this morning i spent about four hours with my 18-month-old daughter Liza while her mum went off to do something on her own (for once, for crying out loud!)
for the time being, these still quite rare occasions, which started very tentatively when she was about 8 months old, have been periods which require me to devote my full attention to her practically all the time
but recently she has been leaving base for increasing periods up to even half an hour when the siblings are around, and this morning, too, for a while she was quite content to find solitary activities for herself with me hovering discreetly in the background
but then, say 90 minutes in, she realised that mum was not around and was not to be had either at a moments notice, had a little cry and asked me to pick her up
i did this and went about my business with baby on hip, asking about once every ten minutes whether she would like to be put down, which she always turned down with great clarity and determination
then she told me she was hungry and wanted some potato, so i told her okay, but i would have to put her down in order to get some potatos out, get a saucepan, etc. etc., in great detail
she said yes, okay
so i put her on the floor and got to it quick, and she watched me with great interest and did not start complaining
but when i finished and sat down at the computer (probably aiming to look at your bloody junk or add to it), she immediately came up to me and asked to be picked up
so i started experimenting and found after about 8-10 trials that Liza is much more likely to let go of me for a few minutes if this is in order to allow me to do "work" - but work for her involves manipulating and moving objects continually
when i tried to work on the computer, even standing up, she immediately cut in and demanded to be picked up
the same if i just sat still or stood still, and the same, though only after a considerate pause of about thirty seconds, if i was on the phone
strange, ha?
could something like a propensity for acting as if she thought "it pays off to let primary caretaker get on with stuff every now and then even if i feel pretty scared and lonely" be hardwired, primate stuff?
Well, she let you get on with making food for her because, you were making food for her.
She isn't happy with you being on the computer because you staring at a screen doesn't meet any of her infant needs, which at 8 months are pretty much feed me, play with me, nurture me. She will be keen with your "work" as long as she can perceive it is "work" that is meeting one of those needs.
Get a Baby Bjorn carrier and indulge her attachment needs until she feels secure.
Do NOT continue to play the "ask her permission" game with her.
Or shut off the computer, put down the phone, and build block towers all over the place.
I think a lot of primates carry the baby on their backs until proper attachment has occurred and the baby is ready to be independent on its own. I'm pretty sure the males take turns as well being caregiver.
It's normal. Just don't let it become a manipulation tool or she'll be a miserable adult in her relationships.
Quote from: RWHN on January 12, 2012, 08:34:05 PM
Or shut off the computer, put down the phone, and build block towers all over the place.
Agreed. It's especially important for females to know that they're a priority to daddy or she will grow up settling for men who treat her like trash and learn to use whining and guilt to get love from them.
That, and just nurturing and instilling the joy of playing. When we lose that, we're fucked.
Wow, 18 months is a little old to still be a hip baby. She's walking and mobile right? Most kids do not want to be held constantly once they obtain their own mobility.
If she is developmentally ok and there are no issues, she should be able to self entertain for small amounts of time with the proper stimulation. Sit her on the floor with a few pots and wooden spoons and let her bang them and amuse herself!
Yeah but dad isn't primary caregiver. Her insecurity is normal because she isn't confident that daddy is available to meet her needs and her routine is being upset.
Dad needs to make it clear that he's plugged in while still being firm about his needs. He should be having dialogue with her: "now I'm going to put you in your high chair and you're going to watch daddy cook these noodles." At no point should she be rebuffed in favor of a computer at this point in their relationship. She should be included in his activities until mom gets home.
Ahh, missed that the kid was 18 months, I thought she was 8 months. That puts a new spin on it. Probably some understandable insecurity, plus at 18 months, they probably know that the computer and phone are distractions for adults, which means drawing attention away from the kiddo.
Quote from: navkat on January 12, 2012, 08:32:30 PM
Get a Baby Bjorn carrier and indulge her attachment needs until she feels secure.
i don't know what you're referring to, but at the last count, we had five different baby-carrying devices around the house:
a mei-tai, a flexible cloth carrier (admittedly, she outgrew that one long ago), an inflexible cloth carrier, a modern contraption that is called a kangaroo today and a weird piece of plastic with a very wide belt which serves as a kind of hip-perch
i was the proof-reader of the hungarian translation of the continuum concept and have been an attachment parent for about 15 years
Quote from: navkat on January 12, 2012, 08:32:30 PM
Do NOT continue to play the "ask her permission" game with her.
thanks for that, really
Quote from: RWHN on January 12, 2012, 08:27:24 PM
Well, she let you get on with making food for her because, you were making food for her.
funny you should say that because i had the same notion
and tried a number of other object-shifting activities, including entirely senseless ones involving objects she hasn't seen, and that still held her at bay
Quote from: RWHN on January 12, 2012, 08:27:24 PM
She isn't happy with you being on the computer because you staring at a screen doesn't meet any of her infant needs, which at 8 months are pretty much feed me, play with me, nurture me. She will be keen with your "work" as long as she can perceive it is "work" that is meeting one of those needs.
well funny you should say that....
just sitting or standing still, attention on her and talking to her, but not holding, was not good enough, but the moment i started fiddling with objects, she settled a bit
and before you start assuming that i do cruel experiments with my daughter, every 1-minute trial was followed by 10-15 minutes of holding and getting on with stuff in perfect cooperation
Quote from: navkat on January 12, 2012, 08:42:42 PM
Agreed. It's especially important for females to know that they're a priority to daddy or she will grow up settling for men who treat her like trash and learn to use whining and guilt to get love from them.
that is a preposterous inference to draw!
did you not just lecture me on science and critical thinking before, elsewhere?
perhaps you didn't
Quote from: RWHN on January 12, 2012, 08:44:18 PM
That, and just nurturing and instilling the joy of playing. When we lose that, we're fucked.
that, on the other hand, is the perfect truth
Quote from: Khara on January 12, 2012, 08:47:48 PM
Wow, 18 months is a little old to still be a hip baby. She's walking and mobile right? Most kids do not want to be held constantly once they obtain their own mobility.
as i said, dear attentive reader, mummy was out of the house and not to be had for 4 hours (!!!!)
at other times, she is perfectly alright, walks, runs, climbs ladders (and jumps into beanbags from slightly worrying heights), talks, jokes - pretty cool, actually
Quote from: Khara on January 12, 2012, 08:47:48 PM
If she is developmentally ok and there are no issues, she should be able to self entertain for small amounts of time with the proper stimulation. Sit her on the floor with a few pots and wooden spoons and let her bang them and amuse herself!
as i say, this sort of thing works just fine in most situations
but this was a special situation
Quote from: navkat on January 12, 2012, 08:58:45 PM
Yeah but dad isn't primary caregiver. Her insecurity is normal because she isn't confident that daddy is available to meet her needs and her routine is being upset.
Dad needs to make it clear that he's plugged in while still being firm about his needs. He should be having dialogue with her: "now I'm going to put you in your high chair and you're going to watch daddy cook these noodles." At no point should she be rebuffed in favor of a computer at this point in their relationship. She should be included in his activities until mom gets home.
which was what happened, basically
i just noticed (or seemed to notice) that when i tell her i need to put her down, and she agrees, then, afterwards, the amount of time she is prepared to spend entertaining herself is dependent on the kind of movements i am doing (which she is observing) in a slightly strange way
which is what i was asking about
as to how to deal with babies, with this fourth one, i am confident i am pretty good at it
I think it is just too "passive" to watch a dude who is on the computer.
When my daughter was younger, I would sometimes check the weird (not the weird weird mind you) world of the internet with her. Then there were no problems.
I would explain what was going on and even though she could not understand anything I was saying, she was quite happy, because there was talking and she was noticed to be there and so on.
So like if there is not anything going on, they will demand it.
She never complained when I was painting the walls or doing the dishes, for example.
She saw me with a paintbrush and started to play with her toys.
She saw me just sitting there and started to wonder: "Is something wrong here?"
Or something. I never thought about these things.
Quote from: Reeducation on January 13, 2012, 08:16:08 AM
I think it is just too "passive" to watch a dude who is on the computer.
When my daughter was younger, I would sometimes check the weird (not the weird weird mind you) world of the internet with her. Then there were no problems.
I would explain what was going on and even though she could not understand anything I was saying, she was quite happy, because there was talking and she was noticed to be there and so on.
So like if there is not anything going on, they will demand it.
She never complained when I was painting the walls or doing the dishes, for example.
She saw me with a paintbrush and started to play with her toys.
She saw me just sitting there and started to wonder: "Is something wrong here?"
Or something. I never thought about these things.
yep
i think that's what i was on about
and my recent experiments suggest that it doesn't have to be meaningful work, as long as it looks like work
which suggests a sort of sphexishness i had not expected in the being with the single most plastic mind in the known universe (human babies)
Are you putting shit out there to actually discuss or are you doing it just to argue?
Quote from: navkat on January 13, 2012, 09:49:33 AM
Are you putting shit out there to actually discuss or are you doing it just to argue?
to discuss, most definitely
this one in particular, as i am completely open-ended about it
but still packing boxes, sorry, back my evening
Based on what Reeducation said on showing her the Internet, even if she didn't really understand, how about next time, if you need to work on the computer, you pretend she's helping you? Do your work but also talk, explain what you're doing, etc.
It doesn't need to be real or thorough or complete, but it might even have a positive effect for you, as explaining what you're doing, even to someone who won't understand it, often boosts problem solving skills. Dunno how well that applies for your typing/translation job, but it does work in a lot of situations, not just computer programming (for me).
Just don't expose her to singing cat videos on YouTube. My wife made that mistake with my son once. He's just finally gotten over the need to see those things every time someone is on the family computer.
Quote from: holist on January 13, 2012, 06:36:46 AM
Quote from: Khara on January 12, 2012, 08:47:48 PM
Wow, 18 months is a little old to still be a hip baby. She's walking and mobile right? Most kids do not want to be held constantly once they obtain their own mobility.
as i said, dear attentive reader, mummy was out of the house and not to be had for 4 hours (!!!!)
at other times, she is perfectly alright, walks, runs, climbs ladders (and jumps into beanbags from slightly worrying heights), talks, jokes - pretty cool, actually
Quote from: Khara on January 12, 2012, 08:47:48 PM
If she is developmentally ok and there are no issues, she should be able to self entertain for small amounts of time with the proper stimulation. Sit her on the floor with a few pots and wooden spoons and let her bang them and amuse herself!
as i say, this sort of thing works just fine in most situations
but this was a special situation
I'm terribly sorry, I thought
you were her
father and that you had other children, which would have given you some experience in child rearing. My attention to what you have written must be off. I presumed,
as her father, you had actually spent time with your child on a fairly regular basis and didn't have to treat a mere four hours as an OMG emergency how do I deal with my toddler kind of thing. At that age, most children know both of their parents if they are active in their lives and they are fairly interchangable.
Again, I apologize, carry on. Maybe take one of those babysitting classes or something.
Quote from: Khara on January 13, 2012, 02:40:25 PM
Quote from: holist on January 13, 2012, 06:36:46 AM
Quote from: Khara on January 12, 2012, 08:47:48 PM
Wow, 18 months is a little old to still be a hip baby. She's walking and mobile right? Most kids do not want to be held constantly once they obtain their own mobility.
as i said, dear attentive reader, mummy was out of the house and not to be had for 4 hours (!!!!)
at other times, she is perfectly alright, walks, runs, climbs ladders (and jumps into beanbags from slightly worrying heights), talks, jokes - pretty cool, actually
Quote from: Khara on January 12, 2012, 08:47:48 PM
If she is developmentally ok and there are no issues, she should be able to self entertain for small amounts of time with the proper stimulation. Sit her on the floor with a few pots and wooden spoons and let her bang them and amuse herself!
as i say, this sort of thing works just fine in most situations
but this was a special situation
I'm terribly sorry, I thought you were her father and that you had other children, which would have given you some experience in child rearing. My attention to what you have written must be off. I presumed, as her father, you had actually spent time with your child on a fairly regular basis and didn't have to treat a mere four hours as an OMG emergency how do I deal with my toddler kind of thing. At that age, most children know both of their parents if they are active in their lives and they are fairly interchangable.
Again, I apologize, carry on. Maybe take one of those babysitting classes or something.
first of all, i am sorry to have offended you, Khara
had i realised that you would respond with what i perceive as controlled, cold and condescending hostility to what i intended as slight sarcasm, i would have remained entirely formal/friendly
we are i would say fairly committed but kind of level-headed attachment parents: Liza was constantly in her mother's company (as in always near and always available within a few seconds, sometimes a minute or two, if she demanded her presence) for the first 8 months of her life, which she seemed to like and thrive on as much as her older half-brothers used to - my kids
from the moment my oldest son was born 16 years ago, even slightly earlier, i had severe misgivings about the childrearing methods that i have seen in practice around me
then i found the continuum concept and now i can say we try to apply the continuum notion to living in a patchwork family in an atomised, simultaneously pre- and post-industrial civilization that is having some serious teething problems
i am a self-employed translator working from home: i am pretty much on hand all the time
i cannot compete on the titty front, but apart from that, i am in pretty close second place after that Goddess of a wife of mine, who is, and Liza continuously makes sure that this is clear, her primary provider
as Liza is still getting about half her nutrition from breastfeeding, we are not yet interchangeable
starting at 8 months, Liza's mum started to leave me with her: before then, all three of us attended her playback theatre rehearsals, and Liza usually just slept through in a sling, on me, but as she grew larger and slept less, she started being a distraction to the rehearsals, so, initially every two weeks, we stayed nearby and waited for mum to have her rehearsal - this would mean a separation of 3 hours
we are now up to more frequent occasions of a few hours, and 5-6-hour occasions about every two weeks
we get through them, Liza and i, but she does cry and miss her mummy occasionally, with which i try to offer full emotional support at all times, and it seems to be working
is that really unhealthy or unnatural or worrying attachment in your view now, at 18 months?
Quote from: Triple Zero on January 13, 2012, 12:27:27 PM
Based on what Reeducation said on showing her the Internet, even if she didn't really understand, how about next time, if you need to work on the computer, you pretend she's helping you? Do your work but also talk, explain what you're doing, etc.
It doesn't need to be real or thorough or complete, but it might even have a positive effect for you, as explaining what you're doing, even to someone who won't understand it, often boosts problem solving skills. Dunno how well that applies for your typing/translation job, but it does work in a lot of situations, not just computer programming (for me).
i am amazed to hear this works for you with programming!! is that the honest truth, really??
i think it wouldn't work with translation (hold two fairly long sentences meaning the same thing through employing rather different syntax, then type one while checking that it does indeed mean the same thing as the sentence to be translated
it might work with image or video or sound editing...
i'll give it a go
Quote from: RWHN on January 13, 2012, 01:44:40 PM
Just don't expose her to singing cat videos on YouTube. My wife made that mistake with my son once. He's just finally gotten over the need to see those things every time someone is on the family computer.
:lulz:
excellent tip, and in good time
i shall be careful
Quote from: holist on January 13, 2012, 05:25:45 PM
had i realised that you would respond with what i perceive as controlled, cold and condescending hostility to what i intended as slight sarcasm, i would have remained entirely formal/friendly
and looking at it now, it is beginning to dawn on me how you may have exactly the opposite perception...
uh-oh
well anyway
Quote from: holist on January 13, 2012, 05:28:11 PM
i am amazed to hear this works for you with programming!! is that the honest truth, really??
Well, not with kids (since usually I'm actually explaining computer stuff to them with the goal that they do understand it :) ) but in general, yes, when I'm really stuck with a problem, it helps to talk and explain what I'm doing even if the other person doesn't really understand it. It just organizes your thoughts, I suppose.
12-18 months is a pretty common age for separation anxiety to kick into high gear. It's a minor miracle she didn't throw a screaming wobbler when your wife left. Luckily, within the next 6 months or so she will also develop a firm grasp on object permanence, which means you will be able to tell her that Mommy is coming back soon, which will ease her anxiety and clinginess.
Babies that age can usually deal with almost anything except for being completely ignored in favor of absolutely nothing, which is what the computer looks like to them. You would probably have better (if limited) luck sitting down and reading a book, if you give her a book with which to mimic the turning of pages.
As they say, parenting IS a full-time job. If it were that easy to get work done when you have a toddler around the house, being a single parent would be a piece of cake. I wouldn't expect to be able to get much, if any, work done outside of naptime when you're alone with her until she's around three, and there is (IME) no chance of being able to pull off even a half-time workload with her at home and no other caregiver until she's six.
You have three other kids, right? Is this the first time you've noticed this? Were you working outside of the house with the older ones when they were this age?
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2012, 04:08:17 AM
12-18 months is a pretty common age for separation anxiety to kick into high gear. It's a minor miracle she didn't throw a screaming wobbler when your wife left.
actually, at the risk of sounding smug, i think it is actually a straightforward consequence of her having the good graces to be born into a family of 5 sibling and a pair of fairly old parents who have raised several children before her and thought long and hard about how to do that best
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2012, 04:08:17 AM
Luckily, within the next 6 months or so she will also develop a firm grasp on object permanence
a thing of the past, that
she has such a firm grasp on object permanence that she spends a considerable amount of time searching for objects that have been hidden from her (there are few such, they include my phone, my wallet and her mother's new wallet - she got the old one)
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2012, 04:08:17 AM
, which means you will be able to tell her that Mommy is coming back soon, which will ease her anxiety and clinginess.
i think she is perfectly capable of understandint that mummy is coming back soon, only she does grow desperate about this being the case when her preferred state of affairs would be for mummy to come back immediately, as in now
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2012, 04:08:17 AM
Babies that age can usually deal with almost anything except for being completely ignored in favor of absolutely nothing, which is what the computer looks like to them. You would probably have better (if limited) luck sitting down and reading a book, if you give her a book with which to mimic the turning of pages.
my novel observations, which are gaining ongoing confirmation, suggest that reading a book doesn't count (of course reading the same book, together, is fine for a while, depending on the book)
it seems that repetitive, fairly observable movement, on the other hand, like grating a carrot, sweeping a floor, etc. do count
which is why i have this sneaking suspicion that "letting primary caregiver do some work even when i'm nervous and a bit lonely" may be deeper-wired and not simply acquired after birth
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2012, 04:08:17 AM
As they say, parenting IS a full-time job. If it were that easy to get work done when you have a toddler around the house, being a single parent would be a piece of cake. I wouldn't expect to be able to get much, if any, work done outside of naptime when you're alone with her until she's around three, and there is (IME) no chance of being able to pull off even a half-time workload with her at home and no other caregiver until she's six.
no quibbles with that at all, i agree
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2012, 04:08:17 AM
You have three other kids, right? Is this the first time you've noticed this? Were you working outside of the house with the older ones when they were this age?
no, but around the time they were this age, i was renovating various houses, operating a wood-burning stove, and taking care of (rather incompetently) a very large garden, growing food and stuff
and, again, in confirmation of my fledgling theory, i seem to remember that while it was just as impossible to do my work on the computer as it seems to be now,
from around the age of 8 months to 1 year and upwards, they were already quite happy to potter around in the garden close by to where i was working when i was actually doing that kind of physical work
see what i mean?
Fuck, you're an insufferably smug little shit, aren't you? If you already know everything, why do you lower yourself to posting at all?
I won't bother trying to talk to you again.
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2012, 04:29:20 PM
Fuck, you're an insufferably smug little shit, aren't you? If you already know everything, why do you lower yourself to posting at all?
I won't bother trying to talk to you again.
i don't like you either
Quote from: holist on January 14, 2012, 08:45:03 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2012, 04:29:20 PM
Fuck, you're an insufferably smug little shit, aren't you? If you already know everything, why do you lower yourself to posting at all?
I won't bother trying to talk to you again.
i don't like you either
but i attribute it to communication breakdown
there's a good chance we'd actually get along if we met
though who knows
Quote from: holist on January 14, 2012, 08:45:03 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2012, 04:29:20 PM
Fuck, you're an insufferably smug little shit, aren't you? If you already know everything, why do you lower yourself to posting at all?
I won't bother trying to talk to you again.
i don't like you either
:lulz: Who else have I heard that from?
Oh, I remember: nobody that matters.
Object Permanence, dumbshit is an actual psychology term. It means when you walk out of the room, she still has a clear, unbreakable image in her head of you and sense that you are still connected. Nigel was trying to teach you something.
Little girls with underdeveloped sense of Object Permanence become fucked up little teenagers. You've seen them: they bifurcate off into two types:
1. the ones who cry and wheedle and whine and feel empty the moment their boyfriends walk out of the room
2. the ones who fuck the entire football team the moment their boyfriends walk out of the room.
Object Permanence is a convenient thing for you to establish in your chirren because it means the moment you walk out of the room, she won't feel like no one cares or is looking if she sets the house on fire or fucks the entire football team.
Ass.