http://diybio.org/ (http://diybio.org/)
Pretty exciting stuff, these guys are putting biology in the hands of people the way that computers were back in the 70's. I don't know where it is all heading, but I am pretty sure it is going to make a lot of differences in everyone's lives within 20 years or so.
:eek: One day EVERYBODY will make super bacteria and re-engineer their pets from the comfort of home. Sounds like strange days indeed!
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 13, 2011, 07:50:59 PM
http://diybio.org/ (http://diybio.org/)
Pretty exciting stuff, these guys are putting biology in the hands of people the way that computers were back in the 70's. I don't know where it is all heading, but I am pretty sure it is going to make a lot of differences in everyone's lives within 20 years or so.
Yeah, biohacking, been hearing about this for a while now. It could do the same for molecular/cellular biology as amateurs did for astronomy.
i remember hearing a good bit about this last year.
my initial reaction is that it is a bit scary having the superempowerment of the individual in the arena of bioengineering...
biolabs modifying microbes, i would think, have a good number of safety checks to keep things from going horribly wrong, but if it's in jim-bob's garage? well....
i don't know enough about it to make an informed decision, but it would be nice to hear a good argument why this shouldn't be a worrying trend.
I need a garage.
Frankly, at this point I have no reason to think it's anything but kind of a cute hobby for bored rich people who want to think they're fancy.
Superempowerment? Ha.
Why does BioShock pop to mind every time I see this thread?
Quote from: Nigel on July 14, 2011, 03:46:38 PM
Frankly, at this point I have no reason to think it's anything but kind of a cute hobby for bored rich people who want to think they're fancy.
Superempowerment? Ha.
Well, they might create a magical E. Coli strain that gives them glitter diarrhea.
Imagine! Rich people everywhere pooping glitter! It'll be great.
Quote from: Cainad on July 14, 2011, 04:07:17 PM
Quote from: Nigel on July 14, 2011, 03:46:38 PM
Frankly, at this point I have no reason to think it's anything but kind of a cute hobby for bored rich people who want to think they're fancy.
Superempowerment? Ha.
Well, they might create a magical E. Coli strain that gives them glitter diarrhea.
Imagine! Rich people everywhere pooping glitter! It'll be great.
I'd love to see that happen.
So, what do they actually do there, then?
Genetic engineering? Sequencing? Making bacteria X excrete protein Y?
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 14, 2011, 04:39:39 PM
So, what do they actually do there, then?
Genetic engineering? Sequencing? Making bacteria X excrete protein Y?
From reading the blog it sounds like mostly they make yogurt and beer.
Quote from: Nigel on July 14, 2011, 04:47:19 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 14, 2011, 04:39:39 PM
So, what do they actually do there, then?
Genetic engineering? Sequencing? Making bacteria X excrete protein Y?
From reading the blog it sounds like mostly they make yogurt and beer.
This pisses me off.
Here I was, hoping that the Bill Gates of infectious diseases was somewhere out there, laughing maniacally in his garage.
Quote from: Nigel on July 14, 2011, 03:46:38 PM
Frankly, at this point I have no reason to think it's anything but kind of a cute hobby for bored rich people who want to think they're fancy.
Superempowerment? Ha.
At the moment it is. However they don't have to be that rich, it's a cute hobby for upper middle class people and rather quickly getting cheaper.
I really do think that biohacking at a scary level will be possible within a decade or so.
Quote from: Iptuous on July 14, 2011, 03:04:32 PM
i remember hearing a good bit about this last year.
my initial reaction is that it is a bit scary having the superempowerment of the individual in the arena of bioengineering...
biolabs modifying microbes, i would think, have a good number of safety checks to keep things from going horribly wrong, but if it's in jim-bob's garage? well....
i don't know enough about it to make an informed decision, but it would be nice to hear a good argument why this shouldn't be a worrying trend.
First of all, it hasn't gotten to the point, now, that people can do these things without first learning all the stuff that goes into it. In other words, there is a great deal of skill and knowledge that must be gained first before any person can jump into it. The investment not only weeds out people who aren't serious, it also means that by the time that people can modify organisms as they please, they have the wisdom of time to do so. So, I don't think the worrying thing are these independent workers (at the moment), the worrying thing are these large scale corporations where people can essentially jump in without learning these things, they are handed the technology and the workforce to handle it. It's very much like, these very humble scientists inventing fission and fusion devices and politicians, who did not have to spend the time and energy and gain wisdom associated with making these discoveries, are yet able to use them as they please.
very good point, Kai.
:)
:crankey:
Wait... you mean I can't just build a Hugh Jackman Wolverine from a kit?
Shit.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 14, 2011, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Nigel on July 14, 2011, 03:46:38 PM
Frankly, at this point I have no reason to think it's anything but kind of a cute hobby for bored rich people who want to think they're fancy.
Superempowerment? Ha.
At the moment it is. However they don't have to be that rich, it's a cute hobby for upper middle class people and rather quickly getting cheaper.
I really do think that biohacking at a scary level will be possible within a decade or so.
I think you're forgetting about the investment of time.
The upper-middle-class have jobs.
Quote from: Nigel on July 15, 2011, 12:17:27 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 14, 2011, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Nigel on July 14, 2011, 03:46:38 PM
Frankly, at this point I have no reason to think it's anything but kind of a cute hobby for bored rich people who want to think they're fancy.
Superempowerment? Ha.
At the moment it is. However they don't have to be that rich, it's a cute hobby for upper middle class people and rather quickly getting cheaper.
I really do think that biohacking at a scary level will be possible within a decade or so.
I think you're forgetting about the investment of time.
The upper-middle-class have jobs.
Consider how much amateur astronomers have done for astronomy, working late at night on weekends and even weeknights, taking long trips for good viewing, buying scopes and other devices.
It's the same sort of thing. I could have a PCR/gel sequencing wetlab running for a lot less than you might think. Sure, it will be slow going, but spending several nights a week working would eventually lead to skill and knowledge, which would allow pressing forward. Same as astronomy takes a great deal of time staring up at the sky night after night, looking for particular phenomena. Then, after several years, you spot a new asteroid, or discover a star that varies in brightness but isn't cataloged as variable.
Think of all the people who work during the day and yet find time to devote to their consuming passionate hobbies.
Funny that biotechnologists think biotechnology is biology. This should be called diy biotechnology. People have always done diy biology. Humans are primates, mammals, eukaryotic organisms. Every day you take care of and feed a biological organism -yourself. Gardeners, farmers, pet owners are all diy biologists. I have an aquarium with soil and living plants and a stable population of guppies. The biological interactions going on in that one little tank would take several hundred lifetimes to describe (ballpark bullshit estimate -probably forever is more realistic). Fucking around with genes is just that. Turn your yard into a native garden with as much diversity as your climate will allow. Make your own biosphere II in a pop-up greenhouse in your back yard. Grown your own herbs and veggies. That's biology.
I guess I'm an ecologist, and ecology interests me. Biotechnology does not. Biotechnology asks "how can we apply an industrial manufacturing model to living organisms?" Ecology asks "what the fuck is going on naturally, without our fucking with it, and how can we live with it, without fucking it up?" Make a baby, that's diy biology. take a shit. Pay attention to the world around you -it's all biology. You don't need pipettes and agar.
Quote from: Phlogiston Merriweather on July 15, 2011, 02:25:27 AM
Funny that biotechnologists think biotechnology is biology. This should be called diy biotechnology. People have always done diy biology. Humans are primates, mammals, eukaryotic organisms. Every day you take care of and feed a biological organism -yourself. Gardeners, farmers, pet owners are all diy biologists. I have an aquarium with soil and living plants and a stable population of guppies. The biological interactions going on in that one little tank would take several hundred lifetimes to describe (ballpark bullshit estimate -probably forever is more realistic). Fucking around with genes is just that. Turn your yard into a native garden with as much diversity as your climate will allow. Make your own biosphere II in a pop-up greenhouse in your back yard. Grown your own herbs and veggies. That's biology.
I guess I'm an ecologist, and ecology interests me. Biotechnology does not. Biotechnology asks "how can we apply an industrial manufacturing model to living organisms?" Ecology asks "what the fuck is going on naturally, without our fucking with it, and how can we live with it, without fucking it up?" Make a baby, that's diy biology. take a shit. Pay attention to the world around you -it's all biology. You don't need pipettes and agar.
Look, you're getting in the way of SCIENCE.
You can be a mad scientist running the train, or a pedantic ecologist on the tracks. You choose.
Quote from: Phlogiston Merriweather on July 15, 2011, 02:25:27 AM
Funny that biotechnologists think biotechnology is biology. This should be called diy biotechnology. People have always done diy biology. Humans are primates, mammals, eukaryotic organisms. Every day you take care of and feed a biological organism -yourself. Gardeners, farmers, pet owners are all diy biologists. I have an aquarium with soil and living plants and a stable population of guppies. The biological interactions going on in that one little tank would take several hundred lifetimes to describe (ballpark bullshit estimate -probably forever is more realistic). Fucking around with genes is just that. Turn your yard into a native garden with as much diversity as your climate will allow. Make your own biosphere II in a pop-up greenhouse in your back yard. Grown your own herbs and veggies. That's biology.
I guess I'm an ecologist, and ecology interests me. Biotechnology does not. Biotechnology asks "how can we apply an industrial manufacturing model to living organisms?" Ecology asks "what the fuck is going on naturally, without our fucking with it, and how can we live with it, without fucking it up?" Make a baby, that's diy biology. take a shit. Pay attention to the world around you -it's all biology. You don't need pipettes and agar.
Greetings Pholgiston.
It seems to me that the activities described in ecology are now being permanently altered by the effects of biotechnology.
Would it be up to an ecologist to determine the effects of genetic alteration and tailored hormones(or whatever else man uses biotechnology to create that was never there before) on the rest of the "natural" systems?
I believe that our attempts to industrialize life systems have caused problems that may never be remedied.
For example, I am told the prion that causes mad cow, CWD, Creutzfeldt–Jakob is naturally occuring in .X% of a mammal population, and that it collects in the less edible tissues that commonly get ground up and put in the feed for extra protein.
Worse yet I heard it is difficult to destroy by conventional methods because it is not alive, just a nasty protein.
The systems that spread it are new and not going away anytime soon.
Without those systems the infected would just die of it and be decomposed to no great harm.
Quote from: Phlogiston Merriweather on July 15, 2011, 02:25:27 AM
Funny that biotechnologists think biotechnology is biology. This should be called diy biotechnology. People have always done diy biology. Humans are primates, mammals, eukaryotic organisms. Every day you take care of and feed a biological organism -yourself. Gardeners, farmers, pet owners are all diy biologists. I have an aquarium with soil and living plants and a stable population of guppies. The biological interactions going on in that one little tank would take several hundred lifetimes to describe (ballpark bullshit estimate -probably forever is more realistic). Fucking around with genes is just that. Turn your yard into a native garden with as much diversity as your climate will allow. Make your own biosphere II in a pop-up greenhouse in your back yard. Grown your own herbs and veggies. That's biology.
I guess I'm an ecologist, and ecology interests me. Biotechnology does not. Biotechnology asks "how can we apply an industrial manufacturing model to living organisms?" Ecology asks "what the fuck is going on naturally, without our fucking with it, and how can we live with it, without fucking it up?" Make a baby, that's diy biology. take a shit. Pay attention to the world around you -it's all biology. You don't need pipettes and agar.
Why can't we do
both?
Not everyone can do everything, a lot of people who have one dream will lose it simply because there was more important shit to do at the time, like feed your family or not live in a car (not that I'm against living in one's car). Yeah, you should dream hard and work hard to live those dreams but it just doesn't alway work out that way. It's a luxury to be able to just go into a job and get your shit together by simply not being a dumbass...
Maybe I'm losing my point here, it's this:
People taking it upon themselves to learn and DO science is awesome, and some people want to make THINGS happen and take the time even when they don't really have any.
And they make awesome things. A lot of us do that with little things, gardening, writing, music, cooking.
Discounting the desire to DO things and learn from them make zero sense to me. They could watch TV instead, I guess.
As an aside, I would very much like some harmless technological equipment made out of meat. It's not the most stable platform but you can always grow more, better, faster, stronger. Plus, and I find this to be a particularly awesome advantage, when you're computer doesn't act the way it ought to you can give it The Fear.
I just want to get high on some Arabidopsis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabidopsis_thaliana), man.
\
:hippie:
Quote from: Alty on July 16, 2011, 03:30:23 AM
Not everyone can do everything, a lot of people who have one dream will lose it simply because there was more important shit to do at the time, like feed your family or not live in a car (not that I'm against living in one's car). Yeah, you should dream hard and work hard to live those dreams but it just doesn't alway work out that way. It's a luxury to be able to just go into a job and get your shit together by simply not being a dumbass...
Maybe I'm losing my point here, it's this:
People taking it upon themselves to learn and DO science is awesome, and some people want to make THINGS happen and take the time even when they don't really have any.
And they make awesome things. A lot of us do that with little things, gardening, writing, music, cooking.
Discounting the desire to DO things and learn from them make zero sense to me. They could watch TV instead, I guess.
As an aside, I would very much like some harmless technological equipment made out of meat. It's not the most stable platform but you can always grow more, better, faster, stronger. Plus, and I find this to be a particularly awesome advantage, when you're computer doesn't act the way it ought to you can give it The Fear.
I meant humans collectively. Individually we all have our own pet projects.
Why can't we do both?
[/quote]
I guess my problem is this: I disagree with the idea that technological developments are necessary for better living. I'm a bit of a luddite in this regard. If people want to play with genes and molecules in their home labs, the I think they should go for it. I just knee jerk react against people getting too excited about technological progress. It isn't going to make your life better. It will just make new toys. It's kind of consumerist; we will have new products to buy. That's it. You don't need new toys to appreciate biology. I believe this is my point. No disrespect to all the pipette jockeys out there.
Quote from: ϗ, M.S. on July 15, 2011, 12:45:12 AM
Quote from: Nigel on July 15, 2011, 12:17:27 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 14, 2011, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Nigel on July 14, 2011, 03:46:38 PM
Frankly, at this point I have no reason to think it's anything but kind of a cute hobby for bored rich people who want to think they're fancy.
Superempowerment? Ha.
At the moment it is. However they don't have to be that rich, it's a cute hobby for upper middle class people and rather quickly getting cheaper.
I really do think that biohacking at a scary level will be possible within a decade or so.
I think you're forgetting about the investment of time.
The upper-middle-class have jobs.
Consider how much amateur astronomers have done for astronomy, working late at night on weekends and even weeknights, taking long trips for good viewing, buying scopes and other devices.
It's the same sort of thing. I could have a PCR/gel sequencing wetlab running for a lot less than you might think. Sure, it will be slow going, but spending several nights a week working would eventually lead to skill and knowledge, which would allow pressing forward. Same as astronomy takes a great deal of time staring up at the sky night after night, looking for particular phenomena. Then, after several years, you spot a new asteroid, or discover a star that varies in brightness but isn't cataloged as variable.
Think of all the people who work during the day and yet find time to devote to their consuming passionate hobbies.
They're brewing beer and making yogurt.
I dunno, I'm skeptical.
Quote from: Alty on July 16, 2011, 03:30:23 AM
Not everyone can do everything, a lot of people who have one dream will lose it simply because there was more important shit to do at the time, like feed your family or not live in a car (not that I'm against living in one's car). Yeah, you should dream hard and work hard to live those dreams but it just doesn't alway work out that way. It's a luxury to be able to just go into a job and get your shit together by simply not being a dumbass...
Maybe I'm losing my point here, it's this:
People taking it upon themselves to learn and DO science is awesome, and some people want to make THINGS happen and take the time even when they don't really have any.
And they make awesome things. A lot of us do that with little things, gardening, writing, music, cooking.
Discounting the desire to DO things and learn from them make zero sense to me. They could watch TV instead, I guess.
As an aside, I would very much like some harmless technological equipment made out of meat. It's not the most stable platform but you can always grow more, better, faster, stronger. Plus, and I find this to be a particularly awesome advantage, when you're computer doesn't act the way it ought to you can give it The Fear.
I think it's neat that they want to do science for fun. Science IS fun. What I am discounting is the idea that these garage scientists are going to be creating mutants in their home laboratories, or anything even close, anytime soon.
That people are all "OH NOES, RENEGADE SCIENCE!" is what seems silly to me.
Quote from: Nigel on July 17, 2011, 04:53:42 PM
Quote from: Alty on July 16, 2011, 03:30:23 AM
Not everyone can do everything, a lot of people who have one dream will lose it simply because there was more important shit to do at the time, like feed your family or not live in a car (not that I'm against living in one's car). Yeah, you should dream hard and work hard to live those dreams but it just doesn't alway work out that way. It's a luxury to be able to just go into a job and get your shit together by simply not being a dumbass...
Maybe I'm losing my point here, it's this:
People taking it upon themselves to learn and DO science is awesome, and some people want to make THINGS happen and take the time even when they don't really have any.
And they make awesome things. A lot of us do that with little things, gardening, writing, music, cooking.
Discounting the desire to DO things and learn from them make zero sense to me. They could watch TV instead, I guess.
As an aside, I would very much like some harmless technological equipment made out of meat. It's not the most stable platform but you can always grow more, better, faster, stronger. Plus, and I find this to be a particularly awesome advantage, when you're computer doesn't act the way it ought to you can give it The Fear.
I think it's neat that they want to do science for fun. Science IS fun. What I am discounting is the idea that these garage scientists are going to be creating mutants in their home laboratories, or anything even close, anytime soon.
That people are all "OH NOES, RENEGADE SCIENCE!" is what seems silly to me.
I could see certain businesses wanting it called renegade science unless housed and supported in their facility because otherwise it doesn't lead to a payoff for them. I'm thinking especially of pharma.
Quote from: Nigel on July 17, 2011, 04:51:30 PM
Quote from: ϗ, M.S. on July 15, 2011, 12:45:12 AM
Quote from: Nigel on July 15, 2011, 12:17:27 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 14, 2011, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Nigel on July 14, 2011, 03:46:38 PM
Frankly, at this point I have no reason to think it's anything but kind of a cute hobby for bored rich people who want to think they're fancy.
Superempowerment? Ha.
At the moment it is. However they don't have to be that rich, it's a cute hobby for upper middle class people and rather quickly getting cheaper.
I really do think that biohacking at a scary level will be possible within a decade or so.
I think you're forgetting about the investment of time.
The upper-middle-class have jobs.
Consider how much amateur astronomers have done for astronomy, working late at night on weekends and even weeknights, taking long trips for good viewing, buying scopes and other devices.
It's the same sort of thing. I could have a PCR/gel sequencing wetlab running for a lot less than you might think. Sure, it will be slow going, but spending several nights a week working would eventually lead to skill and knowledge, which would allow pressing forward. Same as astronomy takes a great deal of time staring up at the sky night after night, looking for particular phenomena. Then, after several years, you spot a new asteroid, or discover a star that varies in brightness but isn't cataloged as variable.
Think of all the people who work during the day and yet find time to devote to their consuming passionate hobbies.
They're brewing beer and making yogurt.
I dunno, I'm skeptical.
If you look around google you'll find it's a whole lot more than microorganism culture. And as the technology becomes cheaper it's becoming increasingly feasable.
I mean, PCR opened the way for very cheap research. If you purchase DNApolymerase and the right primer and put them in a batch of nucleic acids, you can amplify a gene to high enough levels just by taking it through a series of alternating cool and hot water baths. The hot water pulls the two stranded DNA apart. Cooling allows the primer to bind and the polymerase to function. The number of double strand DNA increases exponentially, till you have a massive amount of a single gene. Chain termination method of sequencing then just uses an electric diode fitted to a gel which pulls the lengths along, longer chains traveling a shorter distance. If you put florescent dye for each of the basepairs in four rows, then what comes out is essentially a UV florescing chart of the sequence.
And this is the old way. Newer sequencing equipment is faster, easier to use and becoming more available every year. Want to insert transposable elements? There's a kit for that. Most of these tools are not that expensive, can be obtained online or through catalogs. Sure, it takes skill and dedication (and attention to detail; contamination is the biggest issue with getting clean results), but I wouldn't be surprised if in 20-30 years lay hobbyists are making discoveries.