First two chapters
In defense of power.
1.
Adrian hits the club hard, walking in like he owns the place, and smiles big. He scans the room for a target and aquires multiple targets instantly. It's on.
A mixed group, men and women wanders past. One guy, drunk yells out "too many steroids bro!"
Adrian pretends he can't hear him properly. "you have too many haemmoroids?" he queries.
"I said you have too many steroroids," he yells again.
Adrian laughs; an honest sounding laugh, free of malice or pretense (seemingly).
"that makes a lot more sense bro," he says, "thought you were telling me you had haemmoroids."
Before the man can respond, Adrian's stepped forward and pushed out a hand. The man moves on impulse before he even realizes and extends his also. Adrian seizes it.
"Adrian" he says, pumping the guy's hand.
"Steve," says the guy, again on impulse.
Adrian looks up at the other three. He points.
"I think you look like a Rufus. You look like a Mandy. And you could be a Sarah. No... Actually yeah. How'd I do?"
"why the fuck am I Rufus?" says not-Rufus.
"Sarah's my suster's name" says not-Sarah.
"so I got one out of three," says Asrian, nodding at the one he called Mandy.
"I'm Jane," she says.
Adrian nods and looks at not-Rufus. "I'm Mark,"
He looks at not-Sarah (the hot one). "I'm Lucy," she says. Arian smiles, shakes ands with everyone and goes over his 'nice to meet you's before wishing them all a good night.
He walks towards the centre of the room and sees two girls; one looks korean, the other kind of European. They're sitting with a fat guy.
Adrian stops. He knows the fat guy. His name is Edwin. They used to hang out and drink beer in the afternoon. They played WoW on the same server for years. Adrian approaches.
"Edwin?" he asks. Edwin looks at him, looking confused.
"hey" Edwin says. He doesnt recognize him.
"it's Adrian man! How you been?"
Edwin's face morphs into amazement.
"holy fuck," he says, his voice almost a whisper. "Adrian! Holy shit."
"good to see you man," says Adrian. "you look well."
"now way man, you're the one who fuckin' looks well!" he turns back to the women. "this guy, this fuckin guy was like, twice my size when I saw him last."
"when was that?" asks probably Korean.
"about... Two years, three years ago..."
"three, yeah," says Adrian.
"how'd you do it?" asks hot Eutopean.
"I just haven't eaten for the last three years," he says earnestly and allows the girls a moment of shock before laughing and smiling, "nahh. I went to like some militant lardarse bootcamp and they beat done sense into me."
"that's what I should do," jokes Edwin, voice slightly forced. He's going for depreciating humor but he just sounds slightly pathetic. He knows he's been reduced to the side act and can't quote claw back to the top.
"well seriously man," he says, lowering his voice like theyre having a private chat, but loud enough to be heard by the women, "you're nowhere fuckin near where I was, like, heart attack danger zone, but it's worth doing. I can give you some names."
"yeah man, yeah" says Edwin nodding. He looks over at the women but seems to be short of conversation.
"how do you girls know this troublemaker?" says Adrian.
"just met him tonight." says probably Korean.
Adrian put his hand on Edwins shoulder and give him a playful shake. "Careful, he's a fox."
They chat for a while with Adrian directing most of the conversation. probably Korean is definayely Korean, though Australian born. Hot European is actually French Canadian and just coming down to visit.
He strings them along for a while and checks his watch.
"I'm going to make a move back home," he says, "need to feed the dog. I'll be back though, might see you all round."
Added chat, talking up the dog with a few funny anecdotes. The girls are interested.
"look," says Adrian, "I'm good to drive so if you want to meet the mongrel thing, I'll take you back to mine when I feed him and then bring you all back here if you like." there is a flurry of consent, and they all move along into his car. He has a nice car; clean, red and expensive.
They climb in. He allows them to choose sides. Edwin sits beside him in the drivers seat. Ideally he'd have sat in the back with the Asian girl, giving Adrian the hottie to hit on, but the awkwardness of his decision helps establish him as an Alpha type so he doesn't object.
They arrive at his house. The dog is inside, a fluffy puffed up creature. The girls pat it and chat for a bit.
Adrian talks to the Canadian. He goes kino; uses touch, putting his hand gently on the small of her back as he laughs and jokes. The other two make awkward conversation.
Adrian leans in to his girl and speaks into her ear.
"want me to show you what I used to look like?"
she nods. He grabs her hand and leads her into his bedroom.
This is easy from here. The routine plays itself. He picks up a photo of himself as a fatty and shows it to her, laughing with her about it. Then he takes her hand and says 'I went from that...' placing her hand on his abs, '...to this.' her fingers play with the ripped hard muscles of his stomach and he leans in to kiss her on the mouth. She is prepped and ready from the last half hour or so of physical teasing so She responds readily to his touch and releases herself to him.
He pushes her hard against the wall and takes little time to be kissing her neck, running his fingers down her side. In moments he's unclasped her bra and pulled off their shirt pushing her down hard on the bed. They pull off the rest of their clothes and make love, intensely, firmly on the bed. They finish and Adrian pulls out and ties the condom, throwing it at the bin. It hits.
They talk a little in whispers, hands playing across each-others bodies. She wants to get back to her friend. She dresses urgently and he dresses too, before going back out.
predictably Edwin and the Asian are right where he left them. Edwin is sulking like a puppy dog, the Korean is looking bored.
'fucking get over it' thinks Adrian. As if that fat fuck would know what to do with a woman if he had one.
They climb into the car and drive off. The Canadian gives her number. Adrian leaves, and never sees her again.
2.
Edwin sees Adrian again a few weeks later when he's getting lunch. He's by himself getting a burger.
Adrian is dining with a Japanese girl he's met out clubbing. He's enjoying the conversation, despite her stilted English. He's not even on the script right now; he doesn't know if hes going to get some and he doesn't give a shit.
Edwin is angry and has had time to stew in his bitterness. He sees Adrian with the girl and charges over to him.
"you fucking traitor!" he yells. People are turning to stare at them.
Adrian turns to look at Edwin for a few moments. His face is red and sweaty.
"Edwin," he says. "this is Michiko. Michiko this is Edwin. We went to school together."
"Michiko, hey" says Edwin, dismissively, then turns to Adrian. "you gonna fuck her too?"
"none of your fucking business," says Adrian.
He turns to the girl. "you want me to get this guy thrown out, or do you just want to catch up later?"
She looks faintly embarrassed. "I think we meet later," she says, excusing herself politely.
Adrian stares directly at Edwin.
"take a seat" he says.
Edwin pauses, then shakes his head.
"nah. I'm fine now. I said my piece. Some frie..."
"I havent." says Adrian. "so sit the fuck down."
Edwin hesitates, but sits. He looks uncomfortable now, having used up all his energy in a violent rage.
"not that you deserve it; but I'm getting a beer what do you drink?"
"I'm fine."
"the fuck you are. Gold?"
Edwin nods after aggressive prompting, and Adrian walks up to the bar, gets two beers and comes back, dumps one in front of Edwin.
"what the fuck did you go and do a thing like that for?" says Adrian.
"what do you think man? You ruined my night."
"what night? Last night? Night before that?"
"you know what night."
"ok, sure. I know. And what did I ruin?"
"they were my girls dude, things were going to well, and you came in and took them away from me."
Adrian laughs at him. "fuck off." he takes a drink. "like youd know what to do with a girl if you got one. You had every chance with that Korean chick. You could have sat with her in the car. You could have put your hand on her leg. You could have tacked yourserl into her oriental pants while I was fucking the other one, but you didn't."
"because you came up and made me look bad."
"no, you made yourself look bad because you're fat, your attitude sucks and you're socially retarded. It's easier for you to blame me than look at yourself honestly, so you come up here like an asshole, embarrass yourself in front of Michiko and make a bigass scene. What the fuck?"
Edwin is silent. He's fuming inside but he doesn't know how to respond. Eventually he makes a weak retort.
"you just took over my whole night man. You should have helped me out, not left you behind."
"why should I help you?"
"because... Because you're good at this stuff man, and I'm not."
"so I should help you because I'm better than you? At this?"
"man I don't have the... The skills you have..."
"... And you never will. Not if you stay too scared to try." Adrian drinks the last of his beer. "excuse me. My help is reserved for people who help themselves."
He leaves, and Edwin just sits there, fuming for what feels like ever.
Names have been altered to protect the innocent but Adrian is CLEARLY Lys.
Nobody else gets that much tail.
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 11, 2011, 03:44:35 AM
Names have been altered to protect the innocent but Adrian is CLEARLY Lys.
Nobody else gets that much tail.
:lulz:
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 11, 2011, 03:44:35 AM
Names have been altered to protect the innocent but Adrian is CLEARLY Lys.
Nobody else gets that much tail.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Placid Dingo, I REALLY hope you're posting this as a troll on at least one of the seduction/MLP boards. It's good in that way.
The concept is that edwin start up a gym for men like him, feeling that it's his duty to help those who haven't got their shit together. It fails, he turns evil and ends the storey locking all his clients and adrian in the basement at a ball and meets and greets on his own. There should be some mediations on power in there.
I'm aiming for over the top without bring completely unrealistic. I wanted to break down mundane things into concious power struggles too.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 12, 2011, 04:41:34 AM
The concept is that edwin start up a gym for men like him, feeling that it's his duty to help those who haven't got their shit together. It fails, he turns evil and ends the storey locking all his clients and adrian in the basement at a ball and meets and greets on his own. There should be some mediations on power in there.
I'm aiming for over the top without bring completely unrealistic. I wanted to break down mundane things into concious power struggles too.
It feels like the narration is totally supporting this Casanova asshole. Is there a character the reader is supposed to be supporting?
Honestly, so far to me it reads like PUA wish-fulfillment. I'm not saying that's what I think it is... but if I read it anywhere else, I would assume that the author was too involved in it.
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 12, 2011, 05:36:06 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 12, 2011, 04:41:34 AM
The concept is that edwin start up a gym for men like him, feeling that it's his duty to help those who haven't got their shit together. It fails, he turns evil and ends the storey locking all his clients and adrian in the basement at a ball and meets and greets on his own. There should be some mediations on power in there.
I'm aiming for over the top without bring completely unrealistic. I wanted to break down mundane things into concious power struggles too.
It feels like the narration is totally supporting this Casanova asshole. Is there a character the reader is supposed to be supporting?
Honestly, so far to me it reads like PUA wish-fulfillment. I'm not saying that's what I think it is... but if I read it anywhere else, I would assume that the author was too involved in it.
I'd like to set up Adrian as essentially a decent person, but I can totally see where the wish fulfillment thing is jarring.
I used a lot of the pua terminology conciously to try to point out that he's not just goin with it; he has an agenda and is trying to push it, but I can see how it's kind of pushing the territory of pua fantasy wank.
Adrian is a completely unsympathetic character who I think most of your readers will be hoping gets set on fire at some point. Also, any female readers will be full of horror that the women in your story are apparently brain-dead enough to be picked up by such a repulsive human being.
He's certainly in full-blown sociopath mode. But I can see the story skewing it towards the idea that he doesn't even realize it, and thinks he's only living in the world as it wants him to do. Which makes the world as twisted and emotionless as he is.
I also see the potential of introducing a female character as warped as he is, so as to give both sides of the story.
I would suggest a pen name along the lines of Rosemary Titsworth or Alyssa Durant.
I enjoyed this.
To add some constructive feedback, I think the power-plays need to be more explicit. You hit it dead on with the bit in the car, making them choose sides, feeling like an Alpha. This paragraph is really the spirit of it, right?
QuoteThey climb in. He allows them to choose sides. Edwin sits beside him in the drivers seat. Ideally he'd have sat in the back with the Asian girl, giving Adrian the hottie to hit on, but the awkwardness of his decision helps establish him as an Alpha type so he doesn't object.
I liked how you showed that Adrian thinks of everybody as objects, in his mind, it's only labels like "probably korean", he's thinking purely in terms of sex.
QuoteEdwin nods after aggressive prompting, and Adrian walks up to the bar, gets two beers and comes back, dumps one in front of Edwin.
This line - does he dump the beer ON Edwin, or does he just put it down in front of him kind of violently? kind of unclear
I think I might have missed the point if I wasn't passingly familiar with pickup artist techniques. You might make that a bit more explicit by revealing Adrian's inner monologue, having him explicitly think of these techniques while he's working them.
anyway, overall, enjoyable piece! But I feel like the ending still needs something. You've shown the relationship between these two characters, now I want to know where it's going... what their chemistry produces, and what's going to make them change.
I don't want to see them change or grow out of their idiocy.
I HATE stories of redemption.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 12, 2011, 08:46:54 PM
I don't want to see them change or grow out of their idiocy.
I HATE stories of redemption.
Well, I have bad news for you.
So far, this is following formula #3 of Romance Novels, only with the gender roles reversed.
I would love it if you threw in a bit showing how Adrian reacts when he encounters someone his manipulation doesn't work on... my experience has been that such people by nature restrict their social circle to people it does work on, and avoid those who see through it or don't respond favorably to it like the plague. It limits them, usually, to a fairly low social strata... kind of a big fish in a small pond effect. In my experience, as soon as they encounter a person or social group who challenges them, they literally turn around and walk away, and pretend that it didn't happen, because to engage would not only cause them to lose face, but it would also challenge their idea of how the world, and the people in it, works.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 12, 2011, 08:46:54 PM
I don't want to see them change or grow out of their idiocy.
I HATE stories of redemption.
redemption's not necessary,
but without change, it's not a story, it's a description
Quote from: Cramulus on December 12, 2011, 09:05:09 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 12, 2011, 08:46:54 PM
I don't want to see them change or grow out of their idiocy.
I HATE stories of redemption.
redemption's not necessary,
but without change, it's not a story, it's a description
Cram makes a very good point.
Balls. It's completely possible to tell a story based around how someone's inability to change keeps fucking their life harder and harder.
In other words, change must be present for there to be a story, but the change doesn't have to come from the characters.
Thanks so much for feedback. I appreciate.
I'm not writing a romance or a redemption story; I really just wanted to look at the structures of power on a mundane/everyday level and thought that this was the way to do it. Nobody is redeemed; Adrian becomes a bit less of a prat I think and Edwin becomes a complete asshole. I wasn't planning any real romance either.
Nigel, you are right about the Adrian character. I don't want either to be overly likable but need to make sure its worth reading. I'm not sure how to deal with the fact that the opening sequence very much is alienating to female readers, given the intended plot. I also like the idea of that sequence with Adrian failing.
LMNO, I'm thinking based off what I'm being told from every angle I do need a female character. I just don't want to stuff someone in who has no functional role in the plot (otherwise we get a female whose job is to stand around and be female because the diagraphic demanded it (See also the Sherlock Holmes film, and every mainstream non-romance ever). So I'll have to play around with the plot a bit.
Cram thanks for the feedback, that's useful. You're right about the dehumanising terminology. I'll clear up the sequence in the bar. ATM we're going to do a 'In a years time' jump, but I'm not sure if that's the best option. We'll see.
Does your story have a point? A moral? Or is it just a story?
There's a point. It's meant to try to illustrate a certain brand of rationalization about power structures.
Edwin starts powerless (not confident, attractive, charismatic etc)
He develops his power by developing these attributes and acts off the belief that power has an obligation to the powerless; the gym he runs sponsors ten other guys intimately with weight loss, people skills etc.
Its a clusterfuck; he gives up and ultimately takes a zero-sum attitude, literally locking away his clients and adrian in the final sequence.
So it's meant to try to look into the mentality of power structures but by examining how they might wOrk on a micro scale, rather than a world power scale.
Hm. I will reserve judgement until I have read the whole thing. One question though; are any of your characters intended to be sympathetic?
It is sort of shaping up to look like a Neil LaBute play.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 14, 2011, 06:31:31 PM
It is sort of shaping up to look like a Neil LaBute play.
Ahahaha. Ahahahahahahaha!
Yes. Please, burn him.
I want the characters to be sympathetic enough that you don't just say 'fuck this' and stop reading. But they're not meant to be wonderful people.
Lmno, I'm not sure how to take that. Even my wiki Fu failed me.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 14, 2011, 10:31:11 PM
I want the characters to be sympathetic enough that you don't just say 'fuck this' and stop reading. But they're not meant to be wonderful people.
Lmno, I'm not sure how to take that. Even my wiki Fu failed me.
"Wicker Man".
And other films in which none of the characters have the slightest redeeming attributes.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 13, 2011, 07:52:05 AM
I'm not writing a romance or a redemption story;
Trust your spiritual adviser...I used to edit romance novels. And that's a romance novel, with the genders reversed. There's about 6 basic styles of romance novel, and that's #3.
Quote from: Nigel on December 14, 2011, 10:49:29 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 14, 2011, 10:31:11 PM
I want the characters to be sympathetic enough that you don't just say 'fuck this' and stop reading. But they're not meant to be wonderful people.
Lmno, I'm not sure how to take that. Even my wiki Fu failed me.
"Wicker Man".
And other films in which none of the characters have the slightest redeeming attributes.
I will check it out, but what I'm wondering is, 'does it work'.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 02:19:09 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 13, 2011, 07:52:05 AM
I'm not writing a romance or a redemption story;
Trust your spiritual adviser...I used to edit romance novels. And that's a romance novel, with the genders reversed. There's about 6 basic styles of romance novel, and that's #3.
Could you please just humor me for a tick and explain what you mean? Nobody falls in love with anybody. I'm just really not sure what kind of plot you're referring to or what about it screams romance.
That said, I don't have any strong feeling about what genre someone else thinks in working in, I'm just looking to understand what you're saying.
Quote from: Nigel on December 14, 2011, 10:49:29 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 14, 2011, 10:31:11 PM
I want the characters to be sympathetic enough that you don't just say 'fuck this' and stop reading. But they're not meant to be wonderful people.
Lmno, I'm not sure how to take that. Even my wiki Fu failed me.
"Wicker Man".
And other films in which none of the characters have the slightest redeeming attributes.
Is that the one where Nicholas Cage shouts "Not the bees, not the bees!" ?
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 03:34:27 AM
Could you please just humor me for a tick and explain what you mean?
After tonight? No, actually. :lulz:
Tony Montana,
Doesn't listen to no fugging Cubanos, hey?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:36:11 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 03:34:27 AM
Could you please just humor me for a tick and explain what you mean?
After tonight? No, actually. :lulz:
Tony Montana,
Doesn't listen to no fugging Cubanos, hey?
FFS.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 03:46:03 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:36:11 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 03:34:27 AM
Could you please just humor me for a tick and explain what you mean?
After tonight? No, actually. :lulz:
Tony Montana,
Doesn't listen to no fugging Cubanos, hey?
FFS.
Oh, I'm sorry. Did I react in less than the penitent style demanded by your outrage? :lulz:
I just expected something more than 'your said something mean in an unrelated thread so I'm punishing you by refusing to clarify a point in this one.'
But I suppose I will consent to meekly submitting to my punishment...
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 04:07:32 AM
I just expected something more than 'your said something mean in an unrelated thread so I'm punishing you by refusing to clarify a point in this one.'
I'm a simple man, really.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 04:07:32 AM
But I suppose I will consent to meekly submitting to my punishment...
Goddammit. What the hell is it with you upside down fuckers? Either brawl or don't. Don't get a guy all ready for a flamewar and then fucking quit. Fuck. This is just as bad as Lies.
I can be as unreasonable a prick as the best of them. Just, you know. One thread. Apple talk. Let's not accidentally the whole forum.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 04:13:27 AM
I can be as unreasonable a prick as the best of them. Just, you know. One thread. Apple talk. Let's not accidentally the whole forum.
Jesus. Have you never been in a fucking bar fight? You do not confine it to the stools of yourself and your opponent.
There's fucking
rules about this shit. Did fucking Napoleon worry about who else got hurt at Crecy? You're fucking A right he didn't.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:16:11 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 04:13:27 AM
I can be as unreasonable a prick as the best of them. Just, you know. One thread. Apple talk. Let's not accidentally the whole forum.
Jesus. Have you never been in a fucking bar fight? You do not confine it to the stools of yourself and your opponent.
There's fucking rules about this shit. Did fucking Napoleon worry about who else got hurt at Crecy? You're fucking A right he didn't.
Um.... But.... :(
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 04:22:00 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:16:11 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 04:13:27 AM
I can be as unreasonable a prick as the best of them. Just, you know. One thread. Apple talk. Let's not accidentally the whole forum.
Jesus. Have you never been in a fucking bar fight? You do not confine it to the stools of yourself and your opponent.
There's fucking rules about this shit. Did fucking Napoleon worry about who else got hurt at Crecy? You're fucking A right he didn't.
Um.... But.... :(
WHAT?
Wasn't Crecy a bit... early for Napoleon?
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 04:22:45 AM
Wasn't Crecy a bit... early for Napoleon?
Okay, fucking Agincourt. You know what I mean.
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 04:23:47 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:23:16 AM
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 04:22:45 AM
Wasn't Crecy a bit... early for Napoleon?
Okay, fucking Agincourt. You know what I mean.
Um.
WAT
I'M TRYING TO FLAME, HERE
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:24:52 AM
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 04:23:47 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:23:16 AM
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 04:22:45 AM
Wasn't Crecy a bit... early for Napoleon?
Okay, fucking Agincourt. You know what I mean.
Um.
WAT
I'M TRYING TO FLAME, HERE
AT LEAST GET YOER ANALGOIES RIGHT
This isn't a bar fight. This isn't even a fight. This is the Internet, and for some fucking reason I'm still responding. Anyway. Bah. This thread was useful while it lasted, and I'll throw some more at it in a few weeks and try my luck.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 04:27:27 AM
This isn't a bar fight. This isn't even a fight. This is the Internet, and for some fucking reason I'm still responding. Anyway. Bah. This thread was useful while it lasted, and I'll throw some more at it in a few weeks and try my luck.
nobody likes to play anymore
:cry:
It'll be okay, dude.
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 04:30:44 AM
It'll be okay, dude.
NO! IT WILL NEVER BE OKAY EVER AGAIN! IT'S ALL FUCKING RUINED!
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 04:33:44 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:31:19 AM
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 04:30:44 AM
It'll be okay, dude.
NO! IT WILL NEVER BE OKAY EVER AGAIN! IT'S ALL FUCKING RUINED!
What? No it won't. Don't say that.
And after that brilliant and timely quote about Napoleon's victory over the English in the hundred years war, too.
:cry:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:35:17 AM
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 04:33:44 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:31:19 AM
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 04:30:44 AM
It'll be okay, dude.
NO! IT WILL NEVER BE OKAY EVER AGAIN! IT'S ALL FUCKING RUINED!
What? No it won't. Don't say that.
And after that brilliant and timely quote about Napoleon's victory over the English in the hundred years war, too.
:cry:
Well, if your analogies were maybe right...
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 14, 2011, 10:31:11 PM
Lmno, I'm not sure how to take that. Even my wiki Fu failed me.
I was thinking more along the lines of "In the Company of Men" and "The Shape of Things".
I forget he did "Wicker Man". What the hell happened
there?
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 15, 2011, 03:35:52 AM
Quote from: Nigel on December 14, 2011, 10:49:29 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 14, 2011, 10:31:11 PM
I want the characters to be sympathetic enough that you don't just say 'fuck this' and stop reading. But they're not meant to be wonderful people.
Lmno, I'm not sure how to take that. Even my wiki Fu failed me.
"Wicker Man".
And other films in which none of the characters have the slightest redeeming attributes.
Is that the one where Nicholas Cage shouts "Not the bees, not the bees!" ?
I think so. I haven't seen the remake but I hear that it's even worse than the original which is hard to believe.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 14, 2011, 09:29:30 AM
There's a point. It's meant to try to illustrate a certain brand of rationalization about power structures.
Edwin starts powerless (not confident, attractive, charismatic etc)
He develops his power by developing these attributes and acts off the belief that power has an obligation to the powerless; the gym he runs sponsors ten other guys intimately with weight loss, people skills etc.
Its a clusterfuck; he gives up and ultimately takes a zero-sum attitude, literally locking away his clients and adrian in the final sequence.
So it's meant to try to look into the mentality of power structures but by examining how they might wOrk on a micro scale, rather than a world power scale.
Wait... is Adrian supposed to be confident and attractive, and not a slimy douche?
Also, why are all the women in the story essentially furniture?
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 04:27:27 AM
This isn't a bar fight. This isn't even a fight. This is the Internet, and for some fucking reason I'm still responding. Anyway. Bah. This thread was useful while it lasted, and I'll throw some more at it in a few weeks and try my luck.
I would love to read some more of the story. Is this going to go on your blog?
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 15, 2011, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 14, 2011, 10:31:11 PM
Lmno, I'm not sure how to take that. Even my wiki Fu failed me.
I was thinking more along the lines of "In the Company of Men" and "The Shape of Things".
I forget he did "Wicker Man". What the hell happened there?
I am guessing a psychotic break.
Quote from: Cramulus on December 15, 2011, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 04:27:27 AM
This isn't a bar fight. This isn't even a fight. This is the Internet, and for some fucking reason I'm still responding. Anyway. Bah. This thread was useful while it lasted, and I'll throw some more at it in a few weeks and try my luck.
I would love to read some more of the story. Is this going to go on your blog?
I'd like to read more, if only to see if any of the women develop a brain or a personality, and also in the hope that everyone dies in the end.
To clarify about the women, what is alienating is not the lack of a female character... you don't really need one... but the fact that the women who already appear in the story just sort of do whatever Adrian wants them to. In reality, there are women who are that easily manipulatable, but it's kind of a bottom-of-the-barrel situation, with only the dumbest and most desperate (or drug addicted) girls being that malleable. You can walk into any bar and see Adrian-types hitting on the bottom feeders, but if they try to approach the smarter girls they get made fun of or ignored. I have sat with my friends completely openly mocking douches who were trying to pull NLP/seduction/"caahnfidence" crap. It just doesn't work on the majority of people, and so it is completely unrealistic to depict the women in your story as unthinking cows who simply do as they're directed by the supposed "alpha male" who is actually exhibiting complete loser dork behavior which would get him SQUASHED in real life. He's like a caricature of what basement-dwelling WoW players think successful alpha males are supposed to act like... the exact reason that the seduction-technique eBook scam artists are able to make money off so many clueless desperate guys.
Just pointing this out. It's still early in the story so it's hard to know what exactly the effect is you're going for, but I am totally picturing these guys at the New Copper Penny hitting on brain-fried tweaker girls who are automatically willing to suck the cock of whoever buys them a drink and a baggie of meth.
Basically writing a pickup scene is new to me.
Adrian is confident and attractive. He's also a slimy deuce. He is meant to be successful with women. He's very far removed from what I'm like as a person, or people I know as more than aqusintances, so I'm sure there's parts where I miss the mark with his character.
Adrian is meant to be the kind of guy who can pretty much end up taking home a beautiful girl every night. The opening sequence relies on tight pacing, which really ends up portraying the girls as dumb cattle, which I didnt pick up on at first.
I can readily agree with the women problem; it's meant to portray a real world (albiet with larger than life figures) but it's not meant to rewrite the nature of feminity. So I'll work to redress that, probably by throwing around the kind of female figures that you and LMNO have mentioned.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 15, 2011, 09:38:52 PM
Basically writing a pickup scene is new to me.
Adrian is confident and attractive. He's also a slimy deuce. He is meant to be successful with women. He's very far removed from what I'm like as a person, or people I know as more than aqusintances, so I'm sure there's parts where I miss the mark with his character.
Adrian is meant to be the kind of guy who can pretty much end up taking home a beautiful girl every night. The opening sequence relies on tight pacing, which really ends up portraying the girls as dumb cattle, which I didnt pick up on at first.
I can readily agree with the women problem; it's meant to portray a real world (albiet with larger than life figures) but it's not meant to rewrite the nature of feminity. So I'll work to redress that, probably by throwing around the kind of female figures that you and LMNO have mentioned.
The thing is, that guy doesn't exist as such. There are people who think they're that guy, such as Lysergic, whose reality tunnel causes him to view himself as "awesome and smooth and picking up beautiful women every night" while other people view him as a kind of creepy con artist who sleeps with meth hos.
I mean, maybe this is just my reality tunnel making me say this, but your belief in the existence of people like Adrian, who are 100% fake and yet manage to be admired by everyone around them, seems really naive. The schtick just doesn't work on everyone... it works on people who are themselves a bit dumb and a bit pathetic. The only way for Adrian to remain a big fish is to stay in the smallest pond, otherwise someone smarter and more socially adept will call him on his shit, and that would challenge his reality tunnel. It's like that guy who's totally the biggest baddest methiest tweaker in the trailer park; he may be admired as long as he stays where he is but if he leaves the trailer park people will look down on him.
See what I'm saying?
I do see. He doesn't need to be übermensch. But I do think there are guys out there who's interactions are finely tuned towards getting what they want, and are often successful, based on people I've known and observed. He doesnt need to be successful at everything and attractive to everyone, and I imagine that there'd be plenty of people to describe him as a creepy con artist who I just haven't given voice to, and maybe that should be addressed later in the work.
There's a huge difference between "interactions are finely tuned towards getting what they want" and "manipulative poseur" though. My interactions are finely tuned towards getting what I want, because I want it. We all want what we want and people who are more socially adept are more likely to get what we want... but that's different from being a calculating and manipulative sociopath.
I can tell you that my last boyfriend is calculating and manipulative, and uses people. He's kind of socially awkward though, so he doesn't often get what he wants. In stark contrast, Space Cowboy is the golden boy who always gets his way because people adore him and he is a social genius... but he's not faking. He's really an awesome person who cares about people and doesn't use them.
The moment you depicted Adrian as being calculating and predatory, you limit him because your readers with a higher level of social acuity peg him exactly. He's that guy. The one who goes to the second-rate parties and clubs because he can't pull it off at the first-rate ones. If you shoot him down or if you're more socially dominant he pretends to ignore you while harboring a secret fantasy of knocking you down and stealing your pedestal.
If you actually want to portray power, real social power, he would have to be a better person. What you are describing there is not an alpha male; he's a natural beta who is trying to come off as alpha. People above him in the social hierarchy can smell that, and it's gross.
I think you could go places with this, and that the story would be an awesome seduction forum troll. Especially if you kill him and that whiny Edwin dude off in the end. Preferably with fire, but maybe with scorpions and solvent.
Also, and this is important: An anti-hero should be someone you can hate. To hate him, you have to in some manner identify with him, in a way that makes you feel all icky.
Adrian just makes me want to "leave the room"...IE, stop reading.
I'll play with his character. There's some ideas I want to talk about in general terms, but I'll start a new thread for that.
The chapter flows fine, capturing interest in the reader. I hope to read more of your written work here at http://www.principiadiscordia.com