MODERATOR NOTE: THREAD MERGE SNAFU! This thread is a little out of sequence. Nephew Twid's post belongs after the two posts which follow it. -Cramulus
Interesting.
It's true that I'm 30 and unmarried because I didn't want to end up making a stupid mistake that ends in divorce, like what happened with my parents.
And, I do enjoy some of the same music that my parents do.
A funny moment happened when I was in high school and my mom was giving me a lift somewhere and Led Zeppelin came on the radio, and we both reached for the volume knob at the same time. We had a good laugh over that.
The opposite occurred when I was hung over and I woke up to this loud, hard to discern noise coming from the living room. I come downstairs to see what the fuck is going on cuz my head was pounding, and my stepfather is listening to my demo at full volume. :lulz:
MODERATOR NOTE: THREAD MERGE SNAFU! This post is the OP, assholes! -Cramulus
I originally posted this in the Occupy thread, but it's a bit off-topic, and I thought we might enjoy chewing on it.
In that thread, we were talking about Generation X, and I wanted to bring up the term "Generation Y". I kind of prefer "The Millenials", over "Generation Y" or the "Echo Boomers", because can't we/they have our own definition that's not just "the guys who came after those other guys"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Y
The rough general consensus is that the Millenials start around 1982. (putting me right at the cusp between X and Y.)
Generation Y is a marketing term, so it really only discusses this generation in terms of its consumer habits. But that in itself is really interesting.
They also get called the "
Peter Pan Generation" due to the tendency to delay adulthood rituals really far.
Quotesome Millennials are delaying the transition from childhood to adulthood as a response to mistakes made by their parents. "In prior generations, you get married and you start a career and you do that immediately. What young people today are seeing is that approach has led to divorces, to people unhappy with their careers ... The majority want to get married [...] they just want to do it right the first time, the same thing with their careers."
On ReligionQuoteIn the United States, Generation Y has a slightly lower level of religiosity to older generations, and they are more likely to be skeptical of religious institutions.[67] A 2005 study looked at 1,385 people aged 18 to 25 and found that over half of those in the study said that they pray regularly before a meal. A third said that they talked about religion with friends, attend places of worship, and read religious materials weekly. 23% of those studied did not identify themselves as belonging to a religious affiliation.
:fnord:
I found this claim interesting:QuoteGeneration Y'ers never truly rebelled against their parents, unlike prior generations, often enjoying the same music, movies and products as their parents
more snippets from the article-------- to be clear, my notes will be in Red
The first appearance of "Generation Y"
When the term originated in 1993, it referred to teenagers aged 13 to 19 at the time (born between 1974 and 1980) with "more to come over the next 10 years". Here is a verbatim reprint of the actual Advertising Age op ed. of August 30, 1993 -- the above erroneous information notwithstanding:
"That cynical, purple-haired blob watching TV, otherwise known as Generation X, has been giving marketers fits for a long time. He doesn't respond to advertising, isn't brand-loyal and probably doesn't have much discretionary income, i.e. a job. But help is on the way. Following this angry young adult generation is a group of teens-agers who are leaving Generation X at the gate. There are 27 million of these 13-to-19-year-olds spending $ 95 billion a year, and both numbers will rise in the next 10 years. As our headline last week pointed out, this group is interested in real life, real solutions.
"Teens care -- about AIDS, race relations, child abuse and abortion. But instead of saying, I got screwed, they say, What am I going to do about it? They like to volunteer and they respond to marketers who they can believe are helping make the world better. There are other differences with Generation X. Male teens read and don't spend all their time in front of the TV. A Roper survey showed that 83% of male teens read a major magazine at least once every four weeks, and 43% subscribe to a magazine. Comic books and place-based media are good ways to reach teens. If they're over 16, they listen to radio.
"OK, they like to shop for price and dump a brand if it gets costly. In personal care products especially, teens look for bargains. But Jane Grossman, Seventeen publisher, says they love brands and trust advertising more than any other group.
"That advertising can address them honestly and seriously without their tuning out. The Gap, Reebok and Bausch & Lomb are but three of the marketers that speak to teens without condescending to hip-hop language to do it. And they are reaping the benefits, proving again there are no smarter consumers than our average teen-agers, and no smarter marketers than those who speak honestly to them."
I've read elsewhere that Generation Y has a strong resistance to direct advertising. They hate when they realize they're being pitched at. Subtler advertising techniques have a greater effect. -Cram
The Trophy Generation
The Millennials are sometimes called the "Trophy Generation", or "Trophy Kids,"[62] a term that reflects the trend in competitive sports, as well as many other aspects of life, where mere participation is frequently enough for a reward. It has been reported that this is an issue in corporate environments.[62] Some employers are concerned that Millennials have too great expectations from the workplace.[63] Studies predict that Generation Y will switch jobs frequently, holding far more than Generation X due to their great expectations.
My elementary school had a "field day", in which everybody in the school competed in relay races, obstacle courses, kickball, and other outdoorsy activities. In the end, everybody got the same blue ribbon: PARTICIPANT. I think I threw mine out about an hour later. -Cram
Hey Cram, could you split out my response to your post in Occupy and put it here?
I wonder, is the whole trophy thing part of encouraging them to get out and do something, or is it just to make everyone feel special?
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 29, 2011, 05:01:28 PM
I wonder, is the whole trophy thing part of encouraging them to get out and do something, or is it just to make everyone feel special?
at my school, I think it was so that nobody would feel like a loser because they can't kick a ball. I think the
real point of the day was to give teacher's a break in early June, but it does play into the "we need to raise kids with high self esteem" vibe going on in American education in the 80s/90s.
The other day, I was thinking about how as a kid, you're constantly being hit with these "WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO BE WHEN YOU GROW UP" signals. And the images that they show you are of high accomplishers - you could be a doctor, or an astronaut, or a rock star. And you can do anything you set your mind to!
These images always bring Tyler Durden to mind.
QuoteTyler Durden: Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
Yeah, I remember my dad pressuring me to go to college, and then when I started up the paperwork for it, he'd ask what I was going to major in.
History.
What are you going to do with that?
Uh, Classics.
What are you going to do with that?
And so forth.
What he wanted me to say was Pre-med or Law. I hate blood. And I sure as hell didn't want to be a lawyer.
Then, I didn't end up going to college until I was 25 and picking History anyway.
Of course, I did have my eyes set on the rock star thing, and listening to the radio and being progressively more annoyed with what I heard, I figured any jackass could make it.
Sure, as long as there aren't a million other me's trying to do the same thing.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:07:38 PM
"we need to raise kids with high self esteem" vibe going on in American education in the 80s/90s.
Fuck self-esteem. What's needed is fucking
self respect, and that is accomplished not by lowering the standards in all things, but rather in finding what individual people are actually talented at, and reinforcing that. So, the kid is 90 pounds and can't throw a football? See if he's a better fit on the math team or in an art class, as far as aiming the kid at things to excel in.
And as far as suffering through gym class, well, life is tough and you have to try things you aren't good at. If you don't learn that at 8-12 years old, you are FUCKED when you blunder out into the real world, however delayed that might be these days.
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 29, 2011, 05:22:38 PM
Of course, I did have my eyes set on the rock star thing, and listening to the radio and being progressively more annoyed with what I heard, I figured any jackass could make it.
Sure, as long as there aren't a million other me's trying to do the same thing.
I was talking to a cabalmate the other day about finding a new hobby together.
What about painting?
Nah, there are so many painters out there, we couldn't compete.What about making T-shirts?
No, there are like millions of people who make t-shirts.What about XYZ
I don't know if that'd be rewarding, there's already such a large group of people producing XYZeventually I was like, dude, why do you feel you have to be the alpha supreme of whatever hobby we pick? Can't we just make t-shirts because it's fun, not because we want to make a million bucks? It'd be cool to see people wearing our gear, isn't that enough? I want a
hobby, not a new job, damnit!
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:27:41 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 29, 2011, 05:22:38 PM
Of course, I did have my eyes set on the rock star thing, and listening to the radio and being progressively more annoyed with what I heard, I figured any jackass could make it.
Sure, as long as there aren't a million other me's trying to do the same thing.
I was talking to a cabalmate the other day about finding a new hobby together.
What about painting?
Nah, there are so many painters out there, we couldn't compete.
What about making T-shirts?
No, there are like millions of people who make t-shirts.
What about XYZ
I don't know if that'd be rewarding, there's already such a large group of people producing XYZ
eventually I was like, dude, why do you feel you have to be the alpha supreme of whatever hobby we pick? Can't we just make t-shirts because it's fun, not because we want to make a million bucks? It'd be cool to see people wearing our gear, isn't that enough? I want a hobby, not a new job, damnit!
Heh, I agree with you there, though I would like music to be my job (part of the reason why I'm branching out into Irish folk).
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:07:38 PM
"we need to raise kids with high self esteem" vibe going on in American education in the 80s/90s.
Fuck self-esteem. What's needed is fucking self respect, and that is accomplished not by lowering the standards in all things, but rather in finding what individual people are actually talented at, and reinforcing that. So, the kid is 90 pounds and can't throw a football? See if he's a better fit on the math team or in an art class, as far as aiming the kid at things to excel in.
And as far as suffering through gym class, well, life is tough and you have to try things you aren't good at. If you don't learn that at 8-12 years old, you are FUCKED when you blunder out into the real world, however delayed that might be these days.
That's a really good slicing of that idea, focusing on self-respect rather than self-esteem. I definitely don't see a lot of self-respect lessons being taught in school... that was something that always seemed unclear to me as a kid. My parents would always say "pick your battles" when I got all worked up about a teacher treating us like shit. Like, you can't possibly beat the system, so it's a lot safer to be a quiet serf. Humility, obedience to authority, etc. Well bollocks to that!
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:30:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:07:38 PM
"we need to raise kids with high self esteem" vibe going on in American education in the 80s/90s.
Fuck self-esteem. What's needed is fucking self respect, and that is accomplished not by lowering the standards in all things, but rather in finding what individual people are actually talented at, and reinforcing that. So, the kid is 90 pounds and can't throw a football? See if he's a better fit on the math team or in an art class, as far as aiming the kid at things to excel in.
And as far as suffering through gym class, well, life is tough and you have to try things you aren't good at. If you don't learn that at 8-12 years old, you are FUCKED when you blunder out into the real world, however delayed that might be these days.
That's a really good slicing of that idea, focusing on self-respect rather than self-esteem. I definitely don't see a lot of self-respect lessons being taught in school... that was something that always seemed unclear to me as a kid. My parents would always say "pick your battles" when I got all worked up about a teacher treating us like shit. Like, you can't possibly beat the system, so it's a lot safer to be a quiet serf. Humility, obedience to authority, etc. Well bollocks to that!
While some teachers may want to inspire self-respect, their bosses have NO interest in a self-confidant population.
And "pick your battles"? HAH! No disrespect to your folks, but I prefer "I WILL KILL A MOTHERFUCKER". People tend to fuck with those that "pick their battles" and steer clear of those who go nuclear
before anything else has been tried.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:30:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:07:38 PM
"we need to raise kids with high self esteem" vibe going on in American education in the 80s/90s.
Fuck self-esteem. What's needed is fucking self respect, and that is accomplished not by lowering the standards in all things, but rather in finding what individual people are actually talented at, and reinforcing that. So, the kid is 90 pounds and can't throw a football? See if he's a better fit on the math team or in an art class, as far as aiming the kid at things to excel in.
And as far as suffering through gym class, well, life is tough and you have to try things you aren't good at. If you don't learn that at 8-12 years old, you are FUCKED when you blunder out into the real world, however delayed that might be these days.
That's a really good slicing of that idea, focusing on self-respect rather than self-esteem. I definitely don't see a lot of self-respect lessons being taught in school... that was something that always seemed unclear to me as a kid. My parents would always say "pick your battles" when I got all worked up about a teacher treating us like shit. Like, you can't possibly beat the system, so it's a lot safer to be a quiet serf. Humility, obedience to authority, etc. Well bollocks to that!
Competition is a good thing as long as it doesn't go crazy. There was a good amount of competition in my school, I'd say.
That said, I was the 90 lb kid with the football. I didn't want it either, but hey, that's gym class for you.
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 29, 2011, 05:35:16 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:30:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:07:38 PM
"we need to raise kids with high self esteem" vibe going on in American education in the 80s/90s.
Fuck self-esteem. What's needed is fucking self respect, and that is accomplished not by lowering the standards in all things, but rather in finding what individual people are actually talented at, and reinforcing that. So, the kid is 90 pounds and can't throw a football? See if he's a better fit on the math team or in an art class, as far as aiming the kid at things to excel in.
And as far as suffering through gym class, well, life is tough and you have to try things you aren't good at. If you don't learn that at 8-12 years old, you are FUCKED when you blunder out into the real world, however delayed that might be these days.
That's a really good slicing of that idea, focusing on self-respect rather than self-esteem. I definitely don't see a lot of self-respect lessons being taught in school... that was something that always seemed unclear to me as a kid. My parents would always say "pick your battles" when I got all worked up about a teacher treating us like shit. Like, you can't possibly beat the system, so it's a lot safer to be a quiet serf. Humility, obedience to authority, etc. Well bollocks to that!
Competition is a good thing as long as it doesn't go crazy. There was a good amount of competition in my school, I'd say.
That said, I was the 90 lb kid with the football. I didn't want it either, but hey, that's gym class for you.
Any educational program should include a slice of misery.
Just saying.
TGRR,
Was also the 90 pound kid with 10 thumbs.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 05:36:55 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 29, 2011, 05:35:16 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:30:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:07:38 PM
"we need to raise kids with high self esteem" vibe going on in American education in the 80s/90s.
Fuck self-esteem. What's needed is fucking self respect, and that is accomplished not by lowering the standards in all things, but rather in finding what individual people are actually talented at, and reinforcing that. So, the kid is 90 pounds and can't throw a football? See if he's a better fit on the math team or in an art class, as far as aiming the kid at things to excel in.
And as far as suffering through gym class, well, life is tough and you have to try things you aren't good at. If you don't learn that at 8-12 years old, you are FUCKED when you blunder out into the real world, however delayed that might be these days.
That's a really good slicing of that idea, focusing on self-respect rather than self-esteem. I definitely don't see a lot of self-respect lessons being taught in school... that was something that always seemed unclear to me as a kid. My parents would always say "pick your battles" when I got all worked up about a teacher treating us like shit. Like, you can't possibly beat the system, so it's a lot safer to be a quiet serf. Humility, obedience to authority, etc. Well bollocks to that!
Competition is a good thing as long as it doesn't go crazy. There was a good amount of competition in my school, I'd say.
That said, I was the 90 lb kid with the football. I didn't want it either, but hey, that's gym class for you.
Any educational program should include a slice of misery.
Just saying.
TGRR,
Was also the 90 pound kid with 10 thumbs.
:lulz:
Sometimes I'm grateful my parents were tough on us. They never treated us like we were special snowflakes, and even though I had nasty health problems and my brother is clinically textbook (as in, they wrote the fucking book on him) ADHD, they rode our asses all through school about getting our work done.
Not doing well in math? Well, what's the issue? Let us help, if we can't help, we'll FIND someone that can help. You're not stupid, you're not "special ed", you're a kid who's having normal frustration at algebra. Let's fix this.
I was born with underdeveloped lungs, got pneumonia when I was 2 and then was diagnosed with asthma when I was 3. Schools tried to write me out of PE/Gym class because I was a "liability". My parents, again, went, "FUCK NO", gave me a fucking albuterol inhaler and told me to catch up. My brother got his ritalin and was told to do his fucking schoolwork. End of story.
But throughout what ever was dealt to us, they were there. They helped with our homework and projects, they yelled at us for being overdramatic (lawl) and smacked us when we needed to be smacked. They never BEAT us, but we got popped when we deserved it, fo sho.
We got dirty and ate dirt. We put our fingers in electrical sockets, we got head lice and chickenpox, and I first saw Rocky Horror Picture Show when I was 9. We all got 'the talk' from our parents, and given a box of condoms, which embarrassed the fuck out of us, but it worked.
All 3 of us work in specialized fields now and support ourselves, even though the economy bit my brother and sister in the ass a little too hard and they had to move back in with my parents. Shit happens. They're still working, and my sister is saving to get back out on her own.
Meanwhile, I see some of the girls I went to high school with, with 3 kids from different baby daddies, living on benefits with their parents still, and working some shit job waiting for "their lucky break". Other friends have killed themselves when shit didn't go right, which is terrible, but it makes me wonder where something went wrong somewhere.
Newsflash, there is no fucking "lucky break". Life sucks. I've had my fair share of bad cards dealt to me these past few years, and I will bitch and moan, sure, but I know there ain't shit I can do. All I can do is dust myself off and move on. I got my ass back in school while working 2 jobs, and I live on my own 1300 miles from where I started. It took me some hard knocks to realize that, and it won't stop me from crying when the next blow comes, but then what? Spit out yer teeth and get back up, right?
Sometimes I think that's why we were in martial arts growing up, not dance or soccer. Let the kids get the shit beat out of them, that'll teach them.
On the advertising note, I've read what Cram said (that we're largely resistant to it and perfectly aware when we're being sold things) and have found that to be common, aside from dumb bunnies you get in every generation.
Edit: http://digitalcommons.bryant.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=honors_marketing
QuoteBeard found that ethical consequences were more relevant for the 1977 students than the 2003 students. Generation Y college students are fairly skeptical toward advertising. Beard’s sample of college students appeared to question the accuracy of advertising and its truthfulness. Beard did find, however, that Generation Y college students recognized advertising as performing an important economic role. More so than the 1977 Larkin sample, Beard found that college students today believe strongly that advertising can persuade people to buy things that they should not. Beard’s findings relative to Larkin’s tended to support prior beliefs and conclusions about Generation Y in terms of skepticism towards advertising.
Another link that largely match what I, as a Gen Y'er, have experienced and noticed amongst my peers (too long to quote):
http://www2.honolulu.hawaii.edu/facdev/guidebk/teachtip/GenY.htm (this link focuses a lot on teaching Gen Y, and I've found a lot of it accurate as a student and coach/tutor, right down to the attention span)
edit for info/unnecessary yapping
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 05:27:41 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on November 29, 2011, 05:22:38 PM
Of course, I did have my eyes set on the rock star thing, and listening to the radio and being progressively more annoyed with what I heard, I figured any jackass could make it.
Sure, as long as there aren't a million other me's trying to do the same thing.
I was talking to a cabalmate the other day about finding a new hobby together.
What about painting?
Nah, there are so many painters out there, we couldn't compete.
What about making T-shirts?
No, there are like millions of people who make t-shirts.
What about XYZ
I don't know if that'd be rewarding, there's already such a large group of people producing XYZ
eventually I was like, dude, why do you feel you have to be the alpha supreme of whatever hobby we pick? Can't we just make t-shirts because it's fun, not because we want to make a million bucks? It'd be cool to see people wearing our gear, isn't that enough? I want a hobby, not a new job, damnit!
But Cram there are like millions of people out there having fun and they're all better at it than him.
:lulz:
Maybe he can find comfort if you find some activity that you can both SHINE in being the UTMOST MEDIOCRE AVERAGE practitioners of it?
You can boast,
NOBODY IS BOTH BETTER AND WORSE THAN MORE PEOPLE AS US!!!
And your friend will be happy for being the supreme medium at something, and you'll be happy because it'll be hilarious.
WATCH IT WATCH IT CAREFUL WITH THAT BRUSH
NO YOU FUCK
THAT WAS PERFECT
HERE LET ME WRECK IT A BIT FOR YOU
:lulz: ahhh I love you Trip
I'll suggest that he add mediocrity to his decision matrix :lulz:
People who think that they can only enjoy something if it gives them bragging rights tend to be complete and utter losers. Most people will never be "the best" or "the most unique" at ANYTHING they try, and if you let that fact prevent you from doing something you might enjoy, you will never accomplish anything at all.
I'd rather be pretty OK at ten things I like than THE BEST at something I hate, anyway.
Jack of all trades, master of none,
Certainly better than a master of one.
viva la generalist!
Uh, I'm pretty sure that's not what the point was, Ip.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 29, 2011, 09:16:25 PM
:lulz: ahhh I love you Trip
I'll suggest that he add mediocrity to his decision matrix :lulz:
Your call, man! I'm not touching that :P
Also that mission statement was messed up, I think I got it now:
WE'RE BOTH WORSE
AND BETTER AT THIS THAN MORE PEOPLE THAN
ANYBODY ELSE
WE ARE THE 50%
:lulz:
still quite convoluted. but it's not easy, being the men-in-the-middle !
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on November 29, 2011, 05:49:04 PM
Another link that largely match what I, as a Gen Y'er, have experienced and noticed amongst my peers (too long to quote):
http://www2.honolulu.hawaii.edu/facdev/guidebk/teachtip/GenY.htm (this link focuses a lot on teaching Gen Y, and I've found a lot of it accurate as a student and coach/tutor, right down to the attention span)
edit for info/unnecessary yapping
I believe I read that very memo as part of some training thing back when I was on a promising career path and had to deal with you jerk-faces in an academic setting on the daily (not enough Gin in the bathtub, I swear to god!). A couple of those rang, very, very true and may have prevented a choke out here and there (oh it's not them...it's just a millenial thing). One of my consistent favorites was the belief that there's always a way to get there from here. It's very admirable and not at all stupefyingly twisted, hardly never.
Millenial: Ummm...I need to change this grade.
Burn-Out: Well you'll need to talk to the instructor on that.
Millenial: Well I did, but he won't change it.
Burn-Out: Okay. Well, why are you asking to change it then? Is there some discrepancy or something? Is this an issue for the provost?
Millenial: No, I just need something higher than a D for my Business transfer application.
Burn-Out: ...So...ummm...were all of your assignments graded correctly?
Millenial: Yeah, of course.
Burn-Out: ...and there's no dispute with the percentages, or anything?
Millenial: Not that I could see.
Burn-Out: But you're asking for a better grade...because you
want a better grade???
Millenial: Oh wow. I'm sorry. I totally didn't explain my situation right. You see I'm trying to transfer into the Business department, but I need a B in this class so they'll accept my transfer, but I got a D and now I just need to figure out how to get that fixed.
Burn-Out: Well we don't just change grades. There's not really any way to do that. The instructor's word is really final on this.
Millenial: I know and that's why I'm here. I needed a B but the instructor gave me a D, but that's not going to work for me to transfer into business, so now I need to find out how to have it changed. Does that make sense? How can I do this?
Burn-Out: :blink: :blink: You can't.
Millenial: Look, I don't want to be disrespectful, but can I talk to someone else who knows how to get this grade changed, I need at least a B and so I need to talk to the person who can make that happen, obviously you don't know how to do it, but that's okay...I'll just wait while you get the person who can.
Burn-Out: :crackhead:
I've never been like that and think it's hilariously entitled. I've been known to protest a grade on an assignment, but never because it wasn't what I wanted (last time it was because my friend and I did the project together - same spellings, same locations on the map - and he got a higher grade than I did for reasons we couldn't figure out).
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on November 29, 2011, 11:47:24 PM
I've never been like that and think it's hilariously entitled. I've been known to protest a grade on an assignment, but never because it wasn't what I wanted (last time it was because my friend and I did the project together - same spellings, same locations on the map - and he got a higher grade than I did for reasons we couldn't figure out).
It was far from an isolated incident. Very strange, it struck me. Not the sense of entitlement...just the giving a shit. Slacker ass Gen-X and all that.
I'm a ridiculous slacker and I still can't imagine not caring. :lol:
That is exactly the result of the "everybody wins" mentality. The kids subjected to it growing up don't associate effort with reward, or failure with consequences. The actual answer for that kid, of course, is that he can get a better grade if he takes the class again and tries harder, but in his mind, he deserves a blue ribbon just for participating, so that solution would seem dumb and unfair to him.
Gah...this thread's gonna make me go diggin in the blog.
Another trait that popped out from that conversation, was the "If I am dissatisfied with the answer it is simply because I have not stated the question in the proper way. Obviously you do not understand the uniqueness of my situation."
Quote from: Nigel on November 30, 2011, 01:04:00 AM
That is exactly the result of the "everybody wins" mentality. The kids subjected to it growing up don't associate effort with reward, or failure with consequences. The actual answer for that kid, of course, is that he can get a better grade if he takes the class again and tries harder, but in his mind, he deserves a blue ribbon just for participating, so that solution would seem dumb and unfair to him.
Yeah, reading that kind of maddened me.
It's like, dude, what do you expect? You couldn't be arsed to do the work, and now you want me to fudge you, not just a couple of points, but two full letter grades? When I don't even have the power over that? Fuck that.
Now, there was once in my high school years that my Pre-cal teacher fudged me two extra points so that I would pass- otherwise I would get kept back. But he realized that my D- wouldn't make a whole lot of difference whereas my F would have. And I didn't ask him for it either (he was a young teacher and was otherwise friends with me and my friends. Really didn't see that one coming, lol). And of course, that was the teacher, who wouldn't have given it to me if it was a 55. If the teacher/prof says "this is your grade" you don't go and bitch to someone else who can't do anything about it.
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on November 30, 2011, 01:46:20 AM
Gah...this thread's gonna make me go diggin in the blog.
Another trait that popped out from that conversation, was the "If I am dissatisfied with the answer it is simply because I have not stated the question in the proper way. Obviously you do not understand the uniqueness of my situation."
Oh god.
The whole, I'm right, but just need validation thing. :x
BUT THIS IS ME! I'M THE MAIN CHARACTER!
\
:sadbanana:
That is an infuriating exchange... But speaking as a member of the Everyone's A Winner generation, I can say that if there was some magical ass-pull way to raise the grade, even if it involved doing a lot of the real work he should have done in the first place, he'd probably do it without complaint.
The thing is, even if we realize that we aren't entitled to succeed, there is this notion of entitlement to a second (or third, etc.) chance. There's less of the urgency to get it done right the first time. "Don't worry about screwing up, because you'll get a chance to do better later."
Which is, of course, horsecock.
:lulz: Speaking of being flat out given grades, my teacher, RIGHT NOW, is basically offering everyone a good one no matter what.
QuoteOne of my consistent favorites was the belief that there's always a way to get there from here
You can notice that a lot outside of an academic setting, too. For instance, military policy.
It's tempting to blame that kind of thing on videogames, since with a videogame, you can always, eventually, win. Unfortunately, in real life, you may make a losing choice and not realise you've made a losing choice until well after the point it can be rectified in any meaningful way.
However, since I see a lot of people in their 40s and 50s with this attitude, I think it is probably not a generational thing.
Quote from: Cain on November 30, 2011, 04:23:14 PM
QuoteOne of my consistent favorites was the belief that there's always a way to get there from here
You can notice that a lot outside of an academic setting, too. For instance, military policy.
It's tempting to blame that kind of thing on videogames, since with a videogame, you can always, eventually, win. Unfortunately, in real life, you may make a losing choice and not realise you've made a losing choice until well after the point it can be rectified in any meaningful way.
However, since I see a lot of people in their 40s and 50s with this attitude, I think it is probably not a generational thing.
No, I think that's the result of monkeys living in a universe that was not set up with their convenience in mind.
This whole thread, especially the talk about the Millennials, reminds me of the book Mindset (http://mindsetonline.com/) by Carol Dweck.
After researching why some people fall apart after failure and some people pull through, the author discovered and described two basic mindsets, the fixed mindset and the growth mindset.
The fixed minset sounds almost exactly the way the Millennials are described in this thread. They generally receive heavy praise for "talent" as a child, and start thinking that skill is something a person is born with. They do not pursue things that they "naturally" good at, and when they fail at something they take it as a sign to give up. I'm not saying that people with a fixed mindset aren't smart, because they usually are, generally excelling in grade school without much effort. But they give up easily on things they feel they aren't good at.
The growth mindset is opposite. People with this mindset generally receive praise not for talent but for process (e.g.: "I really like the way you went about attempting this problem"), so they think that skills are things that you have to work hard at to have. They tend to see failures /and/ successes as challenges for improvement, and will even pursue projects at which they fail often. Smarts are seen as something earned rather than given. The other hallmark of a growth mindset is that when these people get depressed, they work even harder to make themselves feel better. The fixed mindset makes people do less.
I most definitely fall in the fixed mindset, and I was born on the cusp of the millennial generation (1985). I can't remember a time I couldn't read, never had trouble with studies in early grade schools, and was often praised for being "smart" or "genius" or "talented". I took failures as a sign I shouldn't continue on a particular path, and wouldn't try something I felt I wasn't good at unless goaded constantly. For example, the guitar did not come easily to me, and once I discovered that it was a trial and tribulation to get me to practice. This sort of cycle has repeated constantly throughout my life because I would spurn challenges in things I thought I wasn't good at. When I get depressed, I give up. Learning about fixed versus growth mindset was really a revelation for me, because I started thinking about the real problem, that I didn't see my failures as challenges, that I saw failures as FOREVER, the last word on who I was as a person, and that my successes were only a result of some innate talent I had no control over.
That's the other thing. "Talent". What a load of hooey. All my worthwhile successes in this life have been massive undertakings of work and toil. If it doesn't seem like that, it's only because my passion for science has made it seem easy. I have no talent, and I've been kidding myself that I did in an effort to avoid real challenges. And guess what? Neither did Michael Jordan.
Quote from: Cain on November 30, 2011, 04:23:14 PM
QuoteOne of my consistent favorites was the belief that there's always a way to get there from here
You can notice that a lot outside of an academic setting, too. For instance, military policy.
It's tempting to blame that kind of thing on videogames, since with a videogame, you can always, eventually, win. Unfortunately, in real life, you may make a losing choice and not realise you've made a losing choice until well after the point it can be rectified in any meaningful way.
However, since I see a lot of people in their 40s and 50s with this attitude, I think it is probably not a generational thing.
Personally, I blame it on Kirk cheating on the Kobayashi Maru test...
Actually, that does make sense, and fits the timeline. Fucking Kirk...
Quote from: Cainad on November 30, 2011, 04:04:08 PM
That is an infuriating exchange... But speaking as a member of the Everyone's A Winner generation, I can say that if there was some magical ass-pull way to raise the grade, even if it involved doing a lot of the real work he should have done in the first place, he'd probably do it without complaint.
The thing is, even if we realize that we aren't entitled to succeed, there is this notion of entitlement to a second (or third, etc.) chance. There's less of the urgency to get it done right the first time. "Don't worry about screwing up, because you'll get a chance to do better later."
Which is, of course, horsecock.
Yeah, I don't think this particular student was looking for me or anyone else to do anything explicitly scheisty, just having a very difficult time with the concept of finality. There's a D, it's on my transcript, I need a B--therefore there has to be some solution...and to be honest, I saw several instances in which there were opportunities to un-fuck what has been fucked. In this particular instance, though, the instructor said the grade was final, there would be no make-up work or whatever, and that was just not something that could be grasped by the student.
I've noticed that Boomers and Millenials are much more likely than Gen-X to "can I see your manager?" when they don't get the answer they like--makes them in many ways much more effective at getting shit done, but in many other ways, annoying as a piss-trickle.
I do really think that my generation got gutpunched into feeling like there was nothing we could do, outside of sabotage. And you have probably noticed that many times when my generation has taken action, it has been in the form of sabotage. Wikileaks, for example.
And yours is GenX, right Nigel?
I'm 1980 which is just between neither but I can recognize more of the GenY traits in me than GenX, I get the feeling.
But honestly, you might as well describe my personality from my starsign (Virgo), it's all so fucking general, the events that supposedly "shaped" genX or genY, you can find examples 10 years earlier or later and rewrite them to apply differently.
When I read the descriptions of GenX or GenY, and especially GenY, I get the idea I'm reading a horoscope, like it could apply to anyone.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 01, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
...
When I read the descriptions of GenX or GenY, and especially GenY, I get the idea I'm reading a horoscope, like it could apply to anyone.
Yes.
it is particularly like the chinese zodiac where everyone born in the same year shares the same traits.
(do the school teachers in china say to themselves, "oh shit, we've got a batch of cocks coming in next year. i can't abide those little fuckers! I'm out!"?)