Allow me to preface this by stating, it is not my intention with this thread to cause intense drama. I am simply seeking opinions from those that are more versed in moral philosophy then me. Feel free to reply with links to material that covers this if you'd prefer, I wouldn't know where to look so I'd appreciate that as well.
The issue is this: My roommate and I were having a somewhat philosophical conversation, and at some point she stated something I've heard before, "I don't believe that my opinion is more important or relevant than anyone else's." I told her that was false, and that I could prove it. My argument was thus, "Imagine you were walking down the sidewalk, and ahead of you was a man walking next to a young girl of around 6 years of age. Suddenly, with seemingly no provocation, the man turns and punches the little girl hard in the face, causing her to cry and collapse on the ground. Then he starts kicking her. Witnessing this event, would you step in and attempt to defend the little girl?"
Her response, predictably, was "Of course I would! What a stupid question, you would too."
I then explained that the man must have felt justified for his actions, his opinion at the time, excluding the possibility of irrational anger or mental instability, must have been that hurting the child is what he should do. Your opinion (and mine) is that there is no justification for hurting a child in this manner. We would act, believing our opinion to be of more importance, or significance then the man's opinion.
The argument continued from there, but I was unsuccessful in getting my point across.
Thinking about it further, on my own, I begin to wonder... at what point is it ok, or not ok, to consider my own opinion more valid than that of somebody else? If I decided to swat my kid's ass for wrongdoing, and some self-righteous prick got all "that's wrong!!" on me, I'd ignore him and continue to raise my child in ways I feel are appropriate. Yet, if my physical punishment crossed the line into abusive, the previously mentioned prick would be correct, and it would be wrong of me. I believe.
Hmm, I guess I don't really have a point here. It seems to be an unsolvable conundrum. How can one recognize when the opinion of another is superior or more correct then one's own?
Thoughts?
(Edited to fix a typo)
:troll:
I don't have an opinion. WE have an opinion. And it is superior...Not because we are more talented, or generally cleverer than fuck, but because we're RIGHT and they're WRONG, and that's really all there is to it.
If they are better at rationalizing an action from the viewpoint of a shared ideology, then their opinion is superior.
If they have a different ideology, then they are WRONG.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 09, 2011, 05:25:55 AM
:troll:
8) :tinfoilhat:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 05:44:20 AM
I don't have an opinion. WE have an opinion. And it is superior...Not because we are more talented, or generally cleverer than fuck, but because we're RIGHT and they're WRONG, and that's really all there is to it.
:D
Who is this we? The royal we? Discordians? Doktors? Bipeds?
Quote from: Joh'Nyx on October 09, 2011, 05:58:10 AM
If they are better at rationalizing an action from the viewpoint of a shared ideology, then their opinion is superior.
If they have a different ideology, then they are WRONG.
Ah but, what about the case when you cannot know their ideology and whether or not it is shared? If you saw a guy beating some child harshly, you can't exactly ask his ideology and reasoning, you are left with a choice to either attempt to stop him or no. Only later can you discover the child was actually an alien in disguise, planning a global takeover.
Opinions are entirely subjective, which makes this a typical Philosophy 122: Ethics class.
In general, the more informed and objective opinion is considered the superior opinion, and the measure of ethics is usually that which causes the least harm to the well-being and freedom of other people.
Quote from: trix on October 09, 2011, 07:10:34 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 05:44:20 AM
I don't have an opinion. WE have an opinion. And it is superior...Not because we are more talented, or generally cleverer than fuck, but because we're RIGHT and they're WRONG, and that's really all there is to it.
:D
Who is this we? The royal we? Discordians? Doktors? Bipeds?
Whoever considers it wrong if grown men get away with kicking little girls.
yes it's a bit circular, but that's really how it works.
check a serious Philosophy Ethics class if you ever get the chance. You're in uni IIRC, I was too and even though I studied Computer Science, I'm really glad I took the chance to take that class on Ethics. I also took another one about general overview of philosophy, which was interesting, but nowhere
near as useful as the one on Ethics.
thing is, your questions about what opinions on what is right and what is wrong, there are many different answers to. Kantianism, utilitarianism, "because God says so", "because I say so", "because it is virtuous", etc etc.
Funny thing is how nearly all of them come to the same conclusion on the matter of kicking little girls.
The other funny thing is how they're all wrong, if you really get into the details of it. This is an important lesson in Ethics because it allows you to avoid that sort of discussion, if possible.
IMO utilitarianism and virtue ethics are the best ones. But the former requires too much self-sacrifice because it inevitably makes you the sucker in a world where most other people don't play utilitarian, and the latter is kinda subjective and not very well defined.
Now that's about questions whether opinions on "right and wrong" are more important than others.
In the
general case, however, opinions on other matters than whether something is right or wrong, some opinions
are strictly better than others. I refer you to the Barstool Experiment.
:barstool:
Right and wrong are not constants. What's right at the time, might be wrong ten minutes later. That's why as a species we reserve the right to change our minds at any given time. Look back at the mistakes you've made. How many of them did you believe were wrong at the time? (Hopefully not many) We believe that we act rightly most of the time. Even if we subsequently turn out to be wrong. This process is called "Learning".
ETA: And it's only as hard as we make it, ourselves.
Quote from: trix on October 09, 2011, 07:10:34 AM
Ah but, what about the case when you cannot know their ideology and whether or not it is shared? If you saw a guy beating some child harshly, you can't exactly ask his ideology and reasoning, you are left with a choice to either attempt to stop him or no. Only later can you discover the child was actually an alien in disguise, planning a global takeover.
In a general sense, you have to talk/argue with the other person to find out.
In the example case you show of a grown man punching a child in the face, *I* would intervene, because:
1. A child doesnt have full cognitive abilities to make a decision, so i tolerate from them a much wider range of actions than i would from an adult.
2. A child cant defend itself, so its assault/battery on a defenseless person.
By the way, the underlying argument you are going for is nihilistic, it posits "not taking action unless all information is known", and one doesnt know all the information ever.
troll is troll, or for reals?
Quote from: trix on October 09, 2011, 07:10:34 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 05:44:20 AM
I don't have an opinion. WE have an opinion. And it is superior...Not because we are more talented, or generally cleverer than fuck, but because we're RIGHT and they're WRONG, and that's really all there is to it.
:D
Who is this we? The royal we? Discordians? Doktors? Bipeds?
Anyone who isn't "they". You. Me. Nigel. Captain Kangaroo. That nice old man that used to live down the street. Try this simple test: Turn on your TV and count the number of actual news broadcasting companies. There's 6, for the
whole world. Now try googling, the way you used to, and see if you get the same results, or things that are more "trending" than what you
thought you wanted to see when you logged on. That's them. We're us, and our job in life is to not become them, or let them push granny down the stairs for her own good. They tell you WHAT to think, we just hope you think at all.
Who are we?
Opinions are meaningless actions are all that counts.
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2011, 06:38:34 PM
Opinions are meaningless actions are all that counts.
So we should push Stephen Hawking in front of a train?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2011, 06:38:34 PM
Opinions are meaningless actions are all that counts.
So we should push Stephen Hawking in front of a train?
He'd only assassinate us three years earlier with a neutrino gun if we tried.
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2011, 06:46:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2011, 06:38:34 PM
Opinions are meaningless actions are all that counts.
So we should push Stephen Hawking in front of a train?
He'd only assassinate us three years earlier with a neutrino gun if we tried.
:lulz:
Dear trix,
You are stupid and therefore your opinion is automatically irrelevant. Have a pleasant week.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 11, 2011, 08:35:48 PM
Dear trix,
You are stupid and therefore your opinion is automatically irrelevant. Have a pleasant week.
Will do, thanks! :)
That was a really stupid, and I'm saying this knowing it was you that said it, REALLY STUPID example, no matter what point you were trying to get at.
Do not reply to my post, I just wanted you to know how disgusted I am that you are okay with trying to justify some dude putting a beat-down on a little girl, hypothetical or not.
Opinions are subjective.
Crimes of passion are, by definition, not justified or thought out like you implied.
A discussion of moral philosophy? Is that what you want?
Also I like Nigel's and BadBeast's posts
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 03:28:41 AM
That was a really stupid, and I'm saying this knowing it was you that said it, REALLY STUPID example, no matter what point you were trying to get at.
Do not reply to my post, I just wanted you to know how disgusted I am that you are okay with trying to justify some dude putting a beat-down on a little girl, hypothetical or not.
:lulz: i c wut u did ther
but but, don't you get it? IM the little girl, being hurt by the big bad man. Wont you protect me?
Quote from: Epimetheus on October 12, 2011, 07:17:46 AM
Opinions are subjective.
Crimes of passion are, by definition, not justified or thought out like you implied.
A discussion of moral philosophy? Is that what you want?
Also I like Nigel's and BadBeast's posts
I suppose that is what I want. What about on a bigger scale? This conversation with my roommate derived from arguments of culture. When is it okay for one society or community to impose their opinion or definition of self-righteousness upon another? How much pressure is okay and for how much of an ethic breach?
On one side, most here probably agree that invading china because they censor the internet is a bad idea. Except possibly Dok. His opinion on things is rather unpredictable.
On the other, if a small nation were practicing ritual sacrifice is it okay to pressure them? Economic pressure, bad press, flipping them off, dropping the big one, how far is okay?
Obviously solid definitions aren't going to happen, but what kind of yard (or meter for you
other people) stick do different people use?
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 09, 2011, 11:27:23 AM
Quote from: trix on October 09, 2011, 07:10:34 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 05:44:20 AM
I don't have an opinion. WE have an opinion. And it is superior...Not because we are more talented, or generally cleverer than fuck, but because we're RIGHT and they're WRONG, and that's really all there is to it.
:D
Who is this we? The royal we? Discordians? Doktors? Bipeds?
Whoever considers it wrong if grown men get away with kicking little girls.
yes it's a bit circular, but that's really how it works.
check a serious Philosophy Ethics class if you ever get the chance. You're in uni IIRC, I was too and even though I studied Computer Science, I'm really glad I took the chance to take that class on Ethics. I also took another one about general overview of philosophy, which was interesting, but nowhere near as useful as the one on Ethics.
thing is, your questions about what opinions on what is right and what is wrong, there are many different answers to. Kantianism, utilitarianism, "because God says so", "because I say so", "because it is virtuous", etc etc.
Funny thing is how nearly all of them come to the same conclusion on the matter of kicking little girls.
The other funny thing is how they're all wrong, if you really get into the details of it. This is an important lesson in Ethics because it allows you to avoid that sort of discussion, if possible.
IMO utilitarianism and virtue ethics are the best ones. But the former requires too much self-sacrifice because it inevitably makes you the sucker in a world where most other people don't play utilitarian, and the latter is kinda subjective and not very well defined.
Now that's about questions whether opinions on "right and wrong" are more important than others.
In the general case, however, opinions on other matters than whether something is right or wrong, some opinions are strictly better than others. I refer you to the Barstool Experiment.
:barstool:
Trip's post is pretty damn good, really.
However, I will say that I do not believe that utilitarianism is a viable moral philosophy. If you want to discuss this, then lets discuss it without hypothetical examples; examples are good for some things, but in morality and ethics, they muddy the water awfully. You want to discuss laws of action. That's fine, you'll find a million and one different ways to proceed, but the first step is to lay out a logical grounding for your position. There are always edge cases, and those need to be debated and considered on their individual merit. But although you
can spend a lot of time pondering specifics, it isn't useful. The most useful thing that can come out of ethics is to codify a set of principles for yourself which you then take forward. (As most people are surprisingly willing to violate their principles, however, this is only arguably useful at all.)
Mine is pretty simple. I believe that you can define what is right and wrong on an individual level by considering whether you would be okay with the action being carried out on you. The key consideration here is to take into account the preferences of all individuals involved. On the simplest basis, then, if everyone involved is able to consent and consents to it, it is fine. The fuzzy areas in individual actions are largely parenting (where children cannot consent due to their age and the unformed basis of their sense of self) and the mentally and physically handicapped (where the limitations are fairly obvious).
I do not believe, on an individual level, that it is necessary to consider anything else. Individual ethical actions are a very personal thing, and come down to the principles that individuals hold most important. Trying to codify them rapidly becomes a horrible mess, so it is best to place the right of the individual to think for themselves and have the agency to carry out their preferences above other concerns, such as the 'rights of the many' or the fostering of particular ethical precepts. Utilitarianism naturally calls out to a broader social context, which I do not believe works in individual relations, and can fall down as Trip says when it comes to asking people to make sacrifices. Virtue ethics relies on a codified set of principles which will never be agreed on by all people.
There are problems with scaling this up from individuals to societies. For the rules governing societies, I turn to John Rawls, and particularly his first text 'A Theory of Justice'. There is no reason why the rules governing individual relations should be the same as rules governing societies. Societies need to proceed from a basis of a social contract, which allows individuals to live together pursuing their own lives with minimal interference, whilst ensuring that the right of those individuals to pursue their own lives is not infringed by the pursuits of their fellows. If you are genuinely interested in the subject, I consider Rawls' work to be pretty much the best there is. I spent a good year reading other social texts and comparing/contrasting to his. The theory isn't perfect, because no theories are, and implementing all of his suggestions in practice is likely impossible. But from a theoretical basis, it is a lot more practical than most and provides a clear and compelling argument. Obviously, IMO.
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on October 12, 2011, 09:07:15 AMHowever, I will say that I do not believe that utilitarianism is a viable moral philosophy. If you want to discuss this--
I believe I was pretty explicit about that I did not :)
QuoteMine is pretty simple. I believe that you can define what is right and wrong on an individual level by considering whether you would be okay with the action being carried out on you.
That sounds a lot like the Categorical Imperative, aka Kantianism.
And where utilitarianism has examples where it is merely "not viable", the Categorical Imperative,
"do unto others ..", has many situations in which I, personally, believe it is
plain wrong to refrain from a certain action just because I wouldn't be okay with it being carried out on me. A bit of the "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the sort of person I preach to" kind of thing.
QuoteVirtue ethics relies on a codified set of principles which will never be agreed on by all people.
I don't see the problem with that, actually.
For example:
People are going do things that are wrong, otherwise what's the point of distinguishing right from wrong? Some of those people will believe they are in the right. Except they are wrong. So you smash their skulls in because that's the virtuous thing to do. Except when they are little girls, because that would be wrong.
It is really not that complex.
Err, sorry Trip, the discuss comment was aimed at Trix. I could have been more clear there. :oops:
I found the moral ideas of Camus useful; there are no moral absolutes, just measurable consequences. The consequence of allowing the girl to get beat down is, well, she gets beaten down. So it would be ratiOnal to prevent the man.
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 08:10:22 AM
On one side, most here probably agree that invading china because they censor the internet is a bad idea. Except possibly Dok. His opinion on things is rather unpredictable.
No, it's very predictable. China is China's problem. And we can hardly bitch that THEY censor information, can we? :lulz:
Trix, I've totally figured out what's wrong with you. It makes so much sense now. You're Canadian, aren't you?
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 04:16:51 PM
Trix, I've totally figured out what's wrong with you. It makes so much sense now. You're Canadian, aren't you?
He's close enough. Canada bleeds down into the Northern states, which explains Maine, Vermont, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Washington.
Hell, upstate New York is just a piece of Ontario that broke off and got some poo on it.
I don't think we can blame them for the Dakotas, though.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 04:20:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 04:16:51 PM
Trix, I've totally figured out what's wrong with you. It makes so much sense now. You're Canadian, aren't you?
He's close enough. Canada bleeds down into the Northern states, which explains Maine, Vermont, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Washington.
Hell, upstate New York is just a piece of Ontario that broke off and got some poo on it.
I don't think we can blame them for the Dakotas, though.
That makes perfect sense. Canadian bastard infecting PD with Canada germs and whatnot. :argh!:
ETA: Well, at least he's not Welsh....
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 04:22:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 04:20:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 04:16:51 PM
Trix, I've totally figured out what's wrong with you. It makes so much sense now. You're Canadian, aren't you?
He's close enough. Canada bleeds down into the Northern states, which explains Maine, Vermont, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Washington.
Hell, upstate New York is just a piece of Ontario that broke off and got some poo on it.
I don't think we can blame them for the Dakotas, though.
That makes perfect sense. Canadian bastard infecting PD with Canada germs and whatnot. :argh!:
ETA: Well, at least he's not Welsh....
As far as you know.
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
With the additional benefit of getting laid by smelly trustafarian chicks.
My philosophical discussions at university never got me laid. I must be bad at philosophy. :sad:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 04:27:45 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 04:22:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 04:20:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 04:16:51 PM
Trix, I've totally figured out what's wrong with you. It makes so much sense now. You're Canadian, aren't you?
He's close enough. Canada bleeds down into the Northern states, which explains Maine, Vermont, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Washington.
Hell, upstate New York is just a piece of Ontario that broke off and got some poo on it.
I don't think we can blame them for the Dakotas, though.
That makes perfect sense. Canadian bastard infecting PD with Canada germs and whatnot. :argh!:
ETA: Well, at least he's not Welsh....
As far as you know.
:scared:
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on October 12, 2011, 04:45:35 PM
My philosophical discussions at university never got me laid. I must be bad at philosophy. :sad:
That's because you are in England, where "philosophy" means - to most people - "how long should my 2x4 be, when I beat in someone's head for no apparent reason."
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 04:48:04 PM
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on October 12, 2011, 04:45:35 PM
My philosophical discussions at university never got me laid. I must be bad at philosophy. :sad:
That's because you are in England, where "philosophy" means - to most people - "how long should my 2x4 be, when I beat in someone's head for no apparent reason?".
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 04:16:51 PM
Trix, I've totally figured out what's wrong with you. It makes so much sense now. You're Canadian, aren't you?
I'm from Wisconsin, we are all a little cheesy.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 04:20:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 04:16:51 PM
Trix, I've totally figured out what's wrong with you. It makes so much sense now. You're Canadian, aren't you?
He's close enough. Canada bleeds down into the Northern states, which explains Maine, Vermont, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Washington.
Hell, upstate New York is just a piece of Ontario that broke off and got some poo on it.
I don't think we can blame them for the Dakotas, though.
:lulz:
Four people are riding in a train boxcar together, a guy from Wisconsin, a guy from Idaho, a guy from Florida, and a guy from Illinois. A ways down the track, the guy from Idaho suddenly stands up, picks up a sack of potatoes he was carrying, and throws it from the train.
The guy from Wisconsin asks, "Why did you do that!?"
"In Idaho, we have so many potatoes we don't know what to do with them."
Hearing this, the guy from Florida stands up, and throws a bag of oranges from the train.
"In Florida, we have so many oranges, we don't know what to do with them."
Getting the idea, the guy from Wisconsin stands up, and throws the guy from Illinois off of the train.
-
That's a rather old joke here, so sorry if you've heard it. My point is simple, we are what we are not as a result of Canadian influence, but as a result of hating Illinois so much we get a little ridiculous just to separate ourselves from those heathens.
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
I discuss it with them too. However, most of them speak first and think later, leading to some rather frustratingly dim-witted conversations. Besides, the fact that many of you are well past these elementary concepts and discussions is why I am interested in your input, as you'll have that older, wiser perspective. In theory, at least.
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 04:55:43 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
I discuss it with them too. However, most of them speak first and think later, leading to some rather frustratingly dim-witted conversations. Besides, the fact that many of you are well past these elementary concepts and discussions is why I am interested in your input, as you'll have that older, wiser perspective. In theory, at least.
Instead, what you find is that we find your topics tedious and dimwitted, and are irritated and frustrated that you expect us to have actual conversations about something that most of us dissected and digested years ago.
Listen, if we wanted to be elementary school teachers, we could do that. Or we could be on Fizzy Grizzly, schooling the little 'uns. But we aren't, and we have no obligation to provide you with training wheels. Take that philosophy 122 class, that's what it's for. Seriously.
Here, read a book:
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Ethics-Peter-Singer/dp/0521707684/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318435873&sr=8-1
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
Well, at least if he took an ethics class, he would be likely to find other wankers who are into philosophical wankery.
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 05:15:46 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
Well, at least if he took an ethics class, he would be likely to find other wankers who are into philosophical wankery.
Agreed.
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 05:13:28 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 04:55:43 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
I discuss it with them too. However, most of them speak first and think later, leading to some rather frustratingly dim-witted conversations. Besides, the fact that many of you are well past these elementary concepts and discussions is why I am interested in your input, as you'll have that older, wiser perspective. In theory, at least.
Instead, what you find is that we find your topics tedious and dimwitted, and are irritated and frustrated that you expect us to have actual conversations about something that most of us dissected and digested years ago.
Listen, if we wanted to be elementary school teachers, we could do that. Or we could be on Fizzy Grizzly, schooling the little 'uns. But we aren't, and we have no obligation to provide you with training wheels. Take that philosophy 122 class, that's what it's for. Seriously.
Here, read a book:
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Ethics-Peter-Singer/dp/0521707684/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318435873&sr=8-1
I put it out there not expecting anything. I put it out there
in case anyone felt like discussing it. I was under the impression both that PD had people of all shapes and sizes (thus, there might be other college level people that
are interested in studying it), and that those who aren't interested in discussing it would simply click a different thread. It was not my intention to waste your time, but not
everyone has had these conversations to death, and I figured that some of those people who have not might be here as well.
Unless I made a serious error in judgement, and PD is only for old farts that have already discussed every topic I might encounter in college.
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
I am flattered by the crush you and Phox have on me, and I find you both to be pleasant, brilliant, and insightful people as well. Perhaps we should exchange phone numbers?
A/S/L?
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
I am flattered by the crush you and Phox have on me, and I find you both to be pleasant, brilliant, and insightful people as well. Perhaps we should exchange phone numbers?
A/S/L?
This thread delivers.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
I am flattered by the crush you and Phox have on me, and I find you both to be pleasant, brilliant, and insightful people as well. Perhaps we should exchange phone numbers?
A/S/L?
This thread delivers.
What IS it with the "please shit on me" attention whores these days?
They have 900 numbers for that. Seriously.
Quote from: Luna on October 12, 2011, 06:01:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
I am flattered by the crush you and Phox have on me, and I find you both to be pleasant, brilliant, and insightful people as well. Perhaps we should exchange phone numbers?
A/S/L?
This thread delivers.
What IS it with the "please shit on me" attention whores these days?
They have 900 numbers for that. Seriously.
To be fair, a few people are riding him like a :hosrie:
On the other hand, he's responding.
:monkeydance:
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 05:13:28 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 04:55:43 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
I discuss it with them too. However, most of them speak first and think later, leading to some rather frustratingly dim-witted conversations. Besides, the fact that many of you are well past these elementary concepts and discussions is why I am interested in your input, as you'll have that older, wiser perspective. In theory, at least.
Instead, what you find is that we find your topics tedious and dimwitted, and are irritated and frustrated that you expect us to have actual conversations about something that most of us dissected and digested years ago.
Listen, if we wanted to be elementary school teachers, we could do that. Or we could be on Fizzy Grizzly, schooling the little 'uns. But we aren't, and we have no obligation to provide you with training wheels. Take that philosophy 122 class, that's what it's for. Seriously.
Here, read a book:
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Ethics-Peter-Singer/dp/0521707684/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318435873&sr=8-1
I put it out there not expecting anything. I put it out there in case anyone felt like discussing it. I was under the impression both that PD had people of all shapes and sizes (thus, there might be other college level people that are interested in studying it), and that those who aren't interested in discussing it would simply click a different thread. It was not my intention to waste your time, but not everyone has had these conversations to death, and I figured that some of those people who have not might be here as well.
Unless I made a serious error in judgement, and PD is only for old farts that have already discussed every topic I might encounter in college.
You're seriously underestimating the brainpower here. It's not that discussions of philosophy aren't interesting, it's just that overall, the board does have a bit of a higher standard, and I, for one, like it that way. If you're expecting mixed-grade-level subject matter and discussion areas for beginners, you're on the wrong board. Even the teenagers here are able to hold their own in intellectual discussion, and don't come here looking to debate elementary-school level topics. You are insulting the average intelligence of the other board users with this crap.
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:22:49 PM
Unless I made a serious error in judgement, and PD is only for old farts that have already discussed every topic I might encounter in college.
You need to mention mind control lasers and REAL discordianism.
My bingo card is almost full.
The other thing, Trix, is that while I have seen you start plenty of threads trying to get other people to feed you their opinions, I haven't seen you write a single rant, essay, or manifesto presenting yours.
That's the single best way to get people's attention and interaction. "What makes one person's opinion worth more than another person's opinion?" is gonna make a lot of people grit their teeth and say "THINK FOR YOURSELF, SCHMUCK!"
Instead, tell us what you think makes one person's opinion worth more than another person's opinion.
You do think, right?
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 06:10:45 PM
The other thing, Trix, is that while I have seen you start plenty of threads trying to get other people to feed you their opinions, I haven't seen you write a single rant, essay, or manifesto presenting yours.
That's the single best way to get people's attention and interaction. "What makes one person's opinion worth more than another person's opinion?" is gonna make a lot of people grit their teeth and say "THINK FOR YOURSELF, SCHMUCK!"
Instead, tell us what you think makes one person's opinion worth more than another person's opinion.
You do think, right?
Taking into account that, as I've mentioned, I don't have the wit or creative writing skills of the majority of active posters here, combined with the fact that I have only (somewhat) recently started "T[ing]FY,S", further combined with what already happens just from merely asking for the opinions of others, and I've gotten the idea that posting some of my opinions would cause even worse headache-inducing threads than the ones you're already complaining about.
Especially considering I am not nearly as well read as many of you, making my opinions uninformed by comparison.
Especially considering that asking people for their opinions generally causes
less backlash then spouting my own, in my experience.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:03:15 PM
To be fair, a few people are riding him like a :hosrie:
On the other hand, he's responding.
:monkeydance:
:mrgreen:
It's probably the attention whore primate in me, but I rather enjoy the exchanges.
The real truth is, we just like to yell and carry on.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:32:17 PM
The real truth is, we just like to yell and carry on.
Yup, figured that. (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=23512.0)
Hail discordia.
Trix... if you want to develop the kind of writing skill you see here, you have to have the balls to WRITE. Do some of the regular posters here make me feel like an underinformed, semi-literate monkey sometimes? Yep. I'd name names, but i'd leave people off because I would forget.
Dead serious, here. Do it. Accept that people here will pull your brain apart, it's a tough crowd. Deal with the fact that we may tell you in no uncertain terms when we tthink you have your head so far up your own ass that you can see daylight. But, you'll learn.
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 06:37:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:32:17 PM
The real truth is, we just like to yell and carry on.
Yup, figured that. (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=23512.0)
Hail discordia.
Never mind.
Nobody can say I didn't try.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:44:41 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 06:37:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 12, 2011, 06:32:17 PM
The real truth is, we just like to yell and carry on.
Yup, figured that. (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=23512.0)
Hail discordia.
Never mind.
Nobody can say I didn't try.
:?
I must have missed something here.
In my defense, I'm doing homework at the same time so my attention is diverted.
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 06:31:17 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 06:10:45 PM
The other thing, Trix, is that while I have seen you start plenty of threads trying to get other people to feed you their opinions, I haven't seen you write a single rant, essay, or manifesto presenting yours.
That's the single best way to get people's attention and interaction. "What makes one person's opinion worth more than another person's opinion?" is gonna make a lot of people grit their teeth and say "THINK FOR YOURSELF, SCHMUCK!"
Instead, tell us what you think makes one person's opinion worth more than another person's opinion.
You do think, right?
Taking into account that, as I've mentioned, I don't have the wit or creative writing skills of the majority of active posters here, combined with the fact that I have only (somewhat) recently started "T[ing]FY,S", further combined with what already happens just from merely asking for the opinions of others, and I've gotten the idea that posting some of my opinions would cause even worse headache-inducing threads than the ones you're already complaining about.
Especially considering I am not nearly as well read as many of you, making my opinions uninformed by comparison.
Especially considering that asking people for their opinions generally causes less backlash then spouting my own, in my experience.
The only way to build skills is to exercise them.
Yes, you will write some shoddy bullshit, and we will tear it down and tell you why you are wrong, and you will try to defend your argument and get laughed at. But in the process, you will learn to think critically and examine your own views for flaws, you will learn to present yourself cogently, and you will learn to build a defensible argument. You will end up better off for it, but you aren't going to get there sitting on the sidelines and asking the players what it's like to play.
ETA: What Luna said.
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 06:51:31 PM
(quote pyramid snipped)
The only way to build skills is to exercise them.
Yes, you will write some shoddy bullshit, and we will tear it down and tell you why you are wrong, and you will try to defend your argument and get laughed at. But in the process, you will learn to think critically and examine your own views for flaws, you will learn to present yourself cogently, and you will learn to build a defensible argument. You will end up better off for it, but you aren't going to get there sitting on the sidelines and asking the players what it's like to play.
ETA: What Luna said.
Alrighty, next time I have something to say, I'll toss it out there. However, don't say I didn't warn you.
Quote from: NEWSFEED
My opinion > your opinion
:lulz: :mrgreen:
Was that there already? Because if it was not, I think that makes me an official spag!
ETA: QUE HORA ES! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6-vm1OiUOw)
Just to add something funny.
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
I am flattered by the crush you and Phox have on me, and I find you both to be pleasant, brilliant, and insightful people as well. Perhaps we should exchange phone numbers?
A/S/L?
22/F/IL. PM Incoming.
Phox,
Doesn't afraid of anything.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 10:31:42 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
I am flattered by the crush you and Phox have on me, and I find you both to be pleasant, brilliant, and insightful people as well. Perhaps we should exchange phone numbers?
A/S/L?
22/F/IL. PM Incoming.
Phox,
Doesn't afraid of anything.
:popcorn:
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 10:31:42 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
I am flattered by the crush you and Phox have on me, and I find you both to be pleasant, brilliant, and insightful people as well. Perhaps we should exchange phone numbers?
A/S/L?
22/F/IL. PM Incoming.
Phox,
Doesn't afraid of anything.
You're in for a wild ride, it seems, Trix. :lulz:
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 13, 2011, 04:30:02 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 10:31:42 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
I am flattered by the crush you and Phox have on me, and I find you both to be pleasant, brilliant, and insightful people as well. Perhaps we should exchange phone numbers?
A/S/L?
22/F/IL. PM Incoming.
Phox,
Doesn't afraid of anything.
You're in for a wild ride, it seems, Trix. :lulz:
She really PM'd me her number too!
Was not expecting that. Now to see how the phone call goes, come tomorrow. :)
Quote from: trix on October 13, 2011, 04:36:28 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 13, 2011, 04:30:02 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on October 12, 2011, 10:31:42 PM
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 12, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 12, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
What I don't understand is why he feels the need to bring his second-year philosophical wankery here. He's IN COLLEGE, isn't he? Aren't there a bunch of other naive gits there who haven't had this discussion ten thousand times that he could be boring with his pointless sophomoric rehash, and might therefore actually find it interesting?
You are seriously overestimating this wankery's interesting to college student's factor. :lulz:
I am flattered by the crush you and Phox have on me, and I find you both to be pleasant, brilliant, and insightful people as well. Perhaps we should exchange phone numbers?
A/S/L?
22/F/IL. PM Incoming.
Phox,
Doesn't afraid of anything.
You're in for a wild ride, it seems, Trix. :lulz:
She really PM'd me her number too!
Was not expecting that. Now to see how the phone call goes, come tomorrow. :)
She's a good phone buddy.
Quote from: trix on October 12, 2011, 05:22:49 PMI was under the impression both that PD had people of all shapes and sizes (thus, there might be other college level people that are interested in studying it), and that those who aren't interested in discussing it would simply click a different thread. It was not my intention to waste your time, but not everyone has had these conversations to death, and I figured that some of those people who have not might be here as well.
So you seriously wanted to discuss philosophy to death, here, with some new people who "might not have done it yet", so that those people that "haven't had that discussion yet" have the chance to rehash it exactly the same way it's been rehashed over and over again?
What do you think this is, fucking Bible class or something?
How about you start some NOVEL discussions so that everybody can play??
Did you think there's a shortage of subjects that haven't been done to death yet, so that we have to revisit the old ones? Are you really that unoriginal and uncreative?
QuoteUnless I made a serious error in judgement, and PD is only for old farts that have already discussed every topic I might encounter in college.
Pretty much, yeah. If you do not assume that for every topic there is somebody on PD that has better-than-college-level knowledge about it, then YES you made a serious error in judgement.
See, there are no stupid questions, only boring discussions about them.
If this makes you think this leaves you nothing to talk about, then you must be a very boring person, doomed to repeat the footsteps of those who walked before you. Which is okay, fine even, for
That Way Lies the Path to Adequacy. Just don't make us watch you.
Simply put, if you run into some topic or subject you're interested in but aren't that up to speed on, and want to bring it up on the boards:
1) Google the subject so you have basic terms.
2) Start your post by saying, "hey, anyone here know anything about Cartesian Duality?"
3) If the board groans collectively, back off, and ask where the relevant thread is.
4) If you state a case or point of view or conclusion, be prepared to not only have it challenged, but completely dismantled. Accept this as a learning experience, and don't get defensive.
5) There is no item number 5.
My opinion >>> everyone elses opinions.
Because I'm special.
~~~Payne: A unique snowflake.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 13, 2011, 01:28:48 PM
Simply put, if you run into some topic or subject you're interested in but aren't that up to speed on, and want to bring it up on the boards:
1) Google the subject so you have basic terms.
2) Start your post by saying, "hey, anyone here know anything about Cartesian Duality?"
3) If the board groans collectively, back off, and ask where the relevant thread is.
4) If you state a case or point of view or conclusion, be prepared to not only have it challenged, but completely dismantled. Accept this as a learning experience, and don't get defensive.
5) There is no item number 5.
This is really great advice for being on internet forums in general, actually.
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 13, 2011, 09:22:24 AM
See, there are no stupid questions, only boring discussions about them.
:mittens:
This thread is like philosophy amateur hour.
So guys, imagine the reality we see isn't really real, and it's like, the shadows seen on a cave wall, of true and eternally existing abstract concepts....
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2011, 06:21:28 PM
So guys, imagine the reality we see isn't really real, and it's like, the shadows seen on a cave wall, of true and eternally existing abstract concepts....
:lulz:
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/newsfeed/000/113/808/Philosoraptor.jpg?1302732458)
Why do we park on the driveway and drive on the parkway?
Isn't that just /fascinating/.
(http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lssl1vbwYF1r4vn34o1_r1_500.jpg)
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2011, 06:21:28 PM
So guys, imagine the reality we see isn't really real, and it's like, the shadows seen on a cave wall, of true and eternally existing abstract concepts....
Waaaait just a minute, so not only did Plato invent the polyhedral dice, he also invented dungeons in the context of role-playing !!
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2011, 06:40:14 PM
(http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lssl1vbwYF1r4vn34o1_r1_500.jpg)
:lulz: :lulz:
See? this thread turned out hilarious!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 13, 2011, 01:36:48 PM
My opinion >>> everyone elses opinions.
Because I'm special.
~~~Payne: A unique snowflake.
yes dear, whatever you say.
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2011, 06:21:28 PM
So guys, imagine the reality we see isn't really real, and it's like, the shadows seen on a cave wall, of true and eternally existing abstract concepts....
Good form, sir, good form.
Or if we are all fleeting details in the dream of some Mad God. Our whole lives, just a tiny detail, as he scratches his omnipotent ballsack in the night. Spookay.
Quote from: Pixie on October 13, 2011, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 13, 2011, 01:36:48 PM
My opinion >>> everyone elses opinions.
Because I'm special.
~~~Payne: A unique snowflake.
yes dear, whatever you say.
PAYNE = FOOKED.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 18, 2011, 06:29:41 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 18, 2011, 03:09:26 AM
Quote from: Pixie on October 13, 2011, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 13, 2011, 01:36:48 PM
My opinion >>> everyone elses opinions.
Because I'm special.
~~~Payne: A unique snowflake.
yes dear, whatever you say.
PAYNE = FOOKED.
:cry:
He can at least type... Looks like she probably left him a couple fingers, at least...
She's feeling generous.