Yesterday, on a forum that is entirely populated by my close friends, I made a somewhat flippant comment about how Woot had an iPad for $459, and how I was bummed that I couldn't quite justify buying one for school. I had no idea how controversial this comment would turn out to be.
One friend said "why the hell would one *need* an ipad for school? that's ridiculous."
I said "I don't need one, that's why I said I couldn't justify buying it, but a lot of students buy them as an affordable alternative to notebook computers."
He then made a comment about how he gets annoyed by Apple cultists who have to have the latest version of every new gadget (not relevant to my situation), and another friend mentioned that you can get a Windows laptop for pretty cheap. Yet another person jumped in with "Don't buy anything for school; technology won't make you a better student, and at some point you'll probably have to use a website or software in college and I can guarantee that it won't be compatible with a tablet or even a Mac". He also said "The largest technological change in education has been online courses; I took half of mine on an old desktop". (He was an accounting major.)
Another student who has an iPad explained what she liked about it, what she uses it for, and said that so far it's been compatible with everything at her school (same school I'm transferring to, similar program) and got, essentially, called stupid.
I commented that it seems arrogant to me for anyone outside of their program to tell a student what tools will and won't be useful for them, and in response was told (by a former art student who dropped out about ten years ago) "It's not arrogant, it's called "advice".
Since I wasn't really expecting, when I made my original comment, to be informed about what I do or don't need, it took me a bit aback that people had such strong opinions about it. (I was also taken a bit aback by the fact of having so many friends who seem to think I'm too stupid to figure out what I need for myself, or ask for advice if I need it.)
However, now I'm curious; since there are a lot of current and recent students here, I would like to get your input on the usefulness of having a notebook or tablet computer. To me, the use seems completely obvious; however, evidently quite a few people just don't see it at all. Opinions?
My opinion, as a lifelong user of Apple products ("before it was cool," if you will), is that the Cult of AppleHate is as fanatical, if not far more so, than the Cult of Apple. If Apple products sucked, I would stop using them and not shed a single tear.
From this account, it seems more like your friends are more interested in appearing edgy and smarter-than-thou than in actually providing helpful input.
Everyone I know who has an iPad claims to get lots of use out of it and seems to enjoy the device. Of course, the same can be said for everyone I know who has a netbook.
Yeah, I was a little surprised by the implication that I'm an Apple cultist or that I rush out to buy the latest Apple products. I don't have the financial resources to be an Apple cultist, and it would be pretty irresponsible of me to spend my money on fun gadgets instead of, say, the electric bill.
I do have a couple of friends who do that, but they're software developers who write Apple programs so it seems justified.
I know that I could buy a Netbook for about the same price as an iPad, and that's certainly a possibility. I am a little leery of super-cheap notebooks though, as I have gone that route before and barely got two years use out of it, as opposed to the 5+ years I normally get from an Apple computer. Plus, my desktop computer is a Mac, and to me it makes very little sense to buy a propane appliance when you already have natural gas, you know? Especially because they crippled cross-platform networking in the latest version of Windows.
But that's a digression... I think that portable computers are incredibly useful for college students, and am a little baffled by why anyone would think otherwise, let alone vehemently argue against purchasing one. I mean, they aren't necessary, but something that allows you to record lectures and do research wherever you go is pretty handy, IMO.
As much as I am otherwise a full-fledged member of the Cult of AppleHate, even I want an iPad. And I also try not to be an arrogant annoying prick who feels the need to tell other people that they should hate Apple.
Well, I find that I have little need for any more than just a regular home computer for my studies. I am a high performing student, I've made the deans list each semester I have attended classes, I maintain a 3.7ish GPA with little effort, and I never carried a computer with me to school (well, not for anything school related, anyhow.)
This may be more of an indicator, however, of my personality and learning style than of the usefulness of said technology. I do not feel that having any type of tablet computer would noticeably enrich my educational processes, though, I can see it's usefulness and I wouldn't mind owning one, but I would likely get most use out of it in non-academic areas.
My final thought would be that, while potentially useful, such a thing would not be necessary for success.
I am baffled by the fact that so many people seem to think that the statement "it would be useful" = "it is necessary". What's the deal with that?
I imagine their usefulness depends a great deal not only on your learning style, but also on what you're studying. For instance, I have a hard time imagining what use my accountant friend would have had for one in his classes, but on the other hand, my biologist friend uses hers all the time, and law student friend says that Macbooks are a ubiquitous tool in his school. It would serve no purpose for my math class, but be totally handy for my sociology class. It would also be nice to have my textbooks on it instead of carrying them around getting them ruined in the rain.
Quote from: Nigel on February 05, 2012, 05:51:40 PM
I am baffled by the fact that so many people seem to think that the statement "it would be useful" = "it is necessary". What's the deal with that?
I imagine their usefulness depends a great deal not only on your learning style, but also on what you're studying. For instance, I have a hard time imagining what use my accountant friend would have had for one in his classes, but on the other hand, my biologist friend uses hers all the time, and law student friend says that Macbooks are a ubiquitous tool in his school. It would serve no purpose for my math class, but be totally handy for my sociology class. It would also be nice to have my textbooks on it instead of carrying them around getting them ruined in the rain.
I didn't mean to make the indication that useful=necessary. Thing is, I don't need one, but I see where it would have it's uses. I'm in full agreement that subjects of study would have an impact on the usefulness of any type of study aid. It seems to me that you would find it useful, so, I would say grab one if you find it's a justifiable purchase.
iPads are a huge potential source of distraction, which could be a problem if you're thinking about using them for school. That's really the only criticism I have for them, though. Netbooks are not a great idea because the keyboard is a lot smaller than a standard keyboard, but still works basically the same. That means either you're going to have 8 million typos when writing on the netbook, or you get used to that keyboard and fuck up every time you type on a full size keyboard. The iPad's on screen keyboard is so different from a normal keyboard that it doesn't really occupy the same brainspace as your normal typing skills (at least in my experience). It's also a lot lighter and easier to carry around than a laptop, and the battery life is pretty awesome.
My kids get a lot out of it as a learning tool. I was a little freaked out when I found out they'd gotten a frog dissection app on there, but they've definitely learned as much from that as they would have doing a dissection in school, and they can go back to it as many times as they want without the whole "amphibian murder" aspect.
Quote from: Cuddlefish on February 05, 2012, 05:57:29 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 05, 2012, 05:51:40 PM
I am baffled by the fact that so many people seem to think that the statement "it would be useful" = "it is necessary". What's the deal with that?
I imagine their usefulness depends a great deal not only on your learning style, but also on what you're studying. For instance, I have a hard time imagining what use my accountant friend would have had for one in his classes, but on the other hand, my biologist friend uses hers all the time, and law student friend says that Macbooks are a ubiquitous tool in his school. It would serve no purpose for my math class, but be totally handy for my sociology class. It would also be nice to have my textbooks on it instead of carrying them around getting them ruined in the rain.
I didn't mean to make the indication that useful=necessary. Thing is, I don't need one, but I see where it would have it's uses. I'm in full agreement that subjects of study would have an impact on the usefulness of any type of study aid. It seems to me that you would find it useful, so, I would say grab one if you find it's a justifiable purchase.
At some point I will be able to justify either a notebook or an iPad, but I can't yet (which is why I didn't buy that screaming deal on Woot).
But yeah, one of the things that was mystifying me about the whole conversation on my board was that an accountant who graduated in Maryland two years ago, and a guy who went to art school twelve years ago in Rhode Island, seemed to think that the fact that they hadn't found a portable computer useful in their studies was somehow proof that nobody finds them useful anywhere. :?
Quote from: Queen_Gogira on February 05, 2012, 06:09:45 PM
iPads are a huge potential source of distraction, which could be a problem if you're thinking about using them for school. That's really the only criticism I have for them, though. Netbooks are not a great idea because the keyboard is a lot smaller than a standard keyboard, but still works basically the same. That means either you're going to have 8 million typos when writing on the netbook, or you get used to that keyboard and fuck up every time you type on a full size keyboard. The iPad's on screen keyboard is so different from a normal keyboard that it doesn't really occupy the same brainspace as your normal typing skills (at least in my experience). It's also a lot lighter and easier to carry around than a laptop, and the battery life is pretty awesome.
My kids get a lot out of it as a learning tool. I was a little freaked out when I found out they'd gotten a frog dissection app on there, but they've definitely learned as much from that as they would have doing a dissection in school, and they can go back to it as many times as they want without the whole "amphibian murder" aspect.
There's a guy who sits next to me in math who is always fiddling with his iPad and it annoys me. I am not in school to laugh at funny pictures on the Internet, thanks! Also, I wonder if it occurs to him that maybe he makes stupid mistakes on tests because he's always rushing through them so he can fiddle with his toy.
The keypad issue is one that I've been wondering about. I had more or less concluded that I don't want a netbook because of the tiny keyboard, but was wondering how the ipad stacks up. One of my friends (who doesn't have one) seems convinced that it would be useless for writing papers, but another friend (who does have one) uses hers to write papers and likes it. Plus, the whole electronic textbook thing... it seems like more and more textbooks are available in electronic format, and that could really take some weight off my back.
Quote from: Nigel on February 05, 2012, 06:32:12 PMThere's a guy who sits next to me in math who is always fiddling with his iPad and it annoys me. I am not in school to laugh at funny pictures on the Internet, thanks! Also, I wonder if it occurs to him that maybe he makes stupid mistakes on tests because he's always rushing through them so he can fiddle with his toy.
The keypad issue is one that I've been wondering about. I had more or less concluded that I don't want a netbook because of the tiny keyboard, but was wondering how the ipad stacks up. One of my friends (who doesn't have one) seems convinced that it would be useless for writing papers, but another friend (who does have one) uses hers to write papers and likes it. Plus, the whole electronic textbook thing... it seems like more and more textbooks are available in electronic format, and that could really take some weight off my back.
If you're thinking about writing papers on it, I would add the cost of a keyboard to your calculations. I don't mind the on screen thing, but I couldn't write anything more than a page or so on it without getting really frustrated. You can always go without for a month or two and see if it's comfortable enough for you.
I have a leather case for my android tablet that comes with a USB-powered keboard built in, as well as a stand that folds out to prop the screen up. I imagine they must make something similar for the iPad.
Also, the swype app is your friend, for taking quick notes.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on February 05, 2012, 06:43:29 PM
I have a leather case for my android tablet that comes with a USB-powered keboard built in, as well as a stand that folds out to prop the screen up. I imagine they must make something similar for the iPad.
Also, the swype app is your friend, for taking quick notes.
They've got one of those, but it has the same small keyboard problem as a netbook.
Quote from: Queen_Gogira on February 05, 2012, 06:40:44 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 05, 2012, 06:32:12 PMThere's a guy who sits next to me in math who is always fiddling with his iPad and it annoys me. I am not in school to laugh at funny pictures on the Internet, thanks! Also, I wonder if it occurs to him that maybe he makes stupid mistakes on tests because he's always rushing through them so he can fiddle with his toy.
The keypad issue is one that I've been wondering about. I had more or less concluded that I don't want a netbook because of the tiny keyboard, but was wondering how the ipad stacks up. One of my friends (who doesn't have one) seems convinced that it would be useless for writing papers, but another friend (who does have one) uses hers to write papers and likes it. Plus, the whole electronic textbook thing... it seems like more and more textbooks are available in electronic format, and that could really take some weight off my back.
If you're thinking about writing papers on it, I would add the cost of a keyboard to your calculations. I don't mind the on screen thing, but I couldn't write anything more than a page or so on it without getting really frustrated. You can always go without for a month or two and see if it's comfortable enough for you.
I use a Mac at home, along with accompanying USB keyboard (which cost about $12).
To clarify, this thread is not about shopping for a portable computing device. I'm not buying one right now or even probably within the next year. Nor are the pros and cons of each brand/variation relevant, because obviously people will have different wants and needs.
This thread is about this:
QuoteI would like to get your input on the usefulness of having a notebook or tablet computer. To me, the use seems completely obvious; however, evidently quite a few people just don't see it at all. Opinions?
Having just been more or less totally scoffed at (on my own board) for even pondering whether a portable computing device would be a useful addition for my academic work, I was wondering whether finding the idea utterly laughable is a popular conclusion among other college-goers. I am particularly interested in the opinions of people who are currently in school or very recently graduated, because of how rapidly the use of computers in universities has changed in just a few years. Input/observation from people who are not in school are also welcome, just potentially less directly relevant.
A tablet wont allow you to type fast enough if taking notes in lectures. A notebook would work better.
It will work just fine with any web based applications. In fact it's a really good platform for reading notes (but not adding them).
It is unlikely to work with any desktop applications you might need. Not really applicable unless you are in software or engineering.
You are very much correct in saying the price does not justify it, 400+ makes it a luxuary piece instead of a tool. 200 MAX is all I'd part with if buying for classes.
There are some very obvious exceptions and it is completely prejudiced of someone to make those assumptions: If you were studying computing and taking mobile apps or doing a project in multimedia it is entirely possible that this would be a necessity as a testing platform.
People who Kneejerk about apple are exactly as bad as people who don't shut up about the merits of apple, they are people who hold strong options about recreational electronic devices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanker).
Quote from: Faust on February 05, 2012, 07:28:32 PM
A tablet wont allow you to type fast enough if taking notes in lectures. A notebook would work better.
It will work just fine with any web based applications. In fact it's a really good platform for reading notes (but not adding them).
It is unlikely to work with any desktop applications you might need. Not really applicable unless you are in software or engineering.
You are very much correct in saying the price does not justify it, 400+ makes it a luxuary piece instead of a tool. 200 MAX is all I'd part with if buying for classes.
There are some very obvious exceptions and it is completely prejudiced of someone to make those assumptions: If you were studying computing and taking mobile apps or doing a project in multimedia it is entirely possible that this would be a necessity as a testing platform.
People who Kneejerk about apple are exactly as bad as people who don't shut up about the merits of apple, they are people who hold strong options about recreational electronic devices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanker).
This. Especially the last bit. But I'd totally agree with the rest. Ipad= shiny toy. Notebook or netbook or similar = useful tool.
Quote from: Faust on February 05, 2012, 07:28:32 PM
A tablet wont allow you to type fast enough if taking notes in lectures. A notebook would work better.
It will work just fine with any web based applications. In fact it's a really good platform for reading notes (but not adding them).
It is unlikely to work with any desktop applications you might need. Not really applicable unless you are in software or engineering.
You are very much correct in saying the price does not justify it, 400+ makes it a luxuary piece instead of a tool. 200 MAX is all I'd part with if buying for classes.
There are some very obvious exceptions and it is completely prejudiced of someone to make those assumptions: If you were studying computing and taking mobile apps or doing a project in multimedia it is entirely possible that this would be a necessity as a testing platform.
People who Kneejerk about apple are exactly as bad as people who don't shut up about the merits of apple, they are people who hold strong options about recreational electronic devices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanker).
LOL about that last bit! Totally true.
Again, though this thread is
not about tablet vs. notebook or platforms or anything like that. The question was:
QuoteI would like to get your input on the usefulness of having a notebook or tablet computer. To me, the use seems completely obvious; however, evidently quite a few people just don't see it at all. Opinions?
Reading it again, I can see where the wording might have led people to believe that I am asking about the usefulness of having a notebook vs. a tablet, so in order to avoid the conversation about which is better, because I think that depends a lot on the user and what they need out of it, I will reword it as:
QuoteI would like to get your input on the usefulness of having a small portable computer while pursuing an education, for use both in and outside of classes. To me, the use seems completely obvious; however, evidently quite a few people just don't see it at all. Opinions?
The reason I ask is because several people on another board have pooh-poohed the idea that they are useful for people in college at all, presumably based on the fact that they didn't use one while in school. My mind boggled a little at the idea of anyone thinking that a book-sized portable computer
wouldn't be useful for students in this day and age, so I wanted to see what the students and recent students here think.
I use an iPod. I also use pen and paper making massive word-image montages. Both work for me.
I'm not studying per se at the moment, but since I lost my job due to my being on sick leave for over a year, I have been sent on various short courses lately. My notebook has come in incredibly handy.
Note taking is a breeze, and far, far better than using a pen and paper (my handwriting looks like a doctor's prescription).
So my answer would be yes. They are very, very useful.
I had a small netbook that I took to class... For about three weeks. The only thing I found myself using it for was sneaking here or onto Facebook when the lectures got dull. Yeah, I can take notes on it... but I take them faster on paper, including added small diagrams, which I couldn't easily do in the word processing program.
I suppose it'd pretty much depend on what you're studying... but it didn't do a lot for me.
I have one and I love it for school. Less shit for me to lug around and I also link to relevant websites in my notes, which I find really useful.
Also, Art Student's opinion is a) antiquated and b) I don't think most college art classes need notes the same way let's say a biology class does.
I can see the usefulness of them, but I've never really used them, even when I did have a laptop I mainly just left it at home. In lectures I always take notes on paper, but then again my topics are very math intensive, so I have to write down a lot of equations, which are a pain in the ass on computers. When I do want to do some research/write a paper at uni I mainly go to the library, or the the physics department. But they have lots of computers there, if they didn't have as many computers I probably would have gotten a laptop to take to uni.
Oh, and that said I also do use my netbook occasionally when I'm on the train off to a different city, mainly for reading my teachers' online lecture notes.
Quote from: Nigel on February 05, 2012, 05:51:40 PM
It would also be nice to have my textbooks on it instead of carrying them around getting them ruined in the rain.
I got a Kindle for that, this year, uni has started back yet though, so I haven't really looked too much into textbooks yet. Also, that said a kindle vs an iPad would depend on your type of textbooks, over the past 4 years 90% of my textbooks were black and white, but other subjects may use much more colour, for which an iPad would be much better. (just an aside that)
Apples new iBook2 program looks good for that as well:
http://www.planetinsane.com/apple-offers-new-digital-textbooks-with-ibooks-2/2627183/
I meant to mention earlier that if you think the primary use is going to be for textbooks rather than note-taking, A Nook Color Tablet or Kindle Fire might be worth looking into as they're much cheaper than an iPad and can do many of the same things.
Plus if you have a Nook we can lend each other books for free.
In my experience, portable computers are extremely useful in college. Before I could afford my netbook, I used my cheap(ish) Nokia C3 phone (It has a physical keyboard, Wi-Fi, and not much else) for googling and wolfram-alpha-ing a lot.
I'm studying Software Engineering, so naturally I would have eventually bought a netbook because I don't like the computers in the computer labs and laptops are too heavy for my needs. But even a cheap smartphone or netbook or whatever can be very valuable not necessarily as a substitute for books, paper notebooks and all that, but rather as a complement to them.
QuoteI would like to get your input on the usefulness of having a small portable computer while pursuing an education, for use both in and outside of classes. To me, the use seems completely obvious; however, evidently quite a few people just don't see it at all. Opinions?
Is it useful? Yes, without question. When I was in college myself (until about 2005-2007 depending on how you count), laptops were too expensive and bulky, they really took off becoming most useful and popular after that.
If I would go to college today, I would definitely use one. Is it necessary? I don't know [actually, college worked fine before everyone used laptops, so that means no it's not necessary
per se] but these days I don't know any student without a laptop, even if it's an older bulkier model that you don't want to bring every day, the possibility of having the option of bringing a portable computing device is just too good to pass up. I suppose especially when cooperating with fellow students.
Recently I had some (formal) meetings with students. They write the minutes on a laptop or netbook. It makes sense, you can do a quick reformat/checkup afterwards and email it around and you're done. Most people type faster than they write. At the last meeting a girl used pen and paper, which caused her to be unable to pay as much attention when writing and vice versa, I don't think these minutes will be as good as the previous ones. But I might be biased because the previous ones used colours for everybody's name and they gave me
ORANGE and that means automatic bonus points obviously.
Also gotta agree with Faust, I don't think a tablet would be
as useful as a netbook or laptop, for the simple reason that a tablet is mostly an output device, and not as easy to use as an input device for taking notes, writing reports, preparing presentations and making exercises.
Still, would a tablet be useful? Yes. Maybe not as much that you would take it with you to uni every day, but at least in the sense that you can download study material to it (the slides of the class you just went to, the exams of previous years, etc) and comfortably study it on the couch without having to print it.
I suppose the only students here that own a tablet are the ones that can afford it as a luxury item
in addition to having a laptop or a netbook, because for a student, even if you (or your parents) can afford an iPad or other tablet, you're going to make sure you have a proper laptop or netbook first, simply for the input capability. That said, that's not many students, or at least not in the social circles I am familiar with.
Thinking about it, I can come up with a few reasons for your friends odd knee-jerk reaction:
- your older friends might think that since they didn't need a laptop/netbook/tablet when they went to college, nobody should need anything but the giant wooden abacus they used, which they could only access after a 35 mile hike, barefoot through the snow, uphill both ways.
- some of them might really want to own an iPad but they can't afford one so they reasoned why they really don't need one, and these reasons should of course apply to everybody
- some of them may confuse "if I had one would it be useful for college" (yes) with "given that you don't have one now, would it be a good idea to acquire one specifically for college purposes" (probably not). this one I can really understand now btw, having written all of the above, even knowing that you're interested in the former, not the latter, it's pretty hard to keep those two questions apart, answering only one and not the other, in fact I feel like it's a pretty artificial constraint on a natural flow of discussion (which does not excuse some of your friends' reactions btw).
- because fuck you their evil stepmother tried to kill them with a poisoned Apple that's why.
Oh, also I forgot to add before, that even discounting the equations problem, I never wanted to take my old laptop to lectures anyway because of my note taking style. When I take notes it isn't just one line after another, I often put asides off in corners, draw lots of arrows, and use sub points, which is possible on a laptop, but more difficult.
I do not personally use any such device for largely the same reasons as you, Nigel, but yes, I am of the opinion that a portable computer would be a very useful tool 90% of the time, at least.
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on February 06, 2012, 01:01:41 AM
In my experience, portable computers are extremely useful in college. Before I could afford my netbook, I used my cheap(ish) Nokia C3 phone (It has a physical keyboard, Wi-Fi, and not much else) for googling and wolfram-alpha-ing a lot.
I'm studying Software Engineering, so naturally I would have eventually bought a netbook because I don't like the computers in the computer labs and laptops are too heavy for my needs. But even a cheap smartphone or netbook or whatever can be very valuable not necessarily as a substitute for books, paper notebooks and all that, but rather as a complement to them.
The old original Droids go for as little as $30 on ebay. It can do internet over wi-fi, and has a physical keyboard. You could probably write a paper on it if you had to, but I wouldn't recommend it.
I didn't find a laptop or similar that useful, for lectures certainly, and to a lesser degree, in seminars as well.
In lectures, it is just as easy to take notes. So long as you're comfortable with lots of paper around the place and moderately organised (one notebook for each class etc) it's no better or worse than a computer, IMO.
In seminars equally, computers are only of use if you are doing a presentation - a video or slideshow always goes down well. However, if you're mostly discussing something, or working from handouts, then no, not really needed at all.
Outside of a classroom, I would consider a computer a necessity for organising papers, research uses, word processing and so on, but of course that is pretty obvious. Also for accessing uploaded class material on the University network.
I did go to a very old-fashioned University, so my opinion may not be the mainstream. I can see such devices being useful, but not necessarily any more useful than alternative tools.
i use the fuck out of my netbook and my iPhone at school! all my notes are typed up (i'm pretty sure i can get way better WPM on the keyboard than i could w/ pen & paper -- but it does lead to me typing things up verbatim rather than condensing). also, our school computers are pretty shitty, and I tether using my iPhone so i can get internet. i get emails on my phone too, so when a teacher sends out emails with work in i get those quickly.
PLUS, it gives me something to do when i'm bored. i'm typing this right now instead of writing the introduction to an essay. :lol:
i don't have a tablet, so i can't really discuss how useful those are -- i could only parrot the views of others in this thread. one of the kids in my class used to bring in an iPad and the notes he'd type using the on-screen keyboard were flimsy at best. some other dude has the Blackberry tablet, and again i just don't think the notes applications/text entry and such are advanced enough to take a serious amount of notes, really (although i'd love to be proved wrong on that)
I'm going to be receiving an iPad for work for this new federal grant I'm coordinating starting next week. Supposedly I need this to make my life easier. That's what my director told me anyway, but I think it's basically just a ploy so he can get one as well. I suppose it will be handy when I'm away and I need to check e-mails. It will be a lot easier to whip out that small thing as opposed to my huge lap-top.
Yes, a portable computing device is useful for academic studies.
But, IMO, it's not useful during real-time class work.
My strategy was to write everything down by hand during classes (everything, not just what I thought I'd need to remember), and then copy that onto my computer when I got back to my room after class. It not only drilled the knowledge into my head, it made for an excellent study guide when exams rolled around.
Of course, this isn't the "tell Nigel how to study" thread, so I apologize if it seems that way.
*Publisher hat*
Ipads and tablets are going to be in many classrooms in the next 5 years, possibly all classrooms in the next 10 years.
Several countries are working on getting ipads for all their students. Thailand (if I recall correctly.. may have been another asian country.. sorry, my notes from that meeting are spotty) just released their plan to give an ipad to all students by 2015. Likewise there are several districts in the US that are going down that track.
Textbook Publishers look at the ipad and salivate. Physical book sales have been flat for the last three years. Ebook sales are up 300%. School boards with cramped budgets know that in the long run, buying an ebook reader is a little cheaper than buying 4 or 5 textbooks per student every few years.
There's a race right now to see who can create the best content delivery platform for the tablet. All the publishing companies were both freaked out and excited two weeks ago when Apple announced (http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/01/19/live-from-apples-education-event/) it was entering the game. One of the publishers I work for said that Apple is now our "frenemy"... "we love them because they produce the hardware we're developing content for... but now we're competing with them too."
The book series I'm working on right now is pretty interesting... Usually, when we publish a book series, priority 1 is the student book. The next priorities are the teacher's guide, workbooks, teacher's resources, etc, and the website. The companion website for a book contains a lot of "extras" -- assignments, projects, quizzes that teachers can assign, links to approved websites about the topic, and other extras. It's basically something we do because the marketing department tells us we need it. The digital end of things has always been tacked on; we don't really think about it until after the book is done.
But things are different now...
THIS series is the first one we've ever done in which the digital product is fully integrated with the book. The teacher can't teach this course without one of those fancy digital projectors. Each page of the [digital] book has pop-ups that you can click on that have examples, diagrams, extra questions, activities, etc. We are telling our editors to design 16 inches of content per page (as opposed to 12). Students will have a physical book, but about 1/3rd of the content will be online. From here on out, this is the way it's going to be done.
The publishers keep saying things like, "We're not at the point where there's an ipad on any desk ... yet. We'll see what happens in the next five years."
Cram, is it really that focused on the iPad in particular? They're not considering other tablets?
Because that IS scary. I don't care if that makes me an Apple hater or not, IMO any OS is pretty much as good as the next if you know how to work itm, BUT it is VERY important to keep the market level and open for Free and Open Source software. After some recent developments, I found I actually feel really strong about this, Richard Stallman is right. It pretty much is the only REAL problem I have with Apple, and Google Android is not much better even though the Android OS is technically Open Source, you can't compile and install it [a possibly modified version such as CyanogenMod] on your device because you need to HACK your OWN device (voiding the warranty) to gain full control over it.
If it weren't for that, I'd probably really like Apple, because it's pretty good otherwise.
One solution would be if some really Open/Free tablet appeared on the market that would be really good. Because I'm not seeing that happening very soon, the other possibility is to keep the market diverse so that applications need to be kept cross-compatible (we can DO this now, we got the technology and knowledge, this has been a major part of IT research for decades, the consumer would benefit greatly but market forces THROW this away) and people can really pick and choose what device they choose to use, be it open or closed or shiny or cheap.
(http://i.imgur.com/dQHJ1.jpg) | | If you can type without looking at your hands then you can free up your eyes for images/diagrams/etc. When I take notes with my laptop I easily generate a few pages of single spaced writing much faster than by hand. I also google things that are mentioned during lectures to see if things check out and whatnot. All the online courses I've done were based on a very old-fashioned, almost rudimentary web design—either from cheapness or compatibility purposes I'm not sure which. There's a lot of variables to consider with this sort of thing. People get so focused on the THING and not how it fits into people's lives.
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Quote from: Triple Zero on February 06, 2012, 02:59:20 PM
Cram, is it really that focused on the iPad in particular? They're not considering other tablets?
I can't speak with too much authority on that, but the publishers I work for seem to use the word iPad when they mean Tablet. The reason they love the ipad so much is apple's app store. In 2010, the iphone app store did more business than the
entire English As a Second Language
industry. So the publishers immediately vomited on their dead-tree format publishing model and began cramping their brains to figure out how they can get a slice of the app store money.
tl;dr version of the story, I think they prefer ipad because Apple has monetized it very successfully.
Pretty much every education system in Maine that has had any kind of program getting technology in the hands of kids has been using Apple products. Maine has a laptop program where every kid in a certain grade, I think it's 7th grade, gets a laptop. They are all Apple's. My local school district just started a program where every kid in Kindergarten gets an iPad. I think it speaks to Apple's ability to make products that translate very well to these kinds of programs. I don't know if it's just that their products are more intuitive for kids, or if it's developing good marketing strategies to appeal to school districts, or more likely both.
Probably marketing strategies because they're strictly more expensive than equivalent products of other brands. You do see this reflected in quality of hardware and sleekness of design, so you do get your money's worth, but it's very much a luxury decision IMO, like buying certain name-brand clothing (which has better quality stitching, generally looks nicer and has a prominent logo for everyone to see) versus buying plain stuff at the H&M (crappy quality, looks well enough and you can actually find shit without a logo or meaningless typography like DOCK #54 URBAN PILOT WEAR, the latter which pisses me off almost more than a big brand logo). Except that the price-quality difference is not as pronounced with computing hardware, a brand name shirt can easily cost 5-10x an equiv H&M shirt, but if you compare the cheapest tablet with the iPad you get 2.5x price difference at most, I think.
Anyway, I digress, point is if it weren't for marketing, and the school had to set it up themselves (instead of Apple sponsoring it) they would naturally have chosen the cheaper non-luxury version, because while the iPad is good, it's not so good that there's no other choice.
Then again I have an odd perspective on this because I know Apple is WAY bigger in the US than it is here.
Quote from: Nigel on February 05, 2012, 05:18:06 PM
I know that I could buy a Netbook for about the same price as an iPad, and that's certainly a possibility. I am a little leery of super-cheap notebooks though, as I have gone that route before and barely got two years use out of it, as opposed to the 5+ years I normally get from an Apple computer. Plus, my desktop computer is a Mac, and to me it makes very little sense to buy a propane appliance when you already have natural gas, you know? Especially because they crippled cross-platform networking in the latest version of Windows.
Just as an anecdote, I have to say that my Acer is giving as good as I've got to throw at it. Roger I'm sure can tell you how hard I am on my things. I mean, ask him how many times last month he had to tell me off for leaving blood all over the bathroom after dorking around with some cute boy I picked up at the bar! I've had this thing for nearly two years; it's been dropped on hard tile at least twice (and crushed the lid a bit), had energy drinks spilled on it, hauled it around in a backpack full of hard textbooks (admittedly, I'm a bit more careful there), left it on for days on end to save my spot on some page on the internet, dropped it some more, left it in positions that destroyed the power cord's ability to work right without hours of finagling, and it is still going strong, even if the keys are a bit sticky.
http://crookedtimber.org/2012/01/20/apple-for-the-teacher/
Quote from: Nigel on February 05, 2012, 04:51:59 PM
I commented that it seems arrogant to me for anyone outside of their program to tell a student what tools will and won't be useful for them, and in response was told (by a former art student who dropped out about ten years ago) "It's not arrogant, it's called "advice".
Roger's response to a fucked up comment like that: "This isn't a punch in the bits. It's called an 'adjustment'."
I feel that the reaction is just part of a consumer backlash. People are tired of shiny new ways to play Angry Birds. It's just that though, a reaction.
I feel that gadgets like the ones being discussed are classroom and prof dependent. If the prof has a really engaging teaching style, where they actually expect some kind of back and forth or participation (rare but I get them), then gadgets aren't helpful.
If they're lecturers who just talk and pass out work, then I like to have wiki, google, or wolfram alpha by my side.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 06, 2012, 06:04:41 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 05, 2012, 04:51:59 PM
I commented that it seems arrogant to me for anyone outside of their program to tell a student what tools will and won't be useful for them, and in response was told (by a former art student who dropped out about ten years ago) "It's not arrogant, it's called "advice".
Roger's response to a fucked up comment like that: "This isn't a punch in the bits. It's called an 'adjustment'."
I like this, and am totally going to use it. :lol:
Quote from: Jasper on February 06, 2012, 06:07:45 PM
I feel that the reaction is just part of a consumer backlash. People are tired of shiny new ways to play Angry Birds. It's just that though, a reaction.
I feel that gadgets like the ones being discussed are classroom and prof dependent. If the prof has a really engaging teaching style, where they actually expect some kind of back and forth or participation (rare but I get them), then gadgets aren't helpful.
If they're lecturers who just talk and pass out work, then I like to have wiki, google, or wolfram alpha by my side.
I'm not even thinking about in-class, necessarily. It would be really handy to be able to do research or work on projects between classes, or even to be able to go to certain types of social events and still be able to work on a project, or to have the capability of going to an SE's house or away to the coast for a weekend and still getting homework done.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on February 05, 2012, 11:54:49 PM
I have one and I love it for school. Less shit for me to lug around and I also link to relevant websites in my notes, which I find really useful.
Also, Art Student's opinion is a) antiquated and b) I don't think most college art classes need notes the same way let's say a biology class does.
Yeah, I've noticed that the people who say they use their devices all the time are a biology student, a law student, and an anatomy/physiology student. It really really depends on what the coursework is.
Quote from: Rumckle on February 06, 2012, 12:08:25 AM
I can see the usefulness of them, but I've never really used them, even when I did have a laptop I mainly just left it at home. In lectures I always take notes on paper, but then again my topics are very math intensive, so I have to write down a lot of equations, which are a pain in the ass on computers. When I do want to do some research/write a paper at uni I mainly go to the library, or the the physics department. But they have lots of computers there, if they didn't have as many computers I probably would have gotten a laptop to take to uni.
Oh, and that said I also do use my netbook occasionally when I'm on the train off to a different city, mainly for reading my teachers' online lecture notes.
Quote from: Nigel on February 05, 2012, 05:51:40 PM
It would also be nice to have my textbooks on it instead of carrying them around getting them ruined in the rain.
I got a Kindle for that, this year, uni has started back yet though, so I haven't really looked too much into textbooks yet. Also, that said a kindle vs an iPad would depend on your type of textbooks, over the past 4 years 90% of my textbooks were black and white, but other subjects may use much more colour, for which an iPad would be much better. (just an aside that)
Apples new iBook2 program looks good for that as well:
http://www.planetinsane.com/apple-offers-new-digital-textbooks-with-ibooks-2/2627183/
None of my textbooks are available in Kindle format, and every time I've done a conversion the formatting went to shit, but it is really nice that e-textbooks are becoming so popular.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on February 06, 2012, 12:57:50 AM
I meant to mention earlier that if you think the primary use is going to be for textbooks rather than note-taking, A Nook Color Tablet or Kindle Fire might be worth looking into as they're much cheaper than an iPad and can do many of the same things.
Plus if you have a Nook we can lend each other books for free.
A lot of what I'd be using it for is reading papers, organizing projects, and taking notes outside of class. Possibly for recording lectures and watching videos, as well. If I was going to buy one, which I'm not.
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 06, 2012, 01:24:49 AM
Thinking about it, I can come up with a few reasons for your friends odd knee-jerk reaction:
- your older friends might think that since they didn't need a laptop/netbook/tablet when they went to college, nobody should need anything but the giant wooden abacus they used, which they could only access after a 35 mile hike, barefoot through the snow, uphill both ways.
This totally made me LOL! :lol:
Quote from: Nigel on February 06, 2012, 08:24:53 PM
Quote from: Jasper on February 06, 2012, 06:07:45 PM
I feel that the reaction is just part of a consumer backlash. People are tired of shiny new ways to play Angry Birds. It's just that though, a reaction.
I feel that gadgets like the ones being discussed are classroom and prof dependent. If the prof has a really engaging teaching style, where they actually expect some kind of back and forth or participation (rare but I get them), then gadgets aren't helpful.
If they're lecturers who just talk and pass out work, then I like to have wiki, google, or wolfram alpha by my side.
I'm not even thinking about in-class, necessarily. It would be really handy to be able to do research or work on projects between classes, or even to be able to go to certain types of social events and still be able to work on a project, or to have the capability of going to an SE's house or away to the coast for a weekend and still getting homework done.
Oh, plus, if I needed info from a physical book in the library, I would be able to take a picture of the pages I needed. And I could install dropbox and have access to all my documents from anywhere.
Hah, now I'm thinking about my archivist friend, and how handy it would have been for her to have one when she was at Oxford.
I think you've already made a decision, Nigel.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on February 06, 2012, 08:48:56 PM
I think you've already made a decision, Nigel.
Yes, I made my decision long before starting this thread. This thread is not about me shopping for a product, at all; I already know that I'm not buying one because for me right now the benefits do not justify the expense.
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on February 06, 2012, 05:45:25 PMJust as an anecdote, I have to say that my Acer is giving as good as I've got to throw at it. Roger I'm sure can tell you how hard I am on my things. I mean, ask him how many times last month he had to tell me off for leaving blood all over the bathroom after dorking around with some cute boy I picked up at the bar! I've had this thing for nearly two years; it's been dropped on hard tile at least twice (and crushed the lid a bit), had energy drinks spilled on it, hauled it around in a backpack full of hard textbooks (admittedly, I'm a bit more careful there), left it on for days on end to save my spot on some page on the internet, dropped it some more, left it in positions that destroyed the power cord's ability to work right without hours of finagling, and it is still going strong, even if the keys are a bit sticky.
Is it a netbook? Well this advice might be useful even if it's a larger laptop.
Seems as if you're giving your Acer about a similar hard time as I do with my netbook. Did, actually, because right now it's so wonky I don't really take it anywhere anymore. If I would start about all the things that are wrong and broken with it (mechanical/electrical all of them, I'm a software guy so I keep that aspect very shiny) this post would get really long :) I fixed most of it with tape and one clothing-peg :) End result is I can't move it around much or shit comes loose. It's had a good three (?) years though, it's been my main computer since my old one died in the fire of that terrible February.
Have to admit, to my shame, that most of the times I dropped it and some seemingly-insignificant bit of plastic broke off (or something inside got loose) was when I was a teensy bit too inebriated :$
Anyway, what I
wish I'd have done before I broke it too much, was to pre-emptively duct-tape any bits that can come loose. I'm assuming you don't regularly take it apart (not a good idea to do too often with laptops anyhow), maybe do it one time to clean the dust from the insides, and then tape over all the edges and seams and whatnot (not the ventilation holes and the sockets, obviously!) until it's super sturdy! Also tape the battery in place (one of the things that broke were the little hooks that clicked it in place). Good proper duct tape will last a really long time, plus it provides cushioning at the edges and corners in case it ever drops again.
I'm going to have to order a new netbook THIS WEEK though, because last week something fucked up that causes me to disconnect from the internet whenever I move it, and that's way too annoying to put off for much longer, I should have gotten a new one a long time ago. I have the money set apart it's just that I get all flustered by the options, dunno which one to get, though I spotted a nice model today. Except the screen is glossy and reviews say the mouse buttons on the touchpad need to be pressed hard and click loudly. But there's only so many models available on the market at some point in time. I'll have to make a decision tomorrow, I suppose.
Quote from: Jasper on February 06, 2012, 06:07:45 PMIf they're lecturers who just talk and pass out work, then I like to have wiki, google, or wolfram alpha by my side.
Curious, what sort of queries do you use WA for?
The technology behind it is fairly awesome, but apart from a few things I *know* it does, it hardly ever gives me an answer to an average query of the type I think WA should know. IMO it's a bit like Google Calculator that can do *slightly* more.
And Google Calculator gives *one* answer, which is usually the one you want. WA gives a whole page/table of answers from which you have to scan and find the one you need.
Things I use WA for:
- calculations with dates and seconds (<my birthdate> plus one billion seconds = in a couple of months!) though Google Calc can do that too.
- symbolic math calculations such as simplifying polynomials and taking derivatives. Because I don't have Mathematica.
- demographic and statistics info on countries and things--this is usually where it fails for me. sometimes with separate queries I find that it *does* have the data to answer my question, but I can't get it to present it to me in a single query.
- things about numbers, such as factorizing, being primes, or other properties.
- and that one time to find out where Phobos-Grunt was about to crash, because I know it knows (current, historical and future) locations of satellites and airplanes and everything.
what do you use it for? (if it's a lot, maybe start a new thread)
As far as note taking in class - there are a ton of touch-based note-taking apps (so you can still do diagrams, etc). I don't find them that useful for heavy notetaking, which might be because I don't have a stylus and the precision is therefore around the level of finger-painting. The senior designer at my company (who has much more experience with drawing on a tablet-y thing than me) loves it for notes, though.
Touch typing is a PITA, though. There's no touch feedback when you hit a key, so you can't type by muscle memory - eventually, your fingers will slide to one way or the other because you can't feel the center or the edges of the buttons. Between that and Apple's moronic autocorrect, you have to keep pretty close visual attention to what you're typing.
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 06, 2012, 10:47:43 PM
Curious, what sort of queries do you use WA for?
I really like WA, I use it when I really get stuck on some difficult integrals. Also it is fun (and relatively easy) to compare various demographic statistics.
(also did you see the TedTalk by the creator? It was pretty cool)
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 06, 2012, 10:38:43 PM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on February 06, 2012, 05:45:25 PMJust as an anecdote, I have to say that my Acer is giving as good as I've got to throw at it. Roger I'm sure can tell you how hard I am on my things. I mean, ask him how many times last month he had to tell me off for leaving blood all over the bathroom after dorking around with some cute boy I picked up at the bar! I've had this thing for nearly two years; it's been dropped on hard tile at least twice (and crushed the lid a bit), had energy drinks spilled on it, hauled it around in a backpack full of hard textbooks (admittedly, I'm a bit more careful there), left it on for days on end to save my spot on some page on the internet, dropped it some more, left it in positions that destroyed the power cord's ability to work right without hours of finagling, and it is still going strong, even if the keys are a bit sticky.
Is it a netbook? Well this advice might be useful even if it's a larger laptop.
Seems as if you're giving your Acer about a similar hard time as I do with my netbook. Did, actually, because right now it's so wonky I don't really take it anywhere anymore. If I would start about all the things that are wrong and broken with it (mechanical/electrical all of them, I'm a software guy so I keep that aspect very shiny) this post would get really long :) I fixed most of it with tape and one clothing-peg :) End result is I can't move it around much or shit comes loose. It's had a good three (?) years though, it's been my main computer since my old one died in the fire of that terrible February.
Have to admit, to my shame, that most of the times I dropped it and some seemingly-insignificant bit of plastic broke off (or something inside got loose) was when I was a teensy bit too inebriated :$
Anyway, what I wish I'd have done before I broke it too much, was to pre-emptively duct-tape any bits that can come loose. I'm assuming you don't regularly take it apart (not a good idea to do too often with laptops anyhow), maybe do it one time to clean the dust from the insides, and then tape over all the edges and seams and whatnot (not the ventilation holes and the sockets, obviously!) until it's super sturdy! Also tape the battery in place (one of the things that broke were the little hooks that clicked it in place). Good proper duct tape will last a really long time, plus it provides cushioning at the edges and corners in case it ever drops again.
I'm going to have to order a new netbook THIS WEEK though, because last week something fucked up that causes me to disconnect from the internet whenever I move it, and that's way too annoying to put off for much longer, I should have gotten a new one a long time ago. I have the money set apart it's just that I get all flustered by the options, dunno which one to get, though I spotted a nice model today. Except the screen is glossy and reviews say the mouse buttons on the touchpad need to be pressed hard and click loudly. But there's only so many models available on the market at some point in time. I'll have to make a decision tomorrow, I suppose.
Yeah, its a netbook. I love it. I don't take it apart at all, because I wouldn't know how to put it back together. I wouldnt know where to start taking it apart, either. :p I might end up doing the duct tape thing, if I ever drop it again and it survives, but I like having it just be purple and black.
Hope you have good luck finding another one quickly. :)
I believe they have purple and black duct tape too :P
I don't like taking it apart for the same reasons, but one time it was necessary cause somehow a screw on the inside got loose and got into the fan and first made an awful noise, then jammed the fan, and then you notice how hot these babies can actually get if the fan's not working!
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 07, 2012, 07:57:21 AM
I believe they have purple and black duct tape too :P
I don't like taking it apart for the same reasons, but one time it was necessary cause somehow a screw on the inside got loose and got into the fan and first made an awful noise, then jammed the fan, and then you notice how hot these babies can actually get if the fan's not working!
Oh! Well that sucks. Did your fan get permanently borked?
No that's why I had to open it up, to discover and remove the screw. The fan works again, though it randomly makes a rattling noise as if it's slightly loose (but it's not, I checked) and then if you bash the netbook for a bit the rattling stops. Not recommended.
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 07, 2012, 08:25:24 AM
No that's why I had to open it up, to discover and remove the screw. The fan works again, though it randomly makes a rattling noise as if it's slightly loose (but it's not, I checked) and then if you bash the netbook for a bit the rattling stops. Not recommended.
:lulz:
I had an iPad when I was at Limited Brands. It was great for some things, but never replaced the need for a laptop. Sharing documents/drawings/pdf's at a meeting, drawing quick diagrams, checking email, IM's etc. but it really seemed like a phone that was too big or a laptop that was too small :D
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on February 07, 2012, 10:03:18 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 07, 2012, 08:25:24 AM
No that's why I had to open it up, to discover and remove the screw. The fan works again, though it randomly makes a rattling noise as if it's slightly loose (but it's not, I checked) and then if you bash the netbook for a bit the rattling stops. Not recommended.
:lulz:
Just covering my ass, sometimes people assume that I know what I'm doing when it comes to computers :lol:
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 07, 2012, 11:43:13 AM
I had an iPad when I was at Limited Brands. It was great for some things, but never replaced the need for a laptop. Sharing documents/drawings/pdf's at a meeting, drawing quick diagrams, checking email, IM's etc. but it really seemed like a phone that was too big or a laptop that was too small :D
I have to agree with you and Eric S Raymond on that. I don't actually see the purpose envisaged for the iPad, what it's particular niche and role is. A phone can do other things, especially a smartphone, but we know what it's main purpose is - a highly portable verbal communication device. Equally, we know what laptops and ebook readers are used for (porn and checking emails while pretending to read Charles Dickens). iPads, while possibly very useful in a number of roles, do not seem to supersede any of these products in their primary role, or offer a new role for their use.
The only real use I've found for my tablet is to watch movies or play games when I'm flying (which I do fairly often).
Then the Nook Color Tablet came out, and now my tablet is pretty much a paperweight.