This is disturbing
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15527746,00.html
QuoteAccording to German investigators, a link has been found between a neo-Nazi group and a string of unsolved murders. A connection also appears to exist between the neo-Nazi group and the murder of a policewoman in 2007.
Police had been investigating the scene of fires that destroyed a motor home in the eastern city of Eisenach and an apartment in Zwickau. In the motor home, the bodies of two men were found, apparent victims of suicide after a botched bank robbery. In the ruins of the apartment fire, police also found guns that were used in the killing of the police woman as well as eight food vendors with foreign backgrounds dating back to 2000.
DVDs found at the scene of the fire were also revealed to contain propaganda for a group known as the "National Socialist Underground."
"There is sufficient evidence to attribute the murders to an extreme right-wing group," said a statement from the Federal Prosecutors Office.
Spiegel explains the background more
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,797327,00.html
QuoteThe murder series involved execution-style killings of nine shop owners, eight of them of Turkish descent and one Greek, in cities across Germany between 2000 and 2006. The press dubbed the murders the "doner killings" because the victims were all small businessmen and included two kebab shop owners, a grocer, a tailor, a flower seller and a key cutter. The only link that police found between the murders was the weapon used -- a Czech-made Ceska 83 pistol with a 7.65 millimeter caliber.
I wonder how many other murders they may be responsible for? The NSU is previously unheard of, which hopefully means it is small. But then, it has been in operation it would seem for well over a decade, with no-one hearing about it.
Yuck.
I also think back from time to time about that East German village taken over by neo-nazis.
How very frightening--and the length of time it's taken for them to expose the operation...yeesh. Wonder if it's because of lack of evidence or the make-up of the victims...
So, Cain, in your opinion is this stuff on the rise, or is it just a switching of gears?
And what's with Europe and fascism anyway? I suppose it's a stupid question. What's with America and the Klan.
Muslims and immigrants are the stupid answer to both those.
It's definitely on the rise. It's not as bad as the 1960s...yet, but it's certainly getting there. So called "black terrorism" (as in blackshirts, opposed to "red" communist terrorism) is the untold story of terrorism in Europe. Not least because of how many of these terrorists were supported as part of a broader covert war aimed at stopping socialists and Communists getting into power in west Europe. Even less well known is the story of how fascist supporters were dropped into the Eastern Bloc, but that is a story for another day.
Well, according to Stanley Payne, the Klan actually influenced European fascism. It's more complicated than that, but the original Klan could be seen as a fascist organisation, perhaps the first in the world.
Anyway, posting again because new information about the cell responsible has surfaced.
http://diepresse.com/home/panorama/welt/708910/Diese-Fraktion-will-einen-Buergerkrieg-in-ganz-Europa?_vl_backlink=%2Fhome%2Findex.do
Translation:
QuoteThere is a group within the (right-wing) scene that promotes a "tension strategy". The goals is to provoke political opponents or foreigners - by murders or attacks in areas where foreigners live. This leads to demonstrations, attacks against neo-Nazis, etc.. The objective is a civil war scenario, similar what Anders Breivik envisioned. Ideally, this civil war would occur throughout Europe. The outcome of this war - according to the theories ofthe neo-Nazis - would be authoritarian regimes instead of a stronger democracy
The strategy of tension is the actual name of the Italian strategy of sponsoring fascist and communist terrorists to fight it out on the streets of Rome, Milan and Venice. If they used the same phrase...that is worrying.
Even more worrying are the suspicions that German intelligence had informants within the Neo-Nazi scene who were supporting the supposedly covert cell mentioned in the OP.
Additionally
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,798236,00.html
QuoteOfficials investigating the Zwickau neo-Nazi terror cell have uncovered what could be a list of targets created by the suspected terrorists. According to information obtained by SPIEGEL ONLINE, the list includes the names and addresses of 88 people, including at least two politicians who are members of the German federal parliament, the Bundestag, and representatives of Turkish and Muslim organizations.
Curiously, neofascism is on the rise here too. Before you could only meet young skinheads late at night in the park or at football games. Recently I went out with a group of friends, but we separated as I wanted to go home and play WoW. As I was walking home I heard a crowd yelling, but I couldn't understand what.
My friends, who went a different way told me they met with the yelling crowd - it was a big crowd of skinheads yelling "we are nazzis", waving flags and attacking people on the street. They were going to attack my friends but luckily one of them was an ex-classmate to one of my friends and convinced the crowd to leave them alone. Scary shit, actually as I've heard other people's stories of such "street parades" and a guy I know got severely beaten by them.
We had "Nazis" here at my house recently--unbeknownst to ourselves, of course. At our Halloween party, my cousin invited HER cousin whose wedding she'd just attended in the OC. She grew up with her (this is a cousin on her dad's side, she's a cousin of mine on her mom's side), but hadn't seen her in YEARS. Knew she'd been into drugs, etc. But thought she'd cleaned up her act, etc.
She and her new husband (tall, palefaced fucker who looks like a WE WANT YOU ad for the Marines) were all chill and shit. Till the conversation outside turned somehow to JEWS. She started telling my then-pretty-soused brother "WELL YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM JEWS. YOU KNOW, HOW IT IS, WHEN YOU HAVE A JEW-FRIEND." It was like something out of a bad comedy act or something. Straight textbook assbaggery, and it caught everyone unawares.
My brother just sorta blinked at her and said, "No, and I hope you don't mean what I THINK you mean, because that's just wrong and weird."
I guess the conversation devolved from there, and my brother ended up making it clear they were no longer welcome. I didn't know about any of this as I was inside the house entertaining other guests, but they said their goodbyes and had a funny look on their faces when I said they should come back some time when my husband was home. HAR.
Later on I found out the moment they decided to leave was when my brother said "You KNOW who owns this house, right? An Afghan Muslim." HAR HAR.
I hadn't seen the white power tatt on the back of the dude's neck, but apparently my uncle WAS aware that this guy and his buds were part of a white power pack of assholes. So yeah, I met some real-life Nazi assholes for the first time in my life...I've met plenty of Haulocaust survivors, know TONS of jacked up bigots (my in-laws are the worst perps at it I know of), but damn if I ever met a real-life white-power bastard.
Quote from: Jenne on December 01, 2011, 04:00:40 PM
We had "Nazis" here at my house recently--unbeknownst to ourselves, of course. At our Halloween party, my cousin invited HER cousin whose wedding she'd just attended in the OC. She grew up with her (this is a cousin on her dad's side, she's a cousin of mine on her mom's side), but hadn't seen her in YEARS. Knew she'd been into drugs, etc. But thought she'd cleaned up her act, etc.
She and her new husband (tall, palefaced fucker who looks like a WE WANT YOU ad for the Marines) were all chill and shit. Till the conversation outside turned somehow to JEWS. She started telling my then-pretty-soused brother "WELL YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM JEWS. YOU KNOW, HOW IT IS, WHEN YOU HAVE A JEW-FRIEND." It was like something out of a bad comedy act or something. Straight textbook assbaggery, and it caught everyone unawares.
My brother just sorta blinked at her and said, "No, and I hope you don't mean what I THINK you mean, because that's just wrong and weird."
I guess the conversation devolved from there, and my brother ended up making it clear they were no longer welcome. I didn't know about any of this as I was inside the house entertaining other guests, but they said their goodbyes and had a funny look on their faces when I said they should come back some time when my husband was home. HAR.
Later on I found out the moment they decided to leave was when my brother said "You KNOW who owns this house, right? An Afghan Muslim." HAR HAR.
I hadn't seen the white power tatt on the back of the dude's neck, but apparently my uncle WAS aware that this guy and his buds were part of a white power pack of assholes. So yeah, I met some real-life Nazi assholes for the first time in my life...I've met plenty of Haulocaust survivors, know TONS of jacked up bigots (my in-laws are the worst perps at it I know of), but damn if I ever met a real-life white-power bastard.
Where I live is crawling with them. Most are too ignorant to realize that they are supposed to hate Gypsies, or that someone with gypsy blood in him probably hates them.
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-268285-majority-of-german-turks-believe-state-supported-neo-nazis.html
QuoteGerman state organs have provided varying degrees of support to a recently uncovered neo-Nazi ring in that country, according to an overwhelming majority of Turkish immigrants living in Germany, a recent survey has found.
The survey comes some two months after the discovery of a neo-Nazi ring that was responsible for at least 10 murders. Nine of them were immigrants; eight being of Turkish origin, the other one Greek. The 10th victim was a police officer. As the investigation into the terrorist ring unfolded it became evident that Germany's federal intelligence agency, the Organization for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV), had been watching every move of the gang and had agents among the gang members. An investigation is under way into the murders, but the findings hint that the BfV possibly knew about some of the murders. It is now known that a BfV agent was present at the scene of one of the murders when it happened, and some German authors have suggested that the same agent might be the one who pulled the trigger. It is also known that the neo-Nazi gang was active since 2000 and authorities in Germany are now re-investigating all murder cases where the victims were immigrants that occurred after this date.
Fucking nazis.
Oh ho ho!
While Nazis have been running around murdering immigrants, guess what the German intelligence agencies have been doing? Spending far, far too much time spying on the German Left Party (Die Linke):
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,810773,00.html
QuoteGermany's opposition far-left Left Party is under more intense surveillance from domestic intelligence than previously thought, SPIEGEL has learned. Information from the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV) reveals that 27 Left Party parliamentarians are being observed -- more than one-third of the party's 76-strong parliamentary group.
The BfV is reportedly watching not just radical party members, but also a number of more moderate members, including almost all of the Left Party's leading figures in parliament. Among the targets are leader Gregor Gysi, deputy chairwoman Sahra Wagenknecht, and members of the party's parliamentary committee Dietmar Bartsch and Jan Korte.
You see, such extremist positions as progressive taxation, increased education spending, withdrawal from Afghanistan and more infrastructure projects are incompatible with the German way of life, and a direct threat to the citizens of the state.
Unlike resurgent Nazi terrorists. I mean, when in history have Nazis or terrorism ever been a problem?
Quote from: Cain on January 25, 2012, 10:12:41 AM
Unlike resurgent Nazi terrorists. I mean, when in history have Nazis or terrorism ever been a problem?
I don't know, but I heard they're indirectly responsible for Godwin's Law. So fuck them, really. If you're not going to let me gratuitously compare anything and everything to nazis then, well, you're basically a nazi right? Fuckin nazis.
Quote from: Cain on January 25, 2012, 10:12:41 AM
Oh ho ho!
While Nazis have been running around murdering immigrants, guess what the German intelligence agencies have been doing? Spending far, far too much time spying on the German Left Party (Die Linke):
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,810773,00.html
QuoteGermany's opposition far-left Left Party is under more intense surveillance from domestic intelligence than previously thought, SPIEGEL has learned. Information from the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV) reveals that 27 Left Party parliamentarians are being observed -- more than one-third of the party's 76-strong parliamentary group.
The BfV is reportedly watching not just radical party members, but also a number of more moderate members, including almost all of the Left Party's leading figures in parliament. Among the targets are leader Gregor Gysi, deputy chairwoman Sahra Wagenknecht, and members of the party's parliamentary committee Dietmar Bartsch and Jan Korte.
You see, such extremist positions as progressive taxation, increased education spending, withdrawal from Afghanistan and more infrastructure projects are incompatible with the German way of life, and a direct threat to the citizens of the state.
Unlike resurgent Nazi terrorists. I mean, when in history have Nazis or terrorism ever been a problem?
Cain, why are people retarded?
Quote from: Triple Zero on January 25, 2012, 12:57:35 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 25, 2012, 10:12:41 AM
Unlike resurgent Nazi terrorists. I mean, when in history have Nazis or terrorism ever been a problem?
I don't know, but I heard they're indirectly responsible for Godwin's Law. So fuck them, really. If you're not going to let me gratuitously compare anything and everything to nazis then, well, you're basically a nazi right? Fuckin nazis.
:lulz: :horrormirth:
Quote from: Twid, not Billy. on January 25, 2012, 01:17:57 PM
Cain, why are people retarded?
It is only retarded if you assume the intelligence agencies and neofascist terrorists are, in fact, enemies.
Fun facts about German intelligence:
- it was set up in the aftermath of WWII
- it was principally backed by the CIA, whose Allen Dulles was noted for his Nazi sympathies
- this is the same CIA who recruited a large number of Nazi scientists under "Operation Paperclip".
- oh, and knew the location of Eichmann.
- and also hired Klaus Barbie, the Butcher of Lyon, to run counterinsurgency ops against Soviet allies in South America
- and German intelligence was lead in the postwar period by Reinhard Gehlen, a German Army General who worked for the Nazis in WWII, and after the war used his private intelligence organization, made up of committed Nazis and war criminals and directed against the Soviet Union, to buy his freedom.
- West Germany and the USA also armed various Neo-Nazi groups in the postwar period to act as "stay-behind" units in case of invasion or internal subversion who, of course, then started to use these weapons and specialist training to kill Jews, unionists and social democrats.
While its something of a logical fallacy to suggest an entire institution may be "objectively pro-fascist" due to its past, that a large number of German terrorists had good links with the intelligence services at least up until the 1980s suggests a disturbing institutional trend.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,816734,00.html#ref=rss
QuoteAs Germany prepares to commemorate the 10 victims of the killing spree committed by the NSU neo-Nazi group, a former extremist has warned that more potential terrorists are lurking in the far-right scene, which he claims is well-organized and ready to resort to bombing attacks in its goal of creating a "Fourth Reich".
Gabriel Landgraf, 34, a former neo-Nazi from Berlin, says the German far-right scene has long contained potential terrorists with the same militant goals as the so-called Zwickau cell, the trio discovered by chance last November after murdering 10 people since 2000.
"These networks and structures have existed since the 1980s and 1990s. There are theories and strategies going around in the scene for how to go into terrorism," Landgraf, a former senior member of militant far-right groups, told foreign journalists in Berlin.
"People I knew were talking about using pipe bombs and other methods," said Landgraf, a well-spoken, slender man who quit the scene in 2006 and who doesn't want to be photographed. "They were saying that if the Day X, when society and the state collapse and the Fourth Reich can be built on the rubble, doesn't arrive quickly enough, we will have to find other ways and means to make it happen, and that terrorism is an option."
Meanwhile
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,815242,00.html
QuoteThe leaders of Germany's far-right NPD seek to project the party as mainstream and reasonable. In truth, however, the party is a melting pot for racists, Hitler worshippers and enemies of democracy. There are plenty of reasons to ban the party. But would it make the NPD more dangerous than ever?
The interior ministers of Germany's federal and state governments are in the process of re-examining whether they can -- and should -- ban the NPD. Since authorities uncovered the Zwickau terrorist cell and its supporters, who were apparently organized in a group calling itself the "National Socialist Underground" (NSU), the ministers have been asking themselves the kinds of questions that are critical to a possible attempt to ban the party. How much potential for violence does the NPD hold? Does it intend to violently abolish the democratic system? Can it be proved to be similar in nature to National Socialism? And, perhaps most importantly, would the party be more dangerous if it were banned?
The answers to these questions depends on the statements made by the NPD and how they are interpreted, as well as the actions of the NPD and how much weight they are given. In other words, the answers ultimately depend on the details.
First, however, a fundamental principle needs to be considered, namely, that a party should not be banned merely because it is deeply critical of the prevailing form of government. This is the historic lesson Germany learned from the years of the Nazi reign of terror, when Hitler united society under the swastika and had parties like the Communist Party and the Social Democratic Party banned.
The German constitution's response to this despotism is a guaranteed tolerance, which also applies in the political combat zone. Bans should be democracy's last line of defense, nothing less and nothing more. In the case of a political party, another determining factor in considering a ban is whether the party can be accused of having an "actively combative, aggressive posture against the prevailing system." These are the words of the Federal Constitutional Court in the southwestern city of Karlsruhe, the only body in Germany that can impose a ban, and that only with a two-thirds majority.
Paradoxically, the NPD's neo-Nazis are now the main beneficiaries of this anti-Nazi clause in the German constitution. That's why the process of examining a possible ban raises questions that extend beyond the current discussion, such as: How much freedom against the enemies of freedom can a democracy afford, and how much does it want to afford? And, 67 years after the end of World War II, is it an expression of the weakness or strength of German democracy if it takes the case to the Federal Constitutional Court, at the risk of failing there and thus making the right-wing extremists even stronger?
The Ugly Face of the NPD
These questions will accompany the interior ministers when they present their summary of the facts, presumably in March. They are searching for evidence that the NPD wants to overthrow the government, using violence, if necessary, or that it is too closely tied to neo-Nazis who will stop at nothing. There are many indications that those seeking to protect the constitution will not find the information they need at the Dresden offices of NPD members of the state parliament, where the party shows its tame face but, rather, in places like the Thinghaus in Grevesmühlen.
In the spring of 2010, shortly after the building had opened its doors, a party member enthusiastically referred to it as a "national free space" (a phrase used by neo-Nazis to describe what they see as their territory) on a website registered to the Thinghaus address. The domain owner is David Petereit, an NPD member of the state parliament and a former member of a neo-Nazi group called the Mecklenburgische Aktionsfront, which was banned in 2009.
Neo-Nazi rock bands like Stahlgewitter, known to the authorities for its album "Auftrag Deutsches Reich" (German Reich Mission), perform at the Thinghaus on weekends. An appearance by a former Ku Klux Klan leader was only cancelled because German authorities put the American agitator on a plane back to the United States the day before.
The Nazi fortress in Grevesmühlen belongs to Sven Krüger, a right-wing extremist who is currently serving a four-year prison term for dealing in stolen goods and possession of a weapon without a permit. The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV), Germany's domestic intelligence agency, believes that Krüger is the local head of the "Hammerskin Nation" in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, an American extremist group that is prepared to use violence and believes in the ultimate victory of the Nordic master race.
And one of the tenants here, in this bunker-like building surrounded by a tall fence, is Udo Pastörs, the second-in-command in the NPD national leadership and the party's leader in the Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania state parliament. The "citizens' office" that Pastörs shares with Stefan Köster, the NPD regional chairman for northeastern Germany, is located in the Thinghaus. Neither of the two politicians seems troubled by the links to the neo-Nazi and skinhead scene.
And why should they be? It is precisely their ties to neo-Nazis and other far-right groups that make the NPD as strong as it is.
Associated with Skinheads
It is arguably true that the ultra-extremists of the so-called Freie Kameradschaften ("free comradeships") -- small, loose-knit groups of right-wing extremists who are not officially organized as associations or political parties -- are more uninhibited in their expressions of hate and more prepared to use violence than the NPD. But, without the NPD, they would be nothing but local splinter groups. Only the NPD brings together the right-wing extremists, guaranteeing them nationwide notoriety and, at least in eastern Germany, a significant role as a regional party.
Conversely, the NPD wants to be associated with the street skinheads and with their visceral strength, which repeatedly manifests itself as raw violence. No one, least of all the leaders of the NPD, should be surprised that some of the presumed helpers of the Zwickau terrorist cell were, or still are, members of the party. After all, a hatred of the democratic German state is not just a characteristic of autonomous neo-Nazi groups, but also of the NPD. The desire to combat the state is the party's raison d'être. And the NPD's tactics involve pushing the boundaries of the legal as far as they can go -- even if the party has expressly distanced itself from the murders allegedly commited by the NSU.
So how far does the NPD actually go, and how deeply does it venture into the forbidden zone? Today, sources within the party portray it as a group that:
agitates against foreigners and Jews;
idolizes Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich;
flirts with the idea -- even at the highest levels of its national leadership -- of carrying out political change in the country, using violence if necessary;
uses its activities in regional parliaments as an opportunity to combat the state;
conceals its worldview behind the image of a party that is concerned about the needs of voters, which has enabled it to penetrate deeply into middle-class society in eastern Germany.
In the end, there is only one goal for the NPD: to overthrow the system, democracy and pluralism. This conclusion supports the notion that the NPD could in fact be banned. But whether such a ban would be a good idea is another question altogether.
(regarding the first bit, up to "The Ugly Face of the NPD") That sounds very reasonable, they're asking the right questions. I'm not sure what the right answers would be, myself (in context of official policy--personal answers are a different matter). And I wonder if they'll find them.
It's a hard one to call. I can defintely understand the worries of the German government about letting the NPD run around and act as an umbrella-group for every skinhead with a chip on his shoulder. With the recent revelations about the NUS group, I can see there being very little sympathy for them, especially from the SPD and Greens, who I would otherwise expect to say "we must let them exist as a party, but combat them at every turn and coordinate with antifascist groups to build a united front".
Then again, the rot extends much further than in the NPD, with the likes of Thilo Sarrazin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thilo_Sarrazin) penning popular diatribes against immigrants and Muslims in a manner very evocative of anti-Jewish propaganda by the Nazis.
The French police suspect the gunman behind the Jewish school shootings in Toulouse, and the killing of three French soldiers of North African descent may have a neofascist angle.
Police are also investigating, however, the possibility of an Islamist angle as well, which does make sense (all the North African kills were soldiers, so agents of the French state, and violent Islamists are as opposed to Jews as Nazis). However, the former seems more plausible of the two, thus far.
It is known that the same gun and the same scooter were used in all of the shootings. The police are also investigating eyewitness reports that say the gunman had a camera on his neck - meaning he might have filmed the whole shooting.
That these are shootings also make me lean a bit more towards it being a neofascist group, as it is an unusual tactic for an Islamist terrorist cell - but tactical analysis is not conclusive enough to make this a strong inference. A gun is more accessible than a bomb, after all, even in France (especially in France) and if he is working on his own, he may lack the skill necessary to make a bomb.
Or not. French police are currently in an armed standoff with a 24 year old Tolouse man with claimed Al-Qaeda connections.
We'll see if this amounts to more than reading Inspire magazine, and if he actually has any evidence linking him to the shootings.
I saw that on the news; and it may be exposure to PD.com, but I'm suspicious about all "Lone Gunmen" these days.
In the case of "Al-Qaeda", I'm more likely to suspect a lone gunmen than a criminal conspiracy. The real Al-Qaeda is probably under ISI house arrest, or else scrabbling around the NWFP with the Taliban. Yemen are poseurs, AQ in the Mahgreb are just a pre-existing group under a new, higher profile name and Al-Qaeda in Europe is almost entirely fictional.
And we know it's not Ilyas Kashmiri, because the death toll isn't in the hundreds.
"Al-Qaeda" is no longer an organisation, it's punctuation with built in boogeyman. A prefix of "Suspected Al-Qaeda" has all but replaced triple exclamation marks and extra-bold typeface in the uk tabloids.
Back to Germany and the National Socialist Underground.
Was doing some reading on the trials. You're not going to believe this...the German courts refused access to the trial for any Turkish media outlet. 8 Turks were killed by the NSU.
Fortunately, the German media are gentlemen and scholars, who gave up some of their seats so the Turkish press could be in attendance. Also, the court dealing with the case of Beate Zschäpe has delayed the trial so it can reallocate press passes to include Turkish and Greek media.