So this person I know posted this on her FB:
QuoteBack in September of 2005, on the first day of school, Martha Cothren, a social studies school teacher at Robinson High School in Little Rock , did something not to be forgotten. On the first day of school, with the permission of the school superintendt , the principal and the building supervisor, she removed all of the desks out of her classroom. When the first period kids entered the room they discovered that there were no desks. 'Ms. Cothren, where're our desks?' She replied, 'You can't have a desk until you tell me how you earn the right to sit at a desk.' They thought, 'Well, maybe it's our grades.' ... ... 'No,' she said. 'Maybe it's our behavior.' She told them, 'No, it's not even your behavior.' And so, they came and went, the first period, second period, third period. Still no desks in the classroom. By early afternoon television news crews had started gathering in Ms.Cothren's classroom to report about this crazy teacher who had taken all the desks out of her room. The final period of the day came and as the puzzled students found seats on the floor of the desk less classroom, Martha Cothren said, 'Throughout the day no one has been able to tell me just what he/ she has done to earn the right to sit at the desks that are ordinarily found in this classroom. Now I am going to tell you.' At this point, Martha Cothren went over to the door of her classroom and opened it. Twenty-seven (27) U.S. Veterans, all in uniforms, walked into that classroom, each one carrying a school desk. The Vets began placing the school desks in rows, and then they would walk over and stand alongside the wall. By the time the last soldier had set the final desk in place those kids started to understand, perhaps for the first time in their lives, just how the right to sit at those desks had been earned.. Martha said, 'You didn't earn the right to sit at these desks. These heroes did it for you. They placed the desks here for you. Now, it's up to you to sit in them. It is your responsibility to learn, to be good students, to be good citizens. They paid the price so that you could have the freedom to get an education. Don't ever forget it.' By the way, this is a true story. Please consider passing this along so others won't forget that the freedoms we have in this great country were earned by U. S. Veterans
Considering the recent discussion about education, and a larger overall discussion of US IR that has been held here, you could imagine my reaction to such a thing.
Really, it's a tame thing. Some teacher making a hokey, sentimental point to inspire apathetic youth or perhaps simply to satisfy her own sense of patriotism. Yet, my first thought it, my son needs to go to a private school. If one of his teachers pull some shit like that he will be gone the next day.
I tried to think of
why that pissed me off so much. Maybe it's because I consider this person a friend and am disappointed that she would genuinely accept such a ridiculous idea as valid.
I have no ill regard towards people who serve in the military, at least no more than I feel towards humans generally. But I refuse to accept that they are the sole force that provides me with my freedoms. Especially not since the last World War.
Then I think: Where do my freedoms come from? The one's that aren't being etched away, that is. Let's not think about the 4th Amendment, yeah? We'll just leave that alone. I live in a place where I can, mostly, say what I want, when I want, as loud as I want. That's pretty important to me. Once an ex-communist from Croatia, excited to speak with an young, opinionated American teenager asked me: "What is freedom? Is it being able to own a gun?" I thought about it for a second. "It's being allowed to call the President an asshole without having your head shoved in a black bag and never being heard from again, or just shot in the street."
Generally, I feel pretty damned free. I could, should I so choose, quit my job, pack up a car and ZOOM. Do what the hell I want. For the most part, that's good enough for me. We all have different ideas of what freedom means. A large part of it is being free from others ideas, force, will. That's universal, and, again, for the most part, Americans have this.
SO, besides the freedoms we DON'T have, and the THREATS to that freedom, and such...where does freedom come from? What enables that freedom?
I think, and this may be a flawed view, that it's largely luck. The right place at the right time with the right (albeit, stolen) natural resources and rate of development combined with a few pieces of paper and a lot of killing, and afterwards, fucking.
If not, and more generally: where does freedom come from?
ETA: I'd like to think that freedom is a thing outside the influence of others. Or, rather, that it is a thing that exists and can be utilized under certain conditions, but is not given. It is something you either have, and it can be taken away. Or it is something that someone is keeping from you and you must reclaim. But that might be idealism.
This reminds me of the status updates I get from some of my friends across the military. Those kind where they bitch about the shit, which EVERYONE is fucking allowed to do, but then end with, "at least I know I am defending our FreedomsTM out here in Afghanistan". I have to restrain the urge to explain in detail how they aren't defending our freedoms by being out in 'stan, doing whatever they are doing.
Freedom comes from you seizing it and being utterly unwilling to relinquish it no matter what.
Can someone explain to me, in a sort of alternative-history kind of fashion, what would have happened if those vets hadn't done their thing and what sequence of events led to your children having the freedom to sit in a classroom or not?
For bonus points, discuss whether these vets might not have done a good enough job at whatever it was they did, because even though your kids have the right to sit in a classroom, apparently you're all still waiting for the other 27 vets to carry a proper education into that classroom as well, right?
I'd rather sit on the floor than be taught about creationism.
Wow, that (the FB post) _could have been_ a very, very interesting tale about Privilege.
Too bad that teacher doesn't understand the difference.
"Why do I have the right to a desk? Because my parents and neighbors pay taxes, so I can have a desk, and an education. As your grandstanding is costing me the one, today, bring in my desk so I can at least have the other."
Quote from: Luna on September 23, 2011, 11:12:30 AM
"Why do I have the right to a desk? Because my parents and neighbors pay taxes, so I can have a desk, and an education. As your grandstanding is costing me the one, today, bring in my desk so I can at least have the other."
^^ pretty sure I wrote a reply there but it's gone? well it was just one of general agreement, you didnt miss much.
Quote from: Luna on September 23, 2011, 11:12:30 AM
"Why do I have the right to a desk? Because my parents and neighbors pay taxes, so I can have a desk, and an education. As your grandstanding is costing me the one, today, bring in my desk so I can at least have the other."
:mittens:
I was expecting the kids to go to a different classroom and steal someone else's desk.
"What earns you the right to sit at a desk in my classroom?"
"Possession."
Is the teacher trying to say that kids in other countries don't have desks?
Because I'm pretty sure COMMUNIST CHINA has plenty of desks.
Story is obvious bullshit.
No classroom in any normal high school in the world only has 27 students. Even in 2005. You're lucky if you get that number in private schools.
Freedom comes from saying, "THIS IS WHAT I'M GONNA DO. OR KILL ME."
And then living up to it, if necessary.
Also, story is bullshit.
Shockingly enough, Snopes says true.
http://www.snopes.com/glurge/nodesks.asp
So, Mrs. Cockring, you're saying that my desk was liberated from a Nazi/Viet Cong/Islamofascist/Other (preferably swarthy) Foreigner? Because that seems like a very inefficient and expensive procurement method to me. Couldn't we have saved tax dollars by just buying the fucking desks?
I'M ONLY GONNA SPIT THIS ONCE: FREEDOM DOES NOT COME FROM SOLDIERS.
NORTH KOREA HAS SOLDIERS. NAZI GERMANY HAD SOLDIERS. TOJO HAD SOLDIERS. STALIN HAD SOLDIERS.
FREEDOM COMES FROM THE COMMON MAN WILLING TO PULL A PATRICK HENRY.
THAT IS ALL. YOU MAY NOW RETURN TO YOUR EMAIL FORWARDS.
So, Snopes sheds some light on this.
- First, it was a
military history class. It's still jingoistic, but it somehow makes a tiny bit more sense, given the context.
- Second, it was a High School. I don't know why this makes a difference to me, but it feels "better" than if this was done to a bunch of third graders. By the time you get to High School, kids should be better prepared for this kind of stuff. I know for sure that if I was in a Military History class, and the teacher asked what "right" I have to a desk, it wouldn't take me too long to figure out what she's on about.
That said, Dok Howl has one sweet looking motorcycle:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 23, 2011, 03:24:36 PM
I'M ONLY GONNA SPIT THIS ONCE: FREEDOM DOES NOT COME FROM SOLDIERS.
NORTH KOREA HAS SOLDIERS. NAZI GERMANY HAD SOLDIERS. TOJO HAD SOLDIERS. STALIN HAD SOLDIERS.
FREEDOM COMES FROM THE COMMON MAN WILLING TO PULL A PATRICK HENRY.
THAT IS ALL. YOU MAY NOW RETURN TO YOUR EMAIL FORWARDS.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 23, 2011, 03:24:36 PM
I'M ONLY GONNA SPIT THIS ONCE: FREEDOM DOES NOT COME FROM SOLDIERS.
NORTH KOREA HAS SOLDIERS. NAZI GERMANY HAD SOLDIERS. TOJO HAD SOLDIERS. STALIN HAD SOLDIERS.
FREEDOM COMES FROM THE COMMON MAN WILLING TO PULL A PATRICK HENRY.
THAT IS ALL. YOU MAY NOW RETURN TO YOUR EMAIL FORWARDS.
Ah, but those weren't True Soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman). You can tell, because True Soldiers fight for Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_of_command).
FREEDOM IS NOT MY REPONSIBILITY. WE HAVE SOLDIERS FOR THAT.
\
:mullet:
Jerry Pournelle is one of my favorite authors. He is a raging conservative
by the standards of the 1970s, but he has a LOT to say about the role of soldiers. One quote of his that I particularly like - and agree with, given my own military experience - is:
Quote from: Jerry Pournelle"Soldiers cannot solve your problems. The most they can do is buy you some time so that YOU can solve those problems. That is the absolute limit of their capabilities."
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 23, 2011, 04:56:17 PM
Jerry Pournelle is one of my favorite authors. He is a raging conservative by the standards of the 1970s,
Which means he's a Marxist by today's standards, yeah?
Also, very accurate assessment.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 23, 2011, 03:28:28 PM
- Second, it was a High School. I don't know why this makes a difference to me, but it feels "better" than if this was done to a bunch of third graders. By the time you get to High School, kids should be better prepared for this kind of stuff. I know for sure that if I was in a Military History class, and the teacher asked what "right" I have to a desk, it wouldn't take me too long to figure out what she's on about.
When pressed for the answer, I'd still go for Luna's taxes answer.
Even though, American Soldiers did liberate us in WW2, so technically in that case they'd be sorta right, except that they'd be too old to carry desks around. And if the Nazis had won, we'd probably still have desks. We'd probably also have more glorifying of military/soldiers, for that matter.
Quote from: Triple Zero on September 23, 2011, 08:46:12 AMCan someone explain to me, in a sort of alternative-history kind of fashion, what would have happened if those vets hadn't done their thing and what sequence of events led to your children having the freedom to sit in a classroom or not?
For bonus points, discuss whether these vets might not have done a good enough job at whatever it was they did, because even though your kids have the right to sit in a classroom, apparently you're all still waiting for the other 27 vets to carry a proper education into that classroom as well, right?
It'd have been better if the vets had carried the teacher
out, instead of the desks
in, no?
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 23, 2011, 04:58:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 23, 2011, 04:56:17 PM
Jerry Pournelle is one of my favorite authors. He is a raging conservative by the standards of the 1970s,
Which means he's a Marxist by today's standards, yeah?
Also, very accurate assessment.
From what I gather, he thinks we've all gone insane. He has also stated more than once how glad he is that his vision of the future (75% of the population living in "welfare islands") never materialized, a statement the teabaggers would refute based entirely on their perception of smudgy people.
"Under Nazi rule, the American economy collapses. People riot in the streets. Cities are burnt to the ground. Civilization itself is obliterated.
Only 27 veterans with carpentry tools can save the American education system now."
Quote from: Cain on September 23, 2011, 05:03:33 PM
"Under Nazi rule, the American economy collapses. People riot in the streets. Cities are burnt to the ground. Civilization itself is obliterated.
Only 27 veterans with carpentry tools can save the American education system now."
Incidentally, Cain, the order in which to read Pournelle's series is:
High Justice (not actually part of the series, but it gives some good background)
Birth of Fire (not actually part of the series, but it gives some good background)
Falkenberg's Legion
Prince of Mercenaries
Go Tell The Spartans
Prince of Sparta
Warworld: Codominium
Warworld I
Warworld II
Warworld III
(I do not recomment the subsequent Warworld stand-alone novels, as they aren't Pournelle's, and kind of wreck things)
King David's Spaceship
The Mote in God's Eye
The Gripping Hand
Ah, thank you very much! I digged High Justice, so I'm looking forward to the rest of these.
Quote from: Cain on September 23, 2011, 05:10:30 PM
Ah, thank you very much! I digged High Justice, so I'm looking forward to the rest of these.
Falkenberg's Legion
Prince of Mercenaries
Go Tell The Spartans
Prince of Sparta
...Can be obtained in a single volume titled "The Prince".
Quote from: Cain on September 23, 2011, 05:03:33 PM
"Under Nazi rule, the American economy collapses. People riot in the streets. Cities are burnt to the ground. Civilization itself is obliterated.
Only 27 veterans with carpentry tools can save the American education system now."
:spittake:
Cain, you will particulary enjoy Go Tell The Spartans and Prince of Sparta, due to the heavy use of LIC warfare and the discussions about it (you have to bear in mind that the story is from 30 years ago)...But you have to read the story in order to get the context.
Well, the good thing about LIC is the concepts remain pretty much the same, it's just how it interfaces with the technology that give it the particulers.
Or, as we liked to say in the business - "Low Intensity Conflict: It's finger-LICing good."
I have just checked: I have the single book version, "The Prince". In fact, I seem to have everything on the list up to King David's Spaceship.
Quote from: Cain on September 23, 2011, 05:57:28 PM
Well, the good thing about LIC is the concepts remain pretty much the same, it's just how it interfaces with the technology that give it the particulers.
Or, as we liked to say in the business - "Low Intensity Conflict: It's finger-LICing good."
I have just checked: I have the single book version, "The Prince". In fact, I seem to have everything on the list up to King David's Spaceship.
That's the first book that deals with the Second Empire of Man, which rises from the 600 year dark age following the collapse of the first empire (which in itself forms as a reaction to the collapse of the Codominium and the devastation of Earth). It's probably the best breaking point in the story...IE, if you don't have that and the following books, the story has ended satisfactorily.
The fun part of the second series is, aliens are finally introduced in The Mote in God's Eye, and they are ALIEN. Extremely well done.
I like my aliens to act properly alien. None of this rubber-forehead interbreeding with humans bullshit.
It's a little less reality based, but the current fictional reading I'm doing, the
Malazan Books of the Fallen by Steven Erickson, has some interesting insights. I think he gets the
character of military sappers down perfectly, and the Bridgeburners come across as a crazy-awesome mixture between Napoleon and Colonel Stirling. Speaking of the latter, had you heard about this?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14952939
QuoteA secret World War II diary of the British special forces unit, the SAS, has been kept hidden since it was created in 1946. Now it's being published for the first time to mark the 70th anniversary of the regiment. The BBC has exclusive access to the remarkable piece of history.
Quote from: Cain on September 23, 2011, 07:29:49 PM
I like my aliens to act properly alien. None of this rubber-forehead interbreeding with humans bullshit.
These Aliens are utterly alien in many ways, and very much like us in the ways that would enable them to become a space-faring species.
Quote from: Cain on September 23, 2011, 07:29:49 PM
Speaking of the latter, had you heard about this?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14952939
QuoteA secret World War II diary of the British special forces unit, the SAS, has been kept hidden since it was created in 1946. Now it's being published for the first time to mark the 70th anniversary of the regiment. The BBC has exclusive access to the remarkable piece of history.
Fucking amazing.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 23, 2011, 07:31:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 23, 2011, 07:29:49 PM
I like my aliens to act properly alien. None of this rubber-forehead interbreeding with humans bullshit.
These Aliens are utterly alien in many ways, and very much like us in the ways that would enable them to become a space-faring species.
I remember reading that. Very cool writing.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 23, 2011, 07:38:37 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 23, 2011, 07:31:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 23, 2011, 07:29:49 PM
I like my aliens to act properly alien. None of this rubber-forehead interbreeding with humans bullshit.
These Aliens are utterly alien in many ways, and very much like us in the ways that would enable them to become a space-faring species.
I remember reading that. Very cool writing.
The Mote in God's Eye is also where Pournelle gave us the concept of Crazy Eddie.
I want my free fuckos, so that I can be free. :sad:
Quote from: Nigel on September 23, 2011, 08:24:31 PM
I want my free fuckos, so that I can be free. :sad:
The world is full of them, Nigel. It's just collecting them...
I knew I should have edited that comma in. :lol:
Fuck it.
FREE FUCKOS FOR ALL!
Quote from: Alty on September 23, 2011, 09:08:05 PM
I knew I should have edited that comma in. :lol:
Fuck it.
FREE FUCKOS FOR ALL!
I appear to be overstocked. Haul them away, and they're yours.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 23, 2011, 03:24:36 PM
I'M ONLY GONNA SPIT THIS ONCE: FREEDOM DOES NOT COME FROM SOLDIERS.
NORTH KOREA HAS SOLDIERS. NAZI GERMANY HAD SOLDIERS. TOJO HAD SOLDIERS. STALIN HAD SOLDIERS.
FREEDOM COMES FROM THE COMMON MAN WILLING TO PULL A PATRICK HENRY.
THAT IS ALL. YOU MAY NOW RETURN TO YOUR EMAIL FORWARDS.
May I c/p this to FB with attribution to Doktor Howl?
Quote from: Donald Coyote on September 24, 2011, 04:59:01 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 23, 2011, 03:24:36 PM
I'M ONLY GONNA SPIT THIS ONCE: FREEDOM DOES NOT COME FROM SOLDIERS.
NORTH KOREA HAS SOLDIERS. NAZI GERMANY HAD SOLDIERS. TOJO HAD SOLDIERS. STALIN HAD SOLDIERS.
FREEDOM COMES FROM THE COMMON MAN WILLING TO PULL A PATRICK HENRY.
THAT IS ALL. YOU MAY NOW RETURN TO YOUR EMAIL FORWARDS.
May I c/p this to FB with attribution to Doktor Howl?
Sure.
Quote from: Luna on September 23, 2011, 09:10:31 PM
Quote from: Alty on September 23, 2011, 09:08:05 PM
I knew I should have edited that comma in. :lol:
Fuck it.
FREE FUCKOS FOR ALL!
I appear to be overstocked. Haul them away, and they're yours.
Mom! Luna is hoarding the fuckos again!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2011, 01:35:38 AM
Quote from: Donald Coyote on September 24, 2011, 04:59:01 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 23, 2011, 03:24:36 PM
I'M ONLY GONNA SPIT THIS ONCE: FREEDOM DOES NOT COME FROM SOLDIERS.
NORTH KOREA HAS SOLDIERS. NAZI GERMANY HAD SOLDIERS. TOJO HAD SOLDIERS. STALIN HAD SOLDIERS.
FREEDOM COMES FROM THE COMMON MAN WILLING TO PULL A PATRICK HENRY.
THAT IS ALL. YOU MAY NOW RETURN TO YOUR EMAIL FORWARDS.
May I c/p this to FB with attribution to Doktor Howl?
Sure.
Thanks. Now I wonder how many of my friends are going to be pissed off at me.