http://www.koinlocal6.com/news/local/story/Portland-woman-boyfriend-wont-face-charges-in/O5kF74cxmUikMab_W02A2g.cspx
NSFW: http://pics.spaceghetto.st/images/5muaq.jpg
I don't know why people are so upset about it.
:lulz:
I must be sick, but I see nothing that wrong with that. It's like it was people.
What's the big deal?
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(http://bestfantasystories.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Daenerys-Eats-A-Horse-Heart.png)
I think it's pretty fucked up, as in I would never do it...but to each their own. Right?
That's MY American Dream
Wow... I happen to live in the same county. I'll have to find out where exactly where that happened.
:horrormirth:
(http://www.thehotglove.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/cheeseburger.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JuEPISwo8ss/TNOEm-XZzOI/AAAAAAAAA6w/NFHK60dYfTc/s1600/cheeseburger-bath-14092-1288761508-31.jpg)
Now explain the difference between this and the story.
Quote from: Risus on October 31, 2011, 06:23:26 PM
Now explain the difference between this and the story.
One of the stories is sexy and the other is delicious
Quote from: Donald Coyote on October 31, 2011, 05:59:32 PM
:lulz:
I must be sick, but I see nothing that wrong with that. It's like it was people.
I thought it sounded like a kind of cool art project. It's not like they tortured the horse.
Quote from: Nigel on October 31, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
Quote from: Donald Coyote on October 31, 2011, 05:59:32 PM
:lulz:
I must be sick, but I see nothing that wrong with that. It's like it was people.
I thought it sounded like a kind of cool art project. It's not like they tortured the horse.
It was probably a hot or warm art project. :lulz:
It's the best way to stay warm on Hoth if your stuck outside during a snowstorm....
I can't help wondering if it smelled delicious.
Well I can. It doesn't really upset me, but I can totally imagine this being upsetting to people, and not even just the vegetarians.
I'm 169% sure it would upset my (vegetarian) gf up to the point where she'd be mad at me for even showing it to her.
That said, they did put it down humanely and this is very personal, they did eat the meat. I still think it's disrespectful to the animal to pose with it like that, crawl inside it naked, it's quite fucked up. Regardless of whether they took pictures, it looks like they did it for cheap thrills and perhaps shock value. The article quotes something about the girl's wish of "being one" with the animal, as if it was a spiritual thing, but the grins on the picture tell me otherwise.
Because they put it down humanely I don't think they should be fined or charged with anything, but I still think it's very disrespectful to parade around with a dead animal like that.
It'd be worse if they hadn't eaten the meat, in my very personal belief that is a way to pay respect to an animal whose life you've taken, so in some sense that kind of evens it out a teeny tiny bit.
Quote from: Risus on October 31, 2011, 06:23:26 PMhttp://www.thehotglove.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/cheeseburger.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JuEPISwo8ss/TNOEm-XZzOI/AAAAAAAAA6w/NFHK60dYfTc/s1600/cheeseburger-bath-14092-1288761508-31.jpg
Now explain the difference between this and the story.
You serious?
There's some differences. Not sure what I think is worse, actually.
At least they ate the horse.
I kinda doubt these guys ate these pancakes or cheeseburgers or whatever they are.
It's a whole different kind of disgust IMO.
I really don't like it when people waste food like that. It's decadent and stupid. LOOK AT ME I CAN WASTE FOOD. At least the horse ended up as food.
I think both are really stupid. You can't really compare it. The horse is obviously more shocking. The idiots in the bathtub are obviously wasting more food.
Quote from: Nigel on October 31, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
I thought it sounded like a kind of cool art project. It's not like they tortured the horse.
No, a
cool art project would have shown more respect to the animal, they could have done the same thing, evoked the same emotions but better, and not look like a bunch of giggling idiots defiling a horse corpse for cheap thrills. IMO. But then, I don't have to like them all.
Quote from: Nigel on October 31, 2011, 05:45:42 PM
I don't know why people are so upset about it.
They're not okay with their own arousal,
and no one else should be either.I don't see why people believe you should be so reverent with dead animals. It's as though these people are desecrating them and factory farms sanctify them for consumption or something.
I understand why people could be disgusted, on many different levels, by this.
I'm not though.
Not to condone their actions, but they do appear to have a much closer understanding of death, food and sex (the topics of oh so many artistic and philosophical exercises) than many of the plastic and mass produced so called "humans" I see every day, who each leave their very own mental graffiti scarred all over my psyche.
Is what these two got up to in any way good? or in any way bad? I don't think I can confidently say. But it is regardless a visceral, real and "different" event, and not the usual "tagging" my mental wall ends up coated in.
I will go so far as to say that I don't consider this an intentional (on their part) artistic endevour, but it is art. And I am appreciating it.
:deadhorse: + :lulz:
Or
:?
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 31, 2011, 07:35:48 PM
Well I can. It doesn't really upset me, but I can totally imagine this being upsetting to people, and not even just the vegetarians.
I'm 169% sure it would upset my (vegetarian) gf up to the point where she'd be mad at me for even showing it to her.
That said, they did put it down humanely and this is very personal, they did eat the meat. I still think it's disrespectful to the animal to pose with it like that, crawl inside it naked, it's quite fucked up. Regardless of whether they took pictures, it looks like they did it for cheap thrills and perhaps shock value. The article quotes something about the girl's wish of "being one" with the animal, as if it was a spiritual thing, but the grins on the picture tell me otherwise.
Because they put it down humanely I don't think they should be fined or charged with anything, but I still think it's very disrespectful to parade around with a dead animal like that.
It'd be worse if they hadn't eaten the meat, in my very personal belief that is a way to pay respect to an animal whose life you've taken, so in some sense that kind of evens it out a teeny tiny bit.
Quote from: Risus on October 31, 2011, 06:23:26 PMhttp://www.thehotglove.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/cheeseburger.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JuEPISwo8ss/TNOEm-XZzOI/AAAAAAAAA6w/NFHK60dYfTc/s1600/cheeseburger-bath-14092-1288761508-31.jpg
Now explain the difference between this and the story.
You serious?
There's some differences. Not sure what I think is worse, actually.
At least they ate the horse.
I kinda doubt these guys ate these pancakes or cheeseburgers or whatever they are.
It's a whole different kind of disgust IMO.
I really don't like it when people waste food like that. It's decadent and stupid. LOOK AT ME I CAN WASTE FOOD. At least the horse ended up as food.
I think both are really stupid. You can't really compare it. The horse is obviously more shocking. The idiots in the bathtub are obviously wasting more food.
Quote from: Nigel on October 31, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
I thought it sounded like a kind of cool art project. It's not like they tortured the horse.
No, a cool art project would have shown more respect to the animal, they could have done the same thing, evoked the same emotions but better, and not look like a bunch of giggling idiots defiling a horse corpse for cheap thrills. IMO. But then, I don't have to like them all.
They are really young (well, she is at least) and I don't think they had any idea what they're doing. However, this definitely looks like the seeds of some pretty interesting creative talent. "Defiling"? I don't see that. She said she wanted to feel what it was like to be one with the horse. Weird by today's standards? Perhaps. But today's standards SUCK ASS. People eat creepy processed food and call it civilized because they are so separated from the blade that cuts the throat or crops the grain.
If that was an elk, not a horse, I think people would react differently. They might even think it was hot... remember the people fucking on a bear?
Being disrespectful to animals = hurting animals for the wrong reasons, here this is no longer the case. Once the animal is dead it switches categories: from living-thing-to-be-respected to food and other resources. NOT playing with it would be an insult, not to the former-animal-current-food but to Man's innate curiosity.
Quote from: Nigel on October 31, 2011, 08:02:45 PM
If that was an elk, not a horse, I think people would react differently. They might even think it was hot... remember the people fucking on a bear?
That's why I think its a troll. Same reason some freak out when they hear another human eat pets (dogs, bugs)
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 31, 2011, 07:35:48 PM
I still think it's disrespectful to the animal to pose with it like that, crawl inside it naked, it's quite fucked up. Regardless of whether they took pictures, it looks like they did it for cheap thrills and perhaps shock value. The article quotes something about the girl's wish of "being one" with the animal, as if it was a spiritual thing, but the grins on the picture tell me otherwise.
I found the presence of a grinning naked woman to vastly improve my contemplation of the death of that horse. I find the lack of any interaction that most people have with the slaughtering of animals to be more disrespectful than what those people did. Most people don't really give a shit if the cows, pigs, and chickens they eat suffered a tortuous death, yet a grinning naked woman crawls inside a humanely killed horse and it's an obscene desecration. Really?
Body Worlds is running a show where human plastinated corpses are put into sexual positions. Is this also "disrespectful to the animal"?
Quote from: Nigel on October 31, 2011, 08:02:45 PM
If that was an elk, not a horse, I think people would react differently. They might even think it was hot... remember the people fucking on a bear?
Not for me, we got horse meat in the supermarkets here. For some reason only slices of smoked horse meat and nothing else, but it's there. Very nice on a sandwich btw, also ridiculously cheap.
Quote from: Net on October 31, 2011, 08:25:03 PMI found the presence of a grinning naked woman to vastly improve my contemplation of the death of that horse. I find the lack of any interaction that most people have with the slaughtering of animals to be more disrespectful than what those people did. Most people don't really give a shit if the cows, pigs, and chickens they eat suffered a tortuous death, yet a grinning naked woman crawls inside a humanely killed horse and it's an obscene desecration. Really?
Yeah really. But your perspective is interesting as well.
If the people in a chicken slaughtering facility would put dead chickens on their head, for effect, I'd consider that disrespectful too. In addition to the bio industry being a horrible thing. It's two different things.
If they'd killed it inhumanely and then paraded around with its entrails like that, it'd be animal abuse first and disrespectful later. Get that?
So yeah, awesome of them they didn't torture it first? Nonsense. Also good they ate it afterwards. But also disrespectful what they did in between. Not that big of a deal, even, but if they were my friends I'd give them all sorts of shit about it.
Hey even if she learned all sorts of inner revelations about life and death while doing that, good for her. I doubt she learned anything more than you'd learn by actually slaughtering it for its meat and eating it.
QuoteBody Worlds is running a show where human plastinated corpses are put into sexual positions. Is this also "disrespectful to the animal"?
I haven't seen it. The corpses didn't give permission, but came from questionable sources, prisoners, did they?
It's a whole different question. Should it have been done? Without permission, probably not, maybe, I don't know, I haven't seen it. Should you go watch it? Only if you can be respectful to the dead, if you go there and make fun of that shit you're being a shithead.
Would you find it disrespectful to the horse if they had merely eaten horseburger off each other's privates?
Remember the bacon bra? Is that also disrespectful to the pig?
And what about Lady Gaga's meat dress? Or leather straps and implements used for sexual purposes?
I'd consider all of those things as very similar and if this reverence for dead animals is to be applied consistently, the above issues ought to arouse the same indignation.
Okay.
I don't really feel like dissecting why and under what circumstances I would either find those cases disrespectful to the animal, or being disrespectful with food, or not. I could, but it would get kind of tedious.
I said it's kind of personal, and I figure you sort of understand already, even if not the specific details or whether I'd be consistent about it in all circumstances.
I could also interrogate you about why you find the presence of a grinning naked woman to vastly improve your contemplation of the death of that horse, though I can empathize with that, I personallly don't feel that really necessary either.
The question was why people get upset about it, and I'm assuming you got at least a glimpse of insight on that matter.
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 31, 2011, 10:45:08 PM
I don't really feel like dissecting why and under what circumstances I would either find those cases disrespectful to the animal, or being disrespectful with food, or not. I could, but it would get kind of tedious.
I said it's kind of personal, and I figure you sort of understand already, even if not the specific details or whether I'd be consistent about it in all circumstances.
It's okay if you don't want to go into specifics, however, I'm genuinely curious about this reverential attitude towards animal corpses.
I get that there's a gross-out factor of the slaughtered horse and that a woman's naked body being covered in animal blood is taboo, but I find this sort of quasi-religious concern with its carcass to have supernatural themes. Since you've always seemed to be opposed to paranormal beliefs, I'm surprised that you apparently find the lifeless body of an animal to still retain something (a spirit, a ghost, a residual life force?) that deserves to be honored.
If that woman wants to crawl inside my ribcage after I'm dead, what would I care? I'd be dead.
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 31, 2011, 10:45:08 PM
I could also interrogate you about why you find the presence of a grinning naked woman to vastly improve thy contemplation of the death of that horse, though I can empathize with that, I personallly don't feel that really necessary either.
I'd be fine with such interrogation, and I think it would add to the conversation.
It's these kinds of conversations where I realize how much the Internet has ruined me as a human being. I looked at those photos while eating pancakes, and I definitely got more than a little excited looking up the photo of Daenerys.
Quote from: Net on October 31, 2011, 11:49:40 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 31, 2011, 10:45:08 PM
I don't really feel like dissecting why and under what circumstances I would either find those cases disrespectful to the animal, or being disrespectful with food, or not. I could, but it would get kind of tedious.
I said it's kind of personal, and I figure you sort of understand already, even if not the specific details or whether I'd be consistent about it in all circumstances.
It's okay if you don't want to go into specifics, however, I'm genuinely curious about this reverential attitude towards animal corpses.
I get that there's a gross-out factor of the slaughtered horse and that a woman's naked body being covered in animal blood is taboo, but I find this sort of quasi-religious concern with its carcass to have supernatural themes. Since you've always seemed to be opposed to paranormal beliefs, I'm surprised that you apparently find the lifeless body of an animal to still retain something (a spirit, a ghost, a residual life force?) that deserves to be honored.
There's nothing supernatural about respect, even if that which you are being respectful about isn't really around any more.
I take off my hat when I enter a cathedral as a tourist, I wouldn't piss against somebody's gravestone, or go running around or raise my voice when visiting the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe in Berlin.
A slightly closer related example, in medical school, if you practice anatomy on a preserved body, and you don't treat it with respect or make some gallows joke about it, you can leave the lab immediately and may possibly even fail the class, depending on the teaching doctor/professor. Maybe it's somewhat less strict these days (not sure if I heard this from my father or one of my medicine studying friends), but I can totally get behind that. It's strict, maybe even too strict, but I can agree with medical students being taught to not joke around in such situations.
Actually, you could even argue there's strictly speaking a tiny hint or idea of supernaturalism or superstition behind this. Because yeah, of course, from a purely rational point of view, there's nothing wrong with these acts, except for the people that would be hurt by them, but in most of the cases, most of those people would never even know, and even those that would find out, you could argue don't really have a rational reason for being upset or feeling wronged in a real way.
I'd say that such is often the nature of respect, but I would also have to grant you that argument.
QuoteIf that woman wants to crawl inside my ribcage after I'm dead, what would I care? I'd be dead.
Well, now that you have expressed that wish, I would have no problem with it. Well, not quite. It would still upset me, and I'd think it weird and unnecessary and I wouldn't want to be there, and since I sort of know you (better than that horse), I don't think I would even want to see the pictures. Also it makes me worry how your family and loved ones would feel, but it's your choice in the end :)
QuoteI'd be fine with such interrogation, and I think it would add to the conversation.
Well if you want to, go right ahead. Though I think I can already guess how that works for you. Though maybe also not.
I found the video of the couple fucking on the dead bear disrespectful to the dead animal, although I also understand that death and hunting can instill a primal sexual urge in people. However, I didn't see anything disrespectful about a naked girl climbing inside a dead horse's abdominal cavity. To me, that looked more like experiential curiosity than desecration. I approve of experiential curiosity, most of the time.
Quote from: Nigel on November 01, 2011, 03:21:30 PMI found the video of the couple fucking on the dead bear disrespectful to the dead animal, although I also understand that death and hunting can instill a primal sexual urge in people. However, I didn't see anything disrespectful about a naked girl climbing inside a dead horse's abdominal cavity. To me, that looked more like experiential curiosity than desecration. I approve of experiential curiosity, most of the time.
You make a good point.
It's the grin that made me see something different, like the (Dutch) teenage boy that slapped his penis to the Taj Mahal. He obviously was in a sort of "hyper" exuberant giggling mood, with tears from laughing. He also got suspended (it was a school trip).
I realize I can't really judge their intentions from their grin.
But there's also part of me that still thinks it's fucked up.
Well, right now I really don't know
what to think about it anymore. I'm really leaning towards the "it's on the other side of the world, in the past, not like they mutilated a kitten or anything, whatever" position.
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 01, 2011, 12:14:30 PM
Actually, you could even argue there's strictly speaking a tiny hint or idea of supernaturalism or superstition behind this. Because yeah, of course, from a purely rational point of view, there's nothing wrong with these acts, except for the people that would be hurt by them, but in most of the cases, most of those people would never even know, and even those that would find out, you could argue don't really have a rational reason for being upset or feeling wronged in a real way.
I'd say that such is often the nature of respect, but I would also have to grant you that argument.
Good point about the nature of respect, irrationality is no reason to stop respecting. But then you are talking about respect for those that will be offended(right?), and that's a whole different animal.
Thinking that way the act itself was not disrespectful, but the dissemination of the resulting pictures
is if it is targetting those you know will be offended or hurt.
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 01, 2011, 12:14:30 PM
Also it makes me worry how your family and loved ones would feel, but it's your choice in the end :)
I think his point was that
it isn't his choice anymore. Which raises an interesting question: Whose body is it? It can't be the deceased' body since he should be dead.
I might be a freak but I thought the grin was really cute. That was one of my favorite pictures. Interestingly, my friend J, who is very into guns and survivalism etc, was completely horrified and creeped out by the pics, while me and b both found them kind of awesome and endearing (frankly, I think the girl is adorable, not sexually but just cute in her raw enthusiasm and exploration) and b and I are artists while J is a programmer. There may be a difference in how we view things.
One of the things that I thought was really interesting was that the article did not name ownership of the horse. It didn't mention it AT ALL. It said that the couple had been "caring for" the horse, which implies via omission that they were not the owners, but it didn't say anything about who actually owned the horse or how they felt about it. However, the fact that the couple shot the horse (humanely) and planned to eat it strongly suggest that they had the legal right to do so.
Honestly, had this been a cow and not a horse, I doubt there would be much uproar. People tend to view "friend" animals very differently from "food" animals.
I don't see what the big deal is. I mean, it was their dead horse, right? So who the fuck is anyone else to tell someone what they can or can't do with their own dead horse?
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on November 01, 2011, 04:52:37 PM
I don't see what the big deal is. I mean, it was their dead horse, right? So who the fuck is anyone else to tell someone what they can or can't do with their own dead horse?
FRANCE!
Quote from: Regret on November 01, 2011, 04:37:10 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 01, 2011, 12:14:30 PM
Also it makes me worry how your family and loved ones would feel, but it's your choice in the end :)
I think his point was that it isn't his choice anymore. Which raises an interesting question: Whose body is it? It can't be the deceased' body since he should be dead.
[/quote]
Yeah I wasn't being clear, what I meant is it's most definitely not
my choice, and that it's Net's choice to decide and try to get that to happen--whether the family has any say in it or could or should try to stop it, is another big question. Very culturally motivated as well, IMO. And also rooted in respect, whether he ought to try it if would make his family and loved ones very miserable.
Quote from: Nigel on November 01, 2011, 04:44:01 PMHonestly, had this been a cow and not a horse, I doubt there would be much uproar. People tend to view "friend" animals very differently from "food" animals.
Actually, I thought it was a cow before I read the article. Not very good at identifying carcasses with the entrails pouring out like that :)
Quote from: Net on October 31, 2011, 08:25:03 PM
I found the presence of a grinning naked woman to vastly improve my contemplation of the death of that horse. I find the lack of any interaction that most people have with the slaughtering of animals to be more disrespectful than what those people did. Most people don't really give a shit if the cows, pigs, and chickens they eat suffered a tortuous death, yet a grinning naked woman crawls inside a humanely killed horse and it's an obscene desecration. Really?
Body Worlds is running a show where human plastinated corpses are put into sexual positions. Is this also "disrespectful to the animal"?
BTW no offense intended, but aren't these sort of examples of this Dawkins Fallacy we've been discussing recently?
Quote from: Net on October 31, 2011, 07:45:33 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 31, 2011, 05:45:42 PM
I don't know why people are so upset about it.
They're not okay with their own arousal, and no one else should be either.
I don't see why people believe you should be so reverent with dead animals. It's as though these people are desecrating them and factory farms sanctify them for consumption or something.
Yeah, this. I have always said that animals have no rights, and dead animals don't even have privileges.
If that's what it takes to get her monkey on, though, I'm surprised she doesn't live on Drachmann St in Tucson.
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 01, 2011, 05:55:23 PM
Quote from: Regret on November 01, 2011, 04:37:10 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 01, 2011, 12:14:30 PM
Also it makes me worry how your family and loved ones would feel, but it's your choice in the end :)
I think his point was that it isn't his choice anymore. Which raises an interesting question: Whose body is it? It can't be the deceased' body since he should be dead.
Yeah I wasn't being clear, what I meant is it's most definitely not
my choice, and that it's Net's choice to decide and try to get that to happen--whether the family has any say in it or could or should try to stop it, is another big question. Very culturally motivated as well, IMO. And also rooted in respect, whether he ought to try it if would make his family and loved ones very miserable.
Quote from: Nigel on November 01, 2011, 04:44:01 PMHonestly, had this been a cow and not a horse, I doubt there would be much uproar. People tend to view "friend" animals very differently from "food" animals.
Actually, I thought it was a cow before I read the article. Not very good at identifying carcasses with the entrails pouring out like that :)
Quote from: Net on October 31, 2011, 08:25:03 PM
I found the presence of a grinning naked woman to vastly improve my contemplation of the death of that horse. I find the lack of any interaction that most people have with the slaughtering of animals to be more disrespectful than what those people did. Most people don't really give a shit if the cows, pigs, and chickens they eat suffered a tortuous death, yet a grinning naked woman crawls inside a humanely killed horse and it's an obscene desecration. Really?
Body Worlds is running a show where human plastinated corpses are put into sexual positions. Is this also "disrespectful to the animal"?
BTW no offense intended, but aren't these sort of examples of this Dawkins Fallacy we've been discussing recently?
[/quote]
I am not sure if the Dawkins Fallacy could be said to apply, simply because it's not necessarily a matter of "bad" vs. "worse", but more of a question of whether it's bad AT ALL. The horse was going to be dead either way, and is it actually harming anyone or anything to crawl inside its abdomen and take pictures? Or to hold its heart? I suppose if you're vegetarian and have objections to using animals as food, it could be seen as wrong. But the animal was put down humanely, and then it was eaten.
As far as Body Worlds is concerned, there was some controversy over whether some of the bodies came from Chinese prisons. That would definitely be bad, whereas if they were voluntary donations, that would be not bad (IMO).