happily gut a male who got within my sphere of influence, if I hadn't been so terrified. Luckily, it passed.
Is it possible to be gynophobic without being misogynistic? I am generally terrified of everyone, but I find it especially difficult to talk to the opposite sex. I don't hate anyone for this, because I realize that it's probably my fault, but I still can't help being afraid of rejection. Then again, among the few women that I interact with on a regular basis I have no problems, so I think the problem may just be that I have trouble interacting with people that I haven't already gotten to know, and that my interests are simply less common to women than men in this city (though I have yet to find anyone of either sex who I can have a conversation about music with).
I think my problem is just that I'm a gigantic hipster nerd.
Or maybe I'm rationalizing away an ugly aspect of my psyche because it clashes with everything I believe about gender equality.
Either way, I should get out more.
Yes, it's totally possible to be gynophobic without being misogynistic... the danger comes into play when people start trying to rationalize away their fear as being a result of society's unfairness rather than as a personal issue they need to work on. Rationalizations about the "sexual economy" lead some fearful men to feel put-upon and sorry for themselves.
One of the ugliest forms of this I've seen is when an unattractive man, sometimes overweight or aging, blames the "sexual economy" on the fact that he doesn't have a mate, rather than looking to himself. (Trust me, women do this too, just less often.) He wants the beautiful, slim 24-year-olds he sees around him, and feels constantly rejected by them, so he makes up a story in which he is the victim for not being able to have them. He tells himself, "Women have all the power in the sexual economy; men have to approach many women just to get one, while women are approached by many men and get to pick and choose". That's where misogyny starts; viewing women, and sex, as a commodity.
It's perfectly true that attractive young women are constantly being approached by men., and that commodification is one reason why. It makes it very difficult to sort out which men are appropriate matches who are genuinely interested, and which men are simply taking a scattergun approach and hitting on everyone in the hope of getting a bite. The men who hit on everyone regardless of their actual interest level (or without authentically considering their actual interest level) really muddy the waters for everyone else.
Attractive young men are also frequently approached by women, but the women who approach them are more likely to be in the ball park of an appropriate match in terms of physical beauty and age. For the most part, fat 50-year-old women just don't hit on hot 25-year-old men. I still haven't figured out why fat 50-year-old men hit on hot 25-year-old women, but I think it has to do with ideas about entitlement and the sexual economy.
In my observation (I've been very interested in shy men for probably about eight to ten years) the best thing you could do to get over your fear of approaching women is to go to bars and parties, and make eye contact and smile.
And just talk to them. Just say hi, or make a comment on the beer or the decor or someone's sweater. Don't hit on them, just talk. Hitting on women is a horrible way to meet women, anyway. Also, staring. No. Never stare. This might sound obvious but I had a friend who was a virgin at 38, and I actually had to tell him that staring at people creeps them the fuck out. Most shy people don't have that problem though; they have the opposite problem.
Here's the thing. You WILL experience rejection. Some women will assume you're hitting on them and will give you the brush off. But you'll also find that very often, after you've made eye contact and smiled (also a good way to make friends with same-sex people) at someone who is an appropriate match for you, in your ball-park in terms of age and beauty and culture (perhaps another terminally awkward hipster) they'll come and talk to you.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 04:04:01 PM
Yes, it's totally possible to be gynophobic without being misogynistic... the danger comes into play when people start trying to rationalize away their fear as being a result of society's unfairness rather than as a personal issue they need to work on. Rationalizations about the "sexual economy" lead some fearful men to feel put-upon and sorry for themselves.
One of the ugliest forms of this I've seen is when an unattractive man, sometimes overweight or aging, blames the "sexual economy" on the fact that he doesn't have a mate, rather than looking to himself. (Trust me, women do this too, just less often.) He wants the beautiful, slim 24-year-olds he sees around him, and feels constantly rejected by them, so he makes up a story in which he is the victim for not being able to have them. He tells himself, "Women have all the power in the sexual economy; men have to approach many women just to get one, while women are approached by many men and get to pick and choose". That's where misogyny starts; viewing women, and sex, as a commodity.
It's perfectly true that attractive young women are constantly being approached by men., and that commodification is one reason why. It makes it very difficult to sort out which men are appropriate matches who are genuinely interested, and which men are simply taking a scattergun approach and hitting on everyone in the hope of getting a bite. The men who hit on everyone regardless of their actual interest level (or without authentically considering their actual interest level) really muddy the waters for everyone else.
Attractive young men are also frequently approached by women, but the women who approach them are more likely to be in the ball park of an appropriate match in terms of physical beauty and age. For the most part, fat 50-year-old women just don't hit on hot 25-year-old men. I still haven't figured out why fat 50-year-old men hit on hot 25-year-old women, but I think it has to do with ideas about entitlement and the sexual economy.
Sounds to me like ego's a major factor. It seems like a lot of men just can't handle the idea that they aren't appealing.
In any case, I hope to purge my psyche of all traces of gynophobia. It's a disgusting tendency. I think my problem is that even though I was raised with extremely feminist values, somewhere along the line I started confusing respect with fear. Which is no healthier than misogyny, I think.
Then again, I think whether I am in fact gynophobic is debatable. I think I'm afraid of men just as much as I'm afraid of women. [emo]Most of the time, when I'm out in public, I get the impression that everyone is watching me and judging me, and naturally it makes me completely miserable. The only reason I can even handle it without having nervous breakdowns on a daily basis is that I keep my head down and look at my feet. Which, of course, only leads to more rejection when I do try to interact with people. I believe myself to be stupid, and ugly, and repulsive, and disgusting, and creepy, and insane, and subhuman, and my interactions with these... giants only reinforces that. Everywhere I look, I meet the disapproving gaze of gods, so the only place to look is down.
And then I come to PD to complain about the monkeys. How hypocritical is that? If they're monkeys, I'm a louse.[/emo]
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 04:14:13 PM
In my observation (I've been very interested in shy men for probably about eight to ten years) the best thing you could do to get over your fear of approaching women is to go to bars and parties, and make eye contact and smile.
And just talk to them. Just say hi, or make a comment on the beer or the decor or someone's sweater. Don't hit on them, just talk. Hitting on women is a horrible way to meet women, anyway. Also, staring. No. Never stare. This might sound obvious but I had a friend who was a virgin at 38, and I actually had to tell him that staring at people creeps them the fuck out. Most shy people don't have that problem though; they have the opposite problem.
Here's the thing. You WILL experience rejection. Some women will assume you're hitting on them and will give you the brush off. But you'll also find that very often, after you've made eye contact and smiled (also a good way to make friends with same-sex people) at someone who is an appropriate match for you, in your ball-park in terms of age and beauty and culture (perhaps another terminally awkward hipster) they'll come and talk to you.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I don't even know how to find out about parties. The very concept of a "party" is alien to me.
ETA: That "HAHAHAHAHA" bit wasn't to be rude or throw your advice back in your face or anything, by the way. That was horrormirth. I have finally realized exactly how pathetic I am. Thank you. That's sincere, too. I need to know the truth if I ever want to change anything.
Nigel nailed it. :)
I think there's a flipside, though, and I see a lot of it in my work (psychic line - ducks blows)...a lot of women view men, or rather marriage, as a commodity. They look for boyfriends like they're interviewing prospective employees (he has to make X-amount of money and be tall and blah blah) and they seem to have some kind of time frame for marriage, they'll dump a guy who doesn't live up to it because he "won't commit". All very businesslike but they consider it "love".
It seems to me that if you care enough about somebody that you'd even consider being tied to them for any length of time, you'd work out whatever was mutually agreeable and that would involve compromise...probably just live together or see each other and if you don't have a piece of paper, so what?
I could see all this in the 19th century or something when the alternative to hitting the husband lottery was indentured servitude as a governess or something like that, but it doesn't seem very thought out these days... :?
Quote from: Unqualified on May 07, 2011, 04:27:47 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 04:04:01 PM
Yes, it's totally possible to be gynophobic without being misogynistic... the danger comes into play when people start trying to rationalize away their fear as being a result of society's unfairness rather than as a personal issue they need to work on. Rationalizations about the "sexual economy" lead some fearful men to feel put-upon and sorry for themselves.
One of the ugliest forms of this I've seen is when an unattractive man, sometimes overweight or aging, blames the "sexual economy" on the fact that he doesn't have a mate, rather than looking to himself. (Trust me, women do this too, just less often.) He wants the beautiful, slim 24-year-olds he sees around him, and feels constantly rejected by them, so he makes up a story in which he is the victim for not being able to have them. He tells himself, "Women have all the power in the sexual economy; men have to approach many women just to get one, while women are approached by many men and get to pick and choose". That's where misogyny starts; viewing women, and sex, as a commodity.
It's perfectly true that attractive young women are constantly being approached by men., and that commodification is one reason why. It makes it very difficult to sort out which men are appropriate matches who are genuinely interested, and which men are simply taking a scattergun approach and hitting on everyone in the hope of getting a bite. The men who hit on everyone regardless of their actual interest level (or without authentically considering their actual interest level) really muddy the waters for everyone else.
Attractive young men are also frequently approached by women, but the women who approach them are more likely to be in the ball park of an appropriate match in terms of physical beauty and age. For the most part, fat 50-year-old women just don't hit on hot 25-year-old men. I still haven't figured out why fat 50-year-old men hit on hot 25-year-old women, but I think it has to do with ideas about entitlement and the sexual economy.
Sounds to me like ego's a major factor. It seems like a lot of men just can't handle the idea that they aren't appealing.
In any case, I hope to purge my psyche of all traces of gynophobia. It's a disgusting tendency. I think my problem is that even though I was raised with extremely feminist values, somewhere along the line I started confusing respect with fear. Which is no healthier than misogyny, I think.
Then again, I think whether I am in fact gynophobic is debatable. I think I'm afraid of men just as much as I'm afraid of women. [emo]Most of the time, when I'm out in public, I get the impression that everyone is watching me and judging me, and naturally it makes me completely miserable. The only reason I can even handle it without having nervous breakdowns on a daily basis is that I keep my head down and look at my feet. Which, of course, only leads to more rejection when I do try to interact with people. I believe myself to be stupid, and ugly, and repulsive, and disgusting, and creepy, and insane, and subhuman, and my interactions with these... giants only reinforces that. Everywhere I look, I meet the disapproving gaze of gods, so the only place to look is down.
And then I come to PD to complain about the monkeys. How hypocritical is that? If they're monkeys, I'm a louse.[/emo]
It's actually not that they're unappealing. They are probably appealing (physically, if not psychologically) to women who are approximately in the same ball park of age and looks. But that's not good enough for them. See the hypocrisy?
Everyone else is exactly as self-absorbed as you are. They're not thinking about you, except inasmuch as they're thinking about you watching them and judging them.
Trust me.
Quote from: Unqualified on May 07, 2011, 04:28:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 04:14:13 PM
In my observation (I've been very interested in shy men for probably about eight to ten years) the best thing you could do to get over your fear of approaching women is to go to bars and parties, and make eye contact and smile.
And just talk to them. Just say hi, or make a comment on the beer or the decor or someone's sweater. Don't hit on them, just talk. Hitting on women is a horrible way to meet women, anyway. Also, staring. No. Never stare. This might sound obvious but I had a friend who was a virgin at 38, and I actually had to tell him that staring at people creeps them the fuck out. Most shy people don't have that problem though; they have the opposite problem.
Here's the thing. You WILL experience rejection. Some women will assume you're hitting on them and will give you the brush off. But you'll also find that very often, after you've made eye contact and smiled (also a good way to make friends with same-sex people) at someone who is an appropriate match for you, in your ball-park in terms of age and beauty and culture (perhaps another terminally awkward hipster) they'll come and talk to you.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I don't even know how to find out about parties. The very concept of a "party" is alien to me.
ETA: That "HAHAHAHAHA" bit wasn't to be rude or throw your advice back in your face or anything, by the way. That was horrormirth. I have finally realized exactly how pathetic I am. Thank you. That's sincere, too. I need to know the truth if I ever want to change anything.
Sounds like you need friends! The best way to make friends is to go outside of your house and do stuff. Then, while you're doing stuff (hiking groups, gaming groups... whatever your interests are. Look at meetup.com) make eye contact and smile at people. Then, talk to them when they say hi.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 05:34:00 PM
Nigel nailed it. :)
I think there's a flipside, though, and I see a lot of it in my work (psychic line - ducks blows)...a lot of women view men, or rather marriage, as a commodity. They look for boyfriends like they're interviewing prospective employees (he has to make X-amount of money and be tall and blah blah) and they seem to have some kind of time frame for marriage, they'll dump a guy who doesn't live up to it because he "won't commit". All very businesslike but they consider it "love".
It seems to me that if you care enough about somebody that you'd even consider being tied to them for any length of time, you'd work out whatever was mutually agreeable and that would involve compromise...probably just live together or see each other and if you don't have a piece of paper, so what?
I could see all this in the 19th century or something when the alternative to hitting the husband lottery was indentured servitude as a governess or something like that, but it doesn't seem very thought out these days... :?
That absolutely exists, and it's not really a "flipside". It's just another aspect of our unhealthy culture.
However, SOME of those behaviors are not unhealthy; they're reflective of good self-esteem, especially in a young woman who plans to have children. If I was looking for a life partner, and I was with someone who was still waffling about what they want after six months or a year, if I had good self-esteem I would recognize that we were not a good match, and stop wasting both of our time with the relationship. People with low self-esteem continue in poorly-suited relationships, hoping things will change, because they don't believe they can find a better match.
Treating relationships like a shopping-list of must-haves is not realistic. ON THE OTHER HAND, having a wish list of what you think you are good enough for is healthy and reflective of high self-value. The higher genuine self-value you have (as opposed to vanity or a prince/princess complex) the more attractive you are as a mate. An attractive mate is more likely to find a good match, in the form of another person in their age range who is similarly attractive. People with low self-esteem find each other and stay together even if they aren't a good match outside of both having low self-esteem.
Why should a man who is looking to have children stay with a woman who "isn't sure if" she wants to get married or have kids after a year of being together? Why shouldn't he realize, hey, this situation means we are probably not well-matched, I will go looking for a woman whose goals are similar to mine?
Also, Unqualified, YOU NEED THERAPY. Your horrible self-esteem is what's blocking you from having a happy fulfilling social life.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:04:14 PMEveryone else is exactly as self-absorbed as you are. They're not thinking about you, except inasmuch as they're thinking about you watching them and judging them.
Trust me.
Exactly--I usually assume that people are way too busy with mostly themselves, or just have better things to worry about than to be judging me.
It's one of the reasons why I like wearing bright orange clothes, or a shiny white jacket. But even then, people just see the clothes :) Example, when I go running, I wear bright red jogging pance and a red shirt* but even then, as long as I'm just going through the motions of a typical jogger, nobody pays even the slightest bit of attention.
And if they do pay attention, they probably forget me in a second.
And even if they do remember me (I am after all, shockingly handsome, so it could happen) they're going to keep it to themselves, unless they have something positively nice to say.
And if they don't, fuck them, what a bunch of pricks, going around judging me and making shitty remarks about my awesome jogging suit.
Seriously.
(read on for amazing and incredible details about my jogging clothing, and also dogs:
* mostly because I want car traffic to see me from a distance. it also makes you go faster, due to the redshift effect. true fact. and I read some research about sports teams in red clothes and it having some sort of psychologically intimidating effect, making people more likely to get the fuck out of my way, which is always good if you're running around. except for dogs, because they are colour blind. however, I asked my girlfriend, who's seen like three full seasons of the dog whisperer and she said that I shouldn't look at the dog at all, but just at its owner, and to be calm and assertive, and so far it seems to work.
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 07, 2011, 06:27:45 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:04:14 PMEveryone else is exactly as self-absorbed as you are. They're not thinking about you, except inasmuch as they're thinking about you watching them and judging them.
Trust me.
Exactly--I usually assume that people are way too busy with mostly themselves, or just have better things to worry about than to be judging me.
It's one of the reasons why I like wearing bright orange clothes, or a shiny white jacket. But even then, people just see the clothes :) Example, when I go running, I wear bright red jogging pance and a red shirt* but even then, as long as I'm just going through the motions of a typical jogger, nobody pays even the slightest bit of attention.
And if they do pay attention, they probably forget me in a second.
And even if they do remember me (I am after all, shockingly handsome, so it could happen) they're going to keep it to themselves, unless they have something positively nice to say.
And if they don't, fuck them, what a bunch of pricks, going around judging me and making shitty remarks about my awesome jogging suit.
Seriously.
(read on for amazing and incredible details about my jogging clothing, and also dogs:
* mostly because I want car traffic to see me from a distance. it also makes you go faster, due to the redshift effect. true fact. and I read some research about sports teams in red clothes and it having some sort of psychologically intimidating effect, making people more likely to get the fuck out of my way, which is always good if you're running around. except for dogs, because they are colour blind. however, I asked my girlfriend, who's seen like three full seasons of the dog whisperer and she said that I shouldn't look at the dog at all, but just at its owner, and to be calm and assertive, and so far it seems to work.
For some reason this post has already made my day.
Mostly because of the "RED ONES GOES FASTER!!!!!"
1. Unqualified. We need to bump the "perfectly ordinary thoughts" thread. You're not alone. Some just cover it up better than others.
2. Mrs LMNO brought up the point that while externalizing/projecting the problem ducks the issue, internalizing it too much leads to body dysmorphia. Which seems to be the other side of the coin, in the "acting counter to the mainstream is still being part of the mainstream" trope.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 05:34:00 PM
Nigel nailed it. :)
I think there's a flipside, though, and I see a lot of it in my work (psychic line - ducks blows)...a lot of women view men, or rather marriage, as a commodity. They look for boyfriends like they're interviewing prospective employees (he has to make X-amount of money and be tall and blah blah) and they seem to have some kind of time frame for marriage, they'll dump a guy who doesn't live up to it because he "won't commit". All very businesslike but they consider it "love".
It seems to me that if you care enough about somebody that you'd even consider being tied to them for any length of time, you'd work out whatever was mutually agreeable and that would involve compromise...probably just live together or see each other and if you don't have a piece of paper, so what?
I could see all this in the 19th century or something when the alternative to hitting the husband lottery wahttp://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=1043756;topic=29115.0;num_replies=13;sesc=9f10863cc36962420be928aa5099117ds indentured servitude as a governess or something like that, but it doesn't seem very thought out these days... :?
I had a coworker like that. It was the weirdest fucking thing. It was totally alien to my way of thinking. Bit of background info: she was 27 ish, from Michigan, and I believe, Methodist, but I could be wrong about that.
She and another coworker were dating when they started working there. I guess she kinda pressured him into proposing. They were engaged for a while and she kept talking about the time frame for having a baby, which meant getting to work on it immediately. Surprise of surprises, he called off the wedding. She didn't seem sad so much as angry.
Anyway, she eventually started talking about this other guy at her church and she was talking about him like she was engaged to him. Like, she was definitely going to marry him, and she was going to have his babies. Turns out they weren't even dating yet. She was scoping him out as a sperm donor. Well, anyway she did start dating him, they did get married and they have a kid. We met the husband to be a couple of times. He looked like a deer caught in headlights. It was the weirdest thing to watch. Apparently she had been engaged before the broken off engagement too.
As far as the old dudes go- Men of all ages want to have sex with attractive women between the ages of 18 and 24. This is a constant whether your 12 or in the nursing home. The problem comes in when they realistically can't accept that they're old/fat/bald/weird looking/creepy. If I find myself single and 40, and can't snag other 40 somethings, I'm going to have a look at my self and see what I'm doing wrong, since I'm the common factor in my failure to find someone to be with. I don't know why a middle aged guy would want to date someone who is just fresh out of college anyway. They're going to be in way different places in their lives and won't look at the world in the same way.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:16:25 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 05:34:00 PM
Nigel nailed it. :)
I think there's a flipside, though, and I see a lot of it in my work (psychic line - ducks blows)...a lot of women view men, or rather marriage, as a commodity. They look for boyfriends like they're interviewing prospective employees (he has to make X-amount of money and be tall and blah blah) and they seem to have some kind of time frame for marriage, they'll dump a guy who doesn't live up to it because he "won't commit". All very businesslike but they consider it "love".
It seems to me that if you care enough about somebody that you'd even consider being tied to them for any length of time, you'd work out whatever was mutually agreeable and that would involve compromise...probably just live together or see each other and if you don't have a piece of paper, so what?
I could see all this in the 19th century or something when the alternative to hitting the husband lottery was indentured servitude as a governess or something like that, but it doesn't seem very thought out these days... :?
That absolutely exists, and it's not really a "flipside". It's just another aspect of our unhealthy culture.
However, SOME of those behaviors are not unhealthy; they're reflective of good self-esteem, especially in a young woman who plans to have children. If I was looking for a life partner, and I was with someone who was still waffling about what they want after six months or a year, if I had good self-esteem I would recognize that we were not a good match, and stop wasting both of our time with the relationship. People with low self-esteem continue in poorly-suited relationships, hoping things will change, because they don't believe they can find a better match.
Treating relationships like a shopping-list of must-haves is not realistic. ON THE OTHER HAND, having a wish list of what you think you are good enough for is healthy and reflective of high self-value. The higher genuine self-value you have (as opposed to vanity or a prince/princess complex) the more attractive you are as a mate. An attractive mate is more likely to find a good match, in the form of another person in their age range who is similarly attractive. People with low self-esteem find each other and stay together even if they aren't a good match outside of both having low self-esteem.
Why should a man who is looking to have children stay with a woman who "isn't sure if" she wants to get married or have kids after a year of being together? Why shouldn't he realize, hey, this situation means we are probably not well-matched, I will go looking for a woman whose goals are similar to mine?
THis is the primary reason why I broke up with my 'fiance' after dating her for 2 years. She hadn't managed to get divorced during those 2 years or the 2-3 years before we met. She might have honestly wanted to marry me and have kids, but fuck all if I was going to continue to fucking wait.
I see what you're saying, Nigel...a person with healthy self-esteem obviously isn't going to put up with certain things, like abuse, chronic alcoholism, chronially out-of-work guys. And there's nothing inherently wrong with saying "I want a family at some point and I'm going to make that a priority". I just find it odd that these people throw the L word around so much. Didn't TGRR once define it as "the state or condition of caring about somebody more than you care about yourself"? Not out of low self-esteem, any more than you put your kids first out of low self-esteem. It's just the way it is. You don't grant it to somebody who's going to turn you into a human speed bump, there has to be some trust involved, but it involves accepting a person exactly the way they are without trying to force-fit them to some anachronistic relationship mold.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 07, 2011, 06:31:28 PM2. Mrs LMNO brought up the point that while externalizing/projecting the problem ducks the issue, internalizing it too much leads to body dysmorphia. Which seems to be the other side of the coin, in the "acting counter to the mainstream is still being part of the mainstream" trope.
:?
I have re-read this five times now and I still can't figure out what it means. Halp?
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 07, 2011, 06:41:41 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 07, 2011, 06:31:28 PM2. Mrs LMNO brought up the point that while externalizing/projecting the problem ducks the issue, internalizing it too much leads to body dysmorphia. Which seems to be the other side of the coin, in the "acting counter to the mainstream is still being part of the mainstream" trope.
:?
I have re-read this five times now and I still can't figure out what it means. Halp?
Internalizing it might lead to eating disorders?nevermind WIKI TO THE RESCUE!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder
Thinking everything is because you are ugly.
I give up.
It is totally normal and natural for both men and women to want to have sex with beautiful people in their prime of life. But yes, as you've said, it only becomes a problem when the, say, 45-year-old slightly overweight, somewhat plain woman ONLY approaches 26-year-old hot hard-bodied men for dating and sex, and is then bitter and angry because "men don't want her", and then blames her loneliness on something external, rather than going, "shit, I'm going to be as awesome a person as I can be and see if I can find an awesome 45-year-old guy who might not be much to look at, but is a blast to be with and makes me feel good."
Yanno? I'm pretty hot for 40. I'm not going to find a gorgeous 30-year-old mate to spend the rest of my life with... that's unrealistic, but more to the point, it's unappealing. I want someone who is my peer, someone I can relate to, so I'm going to look for a guy who kind of lives my lifestyle, who is also pretty hot for 40. It's not that it's "unfair" that I won't give fat suburban 40-somethings a chance, it's that they are ALREADY NOT A GOOD MATCH. If I have any kind of self-esteem, there is no reason at all for me to even consider it.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 07, 2011, 06:36:18 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:16:25 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 05:34:00 PM
Nigel nailed it. :)
I think there's a flipside, though, and I see a lot of it in my work (psychic line - ducks blows)...a lot of women view men, or rather marriage, as a commodity. They look for boyfriends like they're interviewing prospective employees (he has to make X-amount of money and be tall and blah blah) and they seem to have some kind of time frame for marriage, they'll dump a guy who doesn't live up to it because he "won't commit". All very businesslike but they consider it "love".
It seems to me that if you care enough about somebody that you'd even consider being tied to them for any length of time, you'd work out whatever was mutually agreeable and that would involve compromise...probably just live together or see each other and if you don't have a piece of paper, so what?
I could see all this in the 19th century or something when the alternative to hitting the husband lottery was indentured servitude as a governess or something like that, but it doesn't seem very thought out these days... :?
That absolutely exists, and it's not really a "flipside". It's just another aspect of our unhealthy culture.
However, SOME of those behaviors are not unhealthy; they're reflective of good self-esteem, especially in a young woman who plans to have children. If I was looking for a life partner, and I was with someone who was still waffling about what they want after six months or a year, if I had good self-esteem I would recognize that we were not a good match, and stop wasting both of our time with the relationship. People with low self-esteem continue in poorly-suited relationships, hoping things will change, because they don't believe they can find a better match.
Treating relationships like a shopping-list of must-haves is not realistic. ON THE OTHER HAND, having a wish list of what you think you are good enough for is healthy and reflective of high self-value. The higher genuine self-value you have (as opposed to vanity or a prince/princess complex) the more attractive you are as a mate. An attractive mate is more likely to find a good match, in the form of another person in their age range who is similarly attractive. People with low self-esteem find each other and stay together even if they aren't a good match outside of both having low self-esteem.
Why should a man who is looking to have children stay with a woman who "isn't sure if" she wants to get married or have kids after a year of being together? Why shouldn't he realize, hey, this situation means we are probably not well-matched, I will go looking for a woman whose goals are similar to mine?
THis is the primary reason why I broke up with my 'fiance' after dating her for 2 years. She hadn't managed to get divorced during those 2 years or the 2-3 years before we met. She might have honestly wanted to marry me and have kids, but fuck all if I was going to continue to fucking wait.
Yep.
There's no good reason, if you value yourself, your life, and your time, to wait around for someone who isn't SHOWING you that they are on the same page, through their actions. Even if you love them.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 06:38:55 PM
I see what you're saying, Nigel...a person with healthy self-esteem obviously isn't going to put up with certain things, like abuse, chronic alcoholism, chronially out-of-work guys. And there's nothing inherently wrong with saying "I want a family at some point and I'm going to make that a priority". I just find it odd that these people throw the L word around so much. Didn't TGRR once define it as "the state or condition of caring about somebody more than you care about yourself"? Not out of low self-esteem, any more than you put your kids first out of low self-esteem. It's just the way it is. You don't grant it to somebody who's going to turn you into a human speed bump, there has to be some trust involved, but it involves accepting a person exactly the way they are without trying to force-fit them to some anachronistic relationship mold.
A person with healthy self-esteem won't put up with life with someone who is fundamentally incompatible with them, either. Even if they love them. "Falling in love" is a chemical state. Making a life commitment to love is something you should do not because you "fall in love" (because that can happen over and over and over again for as long as you're alive) but because you know you have found a good match for your love. A LOT of people stay together miserably because they're "in love" when they would be happier if they moved on and found a COMPATIBLE partner to fall in love with.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 06:38:55 PM
I see what you're saying, Nigel...a person with healthy self-esteem obviously isn't going to put up with certain things, like abuse, chronic alcoholism, chronially out-of-work guys. And there's nothing inherently wrong with saying "I want a family at some point and I'm going to make that a priority". I just find it odd that these people throw the L word around so much. Didn't TGRR once define it as "the state or condition of caring about somebody more than you care about yourself"? Not out of low self-esteem, any more than you put your kids first out of low self-esteem. It's just the way it is. You don't grant it to somebody who's going to turn you into a human speed bump, there has to be some trust involved, but it involves accepting a person exactly the way they are without trying to force-fit them to some anachronistic relationship mold.
A person with healthy self-esteem won't put up with life with someone who is fundamentally incompatible with them, either. Even if they love them. "Falling in love" is a chemical state. Making a life commitment to love is something you should do not because you "fall in love" (because that can happen over and over and over again for as long as you're alive) but because you know you have found a good match for your love. A LOT of people stay together miserably because they're "in love" when they would be happier if they moved on and found a COMPATIBLE partner to fall in love with.
TROOF
That first part is just chemicals. Chemicals lose potency. Which is probably also why there are serial monogamists. They are chasing a new high.
Love is a drug.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 07, 2011, 06:57:13 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 06:38:55 PM
I see what you're saying, Nigel...a person with healthy self-esteem obviously isn't going to put up with certain things, like abuse, chronic alcoholism, chronially out-of-work guys. And there's nothing inherently wrong with saying "I want a family at some point and I'm going to make that a priority". I just find it odd that these people throw the L word around so much. Didn't TGRR once define it as "the state or condition of caring about somebody more than you care about yourself"? Not out of low self-esteem, any more than you put your kids first out of low self-esteem. It's just the way it is. You don't grant it to somebody who's going to turn you into a human speed bump, there has to be some trust involved, but it involves accepting a person exactly the way they are without trying to force-fit them to some anachronistic relationship mold.
A person with healthy self-esteem won't put up with life with someone who is fundamentally incompatible with them, either. Even if they love them. "Falling in love" is a chemical state. Making a life commitment to love is something you should do not because you "fall in love" (because that can happen over and over and over again for as long as you're alive) but because you know you have found a good match for your love. A LOT of people stay together miserably because they're "in love" when they would be happier if they moved on and found a COMPATIBLE partner to fall in love with.
TROOF
That first part is just chemicals. Chemicals lose potency. Which is probably also why there are serial monogamists. They are chasing a new high.
Love
Brain studies by biological anthropologist Helen Fisher show that if you are a secure person with good self-esteem and you find a good match to make a love commitment to, the "in love" parts of your brain stay stimulated for the duration of the relationship. Isn't that something? I find it incredibly hopeful.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 07:00:15 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 07, 2011, 06:57:13 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 06:38:55 PM
I see what you're saying, Nigel...a person with healthy self-esteem obviously isn't going to put up with certain things, like abuse, chronic alcoholism, chronially out-of-work guys. And there's nothing inherently wrong with saying "I want a family at some point and I'm going to make that a priority". I just find it odd that these people throw the L word around so much. Didn't TGRR once define it as "the state or condition of caring about somebody more than you care about yourself"? Not out of low self-esteem, any more than you put your kids first out of low self-esteem. It's just the way it is. You don't grant it to somebody who's going to turn you into a human speed bump, there has to be some trust involved, but it involves accepting a person exactly the way they are without trying to force-fit them to some anachronistic relationship mold.
A person with healthy self-esteem won't put up with life with someone who is fundamentally incompatible with them, either. Even if they love them. "Falling in love" is a chemical state. Making a life commitment to love is something you should do not because you "fall in love" (because that can happen over and over and over again for as long as you're alive) but because you know you have found a good match for your love. A LOT of people stay together miserably because they're "in love" when they would be happier if they moved on and found a COMPATIBLE partner to fall in love with.
TROOF
That first part is just chemicals. Chemicals lose potency. Which is probably also why there are serial monogamists. They are chasing a new high.
Love
Brain studies by biological anthropologist Helen Fisher show that if you are a secure person with good self-esteem and you find a good match to make a love commitment to, the "in love" parts of your brain stay stimulated for the duration of the relationship. Isn't that something? I find it incredibly hopeful.
No shit?
girls have cooties
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 07, 2011, 07:18:31 PM
girls have cooties
That is why I stay away from girls.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 07, 2011, 07:18:31 PM
girls have cooties
No shit we do. You need the cootie shot damn it.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:53:17 PM
A person with healthy self-esteem won't put up with life with someone who is fundamentally incompatible with them, either. Even if they love them.
Well, no. But we tend to be whammied by the people with similar views to ours. I was trying to say that there would be some points where compromise would be in order. And this is good because a little friction is good...being with somebody who agreed with you totally on every last thing would be boring.
Quote
"Falling in love" is a chemical state.
There goes the romance... :lol:
Quote
Making a life commitment to love is something you should do not because you "fall in love" (because that can happen over and over and over again for as long as you're alive) but because you know you have found a good match for your love.
I'm a little confused here...how can it be anything substantial enough to call "love" (as opposed to infatuation/attraction, codependency, etc.) if it's not a good match?
Quote
A LOT of people stay together miserably because they're "in love" when they would be happier if they moved on and found a COMPATIBLE partner to fall in love with.
Disagree. They think they're in love, it's something else.
Oh, ok, Coyote already named it. Love Infatuation. :D
Just now saw that...
Semantics ITT.
I really have no patience for the semantical bullshit people try to confuse the issue with. Here:
http://www.ted.com/talks/helen_fisher_tells_us_why_we_love_cheat.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/helen_fisher_studies_the_brain_in_love.html
I've always had a large number of my friends being female, although as friends I've never been able to consider any of them particularly super close. I don't have a shyness around them in general terms but as soon as I get to soul baring, I can do that more easily with guys and a very small number of women.
It always made dating a difficult thing, and every time I've had deeper involvement with women it seems to have grown out of some kind of communal social gathering where I had a bit to drink and happened to be in a pretty good mood. It was slightly different with Pixie of course, as we didn't anywhere near hook up at the DoD - we just kinda built on that online till it caught fire months later.
With regards to the older man / younger woman gig, there is some small amount of biology in that, but to my mind it really is very much the commodisation of sex. Mostly a "product" for self validation and a status symbol to other men. Or so I believe, having never actively pursued a woman for sexual ends.
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 07, 2011, 06:47:24 PM
I give up.
Hmm. Let me try to explain.
OP referred to ugly men blaming women for not wanting them sexually. I called this externalizing/projecting. OP pointed out that the solution was in the mirror. I called that internalizing. Mrs LMNO pointed out that overdoing that internalization could lead to self-hate, anorexia, bulimia, etc.
Quote from: Unqualified on May 07, 2011, 04:28:35 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 04:14:13 PM
In my observation (I've been very interested in shy men for probably about eight to ten years) the best thing you could do to get over your fear of approaching women is to go to bars and parties, and make eye contact and smile.
And just talk to them. Just say hi, or make a comment on the beer or the decor or someone's sweater. Don't hit on them, just talk. Hitting on women is a horrible way to meet women, anyway. Also, staring. No. Never stare. This might sound obvious but I had a friend who was a virgin at 38, and I actually had to tell him that staring at people creeps them the fuck out. Most shy people don't have that problem though; they have the opposite problem.
Here's the thing. You WILL experience rejection. Some women will assume you're hitting on them and will give you the brush off. But you'll also find that very often, after you've made eye contact and smiled (also a good way to make friends with same-sex people) at someone who is an appropriate match for you, in your ball-park in terms of age and beauty and culture (perhaps another terminally awkward hipster) they'll come and talk to you.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I don't even know how to find out about parties. The very concept of a "party" is alien to me.
ETA: That "HAHAHAHAHA" bit wasn't to be rude or throw your advice back in your face or anything, by the way. That was horrormirth. I have finally realized exactly how pathetic I am. Thank you. That's sincere, too. I need to know the truth if I ever want to change anything.
You could go out to a bar, it's not quite a party, but it is a social situation.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 07, 2011, 06:33:16 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 05:34:00 PM
Nigel nailed it. :)
I think there's a flipside, though, and I see a lot of it in my work (psychic line - ducks blows)...a lot of women view men, or rather marriage, as a commodity. They look for boyfriends like they're interviewing prospective employees (he has to make X-amount of money and be tall and blah blah) and they seem to have some kind of time frame for marriage, they'll dump a guy who doesn't live up to it because he "won't commit". All very businesslike but they consider it "love".
It seems to me that if you care enough about somebody that you'd even consider being tied to them for any length of time, you'd work out whatever was mutually agreeable and that would involve compromise...probably just live together or see each other and if you don't have a piece of paper, so what?
I could see all this in the 19th century or something when the alternative to hitting the husband lottery wahttp://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=1043756;topic=29115.0;num_replies=13;sesc=9f10863cc36962420be928aa5099117ds indentured servitude as a governess or something like that, but it doesn't seem very thought out these days... :?
I had a coworker like that. It was the weirdest fucking thing. It was totally alien to my way of thinking. Bit of background info: she was 27 ish, from Michigan, and I believe, Methodist, but I could be wrong about that.
She and another coworker were dating when they started working there. I guess she kinda pressured him into proposing. They were engaged for a while and she kept talking about the time frame for having a baby, which meant getting to work on it immediately. Surprise of surprises, he called off the wedding. She didn't seem sad so much as angry.
Anyway, she eventually started talking about this other guy at her church and she was talking about him like she was engaged to him. Like, she was definitely going to marry him, and she was going to have his babies. Turns out they weren't even dating yet. She was scoping him out as a sperm donor. Well, anyway she did start dating him, they did get married and they have a kid. We met the husband to be a couple of times. He looked like a deer caught in headlights. It was the weirdest thing to watch. Apparently she had been engaged before the broken off engagement too.
As far as the old dudes go- Men of all ages want to have sex with attractive women between the ages of 18 and 24. This is a constant whether your 12 or in the nursing home. The problem comes in when they realistically can't accept that they're old/fat/bald/weird looking/creepy. If I find myself single and 40, and can't snag other 40 somethings, I'm going to have a look at my self and see what I'm doing wrong, since I'm the common factor in my failure to find someone to be with. I don't know why a middle aged guy would want to date someone who is just fresh out of college anyway. They're going to be in way different places in their lives and won't look at the world in the same way.
I'm 33 and I honestly find women between 27 and 40 to be more physically attractive than women between 18 and 24, the 18-24 year olds look like children to me, and although I sometimes am attracted I feel uncomfortable and pederasty about it.
I'm only 24 now and I've seen 19 year olds who I would have been extremely bothered about if I was younger, but just was not interested because they were too youthful.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 07, 2011, 08:53:30 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 07, 2011, 06:47:24 PM
I give up.
Hmm. Let me try to explain.
OP referred to ugly men blaming women for not wanting them sexually. I called this externalizing/projecting. OP pointed out that the solution was in the mirror. I called that internalizing. Mrs LMNO pointed out that overdoing that internalization could lead to self-hate, anorexia, bulimia, etc.
The point of recognizing that the problem lies within is not to HATE yourself. The point is to CHANGE yourself... to grow, and to heal.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on May 07, 2011, 10:06:25 PM
I'm 33 and I honestly find women between 27 and 40 to be more physically attractive than women between 18 and 24, the 18-24 year olds look like children to me, and although I sometimes am attracted I feel uncomfortable and pederasty about it.
This indicates healthy maturation of the psyche... you're not "stuck" at an age where some men get stuck, usually due to not being able to make sexual connections with women of their own age at the time. Some become more able to meet women as they get older, but until they work through it they're trapped at 22, feeling deprived of female contact.
Almost everyone still enjoys looking at beautiful young women, though. Even 7-year-old girls enjoy looking at beautiful young women, because they're pretty.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 07, 2011, 07:03:44 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 07:00:15 PM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 07, 2011, 06:57:13 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 06:38:55 PM
I see what you're saying, Nigel...a person with healthy self-esteem obviously isn't going to put up with certain things, like abuse, chronic alcoholism, chronially out-of-work guys. And there's nothing inherently wrong with saying "I want a family at some point and I'm going to make that a priority". I just find it odd that these people throw the L word around so much. Didn't TGRR once define it as "the state or condition of caring about somebody more than you care about yourself"? Not out of low self-esteem, any more than you put your kids first out of low self-esteem. It's just the way it is. You don't grant it to somebody who's going to turn you into a human speed bump, there has to be some trust involved, but it involves accepting a person exactly the way they are without trying to force-fit them to some anachronistic relationship mold.
A person with healthy self-esteem won't put up with life with someone who is fundamentally incompatible with them, either. Even if they love them. "Falling in love" is a chemical state. Making a life commitment to love is something you should do not because you "fall in love" (because that can happen over and over and over again for as long as you're alive) but because you know you have found a good match for your love. A LOT of people stay together miserably because they're "in love" when they would be happier if they moved on and found a COMPATIBLE partner to fall in love with.
TROOF
That first part is just chemicals. Chemicals lose potency. Which is probably also why there are serial monogamists. They are chasing a new high.
Love
Brain studies by biological anthropologist Helen Fisher show that if you are a secure person with good self-esteem and you find a good match to make a love commitment to, the "in love" parts of your brain stay stimulated for the duration of the relationship. Isn't that something? I find it incredibly hopeful.
No shit?
Yeah, check those links I posted a bit back... love REALLY IS a drug, and in a rewarding long-term committed love relationship, your reward centers continue being stimulated the whole time.
When you break up with someone, you actually go into withdrawal, which is why it feels so terrible. Love, it turns out, is incredibly similar to cocaine.
I'm trying to get back into like, making friends after basically severing everyone who wasn't good for me, (read: most of my friends) and the way I'm trying to do it is: I'm joining clubs.
Which kind of sucks, because, getting fucked in a pub and meeting someone you'd hang out wiff is like, well everyone's just plain disposable aren't they? If you come off bad with one person, you write them off as a "stranger".
When you try joining clubs, it's like, you fuck up, You're going to see that stranger again. :-/ And they're going to be one of the limited number of people in the room available to talk at. Which makes talking to women with "I'm not trying to fuck you" intentions (I'm married) all the more awkward, because if they think you're after them, then, damn. That's just awkward.
Volunteering is a GREAT way to meet people of the opposite sex, if you volunteer at the right things.
I just got back from my first day at a Habitat for Humanity build (my sister's new house) and now I think I know what I'm doing allll summer... :lol:
Anyway, between my admiration of Helen Fisher, my interest in science, and my decade-long fascination with shyness, I think I've figured out what I want to be, which is a biological anthropologist. I want to study shyness, classify different types of shyness, and figure out how it works in the brain.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 10:48:36 PM
Anyway, between my admiration of Helen Fisher, my interest in science, and my decade-long fascination with shyness, I think I've figured out what I want to be, which is a biological anthropologist. I want to study shyness, classify different types of shyness, and figure out how it works in the brain.
:fap:
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:47:43 PMYanno? I'm pretty hot for 40. I'm not going to find a gorgeous 30-year-old mate to spend the rest of my life with... that's unrealistic, but more to the point, it's unappealing. I want someone who is my peer, someone I can relate to, so I'm going to look for a guy who kind of lives my lifestyle, who is also pretty hot for 40. It's not that it's "unfair" that I won't give fat suburban 40-somethings a chance, it's that they are ALREADY NOT A GOOD MATCH. If I have any kind of self-esteem, there is no reason at all for me to even consider it.
I think, though, that for a lot of people, ten years or so either way doesn't really make any difference. They read the same things, have the same friends, listen to the same bands, there's plenty to talk about. So what if one of them wasn't around for what went on when the other one was in third grade?
Twenty years difference = :vom: though.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 08:06:22 PM
I really have no patience for the semantical bullshit people try to confuse the issue with. Here:
http://www.ted.com/talks/helen_fisher_tells_us_why_we_love_cheat.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/helen_fisher_studies_the_brain_in_love.html
Vids won't load for me. It'd take me three days to watch those. :x
I did find links to a bunch of articles here (http://www.helenfisher.com/articles.html) but what I'm trying to understand is this - does she say love and infatuation are one and the same??
Here is a little contrast between the pleasure centers being stimulated by beautiful young women.
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdm3T67IXdA&feature=fvwrel
...and then this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l07cMK6iWUk
...and tell me which one was more pleasurable to view.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:04:14 PM
It's actually not that they're unappealing. They are probably appealing (physically, if not psychologically) to women who are approximately in the same ball park of age and looks. But that's not good enough for them. See the hypocrisy?
Everyone else is exactly as self-absorbed as you are. They're not thinking about you, except inasmuch as they're thinking about you watching them and judging them.
Trust me.
I know all of this, on an intellectual level. I know that they're not actually judging me. I still maintain the irrational belief that they are.
Quote from: Unqualified on May 07, 2011, 11:06:45 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:04:14 PM
It's actually not that they're unappealing. They are probably appealing (physically, if not psychologically) to women who are approximately in the same ball park of age and looks. But that's not good enough for them. See the hypocrisy?
Everyone else is exactly as self-absorbed as you are. They're not thinking about you, except inasmuch as they're thinking about you watching them and judging them.
Trust me.
I know all of this, on an intellectual level. I know that they're not actually judging me. I still maintain the irrational belief that they are.
Which means maybe therapy or at least more time outside with people.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 11:04:33 PM
Here is a little contrast between the pleasure centers being stimulated by beautiful young women.
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdm3T67IXdA&feature=fvwrel
...and then this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l07cMK6iWUk
...and tell me which one was more pleasurable to view.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
That almost made me ghey.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 11:02:50 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 08:06:22 PM
I really have no patience for the semantical bullshit people try to confuse the issue with. Here:
http://www.ted.com/talks/helen_fisher_tells_us_why_we_love_cheat.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/helen_fisher_studies_the_brain_in_love.html
Vids won't load for me. It'd take me three days to watch those. :x
I did find links to a bunch of articles here (http://www.helenfisher.com/articles.html) but what I'm trying to understand is this - does she say love and infatuation are one and the same??
I would read some of the articles, though the lectures are really the best way to absorb it. Chemically speaking, love and infatuation are both, metaphorically, the same cocaine. If you become infatuated with a good match, your reward centers receive consistent doses of love chemicals, continually reinforcing the condition of "being in love". If you get a bad match, your reward centers are alternately highly dosed and then deprived of love chemicals, creating the emotional roller-coaster effect. It's highly addictive and people often stay in unhealthy relationships because "but when things are good, they're SO good".
But of course, when things are bad, you go through really agonizing withdrawal pains as your reward receptors are deprived of the spiked doses of love chemicals they're anticipating.
When you get over someone, the reward receptors shut down. Once they stop anticipating the reward, the withdrawals end and the pain stops.
Being in a relationship that triggers anxiety or insecurity due to incompatibilities is actually physically painful, as it generates that spike/withdrawal cycle. People with low self-esteem will tolerate that, because they don't understand that it's not healthy love, they don't think they can do better, or they don't think they deserve better. People with good self-esteem recognize that their partner isn't a good match, and move on, go through withdrawals, and look for a better match.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 07, 2011, 11:07:51 PM
Quote from: Unqualified on May 07, 2011, 11:06:45 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 06:04:14 PM
It's actually not that they're unappealing. They are probably appealing (physically, if not psychologically) to women who are approximately in the same ball park of age and looks. But that's not good enough for them. See the hypocrisy?
Everyone else is exactly as self-absorbed as you are. They're not thinking about you, except inasmuch as they're thinking about you watching them and judging them.
Trust me.
I know all of this, on an intellectual level. I know that they're not actually judging me. I still maintain the irrational belief that they are.
Which means maybe therapy or at least more time outside with people.
Therapy.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 11:14:28 PM
I would read some of the articles, though the lectures are really the best way to absorb it. Chemically speaking, love and infatuation are both, metaphorically, the same cocaine.
Same cocaine but not the same thing...people get infatuated with people they don't even know. Love=/= Bieber fever. :p
QuoteIf you become infatuated with a good match, your reward centers receive consistent doses of love chemicals, continually reinforcing the condition of "being in love". If you get a bad match, your reward centers are alternately highly dosed and then deprived of love chemicals, creating the emotional roller-coaster effect. It's highly addictive and people often stay in unhealthy relationships because "but when things are good, they're SO good".
But the emotional rollercoaster effect can come from the individual's own insecurities, it doesn't necessarily indicate a bad match. As a rule, infatuation stage is "the bells are ringing, the sun is shining" and then the experience floods with the fear of losing it, but you just recognise that for what it is. This is what I tell clients all the time, guys don't always text back, it doesn't mean HE HATES YOU AND HE'S IN THE BED WITH YOUR BEST FRIEND LAUGHING AT YOU.
I mean, yeah, if he treats you like crap, you bail, but the rollercoaster is part of that stage regardless.
Quote
But of course, when things are bad, you go through really agonizing withdrawal pains as your reward receptors are deprived of the spiked doses of love chemicals they're anticipating.
When you get over someone, the reward receptors shut down. Once they stop anticipating the reward, the withdrawals end and the pain stops.
"The thrill is gone..." :D
QuoteBeing in a relationship that triggers anxiety or insecurity due to incompatibilities is actually physically painful, as it generates that spike/withdrawal cycle. People with low self-esteem will tolerate that, because they don't understand that it's not healthy love, they don't think they can do better, or they don't think they deserve better. People with good self-esteem recognize that their partner isn't a good match, and move on, go through withdrawals, and look for a better match.
Yeah, if it's really incompatibilities. Sometimes it's peoples' own demons, though.
Stella, this thread is not about a philosophical debate about "what love is". In fact, it's not about love at all.
The biological components of love are one thing; of course psychological and behavioral components affect them. What, exactly, is the point you are trying to make, and how is it relevant to the topic?
You know what really, really fucks you up? Platonic rejection. "What the fuck is fundamentally wrong with me?" vs. "Why don't people want my dick?"
I feel like I'm fucking five years old right now. I feel like a fucking child. What happened to me man? I used to be beautiful.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 11:30:16 PM
Yeah, if it's really incompatibilities. Sometimes it's peoples' own demons, though.
In what way do a person's own demons creating insecurity in a relationship not qualify as "incompatibilities"? :?
Many incompatibilities that are not a disparity in life goals are simply unresolved individual neuroses. Mr. Language (who is shy, making this post nominally topical) and I have extremely compatible life goals, but our individual unresolved neuroses make us incompatible partners at this time.
Quote from: Slyph on May 08, 2011, 12:39:13 AM
You know what really, really fucks you up? Platonic rejection. "What the fuck is fundamentally wrong with me?" vs. "Why don't people want my dick?"
I feel like I'm fucking five years old right now. I feel like a fucking child. What happened to me man? I used to be beautiful.
Sometimes it's you, but sometimes it's them. If they give you feedback on why they rejected you, give it fair consideration.
If you have recently made a positive life change, you may have outgrown them... they may express this by telling you that you're uptight, no fun anymore, that you act like you're better than them, etc. If they have made a recent positive life change, they may feel that they've outgrown you and it's no longer healthy for them to spend time with you.
It's evidently not them, since it's everyone. I'm screaming into the dark, there's no fucking echo. I don't feel like I've had a successful conversation in months, At this point I'm shitting myself at the store, panicking in case I fuck up and they think I'm weird... buying things... like a snickers. What the fuck...
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 11:04:33 PM
Here is a little contrast between the pleasure centers being stimulated by beautiful young women.
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdm3T67IXdA&feature=fvwrel
...and then this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l07cMK6iWUk
...and tell me which one was more pleasurable to view.
Honestly? The first one I was thinking...this is just fucking weird.
The second one had me smiling and feeling good.
Quote from: ϗ, M.S. on May 08, 2011, 12:57:44 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 11:04:33 PM
Here is a little contrast between the pleasure centers being stimulated by beautiful young women.
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdm3T67IXdA&feature=fvwrel
...and then this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l07cMK6iWUk
...and tell me which one was more pleasurable to view.
Honestly? The first one I was thinking...this is just fucking weird.
The second one had me smiling and feeling good.
The first one is, indeed, extremely weird. It's an art piece on using women's bodies as a commodity to sell unrelated merchandise. The second, obviously, is a spoof of the first.
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 01:00:22 AM
Quote from: ϗ, M.S. on May 08, 2011, 12:57:44 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 11:04:33 PM
Here is a little contrast between the pleasure centers being stimulated by beautiful young women.
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdm3T67IXdA&feature=fvwrel
...and then this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l07cMK6iWUk
...and tell me which one was more pleasurable to view.
Honestly? The first one I was thinking...this is just fucking weird.
The second one had me smiling and feeling good.
The first one is, indeed, extremely weird. It's an art piece on using women's bodies as a commodity to sell unrelated merchandise. The second, obviously, is a spoof of the first.
And the second was more pleasurable to view.
Quote from: Slyph on May 08, 2011, 12:56:33 AM
It's evidently not them, since it's everyone. I'm screaming into the dark, there's no fucking echo. I don't feel like I've had a successful conversation in months, At this point I'm shitting myself at the store, panicking in case I fuck up and they think I'm weird... buying things... like a snickers. What the fuck...
Did you change something about your life recently?
Are people really avoiding you, or are you just paranoid that they're avoiding you? Have you asked anyone?
Quote from: ϗ, M.S. on May 08, 2011, 01:01:23 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 01:00:22 AM
Quote from: ϗ, M.S. on May 08, 2011, 12:57:44 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 11:04:33 PM
Here is a little contrast between the pleasure centers being stimulated by beautiful young women.
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdm3T67IXdA&feature=fvwrel
...and then this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l07cMK6iWUk
...and tell me which one was more pleasurable to view.
Honestly? The first one I was thinking...this is just fucking weird.
The second one had me smiling and feeling good.
The first one is, indeed, extremely weird. It's an art piece on using women's bodies as a commodity to sell unrelated merchandise. The second, obviously, is a spoof of the first.
And the second was more pleasurable to view.
You already said it was more pleasurable for you. I wasn't arguing about that, I was simply agreeing that the first one was weird, and explained what it was meant to be.
The second one was somewhat amusing, although I don't personally find it aesthetically pleasing, and watching it after seeing the first one drove the message of the first home harder for me, making me actually cringe a little more and probably get less amusement from it than I would otherwise have done.
Also, I posted those mostly to be funny, and it was a good opening...
Quote from: Slyph on May 08, 2011, 12:56:33 AM
It's evidently not them, since it's everyone. I'm screaming into the dark, there's no fucking echo. I don't feel like I've had a successful conversation in months, At this point I'm shitting myself at the store, panicking in case I fuck up and they think I'm weird... buying things... like a snickers. What the fuck...
Have you started/changed/stopped/gone off any meds??
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 12:34:52 AM
Stella, this thread is not about a philosophical debate about "what love is". In fact, it's not about love at all.
The biological components of love are one thing; of course psychological and behavioral components affect them. What, exactly, is the point you are trying to make, and how is it relevant to the topic?
Was trying to clarify what exactly is meant by "love" for the purpose of the discussion, because it seems to jump from infatuation to dysfunction to brain chemicals to the real stuff and back again ITT.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 08, 2011, 01:27:20 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 12:34:52 AM
Stella, this thread is not about a philosophical debate about "what love is". In fact, it's not about love at all.
The biological components of love are one thing; of course psychological and behavioral components affect them. What, exactly, is the point you are trying to make, and how is it relevant to the topic?
Was trying to clarify what exactly is meant by "love" for the purpose of the discussion, because it seems to jump from infatuation to dysfunction to brain chemicals to the real stuff and back again ITT.
It's all love. How functional it is depends on how functional the individuals experiencing it are.
Stella, since you brought it up and seem to want to keep talking about it, please to be starting own thread for discussing/debating "love"? This thread is about shyness.
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 12:40:28 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 07, 2011, 11:30:16 PM
Yeah, if it's really incompatibilities. Sometimes it's peoples' own demons, though.
In what way do a person's own demons creating insecurity in a relationship not qualify as "incompatibilities"? :?
I would think of "incompatibility" as something coming from BOTH people. Part of their basic natures, not something that has to be fixed, or can be.
Personal demons are purely internal, the only way to fix them is DIY and it's the responsibility of the individual who has them to root them out and shine some rational light on them. They can lead to some horrible disagreements, I just wouldn't call them incompatibilities.
Quote
Many incompatibilities that are not a disparity in life goals are simply unresolved individual neuroses. Mr. Language (who is shy, making this post nominally topical) and I have extremely compatible life goals, but our individual unresolved neuroses make us incompatible partners at this time.
I see what you're saying. I just tend to separate neuroses and incompatibilty.
Peace. 8)
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 01:34:07 AM
Stella, since you brought it up and seem to want to keep talking about it, please to be starting own thread for discussing/debating "love"? This thread is about shyness.
I'm all done.
Don't have a fix for shyness except "brazen it out"...that's not enough in a lot of cases.
Carry on.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 11:04:33 PM
Here is a little contrast between the pleasure centers being stimulated by beautiful young women.
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdm3T67IXdA&feature=fvwrel
...and then this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l07cMK6iWUk
...and tell me which one was more pleasurable to view.
Youtube doubler says that the girls win because there were too many colseups on glisteny chest getting rubbed in the guys'.
Helen Fisher, the speaker in the links I posted earlier, is a biological anthropologist who specializes in understanding and explaining romantic love. She has several books, and there are .pdfs of at least a couple of her studies available online... she's the expert, and does a much better job of explaining it than I ever could.
I've never been shy. I can talk to strangers pretty easily and even though sometimes they are clearly looking at me and thinking "this guy's a weirdo" I tend to take that well. I was really shy about talking to women up until my mid twenties though. That's not really the right way to put it, since I could talk to women, including attractive women, so long as I wasn't trying to express an interest in them romantically or sexually. if I tried to do that I'd end up acting incredibly awkward and usually freaking them out. I was also really poor at reading whether or not she was interested in me.
I think what helped me grow out of it was interacting online in chatsites and whatnot. People have to describe their body language when flirting there, and it let me see the parts that were likely to express interest and what to pay attention to. I was also able to get some idea of the sorts of reactions I would get from my own body language.
I still have a far easier time flirting online than I do face to face, but I don't feel awkward or scared about it any longer. Online makes a good place to practice, since it doesn't really matter that much if you do make a mistake, it may not be the best environment for everyone, but it helped me a lot.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 07:37:24 AM
Again, I think this is a different issue from "shyness", which is a type of social phobia that can lead to isolation and misanthropy.
Along with shyness the other leading cause of misanthropy is meeting other people.
Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2011, 04:14:13 PM
...an appropriate match for you, in your ball-park in terms of age and beauty and culture (perhaps another terminally awkward hipster) they'll come and talk to you.
Personally I don't see the point of being in a league (as the term pertains to dating) if you aren't going to play outside of it.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on May 07, 2011, 06:33:16 PM
As far as the old dudes go- Men of all ages want to have sex with attractive women between the ages of 18 and 24. This is a constant whether your 12 or in the nursing home. The problem comes in when they realistically can't accept that they're old/fat/bald/weird looking/creepy. If I find myself single and 40, and can't snag other 40 somethings, I'm going to have a look at my self and see what I'm doing wrong, since I'm the common factor in my failure to find someone to be with. I don't know why a middle aged guy would want to date someone who is just fresh out of college anyway. They're going to be in way different places in their lives and won't look at the world in the same way.
I think the age range for most men would between the ages of 18 to (MansAge +(MansAge/10)). With leeway of course to suit each individual man's experiences and predispositions.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 07, 2011, 07:18:31 PM
girls have cooties
Sexy sexy cooties.
Plus, FACT, cooties kill chiggers.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 08, 2011, 01:27:20 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 12:34:52 AM
Stella, this thread is not about a philosophical debate about "what love is". In fact, it's not about love at all.
The biological components of love are one thing; of course psychological and behavioral components affect them. What, exactly, is the point you are trying to make, and how is it relevant to the topic?
Was trying to clarify what exactly is meant by "love" for the purpose of the discussion, because it seems to jump from infatuation to dysfunction to brain chemicals to the real stuff and back again ITT.
Everything about us is chemicals.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 04:49:57 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 08, 2011, 01:27:20 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 12:34:52 AM
Stella, this thread is not about a philosophical debate about "what love is". In fact, it's not about love at all.
The biological components of love are one thing; of course psychological and behavioral components affect them. What, exactly, is the point you are trying to make, and how is it relevant to the topic?
Was trying to clarify what exactly is meant by "love" for the purpose of the discussion, because it seems to jump from infatuation to dysfunction to brain chemicals to the real stuff and back again ITT.
Everything about us is chemicals.
Yeah, a friend of mine once commented, "Love is nothing but a bunch of chemicals". I said, "Yeah, but so are we".
We are a bunch of chemicals with consciousness, so we get to make choices about what we do with love and how we go about loving. But love itself is still a chemical reaction in the brain, just as the brain itself is a collection of chemicals.
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 05:19:32 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 04:49:57 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 08, 2011, 01:27:20 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 12:34:52 AM
Stella, this thread is not about a philosophical debate about "what love is". In fact, it's not about love at all.
The biological components of love are one thing; of course psychological and behavioral components affect them. What, exactly, is the point you are trying to make, and how is it relevant to the topic?
Was trying to clarify what exactly is meant by "love" for the purpose of the discussion, because it seems to jump from infatuation to dysfunction to brain chemicals to the real stuff and back again ITT.
Everything about us is chemicals.
Yeah, a friend of mine once commented, "Love is nothing but a bunch of chemicals". I said, "Yeah, but so are we".
We are a bunch of chemicals with consciousness, so we get to make choices about what we do with love and how we go about loving. But love itself is still a chemical reaction in the brain, just as the brain itself is a collection of chemicals.
Which to me says that we should accept it and seek to understand how we work to make our lives more fulfilling.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 05:37:37 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 05:19:32 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 04:49:57 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 08, 2011, 01:27:20 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 12:34:52 AM
Stella, this thread is not about a philosophical debate about "what love is". In fact, it's not about love at all.
The biological components of love are one thing; of course psychological and behavioral components affect them. What, exactly, is the point you are trying to make, and how is it relevant to the topic?
Was trying to clarify what exactly is meant by "love" for the purpose of the discussion, because it seems to jump from infatuation to dysfunction to brain chemicals to the real stuff and back again ITT.
Everything about us is chemicals.
Yeah, a friend of mine once commented, "Love is nothing but a bunch of chemicals". I said, "Yeah, but so are we".
We are a bunch of chemicals with consciousness, so we get to make choices about what we do with love and how we go about loving. But love itself is still a chemical reaction in the brain, just as the brain itself is a collection of chemicals.
Which to me says that we should accept it and seek to understand how we work to make our lives more fulfilling.
Hells to the yeah!
This is really an interesting thread for me, even though I don't have anything productive to add.
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 05:48:42 AM
This is really an interesting thread for me, even though I don't have anything productive to add.
I bet you have something to add, you just haven't percolated it yet.
I know how you are, missy.
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 06:00:35 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 05:48:42 AM
This is really an interesting thread for me, even though I don't have anything productive to add.
I bet you have something to add, you just haven't percolated it yet.
I know how you are, missy.
Ain't like nuffin, miss. [/surly denial]
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 06:01:16 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 06:00:35 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 05:48:42 AM
This is really an interesting thread for me, even though I don't have anything productive to add.
I bet you have something to add, you just haven't percolated it yet.
I know how you are, missy.
Ain't like nuffin, miss. [/surly denial]
You posted in di fread.
YOU HAVE THOUGHTS BUBBLING AND BREWING IN YUOR HEADTHING!!!!!!!!!!!
DON'T LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or....I might be high.
:lol:
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 06:02:18 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 06:01:16 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 06:00:35 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 05:48:42 AM
This is really an interesting thread for me, even though I don't have anything productive to add.
I bet you have something to add, you just haven't percolated it yet.
I know how you are, missy.
Ain't like nuffin, miss. [/surly denial]
You posted in di fread.
YOU HAVE THOUGHTS BUBBLING AND BREWING IN YUOR HEADTHING!!!!!!!!!!!
DON'T LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or....I might be high.
I'm posting, and I have no thoughts at all.
Yep. It's bone, from ear to ear.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 08, 2011, 06:03:27 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 06:02:18 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 06:01:16 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 06:00:35 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 05:48:42 AM
This is really an interesting thread for me, even though I don't have anything productive to add.
I bet you have something to add, you just haven't percolated it yet.
I know how you are, missy.
Ain't like nuffin, miss. [/surly denial]
You posted in di fread.
YOU HAVE THOUGHTS BUBBLING AND BREWING IN YUOR HEADTHING!!!!!!!!!!!
DON'T LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or....I might be high.
I'm posting, and I have no thoughts at all.
Yep. It's bone, from ear to ear.
YUO ARE NOT FREEKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 06:04:46 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 08, 2011, 06:03:27 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 06:02:18 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 06:01:16 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 06:00:35 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 05:48:42 AM
This is really an interesting thread for me, even though I don't have anything productive to add.
I bet you have something to add, you just haven't percolated it yet.
I know how you are, missy.
Ain't like nuffin, miss. [/surly denial]
You posted in di fread.
YOU HAVE THOUGHTS BUBBLING AND BREWING IN YUOR HEADTHING!!!!!!!!!!!
DON'T LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or....I might be high.
I'm posting, and I have no thoughts at all.
Yep. It's bone, from ear to ear.
YUO ARE NOT FREEKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as YOU know. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 08, 2011, 06:05:35 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 06:04:46 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 08, 2011, 06:03:27 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 06:02:18 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 06:01:16 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 06:00:35 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 05:48:42 AM
This is really an interesting thread for me, even though I don't have anything productive to add.
I bet you have something to add, you just haven't percolated it yet.
I know how you are, missy.
Ain't like nuffin, miss. [/surly denial]
You posted in di fread.
YOU HAVE THOUGHTS BUBBLING AND BREWING IN YUOR HEADTHING!!!!!!!!!!!
DON'T LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or....I might be high.
I'm posting, and I have no thoughts at all.
Yep. It's bone, from ear to ear.
YUO ARE NOT FREEKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as YOU know. :lulz:
:aaa:
Two laptops in one house, it'd be so easy to be on both at the same time. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 08, 2011, 06:05:35 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 06:04:46 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 08, 2011, 06:03:27 AM
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 08, 2011, 06:02:18 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 06:01:16 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 06:00:35 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 05:48:42 AM
This is really an interesting thread for me, even though I don't have anything productive to add.
I bet you have something to add, you just haven't percolated it yet.
I know how you are, missy.
Ain't like nuffin, miss. [/surly denial]
You posted in di fread.
YOU HAVE THOUGHTS BUBBLING AND BREWING IN YUOR HEADTHING!!!!!!!!!!!
DON'T LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or....I might be high.
I'm posting, and I have no thoughts at all.
Yep. It's bone, from ear to ear.
YUO ARE NOT FREEKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as YOU know. :lulz:
:x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
I hate you both :argh!:
My mind is a birdcage, tonight.
And it has not been cleaned. :lulz:
Reading through this thread was very interesting. It makes me wonder where the line is between shyness and fear of the opposite sex. A person could be shy, or shy just around the opposite sex or just in certain situations. I wonder if some people intentionally go after people who aren't in their "league" because they are too afraid to approach someone they would actually have a chance with? It's possible that that type of trying to get a date is actually a symptom of gynophobia rather than a cause of it.
Some of the posters discussing shyness sound like they are a touch more than simply shy. I would fall into that category. I have social anxiety. Very simply put it is an extreme form of shyness specifically in social situations where you feel that other people are constantly judging you. Poor self esteem can compound the issue making you certain that everyone is going to think poorly of you no matter what. Social anxiety can be so bad the people will literally do everything they can to avoid leaving their "safe" areas.
Eh, I think I figured it out. The biggest change, lately, was the change in my job duties, I got taken out of the house I was working in and put on minibus runs. Now I pretty much hated everyone who worked with me in the house, all the cool people had fled when we got a new manager, one of my buddies got hounded out of his job after two people conspired to make it look as though he was stealing from the service users (He wasn't).
Now I work on the bus, and I fucking LOVE my colleagues, I love their wrinkled old asses, they're my bus mom and dad. But what's missing is; I used to be the only competent worker. I used to be the only one who wasn't a gossiping shithead. I was the only non-idiot there, and I'm not so smart. Here's a typical quote from one of the people I used to work with...
"What's Berlin?"
You catch that? Not "Where's Berlin?" fucking "What is Berlin." Someone used the word Berlin in a sentence, girl didn't know what it meant. Damn.
Basically I don't feel axiomatically good and cool by process of elimination. I don't have a bunch of whiny half assed backstabbers around me to make me feel positively fucking chivalrous all the time. I've lost faith in myself because I no longer have the lovely ego boost that comes from not being them.
And I miss my bro Patient H, we had some times :-/
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 07, 2011, 08:53:30 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 07, 2011, 06:47:24 PM
I give up.
Hmm. Let me try to explain.
OP referred to ugly men blaming women for not wanting them sexually. I called this externalizing/projecting. OP pointed out that the solution was in the mirror. I called that internalizing. Mrs LMNO pointed out that overdoing that internalization could lead to self-hate, anorexia, bulimia, etc.
aaaahhhh okay now I get it. See I was thinking you were talking about Unqualified's problems, not the OP, hence it didn't make any sense to me. Thanks :)
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 08, 2011, 07:46:48 AM
Reading through this thread was very interesting. It makes me wonder where the line is between shyness and fear of the opposite sex. A person could be shy, or shy just around the opposite sex or just in certain situations. I wonder if some people intentionally go after people who aren't in their "league" because they are too afraid to approach someone they would actually have a chance with? It's possible that that type of trying to get a date is actually a symptom of gynophobia rather than a cause of it.
Some of the posters discussing shyness sound like they are a touch more than simply shy. I would fall into that category. I have social anxiety. Very simply put it is an extreme form of shyness specifically in social situations where you feel that other people are constantly judging you. Poor self esteem can compound the issue making you certain that everyone is going to think poorly of you no matter what. Social anxiety can be so bad the people will literally do everything they can to avoid leaving their "safe" areas.
Shyness is actually very poorly clinically defined, and also very poorly studied. It seems obvious that seeking a mate that is clearly far from a match for oneself in terms of age, appearance, and even interests and culture (I don't mean ethnic culture-of-origin, but chosen culture... for instance, a Republican suburbanite from Beaverton who isn't very intellectual, dislikes liberals, and is uncomfortable with hipsters is an obvious poor cultural match for me, yet they hit on me all the time) is a symptom of something. I don't think it's a symptom of "shyness", but it may be a symptom of a neurosis that has the same root as shyness.
I think that "shyness" is an umbrella word used to cover a number of neuroses, including social anxiety, various phobias, and intense shame and low self-esteem.
Nigel is on to something ITT. I think you ought to go get a degree in this field, you could do something with it. :)
I tend to be slightly shy around people in general, until I've had a moment to get used to them. But it's really not a big impediment. What really impedes me is that I never seem to notice when a girl is showing interest. It goes straight over my head.
No joke: Was at an indian restaurant. Me, another single dude, a couple, and the girlfriend's sister. Other single dude was hitting on the sister all night, but when she was asked what kind of guys she tends to date, she comes out and says "I mostly just sleep with Lucas' friends." And then stares at me. I did NOT notice this, somehow, but everyone else did. I heard about it quite a lot afterward.
Sigh. :lol:
Me, I can be painfully shy with new people... unless I've already locked on to something we have in common. Drop me in a party with a bunch of strangers, and I'll be the one sitting in the corner desperately wishing for it to be time to go home... Though, somewhere I'm comfortable, say, a battlefield at Pennsic, where I may not KNOW everybody, I can strike up a conversation with just about anybody.
I'm shy at first, but i can pretend I'm not if i need to. so its not really noticeable except in my head.
I don't go up and talk to new people easily but it they come up to me i'm fine
Quote from: Nigel on May 08, 2011, 06:10:32 PM
Quote from: Wyldkat on May 08, 2011, 07:46:48 AM
Reading through this thread was very interesting. It makes me wonder where the line is between shyness and fear of the opposite sex. A person could be shy, or shy just around the opposite sex or just in certain situations. I wonder if some people intentionally go after people who aren't in their "league" because they are too afraid to approach someone they would actually have a chance with? It's possible that that type of trying to get a date is actually a symptom of gynophobia rather than a cause of it.
Some of the posters discussing shyness sound like they are a touch more than simply shy. I would fall into that category. I have social anxiety. Very simply put it is an extreme form of shyness specifically in social situations where you feel that other people are constantly judging you. Poor self esteem can compound the issue making you certain that everyone is going to think poorly of you no matter what. Social anxiety can be so bad the people will literally do everything they can to avoid leaving their "safe" areas.
Shyness is actually very poorly clinically defined, and also very poorly studied. It seems obvious that seeking a mate that is clearly far from a match for oneself in terms of age, appearance, and even interests and culture (I don't mean ethnic culture-of-origin, but chosen culture... for instance, a Republican suburbanite from Beaverton who isn't very intellectual, dislikes liberals, and is uncomfortable with hipsters is an obvious poor cultural match for me, yet they hit on me all the time) is a symptom of something. I don't think it's a symptom of "shyness", but it may be a symptom of a neurosis that has the same root as shyness.
I think that "shyness" is an umbrella word used to cover a number of neuroses, including social anxiety, various phobias, and intense shame and low self-esteem.
I'd love to see more studies on it personally. Not just because I have social anxiety either. My youngest son has social issues, we're getting him diagnosed after a six month wait (argh....) this summer, but one of his main issues is what a lot of people term as shyness, same with a cubscout in my den who has an Asperger's diagnosis. It's not shyness though, it's a misunderstanding of how to interact with other people and a lack of ability to judge and understand social cues. But people call it "being shy." I agree that it is used as an umbrella term and I'm starting to get irked at it being used that way.
I think a lot of the social "issues" tend to be comorbid (based on personal experience and observation and a little research) which would make picking it all apart just that much harder.
For example, someone with a low self-esteem would be afraid of hitting on someone they might actually match with due to the belief that a realistic match would never happen because they are so unworthy. Therefore, to save themselves from the hurt of the rejection they believe will happen they will hit on people they have no chance with, simply because they have no chance with them so rejection makes sense. However after being rejected enough by unrealistic matches they might start to connect the rejection with the unattainable women and through that with all women leading to gynophobia. I'm not saying that this happens consciously, but I could see it happening... So what's the base problem? Not the gynophobia, it's simply a symptom of the base problem but ends up comorbid with the low self-esteem that started the whole mess. AND none of it is due to shyness.
Firstly, the whole idea of identifying the cognitive whatsits around shyness is completely awesome.
I know I myself used to feel very awkward in social situations. Now im a lot better; as stupid as it would sound to some people the MBTI actually helped by making me realize that falling below my own high expectations does not = falling below other peoples expectations.
I still am shy in some situations, and a lot of this is due to my having a pretty fuzzy concept of appropriateness. It frustrates me that I see men acting in the way Nigel describes, which I find distasteful, but knowing that they so so because that's what men do if they want to have a sex life without being in a relationship. So I have difficulty understanding how to talk to women, wanting to move towards something with a sexual element, without just copying the kind of bogan behavior I see around me. I can talk and chat and be platonic with ease but platonic makes platonic. Anyway the point I'm making is that I think an uncertainty about what 'normal' or 'appropriate' is, especially when wanting to be a decent person where indecency seems rewarded.
There are plenty of guys to whom social rules are extremely confusing. Books like 'The Game' about the pick up artist culture cop a lot of shit (and rightly so) but the fact is that until i read it in my first year if university there were so so many superbasic social concepts I just didn't understand, from basic positive self talk, to projecting confidence. If you don't have male friends who know how, or can be bothered explaining how the world of women works, theres little other avenue for understanding. The problem there is, while a lot of this advice is good, the surrounding culture buys into the idea of sex as validation/keeping score.
Once upon a time, I had the 3 month rule. No having sex unless you were dating for at least 3 months. That has long since gone out the window, but at that age in my life, it felt morally appropriate. I've found that since I've gotten older, sex has become something more casual, but what I dislike is how disconnected it can be.
As children/young teens, we're taught that it should be special and such, but that so-called "magic" flies right out the window after you're first couple of partners, and you're suddenly on the hunt for immediate satisfaction rather than a true intimate connection.
A guy I know once told me that when he was in high school, he would actually have sex with a girl before dating her. THAT I find repulsive. He's since grown out of the habit, but we've pretty much boiled it down to him being relatively unattractive and unpopular through junior high, and when he finally got out of his 'ugly duckling' stage, he raced to catch up, only very unnecessarily. His behavior didn't change a whole lot through college, and he's lucky he didn't catch something vile.
wait what?
how is having sex with people before dating them repulsive...
The fact that he was 15 and wouldn't even ask a girl out unless he slept with her first? IMO too young to get into those habits.
ah 15. that makes more sense.
i'm not seeing how anything you posted relates to shyness though.
Quote from: The Fred ⊂(◉‿◉)つ on May 09, 2011, 12:44:10 AM
ah 15. that makes more sense.
i'm not seeing how anything you posted relates to shyness though.
He used it as a way to actually get dates because up until that point he had UDS, so that was his tact. Nail 'em first, ask them to dinner later. He didn't develop what we may consider "normal" social skills.
This has been an exceedingly interesting topic to read through. :D
I know! It's one of those ideas that's interested me before I had the words to think about it properly.
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 07:43:05 PM
Nigel is on to something ITT. I think you ought to go get a degree in this field, you could do something with it. :)
I'm seriously thinking about it.
My ex-husband (Polar Bear Pants, if anyone remembers that guy) used to tell me that interest in shyness is "a creepy obsession"
I'll fucking creepy him!
Quote from: Nigel on May 09, 2011, 03:21:55 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 07:43:05 PM
Nigel is on to something ITT. I think you ought to go get a degree in this field, you could do something with it. :)
I'm seriously thinking about it.
My ex-husband (Polar Bear Pants, if anyone remembers that guy) used to tell me that interest in shyness is "a creepy obsession"
I'll fucking creepy him!
This just really tickled me. :lol:
I completely disagree that after the first couple of partners, sex loses its magic. It's not like tape, that loses its stick after being used a few times. It's magical with the right person, if you are in the right emotional space.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 09, 2011, 03:23:06 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 09, 2011, 03:21:55 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 08, 2011, 07:43:05 PM
Nigel is on to something ITT. I think you ought to go get a degree in this field, you could do something with it. :)
I'm seriously thinking about it.
My ex-husband (Polar Bear Pants, if anyone remembers that guy) used to tell me that interest in shyness is "a creepy obsession"
I'll fucking creepy him!
This just really tickled me. :lol:
I aim to please. :)
Quote from: Nigel on May 09, 2011, 03:26:37 AM
I completely disagree that after the first couple of partners, sex loses its magic. It's not like tape, that loses its stick after being used a few times. It's magical with the right person, if you are in the right emotional space.
Saying that sex loses its 'magic' after the first few partners would be like saying that hugging would.
Coyote, fully enjoys the full gamut of physicality between people.
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 09, 2011, 07:16:47 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 09, 2011, 03:26:37 AM
I completely disagree that after the first couple of partners, sex loses its magic. It's not like tape, that loses its stick after being used a few times. It's magical with the right person, if you are in the right emotional space.
Saying that sex loses its 'magic' after the first few partners would be like saying that hugging would.
Coyote, fully enjoys the full gamut of physicality between people.
Yeah, I think that if it doesn't feel like it has magic, then don't have it and work on your personal stuff until you're in a situation where it does.
I think that feelings add a HUGE difference, sure.
I guess what I'm trying to say that your perception of sex changes after time? From "This is something I should do with someone I love only" to "I can do this with anyone and it's okay". Not that everyone HAS that exact same revelation, but hopefully you get my drift.
Quote from: Nigel on May 09, 2011, 03:26:37 AM
I completely disagree that after the first couple of partners, sex loses its magic. It's not like tape, that loses its stick after being used a few times. It's magical with the right person, if you are in the right emotional space.
Okay, this I'll agree on. :)
Quote from: Suu the Infallible on May 09, 2011, 12:08:37 PM
I think that feelings add a HUGE difference, sure.
I guess what I'm trying to say that your perception of sex changes after time? From "This is something I should do with someone I love only" to "I can do this with anyone and it's okay". Not that everyone HAS that exact same revelation, but hopefully you get my drift.
The thing is, depending on your time and place, "sex with anyone" is OK. It can be fulfilling and affirming in terms of making you feel attractive/desired, but the thing is, yes... it's OK. Just OK. It's not like sex with someone who fills you with butterflies and faerie elf mahadgiques and giddiness. But if you find someone you really like and have fantastic sex with them, or even start having fantastic sex with someone you wouldn't normally like all that much, your brain starts leaking love juice.
So, you have to be careful with that shit.
I lawl'd.
Love juice gets you in trouble. EVERY. TIME.
True story.
Yep.
-Suu
In trouble.
STOP SMILING. GAH.
-Suu
No, really. Counting down the days til Friday. Help. This wasn't supposed to happen...
Quote from: Suu the Infallible on May 09, 2011, 04:05:54 PM
STOP SMILING. GAH.
-Suu
No, really. Counting down the days til Friday. Help. This wasn't supposed to happen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RumflDMoCxw
Quote from: Nigel on May 09, 2011, 04:11:05 PM
Quote from: Suu the Infallible on May 09, 2011, 04:05:54 PM
STOP SMILING. GAH.
-Suu
No, really. Counting down the days til Friday. Help. This wasn't supposed to happen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RumflDMoCxw
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Quote from: Canis latrans securis on May 09, 2011, 07:16:47 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 09, 2011, 03:26:37 AM
I completely disagree that after the first couple of partners, sex loses its magic. It's not like tape, that loses its stick after being used a few times. It's magical with the right person, if you are in the right emotional space.
Saying that sex loses its 'magic' after the first few partners would be like saying that hugging would.
Coyote, fully enjoys the full gamut of physicality between people.
I've never thought of hugging as magic, although it can be pretty great when you haven't seen someone in a long time.
Sex is great the first few times even if it's not, just because it is new, then you develop some standards. For some people that means it loses it's magic because they don't do what it takes to make sure it lives up to those standards, for others that opens up a whole new level of intensity.
"Hugging magick" as a variety on sex magick ... :lulz:
Quote from: Triple Zero on May 10, 2011, 01:08:44 PM
"Hugging magick" as a variety on sex magick ... :lulz:
I dunno about magick... but it often makes me feel a hell of a lot better than I did a minute before, and, some days, that's all the magic I really need.
Isn't serial monogamy just the current, arbitrary form of a sexual relationship, a compromise between our old Christian morality, and our less-old Chatterly-ban-Beatles-first-LP Sexual Lib, care of AIDS?
The hell does that have to do with anything?
We're talking sexual morality, we're talking "Sex isn't special if you do it with everyone/too much". I thought it was a worthwhile thing to say, but I'm quite often wrong about that.
I thought we were talking about shyness and general fear of intimacy.
Quote from: Unqualified on May 10, 2011, 11:31:10 PM
I thought we were talking about shyness and general fear of intimacy.
Thank you. That WAS the idea...
Okay, I have something to add now, after thinking on it. I'm not sure where I'll be going with this, so feel free to extrapolate.
So last week sometime, Roger's dad took Roger, TGG, Enabler and I out to dinner. Practically the whole time, starting from the minute Roger's dad walked in the door, to about the time we were finished eating but before the check arrived, I was PARALYZED with terror and anxiety, and I'm not entirely sure over what. I do know I couldn't meet our waitress' or bussers eyes during that time, and after only managed a few glances. I made an attempt at contributing to the conversation once, but mostly kept my eyes on my plate. I didn't want people to get angry(?) with me, so I just tried to stay invisible. And that was silly and ridiculous.
The end.
Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on May 11, 2011, 01:29:21 AM
Okay, I have something to add now, after thinking on it. I'm not sure where I'll be going with this, so feel free to extrapolate.
So last week sometime, Roger's dad took Roger, TGG, Enabler and I out to dinner. Practically the whole time, starting from the minute Roger's dad walked in the door, to about the time we were finished eating but before the check arrived, I was PARALYZED with terror and anxiety, and I'm not entirely sure over what. I do know I couldn't meet our waitress' or bussers eyes during that time, and after only managed a few glances. I made an attempt at contributing to the conversation once, but mostly kept my eyes on my plate. I didn't want people to get angry(?) with me, so I just tried to stay invisible. And that was silly and ridiculous.
The end.
That's the kind of "shyness" I would file under "social anxiety", but the origins and contributing components are probably a lot more important than the label.
Sounds likely.
I have a healthy fear of women.
Fortunately, I don't let this stop me.
TGRR,
HEAD'S ALL EMPTY, HE DON'T CARE.
I fear groups of college aged women just fresh from the bar and on their way back to whatever campus they hail from on the subway. Mostly because i know theyre going to hurt my ears. But that has more to do with age and blood alcohol level. Gender just adds a shrillness to it that makes it more cringey than if it was a bunch if dumb frat boys.
The hell didn't I post in this thread before now? Thanks for the bump, Roger, it was a damn good read. I believe that Nigel's thoughts on this topic have been very interesting, and very on point.
Oooofff. This thread reminds me of my youth (up until I was around 23/24).
I was terribly shy, suffered from social anxiety, and could have panic attacks when in large groups. Women absolutely horrified me beyond belief.
Somehow, getting together with a psychotically jealous, notoriously unfaithful girl who managed to stab me with a bread knife for not being allowed to read a text message cured that, somewhat.
Some of it still lingers on, but I manage to at least talk to women now.
As for the misogyny, I don't think I've ever fallen into that trap, even though I am prone to the odd "git to da kitchen womman" joke.
The irony? My best friends have ALWAYS been females.
(I have been up all night, playing with New Cat who finally came down from her SEKRIT LAIR on top of my kitchen cabinets after three weeks, so please don't kill me if this sounds a bit rambl-y)
Quote from: Waffle Iron on January 31, 2012, 08:42:39 AM
Somehow, getting together with a psychotically jealous, notoriously unfaithful girl who managed to stab me with a bread knife for not being allowed to read a text message cured that, somewhat.
This made you LESS nervous around women? :horrormirth:
Quote from: Luna on January 31, 2012, 10:54:05 AM
Quote from: Waffle Iron on January 31, 2012, 08:42:39 AM
Somehow, getting together with a psychotically jealous, notoriously unfaithful girl who managed to stab me with a bread knife for not being allowed to read a text message cured that, somewhat.
This made you LESS nervous around women? :horrormirth:
Viking love. It hurts so good.
Anything that references Byran Adams can't be beneficial.
Quote from: Luna on January 31, 2012, 10:54:05 AM
Quote from: Waffle Iron on January 31, 2012, 08:42:39 AM
Somehow, getting together with a psychotically jealous, notoriously unfaithful girl who managed to stab me with a bread knife for not being allowed to read a text message cured that, somewhat.
This made you LESS nervous around women? :horrormirth:
Well, in a way. It made me realise that women are horrible fucking human beings, just like men. :lulz:
(edited to clarify that it was , indeed, tounge in cheek)
Quote from: Waffle Iron on January 31, 2012, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: Luna on January 31, 2012, 10:54:05 AM
Quote from: Waffle Iron on January 31, 2012, 08:42:39 AM
Somehow, getting together with a psychotically jealous, notoriously unfaithful girl who managed to stab me with a bread knife for not being allowed to read a text message cured that, somewhat.
This made you LESS nervous around women? :horrormirth:
Well, in a way. It made me realise that women are horrible fucking human beings, just like men. :lulz:
(edited to clarify that it was , indeed, tounge in cheek)
Not, however, entirely untrue.
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on May 11, 2011, 01:29:21 AM
Okay, I have something to add now, after thinking on it. I'm not sure where I'll be going with this, so feel free to extrapolate.
So last week sometime, Roger's dad took Roger, TGG, Enabler and I out to dinner. Practically the whole time, starting from the minute Roger's dad walked in the door, to about the time we were finished eating but before the check arrived, I was PARALYZED with terror and anxiety, and I'm not entirely sure over what. I do know I couldn't meet our waitress' or bussers eyes during that time, and after only managed a few glances. I made an attempt at contributing to the conversation once, but mostly kept my eyes on my plate. I didn't want people to get angry(?) with me, so I just tried to stay invisible. And that was silly and ridiculous.
The end.
At least I'm not the only one, except it seems to be a near constant problem. Whether talking to someone or even smiling at a stranger passing by I HAVE to look away from their face, at least their eyes, as it makes me physically uncomfortable. Unless I'm PISSED, but that's only because I'm trying to burn a hole through your soul at that point. A few other exceptions, maybe. But I get the panic attacks in large crowds, paralyzing fear, worry about constant judgment. There's a small handful of people I'm comfortable with, but the paranoia and anxiety can still manage to work their way in sometimes. And it's why I lurk on here most of the time.
I know this is straying off topic, so I'll cut it here, just nice to be able to relate sometimes, even if it's about a shitty thing. And since most people I know would probably be somewhere between thinking I'm batshit insane or give me that weird, judging smile and say "oh that's silly" and think that I'll magically get over it after that brilliant revelation.
Quote from: Luna on January 31, 2012, 04:08:55 PM
Quote from: Waffle Iron on January 31, 2012, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: Luna on January 31, 2012, 10:54:05 AM
Quote from: Waffle Iron on January 31, 2012, 08:42:39 AM
Somehow, getting together with a psychotically jealous, notoriously unfaithful girl who managed to stab me with a bread knife for not being allowed to read a text message cured that, somewhat.
This made you LESS nervous around women? :horrormirth:
Well, in a way. It made me realise that women are horrible fucking human beings, just like men. :lulz:
(edited to clarify that it was , indeed, tounge in cheek)
Not, however, entirely untrue.
Humankind IS horrible, yes. And I find that much easier to deal with than if people were genereally... well... decent people.
Yep... when I fought with the NYEX, I couldn't meet his eyes. Drove him batshit.
Same thing happens any time I get very emotional. Eye contact increases it to overload.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on January 31, 2012, 05:08:49 PM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on May 11, 2011, 01:29:21 AM
Okay, I have something to add now, after thinking on it. I'm not sure where I'll be going with this, so feel free to extrapolate.
So last week sometime, Roger's dad took Roger, TGG, Enabler and I out to dinner. Practically the whole time, starting from the minute Roger's dad walked in the door, to about the time we were finished eating but before the check arrived, I was PARALYZED with terror and anxiety, and I'm not entirely sure over what. I do know I couldn't meet our waitress' or bussers eyes during that time, and after only managed a few glances. I made an attempt at contributing to the conversation once, but mostly kept my eyes on my plate. I didn't want people to get angry(?) with me, so I just tried to stay invisible. And that was silly and ridiculous.
The end.
At least I'm not the only one, except it seems to be a near constant problem. Whether talking to someone or even smiling at a stranger passing by I HAVE to look away from their face, at least their eyes, as it makes me physically uncomfortable. Unless I'm PISSED, but that's only because I'm trying to burn a hole through your soul at that point. A few other exceptions, maybe. But I get the panic attacks in large crowds, paralyzing fear, worry about constant judgment. There's a small handful of people I'm comfortable with, but the paranoia and anxiety can still manage to work their way in sometimes. And it's why I lurk on here most of the time.
I know this is straying off topic, so I'll cut it here, just nice to be able to relate sometimes, even if it's about a shitty thing. And since most people I know would probably be somewhere between thinking I'm batshit insane or give me that weird, judging smile and say "oh that's silly" and think that I'll magically get over it after that brilliant revelation.
It's a submissive gesture. I rarely look people in the eye when talking with them, unless I think about it. Then it feels weird; it doesn't come naturally. I have a feeling it's related to my social development in middle school, when half the peers who talked with me wanted to rough me up.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on January 31, 2012, 06:53:42 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on January 31, 2012, 05:08:49 PM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on May 11, 2011, 01:29:21 AM
Okay, I have something to add now, after thinking on it. I'm not sure where I'll be going with this, so feel free to extrapolate.
So last week sometime, Roger's dad took Roger, TGG, Enabler and I out to dinner. Practically the whole time, starting from the minute Roger's dad walked in the door, to about the time we were finished eating but before the check arrived, I was PARALYZED with terror and anxiety, and I'm not entirely sure over what. I do know I couldn't meet our waitress' or bussers eyes during that time, and after only managed a few glances. I made an attempt at contributing to the conversation once, but mostly kept my eyes on my plate. I didn't want people to get angry(?) with me, so I just tried to stay invisible. And that was silly and ridiculous.
The end.
At least I'm not the only one, except it seems to be a near constant problem. Whether talking to someone or even smiling at a stranger passing by I HAVE to look away from their face, at least their eyes, as it makes me physically uncomfortable. Unless I'm PISSED, but that's only because I'm trying to burn a hole through your soul at that point. A few other exceptions, maybe. But I get the panic attacks in large crowds, paralyzing fear, worry about constant judgment. There's a small handful of people I'm comfortable with, but the paranoia and anxiety can still manage to work their way in sometimes. And it's why I lurk on here most of the time.
I know this is straying off topic, so I'll cut it here, just nice to be able to relate sometimes, even if it's about a shitty thing. And since most people I know would probably be somewhere between thinking I'm batshit insane or give me that weird, judging smile and say "oh that's silly" and think that I'll magically get over it after that brilliant revelation.
It's a submissive gesture. I rarely look people in the eye when talking with them, unless I think about it. Then it feels weird; it doesn't come naturally. I have a feeling it's related to my social development in middle school, when half the peers who talked with me wanted to rough me up.
Makes sense. I didn't have the most pleasant late-middle school though high school experience, followed by an abusive relationship that managed to tear down what little was left of my self-worth and I'm left with a mess of anxiety and neurotic behaviors. You'd think 7 years later I'd be getting through it, but I was already a quiet person and old habits die hard I suppose. But I know I do have a tendency, subconsciously or not, to make myself as un-noticeable/non-threatening as possible.
Trying to steer slightly back on topic, I know in the past I've gotten comments/heard that people thought I was stuck-up, unfriendly or some variable thereof because of my shyness, when it's really a matter of being relatively terrified of people. I'll be the nicest person you know once I warm up to you, but it often takes someone approaching me and/or at least being patient to get past that, so it turns into a pretty vicious circle. I'm afraid of judgment or that people will think I'm weird/rude/whatever for being quiet, so keep my mouth shut, and the cycle continues.
Quote from: Waffle Iron on January 31, 2012, 02:51:14 PM
Well, in a way. It made me realise that women are horrible fucking human beings, just like men.
I can totally relate to this, but from a different angle. I was kind of a habitual asshole in relationships for most of my youth and on in to my early adulthood. Took encountering a serious asshole woman to teach me to forgive myself and move past that nonsense.
Few things to toss out on the OP. I think that some dude's may not be generally shy but just legitimately shy around women they're
interested in. There was all that sidetrack ITT about the chemicals and such. Certainly strong attraction, strong interest, has it's own chemical signature as well. There's definitely got to be a distinction between gynophobia and just not being able to handle your drugs. I think it would be tough to call it gynophobia unless it at least in some way also impacted dudes in their interactions with women they weren't interested in. I mean if it's a phobia it's gotta run a little deeper than a debilitating case of the butterflies.
That aside, I realized reading through this thread that I have exactly two hetero male friends. They're both epic social retards when it comes to their interactions with women. One, I introduced to a friend of mine a couple years back, now they're married and living in a relationship that resembles a low budget 70's disaster film. They do manage to keep their shit together individually, though, which is a big part of why I haven't felt the need to tell them to sit down, shut the fuck up, and listen while I read them the riot act in at least a year. He's a bit off-topic since he's never been shy with women, just drunk, addicted, neurotic, paranoid and addicted to torturing himself with women just like him. Dude two, though, is a bit closer to what you're describing. Not shy, exactly, but more given to presenting himself in an effort to impress women rather than simply approaching and getting to know them. He is exclusively interested in "hot" women. That's always been the case. I don't think it's a status thing, though. He's just truly never showed any interest in any women outside of a certain physical standard. When they don't respond in the way he likes, he is viciously misogynistic. We're close enough friends that I can pop him in the mouth when necessary, though, and he usually thanks me for it later. Think on his part it's an ass-burgers ass-hole tic, more than a deep seated resentment, or anything.
One scenario you didn't mention that I've noticed in a lot of people (I want to throttle) is best demonstrated with a couple of headlines I just pulled from the M4W section on Craig's List:
"Do nice guys always finish last?"
"Is chivalry really dead?"
I fucking loathe this whiny, pathetic, condescending, insecure, over-compensated bullshit. Nevermind that you picked a single trait to define your whole personality rendering you about as interesting as strained rutabaga. Nevermind that your knight in shining armor routine consists of strapping on a papier mache codpiece to hide the fact that you're truly a desparate damsel in distress. And never you fucking mind that flashing this rare and noble virtue of yours comes off every bit as creepy as the guy at the playground flashing that rare and gnarly thing he's got under his trenchcoat. The real nasty irony here is that you don't even see how that tired refrain about nice guys like you always getting overlooked for cocky assholes who just treat women like shit, is utterly patronizing, bitter and misogynistic. If only women weren't so stuck up and superficial and weak and stupid they'd see the substance a guy like you has to offer--you'd treat them like a queen.
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on January 31, 2012, 11:05:31 PM
Quote from: Waffle Iron on January 31, 2012, 02:51:14 PM
Well, in a way. It made me realise that women are horrible fucking human beings, just like men.
I can totally relate to this, but from a different angle. I was kind of a habitual asshole in relationships for most of my youth and on in to my early adulthood. Took encountering a serious asshole woman to teach me to forgive myself and move past that nonsense.
Few things to toss out on the OP. I think that some dude's may not be generally shy but just legitimately shy around women they're interested in. There was all that sidetrack ITT about the chemicals and such. Certainly strong attraction, strong interest, has it's own chemical signature as well. There's definitely got to be a distinction between gynophobia and just not being able to handle your drugs. I think it would be tough to call it gynophobia unless it at least in some way also impacted dudes in their interactions with women they weren't interested in. I mean if it's a phobia it's gotta run a little deeper than a debilitating case of the butterflies.
That aside, I realized reading through this thread that I have exactly two hetero male friends. They're both epic social retards when it comes to their interactions with women. One, I introduced to a friend of mine a couple years back, now they're married and living in a relationship that resembles a low budget 70's disaster film. They do manage to keep their shit together individually, though, which is a big part of why I haven't felt the need to tell them to sit down, shut the fuck up, and listen while I read them the riot act in at least a year. He's a bit off-topic since he's never been shy with women, just drunk, addicted, neurotic, paranoid and addicted to torturing himself with women just like him. Dude two, though, is a bit closer to what you're describing. Not shy, exactly, but more given to presenting himself in an effort to impress women rather than simply approaching and getting to know them. He is exclusively interested in "hot" women. That's always been the case. I don't think it's a status thing, though. He's just truly never showed any interest in any women outside of a certain physical standard. When they don't respond in the way he likes, he is viciously misogynistic. We're close enough friends that I can pop him in the mouth when necessary, though, and he usually thanks me for it later. Think on his part it's an ass-burgers ass-hole tic, more than a deep seated resentment, or anything.
One scenario you didn't mention that I've noticed in a lot of people (I want to throttle) is best demonstrated with a couple of headlines I just pulled from the M4W section on Craig's List:
"Do nice guys always finish last?"
"Is chivalry really dead?"
I fucking loathe this whiny, pathetic, condescending, insecure, over-compensated bullshit. Nevermind that you picked a single trait to define your whole personality rendering you about as interesting as strained rutabaga. Nevermind that your knight in shining armor routine consists of strapping on a papier mache codpiece to hide the fact that you're truly a desparate damsel in distress. And never you fucking mind that flashing this rare and noble virtue of yours comes off every bit as creepy as the guy at the playground flashing that rare and gnarly thing he's got under his trenchcoat. The real nasty irony here is that you don't even see how that tired refrain about nice guys like you always getting overlooked for cocky assholes who just treat women like shit, is utterly patronizing, bitter and misogynistic. If only women weren't so stuck up and superficial and weak and stupid they'd see the substance a guy like you has to offer--you'd treat them like a queen.
PREACH IT!
Quote from: Nigel on January 31, 2012, 11:56:18 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on January 31, 2012, 11:05:31 PM
Quote from: Waffle Iron on January 31, 2012, 02:51:14 PM
Well, in a way. It made me realise that women are horrible fucking human beings, just like men.
I can totally relate to this, but from a different angle. I was kind of a habitual asshole in relationships for most of my youth and on in to my early adulthood. Took encountering a serious asshole woman to teach me to forgive myself and move past that nonsense.
Few things to toss out on the OP. I think that some dude's may not be generally shy but just legitimately shy around women they're interested in. There was all that sidetrack ITT about the chemicals and such. Certainly strong attraction, strong interest, has it's own chemical signature as well. There's definitely got to be a distinction between gynophobia and just not being able to handle your drugs. I think it would be tough to call it gynophobia unless it at least in some way also impacted dudes in their interactions with women they weren't interested in. I mean if it's a phobia it's gotta run a little deeper than a debilitating case of the butterflies.
That aside, I realized reading through this thread that I have exactly two hetero male friends. They're both epic social retards when it comes to their interactions with women. One, I introduced to a friend of mine a couple years back, now they're married and living in a relationship that resembles a low budget 70's disaster film. They do manage to keep their shit together individually, though, which is a big part of why I haven't felt the need to tell them to sit down, shut the fuck up, and listen while I read them the riot act in at least a year. He's a bit off-topic since he's never been shy with women, just drunk, addicted, neurotic, paranoid and addicted to torturing himself with women just like him. Dude two, though, is a bit closer to what you're describing. Not shy, exactly, but more given to presenting himself in an effort to impress women rather than simply approaching and getting to know them. He is exclusively interested in "hot" women. That's always been the case. I don't think it's a status thing, though. He's just truly never showed any interest in any women outside of a certain physical standard. When they don't respond in the way he likes, he is viciously misogynistic. We're close enough friends that I can pop him in the mouth when necessary, though, and he usually thanks me for it later. Think on his part it's an ass-burgers ass-hole tic, more than a deep seated resentment, or anything.
One scenario you didn't mention that I've noticed in a lot of people (I want to throttle) is best demonstrated with a couple of headlines I just pulled from the M4W section on Craig's List:
"Do nice guys always finish last?"
"Is chivalry really dead?"
I fucking loathe this whiny, pathetic, condescending, insecure, over-compensated bullshit. Nevermind that you picked a single trait to define your whole personality rendering you about as interesting as strained rutabaga. Nevermind that your knight in shining armor routine consists of strapping on a papier mache codpiece to hide the fact that you're truly a desparate damsel in distress. And never you fucking mind that flashing this rare and noble virtue of yours comes off every bit as creepy as the guy at the playground flashing that rare and gnarly thing he's got under his trenchcoat. The real nasty irony here is that you don't even see how that tired refrain about nice guys like you always getting overlooked for cocky assholes who just treat women like shit, is utterly patronizing, bitter and misogynistic. If only women weren't so stuck up and superficial and weak and stupid they'd see the substance a guy like you has to offer--you'd treat them like a queen.
PREACH IT!
This sounds familiar. :lulz:
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on January 31, 2012, 11:05:31 PM
Quote from: Waffle Iron on January 31, 2012, 02:51:14 PM
Well, in a way. It made me realise that women are horrible fucking human beings, just like men.
I can totally relate to this, but from a different angle. I was kind of a habitual asshole in relationships for most of my youth and on in to my early adulthood. Took encountering a serious asshole woman to teach me to forgive myself and move past that nonsense.
Few things to toss out on the OP. I think that some dude's may not be generally shy but just legitimately shy around women they're interested in. There was all that sidetrack ITT about the chemicals and such. Certainly strong attraction, strong interest, has it's own chemical signature as well. There's definitely got to be a distinction between gynophobia and just not being able to handle your drugs. I think it would be tough to call it gynophobia unless it at least in some way also impacted dudes in their interactions with women they weren't interested in. I mean if it's a phobia it's gotta run a little deeper than a debilitating case of the butterflies.
That aside, I realized reading through this thread that I have exactly two hetero male friends. They're both epic social retards when it comes to their interactions with women. One, I introduced to a friend of mine a couple years back, now they're married and living in a relationship that resembles a low budget 70's disaster film. They do manage to keep their shit together individually, though, which is a big part of why I haven't felt the need to tell them to sit down, shut the fuck up, and listen while I read them the riot act in at least a year. He's a bit off-topic since he's never been shy with women, just drunk, addicted, neurotic, paranoid and addicted to torturing himself with women just like him. Dude two, though, is a bit closer to what you're describing. Not shy, exactly, but more given to presenting himself in an effort to impress women rather than simply approaching and getting to know them. He is exclusively interested in "hot" women. That's always been the case. I don't think it's a status thing, though. He's just truly never showed any interest in any women outside of a certain physical standard. When they don't respond in the way he likes, he is viciously misogynistic. We're close enough friends that I can pop him in the mouth when necessary, though, and he usually thanks me for it later. Think on his part it's an ass-burgers ass-hole tic, more than a deep seated resentment, or anything.
One scenario you didn't mention that I've noticed in a lot of people (I want to throttle) is best demonstrated with a couple of headlines I just pulled from the M4W section on Craig's List:
"Do nice guys always finish last?"
"Is chivalry really dead?"
I fucking loathe this whiny, pathetic, condescending, insecure, over-compensated bullshit. Nevermind that you picked a single trait to define your whole personality rendering you about as interesting as strained rutabaga. Nevermind that your knight in shining armor routine consists of strapping on a papier mache codpiece to hide the fact that you're truly a desparate damsel in distress. And never you fucking mind that flashing this rare and noble virtue of yours comes off every bit as creepy as the guy at the playground flashing that rare and gnarly thing he's got under his trenchcoat. The real nasty irony here is that you don't even see how that tired refrain about nice guys like you always getting overlooked for cocky assholes who just treat women like shit, is utterly patronizing, bitter and misogynistic. If only women weren't so stuck up and superficial and weak and stupid they'd see the substance a guy like you has to offer--you'd treat them like a queen.
Fuck yes. There's nothing creepier than some tard who insists on calling girls "m'lady" or rushing to get in front of them so he can open the door for them. It's a special subtle kind of creepy and I enjoyed reading your (IMO) scathingly accurate take on it.
"Gynophobia" sounds like an std only bitches get.
*ducks the flaming wrath*