I've grown up in a media environment saturated with images of activism from the 60s/70s. They show a passionate and engaged liberal youth. There is a romantic bittersweetness to it. I am in awe of their energy, even if those boomer spags ended up growing out of it in the worst possible way.
We were in a coffee shop (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=28160.msg998669#msg998669), ranting about how ineffective it was, how angering it is that Real Activism once existed in this country, but now it's a memory at best, a "dirty hippie" joke at worst.
An older gentleman had been eavesdropping on us, the edges of the newspaper page crinkled in his fist.
He said that he was one of the guys protesting the war in Vietnam, and don't confuse the ACTUAL political activists with the fucking hippie burnouts. He hated them back then too.
And we got to talking about how we wished there WAS an effective counterculture, we wish there WAS a channel to protest how things are. Today's form of counterculture is what - veganism & hipsters? those spags aren't even going to move the needle - if anything they help keep the needle exactly where it is now by being a totally ineffective challenge to mainstream culture. They make it seem like the only choice is hedonistic consumerism and self-absorbed wankery.
Older Gentleman said "We made a mistake though. The vietnam war ended and we all bought into the system. We raced as quick as we could to get kids and a house and get as numb as possible. We were very naive." He is channeling Hunter S Thompson right there.
"Your generation may not give a shit, but at least you're not buying in."
Everybody I know is frustrated, disenchanted, jaded and cynical. We are thoroughly disgusted. The disgust bleeds on everything. If somebody has a good idea about how to work the controls of this western death contraption, there are only two responses---
---That's bullshit too, or
---That will never work
And deep down, everybody's holding their breath, hoping that something like the 60s will happen again. They WANT to get electrified by that democratic energy. They want to believe that things can change. They're just used to political action being controlled and neutered from every possible angle.
So we've ranted until our throats are sore. And it's gotten very noisy in here. And everybody's chattering.
It was spring in the Middle East. We were reading about the Egyptian revolution, and they were just starting to talk about the domino effect. And I remember thinking, "could it happen here?"
"No," everybody said. "Too much apathy. Too much fear. Too much good programming on TV."
And then it was Winter in America. Thousands of people were shivering in the cold outside of Scott Walker's office. They marched on Madison. They demonstrated that the country isn't fully asleep. People are willing to help each other out of this mess, they are just waiting for the right issue, the right talking points, the right environment.
And the protest didn't work. Scott Walker signed away their collective bargaining rights, and everybody went home pissed off.
But the narrative was different this time. People weren't talking about how deluded the protesters were; they were talking about how the protest could have been more effective. We learned something there. We learned that there's fight in us yet.
And it's the following Winter now. And people have been screeching on Wall Street. And people are starting to talk about gathering in other cities. It's getting bigger. It's waking up.
So to the question - could it happen here?
I think it is.
There are still some kinks in the system. When it kicked off, the Occupy Wall St movement didn't have its shit together. Its incoherence seemed like a big weakness - if they don't have specific objectives or demands, how will they know when to go home?
But the ambiguity serves them in certain ways. The protests are a physical manifestation of outrage. It's almost better that the outrage isn't very well articulated because that gives it broad appeal, makes it easier to relate to. The important thing is that it's authentic, it's REAL OUTRAGE, for REAL REASONS. People smell this, and it reminds them that they are bipeds. And they stop sniffing around in the dirty and stand up a little.
And now I'm starting to think that the next incarnation of the 60's activist movement may actually be here already. One day our Grandkids will ask us about the unrest in 2011-2012, and if we were a part of it. One day, we'll have to tell a jaded younger generation that they have to fight for their world too.
People have strong reasons for being cynical about the current protests. The narrative I prefer right now is that we Americans are just learning about disobedience. We learned it, then we forgot it. And now we've got to start from square 1 again. Last week, the protesters didn't use the right techniques, but they will. The protests didn't have concrete demands, but they will. And more protests means that the feedback loop is shorter - we're learning faster. The things we hate will manifest and everybody most of us will see their true colors.
The groundhog is out of his hole again ---- will he see his shadow this time?
I have a response, but not the time to properly express it. I'll be back later.
I'm loving the pacifist revolutions that are happening right now all around the world, I couldn't believe that pacifists could be that effective.
I guess pacifism isn't as much of a waste of time as i thought.
I think that the rampant consumer culture of the 80s (and the Naughts) and the apathy of the 90s got us in this mess.
I think that the Teabaggers have actually finally worked against their corporate masters' intent. They got to big, too fast, too artificially.
They forgot how many of us were city folk, somewhat educated, and broke as fuck.
I hope this actually goes somewhere.
I think that not having a strong message is exactly what the strength of Occupy is. Sometimes, so much is wrong that it just doesn't matter anymore... you tape some bread to your head and walk into the street screaming.
EVERYTHING IS FUCKED
I think that people are frustrated. None of us are getting heard, and we're all fucking sick and tired of it. We can all join in, because we're all fed up with EVERYTHING BEING FUCKED.
Why pick a cause? Just one? Why limit ourselves? Listen. People don't have jobs, don't have health care, are losing their homes, are paying usury-level interest, pouring all their money into the richest of the rich with no hope of ever just having a chance to relax. People are dying of tooth abscesses and stress and cancer. Homes that cost $15k 20 years ago cost $400k, and you're paying six percent on something you will never really own, ever, even assuming the bank doesn't take it away before you die.
EVERYTHING IS FUCKED
Why the hell not just get up off the couch and walk into the street howling with incoherent frustration? We don't need a message, we don't need a plan. We just want to be heard. Will this affect anything? It's damn fucking unlikely that all by itself, thousands of people fouling up downtown will make any of the 1% say "OK, OK, we'll re-regulate the banking industry and start taxing the shit out of imported goods in order to bring jobs back to the US and raise taxes for the rich and dismantle corporate protection and come up with a health plan that actually works".
But it is possible that thousands of people fouling up downtown will become infectious in the way that mobs do, and that thousands more will join them, and that it will, at some point, turn into a real revolution.
Quote from: Nigel on October 04, 2011, 10:31:33 PM
I think that not having a strong message is exactly what the strength of Occupy is. Sometimes, so much is wrong that it just doesn't matter anymore... you tape some bread to your head and walk into the street screaming.
EVERYTHING IS FUCKED
I think that people are frustrated. None of us are getting heard, and we're all fucking sick and tired of it. We can all join in, because we're all fed up with EVERYTHING BEING FUCKED.
Why pick a cause? Just one? Why limit ourselves? Listen. People don't have jobs, don't have health care, are losing their homes, are paying usury-level interest, pouring all their money into the richest of the rich with no hope of ever just having a chance to relax. People are dying of tooth abscesses and stress and cancer. Homes that cost $15k 20 years ago cost $400k, and you're paying six percent on something you will never really own, ever, even assuming the bank doesn't take it away before you die.
EVERYTHING IS FUCKED
Why the hell not just get up off the couch and walk into the street howling with incoherent frustration? We don't need a message, we don't need a plan. We just want to be heard. Will this affect anything? It's damn fucking unlikely that all by itself, thousands of people fouling up downtown will make any of the 1% say "OK, OK, we'll re-regulate the banking industry and start taxing the shit out of imported goods in order to bring jobs back to the US and raise taxes for the rich and dismantle corporate protection and come up with a health plan that actually works".
But it is possible that thousands of people fouling up downtown will become infectious in the way that mobs do, and that thousands more will join them, and that it will, at some point, turn into a real revolution.
Everything is not fucked.
We have been taught to think that it is, so that we will give up and not bother looking at that which is ACTUALLY fucked.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2011, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 04, 2011, 10:31:33 PM
I think that not having a strong message is exactly what the strength of Occupy is. Sometimes, so much is wrong that it just doesn't matter anymore... you tape some bread to your head and walk into the street screaming.
EVERYTHING IS FUCKED
I think that people are frustrated. None of us are getting heard, and we're all fucking sick and tired of it. We can all join in, because we're all fed up with EVERYTHING BEING FUCKED.
Why pick a cause? Just one? Why limit ourselves? Listen. People don't have jobs, don't have health care, are losing their homes, are paying usury-level interest, pouring all their money into the richest of the rich with no hope of ever just having a chance to relax. People are dying of tooth abscesses and stress and cancer. Homes that cost $15k 20 years ago cost $400k, and you're paying six percent on something you will never really own, ever, even assuming the bank doesn't take it away before you die.
EVERYTHING IS FUCKED
Why the hell not just get up off the couch and walk into the street howling with incoherent frustration? We don't need a message, we don't need a plan. We just want to be heard. Will this affect anything? It's damn fucking unlikely that all by itself, thousands of people fouling up downtown will make any of the 1% say "OK, OK, we'll re-regulate the banking industry and start taxing the shit out of imported goods in order to bring jobs back to the US and raise taxes for the rich and dismantle corporate protection and come up with a health plan that actually works".
But it is possible that thousands of people fouling up downtown will become infectious in the way that mobs do, and that thousands more will join them, and that it will, at some point, turn into a real revolution.
Everything is not fucked.
We have been taught to think that it is, so that we will give up and not bother looking at that which is ACTUALLY fucked.
I consider the current trend in distribution of wealth to essentially qualify as "everything". As far as I can tell most of the other problems flow from that. So the question is, what has to happen to fix it?
Quote from: Nigel on October 04, 2011, 10:48:15 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2011, 10:32:42 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 04, 2011, 10:31:33 PM
I think that not having a strong message is exactly what the strength of Occupy is. Sometimes, so much is wrong that it just doesn't matter anymore... you tape some bread to your head and walk into the street screaming.
EVERYTHING IS FUCKED
I think that people are frustrated. None of us are getting heard, and we're all fucking sick and tired of it. We can all join in, because we're all fed up with EVERYTHING BEING FUCKED.
Why pick a cause? Just one? Why limit ourselves? Listen. People don't have jobs, don't have health care, are losing their homes, are paying usury-level interest, pouring all their money into the richest of the rich with no hope of ever just having a chance to relax. People are dying of tooth abscesses and stress and cancer. Homes that cost $15k 20 years ago cost $400k, and you're paying six percent on something you will never really own, ever, even assuming the bank doesn't take it away before you die.
EVERYTHING IS FUCKED
Why the hell not just get up off the couch and walk into the street howling with incoherent frustration? We don't need a message, we don't need a plan. We just want to be heard. Will this affect anything? It's damn fucking unlikely that all by itself, thousands of people fouling up downtown will make any of the 1% say "OK, OK, we'll re-regulate the banking industry and start taxing the shit out of imported goods in order to bring jobs back to the US and raise taxes for the rich and dismantle corporate protection and come up with a health plan that actually works".
But it is possible that thousands of people fouling up downtown will become infectious in the way that mobs do, and that thousands more will join them, and that it will, at some point, turn into a real revolution.
Everything is not fucked.
We have been taught to think that it is, so that we will give up and not bother looking at that which is ACTUALLY fucked.
I consider the current trend in distribution of wealth to essentially qualify as "everything". As far as I can tell most of the other problems flow from that. So the question is, what has to happen to fix it?
Banker, etc + light pole.
I went to the Vigil for Peace in D.C. as soon as I got out of the army. It was 1972.
Quote from: Cramulus on October 04, 2011, 08:49:41 PM
I've grown up in a media environment saturated with images of activism from the 60s/70s. They show a passionate and engaged liberal youth. There is a romantic bittersweetness to it. I am in awe of their energy, even if those boomer spags ended up growing out of it in the worst possible way.
We were in a coffee shop (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=28160.msg998669#msg998669), ranting about how ineffective it was, how angering it is that Real Activism once existed in this country, but now it's a memory at best, a "dirty hippie" joke at worst.
An older gentleman had been eavesdropping on us, the edges of the newspaper page crinkled in his fist.
He said that he was one of the guys protesting the war in Vietnam, and don't confuse the ACTUAL political activists with the fucking hippie burnouts. He hated them back then too.
And we got to talking about how we wished there WAS an effective counterculture, we wish there WAS a channel to protest how things are. Today's form of counterculture is what - veganism & hipsters? those spags aren't even going to move the needle - if anything they help keep the needle exactly where it is now by being a totally ineffective challenge to mainstream culture. They make it seem like the only choice is hedonistic consumerism and self-absorbed wankery.
Older Gentleman said "We made a mistake though. The vietnam war ended and we all bought into the system. We raced as quick as we could to get kids and a house and get as numb as possible. We were very naive." He is channeling Hunter S Thompson right there.
"Your generation may not give a shit, but at least you're not buying in."
Everybody I know is frustrated, disenchanted, jaded and cynical. We are thoroughly disgusted. The disgust bleeds on everything. If somebody has a good idea about how to work the controls of this western death contraption, there are only two responses---
---That's bullshit too, or
---That will never work
And deep down, everybody's holding their breath, hoping that something like the 60s will happen again. They WANT to get electrified by that democratic energy. They want to believe that things can change. They're just used to political action being controlled and neutered from every possible angle.
So we've ranted until our throats are sore. And it's gotten very noisy in here. And everybody's chattering.
It was spring in the Middle East. We were reading about the Egyptian revolution, and they were just starting to talk about the domino effect. And I remember thinking, "could it happen here?"
"No," everybody said. "Too much apathy. Too much fear. Too much good programming on TV."
And then it was Winter in America. Thousands of people were shivering in the cold outside of Scott Walker's office. They marched on Madison. They demonstrated that the country isn't fully asleep. People are willing to help each other out of this mess, they are just waiting for the right issue, the right talking points, the right environment.
And the protest didn't work. Scott Walker signed away their collective bargaining rights, and everybody went home pissed off.
But the narrative was different this time. People weren't talking about how deluded the protesters were; they were talking about how the protest could have been more effective. We learned something there. We learned that there's fight in us yet.
And it's the following Winter now. And people have been screeching on Wall Street. And people are starting to talk about gathering in other cities. It's getting bigger. It's waking up.
So to the question - could it happen here?
I think it is.
There are still some kinks in the system. When it kicked off, the Occupy Wall St movement didn't have its shit together. Its incoherence seemed like a big weakness - if they don't have specific objectives or demands, how will they know when to go home?
But the ambiguity serves them in certain ways. The protests are a physical manifestation of outrage. It's almost better that the outrage isn't very well articulated because that gives it broad appeal, makes it easier to relate to. The important thing is that it's authentic, it's REAL OUTRAGE, for REAL REASONS. People smell this, and it reminds them that they are bipeds. And they stop sniffing around in the dirty and stand up a little.
And now I'm starting to think that the next incarnation of the 60's activist movement may actually be here already. One day our Grandkids will ask us about the unrest in 2011-2012, and if we were a part of it. One day, we'll have to tell a jaded younger generation that they have to fight for their world too.
People have strong reasons for being cynical about the current protests. The narrative I prefer right now is that we Americans are just learning about disobedience. We learned it, then we forgot it. And now we've got to start from square 1 again. Last week, the protesters didn't use the right techniques, but they will. The protests didn't have concrete demands, but they will. And more protests means that the feedback loop is shorter - we're learning faster. The things we hate will manifest and everybody most of us will see their true colors.
The groundhog is out of his hole again ---- will he see his shadow this time?
Fantastic post.
See I myself cannot articulate what I feel in the written word very well. (as yous I'm sure have noticed). Thanks for taking the time to post Cramulus.
So-Having a chance to get the fuck out of my slumber and DO something physical for Me is almost Euphoric. Sure I enjoy the reading, expressing through art, etc But this Getting Up Stance (for Me at least) is good and will lead to a world wakeup. Maybe. *hopes*
And I agree with Nigel -there really is not a clear message and I also agree this could be good. (actually the S.O. and I were speaking about this same thing the other day, it is better there is no one demand/goal/whatnot-We are here because you brought us here was our final conclusion and that there is NO One Right Answer)
Too much shit thrown down our throats and we have gotten full. Now we are ready to explode, so as not to be full any-longer.
We don't even care what explodes out of us-just that it does.
:|
Quote from: Nigel on October 04, 2011, 10:31:33 PM
...it is possible that thousands of people fouling up downtown will become infectious in the way that mobs do, and that thousands more will join them, and that it will, at some point, turn into a real revolution.
I was saying this, more or less, to some friends last night.
Quote from: Dimocritus on October 08, 2011, 07:11:58 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 04, 2011, 10:31:33 PM
...it is possible that thousands of people fouling up downtown will become infectious in the way that mobs do, and that thousands more will join them, and that it will, at some point, turn into a real revolution.
I was saying this, more or less, to some friends last night.
:cheers:
Here's hoping!
When the protests in Madison happened, I was staying with my friend and his family. All of them went to Madison to join the protests. I stayed behind. I caught a lot of flack, and was called everything from lethargic to stupid to overly pessimistic, because I didn't really believe anything would come of it. A month later, I felt justified, as it seemed nothing was accomplished. Now, with all the shit happening all over the place, I feel I owe my friend and his family an apology. It looks like something was accomplished indeed, maybe not the specific demand they were protesting for, but something. The constant mentions of the Madison protests as a catalyst, as well as the support shown from other nations, has made me start truly paying attention.
Next time there is activity of this sort in my area, I wont be staying home being pessimistic.
Quote from: trix on October 08, 2011, 08:58:22 PM
When the protests in Madison happened, I was staying with my friend and his family. All of them went to Madison to join the protests. I stayed behind. I caught a lot of flack, and was called everything from lethargic to stupid to overly pessimistic, because I didn't really believe anything would come of it. A month later, I felt justified, as it seemed nothing was accomplished. Now, with all the shit happening all over the place, I feel I owe my friend and his family an apology. It looks like something was accomplished indeed, maybe not the specific demand they were protesting for, but something. The constant mentions of the Madison protests as a catalyst, as well as the support shown from other nations, has made me start truly paying attention.
Next time there is activity of this sort in my area, I wont be staying home being pessimistic.
Good!
I think it's exactly that effect which is galvanizing more and more people to join the protests.
:mittens:, Cram.
I have the very same feeling and impression. It might be coming from a half-American family in a relatively Americanized country, but I definitely know that whole looking back to the sixties thing.
And what you say about Occupy applies just as well to the "revolutions" further underway, in Israel and in Europe. (The Arab countries are a somewhat different story, but the movements are all absolutely connected.) People don't all get what the protestors are protesting exactly, but that vagueness gives this kind of movement tremendous power. The July movement in Israel would never have made it anywhere if it had started with a more concentrated message, and they eventually got away with setting up an alternative committee of experts for proposing real solutions to societal problems, even while the government created an official, toothless committee for the same purpose.
I'm not saying that movement will succeed, unfortunately Israel has some other very serious problems to tackle, but all of these movements seem to take off more quickly and make more of a splash the less focussed they are in the beginning. The Spanish March 15 movement started off pretty vague and crystalized after a few months, at which point it was exporting its manifesto across Europe. Here in Germany, where the manifesto was ready and the message was clear from the start, the movement is still very small, in the same period of time as the Israeli movement managed to have three multi-100K protests and peak at 450K (the biggest protest in the state's history.) Everywhere people are annoyed at the incoherence, but everywhere people who have visited a fixed protest site (i.e. a tent camp as opposed to a square where protests are held) have a very different perspective and are basically in awe of the energy, atmosphere and pure potential of the movement. Even following the happenings on a virtual but relatively intimate channel such as Twitter or YouTube can turn people on this way.
When all you hear are the filtered summaries through the news or second-hand reports, you only see how diffused the movement is, how incoherent it is, how small it is, how apparently insane some of the protestors are. When you're there, you filter out the crazies (like you do in any urban situation) and just bathe in the magnitude of what you are experiencing. It makes your imagination run wild. It's inspiring. And that's the key, in the end: if the movement creates spaces people want to be in, if the movement leaves a lasting impression, if the movement creates new experiences of a rare breed, it can't truly fail. Protests die out eventually because they are difficult to sustain. Movements are always doomed to splinter and branch out, separating into more focussed sub-parts but losing the initial unity. But when they work like this, they are also bound to succeed, one way or another. Israel may conceivably be a theocracy or a totalitarian nationalist state a year from now*. But this summer has already told us who to look out for in the resistance, two years from now, or five, or ten. The only way we can fail completely is if we stop caring, or stop imagining and doing new things.
*That is, in a more visible and consistent way than it already is just those things.
Good reading, cram. Thanks for posting this!
more stuff to think about - on decades and time from Utah Phillips : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxyhjhtS1KA&feature=related
"That whole idea of decade packaging, things don't happen that way...
... that packaging of time is a journalistic contrivance they use to trivialise and dismiss important events and important ideas"
Quote from: VERBL on October 08, 2011, 10:46:24 PM
When all you hear are the filtered summaries through the news or second-hand reports, you only see how diffused the movement is, how incoherent it is, how small it is, how apparently insane some of the protestors are.
Yes! And when official history is made up of things like news summaries, you only see how precise The Movement was, the One Thing that sparked it all, the One Point people wanted to make, the Iconic Image and how (of course) it ended. Women's Lib happened with a burning bra and some academic women. The Anti-War movement happened when some middle class white woman dressed funny and put a daisy down a gun once upon a time. Civil Rights was about black people and buses. Turning histories into stories makes tidy ends of imaginary single-string events, when it's all ongoing and much, much messier. And much more interesting. :lulz:
:cheers: