This is exceedingly stupid, even by the low standards of English Defence League:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-foil-edl-plan-to-target-st-pauls-6261009.html
QuoteMore than 170 supporters of the far-right English Defence League were arrested in Westminster yesterday as police moved to prevent a repeat of the violent clashes that took place on Remembrance Day last year.
A contingent of the group's members gathered outside the Red Lion pub near the Cenotaph on Whitehall. Police confirmed last night that threats were made before the visit by Michael Rafferty, a prominent far-right figure, that the group had access to firearms and was planning to bring them to London.
It is believed that some members were planning to go to St Paul's Cathedral and clash with the protesters encamped there.
Police said they had acted to prevent a "breach of the peace" after intelligence suggested that members were likely to get involved in violence in the capital. Mr Rafferty, who was not arrested, was stopped outside another Whitehall pub and was searched, but no firearms were found.
The 172 arrests were made around two hours after wreaths were laid at the Cenotaph to commemorate fallen servicemen and millions of Britons held a two-minute silence to remember the nation's war dead.
Here is what Rafferty posted to Facebook:
(http://i.imgur.com/YkNpU.jpg)
The plans to attack the Occupy London camp are also typically boneheaded
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/11/edl-arrests-london-occupy-armistice-day
QuoteThe English Defence League had issued statements and made threats on Facebook to burn down protesters tents if they were still outside St Paul's on Remembrance Sunday, according to Phillips.
Some members of the EDL had also attempted to enter the encampment, most recently on Thursday night.
A statement by the EDL on Thursday was read to the Occupy LSX general assembly on Friday morning to make people aware that there was a threat being made. "They called us all sorts of names in the statement and said we should leave "their" church and stop violating their religion," said Phillips.
Between this and the EDL links to Anders Breivik, I believe there are very good grounds to consider them a terrorist group in the making. Armed attacks on police, violence against peaceful protestors...what on earth did they think any of that would accomplish, in the long run? The protestors might be cowed, but the police would come down on them like a ton of bricks. You don't shoot coppers and expect a comfortable standard of living from there on it.
Sorry, maybe I should have put in a retarded statement by a public figure noted for making retarded statements, to gain some interest in this thread?
Don't know why I fucking bother...
Or maybe a pun?
Or something about my lovelife.
Or Skyrim.
Hey, hahaha [stupid partisan thing happened], lets laugh at it.
I just hadn't had enough time to come up with something intelligent.
EDL are basically Brownshirts right? I'd think they'd be trying to co-opt the occupy folks, not attack them. They're both basically working class movements after all, even if the brownshirt types are much cozier with the upper class.
That's pretty awful. All of it. Both stupid and :kingmeh: .
Too pissed off to reply now. Maybe later.
:(
So, it's right wing fanatics planning on doing major damage to Occupy London, and the police stopped them?
Sometimes I forget that in some countries, the cops actually do preserve the peace.
You posted this shortly before I left work or I would have commented. :|
The EDL have a history of making retarded statements. What is surprising is that - if I understand correctly - there's some implication they were actually intending to follow through on this (thus the arrests). Though the article doesn't say that any firearms were seized, or that there's any evidence beyond the leader saying they have them that they actually do, which leads me to think it may have just been more hot air blowing - much like they did around the royal wedding.
If that's the case, it may just be that they think trying to make themselves out as the people willing to put bullets in those damned hippies will help their recruiting, which it might. I'm sure there's a lot of racist thugs in the inner cities who would love to get their hands on some guns. Whether or not they can follow through is another question...
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 15, 2011, 06:50:41 PM
So, it's right wing fanatics planning on doing major damage to Occupy London, and the police stopped them?
Sometimes I forget that in some countries, the cops actually do preserve the peace.
There have been a few incidents in the US of police keeping bank security guards from assaulting protesters.
Why are they targeting Occupy at all? Arent they primarily an anti-muslim group?
http://englishdefenceleague.org/pointless-police-brutality-the-beginning-of-the-police-state-in-britain/
EDL is playing this as an incident of police brutality.
Which is funny coming from a group that seized upon the London riots as an excuse to attack a bus full of kids committing the heinous crime of being black.
Oh, and their website has a forum too.
:lulz: There goes my afternoon.
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on November 15, 2011, 08:19:39 PM
Why are they targeting Occupy at all? Arent they primarily an anti-muslim group?
I believe they are English Nationalists. So occupying the Cathedral on Remembrance Day would be seen as disrespectful to the soldiers and the sacrifice they made to keep England free. Therefore it is their duty to ruthlessly stamp out their dissent.
They have a board called "armed forces" that is private. Very interesting...
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on November 15, 2011, 08:30:49 PM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on November 15, 2011, 08:19:39 PM
Why are they targeting Occupy at all? Arent they primarily an anti-muslim group?
I believe they are English Nationalists. So occupying the Cathedral on Remembrance Day would be seen as disrespectful to the soldiers and the sacrifice they made to keep England free. Therefore it is their duty to ruthlessly stamp out their dissent.
But I heard that the Occupy people were paying their respects on the day just like everyone else.
I still find it funny that the London people picked a church of all the places to occupy. There arent any banks in London?
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on November 15, 2011, 08:46:16 PM
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on November 15, 2011, 08:30:49 PM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on November 15, 2011, 08:19:39 PM
Why are they targeting Occupy at all? Arent they primarily an anti-muslim group?
I believe they are English Nationalists. So occupying the Cathedral on Remembrance Day would be seen as disrespectful to the soldiers and the sacrifice they made to keep England free. Therefore it is their duty to ruthlessly stamp out their dissent.
But I heard that the Occupy people were paying their respects on the day just like everyone else.
I still find it funny that the London people picked a church of all the places to occupy. There arent any banks in London?
The police said they weren't allowed.
We wouldn't want to
inconvenience anybody, now, would we?
Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2011, 06:25:14 PM
Sorry, maybe I should have put in a retarded statement by a public figure noted for making retarded statements, to gain some interest in this thread?
Don't know why I fucking bother...
Sorry, Cain, wanted to get home and do some research (which I can't do from work) before I responded, as I know jack-all about the EDL, and I usually figure no response at all is better than one full of dumb.
The EDL website has something titled "Independent Video of Police Heavy-handedness" posted, which is some guy bitching about what happened. I checked out a few more videos, even those posted by EDL supporters show a lot of whining, one guy being picked up off the ground by a couple cops, a bunch of guys being loaded into vans... I'm finding it entertaining that there are shouts of "police brutality" as soon as the first guy exits the pub, near as I can tell, under his own power and onto his face. Cameras were running before anything other than the cops standing around was going on...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf3omajpFxQ&feature=related
Smells to me like this was all set up in order to give the EDL a chance to act the martyrs, with folks outside with video cameras ready to raise a stink.
Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2011, 06:25:14 PM
Sorry, maybe I should have put in a retarded statement by a public figure noted for making retarded statements, to gain some interest in this thread?
Don't know why I fucking bother...
I'm quite interested, but like Luna I'm completely unfamiliar with the EDL.
I'm kind of stunned by how dumb they're being even for a fringe group.
Could this be a successful subversion of their organization by infiltrators who have purposefully convinced the larger group and leadership to shoot themselves in the foot?
Very interesting... I will have to do some reading at a point when I'm not incapacitated.
Quote from: Agent Buttchug on November 15, 2011, 10:40:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2011, 06:25:14 PM
Sorry, maybe I should have put in a retarded statement by a public figure noted for making retarded statements, to gain some interest in this thread?
Don't know why I fucking bother...
I'm quite interested, but like Luna I'm completely unfamiliar with the EDL.
I'm kind of stunned by how dumb they're being even for a fringe group.
Could this be a successful subversion of their organization by infiltrators who have purposefully convinced the larger group and leadership to shoot themselves in the foot?
Read through the Booms and Headshots in Central Oslo thread Net (and others), these info and links relating to the EDL if you want to brush up. The important thing I gathered was that theres a vast competency gap between the people who organize shit, and the people who execute it.
To respond to the rest of the thread;
Firstly, the whole 'didnt reply thing' isn't so bad. I read a lot more than I write, especially in ae. I think theres lots of people on this site who do likewise, especially when they feel they don't have the knowledge on par with other participants; I know I'm definitely guilty of this, especially when Cain or Kai step up to the mike. If you buy into the implications (and I know not everyone does) of the mbpti thread, it's clear there's a lot of NTs here, and it's a typical NT trait to not want to participate in something until certain of getting it RIGHT.
But at the end of the day a surprising number of people use me as their key source of news yet never actually respond to things I share, and a lot more than that use Cain- so as far as 'why bother', a limited reaction does not mean the spread and discussion of such things is itself a waste.
Onto the op...
Theres a number of concerns I have in relation to what we're seeing.
One is the straight up increase (as I percieve it, not sure if that's the case) in right wing terror; the Giffords shooting, the BPL, Brevik and so on.
Two, the economic conditions in the Eurozone (and the impact worldwide) seem to foster the kind of environment that right wing extremism can thrive in.
Third the kind of zero-sum strategies we're seeing used by the right wing parties right now are scary. It's been mentioned here before that the GOP is good at forcing the Dems into unpleasant compromises because they genuinely don't care who gets hurt. The Australian Liberal Party (who are, confusingly, conservative) are playing at obstructionist games, to the point where they're telling businesses not to participate in the Carbon Trading Scheme because they intend to dismantle it if they win.
Rise in extremism, consistent with conditions receptive to such, consistent with us vs them radicalism becoming the norm in politics...
So generally, the continuation of the BPL seems bad, but contextually it seems scary as hell.
This, unfortunately, seems an opportune time for extremists to rise up. From all sides. Times of economic hardship are often historically the periods in which the most extreme factions of any side of any issue are able to gain ground and rise up. Often swallowing the more "reasonable middle-grounded majority." If in nothing else volume over substance.
I'm rather surprised no one from the US has done the like. We have the Westboro Baptists, sure, but they're not targeting OWS...yet. I'd be very shocked if folks like those who hang out on sites like Stormfront don't get a semi-wood contemplating aping the EDL's antics.
Quote from: Jenne on November 16, 2011, 03:57:42 PM
This, unfortunately, seems an opportune time for extremists to rise up. From all sides. Times of economic hardship are often historically the periods in which the most extreme factions of any side of any issue are able to gain ground and rise up. Often swallowing the more "reasonable middle-grounded majority." If in nothing else volume over substance.
I'm rather surprised no one from the US has done the like. We have the Westboro Baptists, sure, but they're not targeting OWS...yet. I'd be very shocked if folks like those who hang out on sites like Stormfront don't get a semi-wood contemplating aping the EDL's antics.
WBC are pacifists, which means their dynamic is fundamentally different than it would be for a violent group like the EDL.
This is the first time I've noticed this thread.
Basically, the EDL is a slightly more ballsy version of the teabaggers, from what I can tell.
Whether or not this particular incident is/was all hot air/publicity stunt/whathaveyou by the EDL, when does it get to the point that a group is considered a terroristic threat (other than when it's convenient to label a group as such to further one's political agenda)? By all means, I do think stupid people should be allowed be say stupid things and I certainly don't want any sort of blanket labeling or thought crime arrests (they may be getting ready to do something bad).
But with the rise of extremist groups, which do seem to have threatening/violent goals/ideals, when is the time to step in? It's a tricky spot, it seems. Some groups may be just blowing hot air (stupid people saying stupid things) and I don't think that should be an excuse for police intervention. But when does hate speech turn to inciting a riot/violence/terrorist act? Was someone acting as a "lone wolf", as a member of a group or influenced by their rhetoric? Or, in the interest of preserving people's freedom to say what they want, the only thing that can be done is wait until something happens and then deal with the person/group accordingly?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2011, 05:32:52 PM
This is the first time I've noticed this thread.
Basically, the EDL is a slightly more ballsy version of the teabaggers, from what I can tell.
That's what I was thinking. I'm betting Tea Baggers countrywide are wishing they'd have the balls to do initiate something like that on the OWS groups. You gotta know they're cheering in their barcaloungers when they see footage of the police beating the demonstrators back.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on November 16, 2011, 06:16:50 PM
Whether or not this particular incident is/was all hot air/publicity stunt/whathaveyou by the EDL, when does it get to the point that a group is considered a terroristic threat (other than when it's convenient to label a group as such to further one's political agenda)? By all means, I do think stupid people should be allowed be say stupid things and I certainly don't want any sort of blanket labeling or thought crime arrests (they may be getting ready to do something bad).
But with the rise of extremist groups, which do seem to have threatening/violent goals/ideals, when is the time to step in? It's a tricky spot, it seems. Some groups may be just blowing hot air (stupid people saying stupid things) and I don't think that should be an excuse for police intervention. But when does hate speech turn to inciting a riot/violence/terrorist act? Was someone acting as a "lone wolf", as a member of a group or influenced by their rhetoric? Or, in the interest of preserving people's freedom to say what they want, the only thing that can be done is wait until something happens and then deal with the person/group accordingly?
That's a fine line, trippin, I'm glad I don't have to tread or make decisions about. There are laws, etc., to fall back on here, but really, it's a matter of degree and feasibility. Making threas on Facefuck is just stupid, and may show that someone is unhinged since most everyone knows the FBI and CIA troll FB constantly looking for people to uh "investigate."
Be that as it may, it's one thing to be all "FUCK THIS GROUP" etc. and it's another to say "WE GOTS GUNS AND WE'SE GONNA
USE EM!!" One's just expressing hatred, the other is threatening violence outright, and should be taken seriously if the folks are organized and have struck already against the group they are expressing that hatred towards.
Quote from: Jenne on November 16, 2011, 06:56:37 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2011, 05:32:52 PM
This is the first time I've noticed this thread.
Basically, the EDL is a slightly more ballsy version of the teabaggers, from what I can tell.
That's what I was thinking. I'm betting Tea Baggers countrywide are wishing they'd have the balls to do initiate something like that on the OWS groups. You gotta know they're cheering in their barcaloungers when they see footage of the police beating the demonstrators back.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2806271/posts
QuoteIf the EDL ever do go violent I will not blame them...
QuoteWho could? How long can one idly watch the destruction of their own culture and country?
QuoteOf course, the Police didn't have the BALLS to arrest the muslim scum.
Quote"...so what is the EDL's problem?. Answer: they are thugs spoiling for a fight."
EDL's "problem" is that they still have testicles in a country of Eunuchs.
And of course,
QuoteWe did save you. If it weren't for the thousands of American Merchant Marine who were willing to give their lives to supply your island England would have fallen in less than a year.
And you know it.
Obligatory^
Sorry, Cain. I haven't been on PD in a couple of days. When I came back just now, your threads in AI were the first posts I read.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2011, 05:32:52 PM
This is the first time I've noticed this thread.
Basically, the EDL is a slightly more ballsy version of the teabaggers, from what I can tell.
That's what I am thinking. As strong as the teabagger rhetoric is against the occupy movement, I have been expecting something like this to happen in the US for a while.
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on November 17, 2011, 03:48:55 AM
Quote from: Jenne on November 16, 2011, 06:56:37 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 16, 2011, 05:32:52 PM
This is the first time I've noticed this thread.
Basically, the EDL is a slightly more ballsy version of the teabaggers, from what I can tell.
That's what I was thinking. I'm betting Tea Baggers countrywide are wishing they'd have the balls to do initiate something like that on the OWS groups. You gotta know they're cheering in their barcaloungers when they see footage of the police beating the demonstrators back.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2806271/posts
QuoteIf the EDL ever do go violent I will not blame them...
QuoteWho could? How long can one idly watch the destruction of their own culture and country?
QuoteOf course, the Police didn’t have the BALLS to arrest the muslim scum.
Quote"...so what is the EDL’s problem?. Answer: they are thugs spoiling for a fight."
EDL's "problem" is that they still have testicles in a country of Eunuchs.
And of course,
QuoteWe did save you. If it weren’t for the thousands of American Merchant Marine who were willing to give their lives to supply your island England would have fallen in less than a year.
And you know it.
Obligatory^
Damn. Reads like a motherfucking playbook.